Said no to another recycle

[Depression = 72% of members]

At the end of April 2017, my uBPDh came to me and told me, "you have 'biblical grounds to ask for divorce" and that he would agree to it. I said that would probably be best because he wasn't really doing the things that I had asked him to do. So, about 6 weeks went by and I wasn't seeing progress. I asked about his plans, and he had decided not to go through with it. (recycle 1) In October, he had a friend who was going to 'help' him get a divorce because of the friend's concerns about his emotional state. We had a family crisis, and h decided that he didn't want the friend pressuring and controlling. (recycle 2)

This weekend, h decided to leave his church position (which has been an unpleasant place lately), and he told me that he was going to move out and start the divorce process. By Monday, he was waffling again and wanting me to tell him what to do. I repeated that he hasn't really worked on the areas that he needs to work on (like mutually agreeing and committing to a household budget - he's had 3 years and various churches have identified this as a problem as well).

So this morning, I said that the move out and divorce cycle was not tolerable for me. He still needs to work on the areas because they are important for his own growth. I can't do the cycle again. He said it was really hard for him - tears and everything. I just listened. He asked if he could stay if he worked on the things. I said I couldn't tolerate it again.

He is going to look at apartments today and come up with a plan, and he knows that he will need a counselor to go through this with him. I'm not going to go back on the emotional rollercoaster and continue on as before. He doesn't know how he is going to pay for this plan either - we can hardly pay our bills currently. He's also recently done some self injury, so I know that he is having a hard time managing his emotions.

I figure that this is a serious thing to say - and it cannot be treated as an empty threat.

[empath]

At the end of April 2017, my uBPDh came to me and told me, "you have 'biblical grounds to ask for divorce" and that he would agree to it. I said that would probably be best because he wasn't really doing the things that I had asked him to do. So, about 6 weeks went by and I wasn't seeing progress. I asked about his plans, and he had decided not to go through with it. (recycle 1) In October, he had a friend who was going to 'help' him get a divorce because of the friend's concerns about his emotional state. We had a family crisis, and h decided that he didn't want the friend pressuring and controlling. (recycle 2)

This weekend, h decided to leave his church position (which has been an unpleasant place lately), and he told me that he was going to move out and start the divorce process. By Monday, he was waffling again and wanting me to tell him what to do. I repeated that he hasn't really worked on the areas that he needs to work on (like mutually agreeing and committing to a household budget - he's had 3 years and various churches have identified this as a problem as well).

So this morning, I said that the move out and divorce cycle was not tolerable for me. He still needs to work on the areas because they are important for his own growth. I can't do the cycle again. He said it was really hard for him - tears and everything. I just listened. He asked if he could stay if he worked on the things. I said I couldn't tolerate it again.

He is going to look at apartments today and come up with a plan, and he knows that he will need a counselor to go through this with him. I'm not going to go back on the emotional rollercoaster and continue on as before. He doesn't know how he is going to pay for this plan either - we can hardly pay our bills currently. He's also recently done some self injury, so I know that he is having a hard time managing his emotions.

I figure that this is a serious thing to say - and it cannot be treated as an empty threat.

[Speck]

Hello, empath:

I'm so sorry to hear that you are needing to go down this road. Divorce an incredibly tough thing to bear, and I personally know how you feel. I'm tripping down this road myself.

You are sounding very strong in your conviction that you are done, and I hear on that score as well.

Just wanted to stop by and give you a hug: 

Keep writing if it helps!


-Speck

[spero]

At the end of April 2017, my uBPDh came to me and told me, "you have 'biblical grounds to ask for divorce" and that he would agree to it. I said that would probably be best because he wasn't really doing the things that I had asked him to do.

This kind of piqued my interest, if you're willing to share i wonder what was the idea of "biblical grounds"... and then again, there is a need to qualify what is defined as biblical grounds, but it seems like your husband has started or intends to, which also makes me curious about what he meant by having biblical grounds for divorce.

He said it was really hard for him - tears and everything. I just listened. He asked if he could stay if he worked on the things. I said I couldn't tolerate it again.

Wow, it seems like "divorce" or the realisation of what is up and coming has become overwhelming for him, it may trigger coping mechanisms which you've seem to mentioned self harming.

He is going to look at apartments today and come up with a plan, and he knows that he will need a counselor to go through this with him. I'm not going to go back on the emotional rollercoaster and continue on as before. He doesn't know how he is going to pay for this plan either - we can hardly pay our bills currently. He's also recently done some self injury, so I know that he is having a hard time managing his emotions.

Takecare Empath, and i hope you'll be able to sort out your bills and finances. I'm sure apart from having to deal with this, finances will naturally come as another source of stress for you.

Spero.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey empath, I admire your resolve to get off the roller coaster.  Those w/BPD can be quite persuasive, not to mention manipulative, yet you seem resistant to this sort of arm twisting.  Good for you!  Keep the focus on what is right for you, I suggest, and keep up the good work!

LuckyJim

[empath]

Thank you for the encouragement! Writing does help me process the things that are happening. In the past few years, I've seen more than my share of folks who were manipulative and have read a lot about it, so I can spot it a lot better than I did before. I also have plenty of friends who are not that way - the difference is night and day. In the end, my h was trying for a "good" connection with me emotionally, and it seemed he felt bad every time he talked with me. I had detached to keep my emotional sanity.

This kind of piqued my interest, if you're willing to share i wonder what was the idea of "biblical grounds"...

Sure, the biblical grounds were abusive patterns of behavior and communication. In his mind, he has a hard time reconciling the idea that he is a 'good person' with the fact that he did certain things because people who do those things are not 'good people', he thinks they are 'monsters'.

Interestingly, he was serving at a church under a narcissistic pastor who was abusive to the congregation. The church managed to get approval to mutually strive to 'end his employment contract'. The pastor has been resisting the process because narcissists never think they did anything wrong. My h realized that the pastor was doing the same things that my h has done in our marriage and has even described the church situation as the church wanted a divorce from their pastor. He doesn't want to be like the pastor, so at the moment, my h is being very agreeable and trying to do it in the best way possible. He even has read books on how to divorce with minimal relationship damage.

We'll see if this holds up... .

[empath]

Today, h called (while I was driving) and told me that he had met with a L and learned about his liabilities and obligations and he wanted to go over things with me. Needless to say, I was shocked and confused. He said that he was intending to file for divorce - a couple of weeks ago he said that he thought that divorce was a mortal sin.

The last conversations that we had were ones in which he said moving out would give us space to work on our issues and get to a better relationship.

[formflier]

   

Have you asked him... .point blank, why not meet with a T instead of an L? 

There may be more truth in the answer than you want.  I get the vibe that he understands he is "way off track" and doesn't have the slightest idea how "to get back".  Or... .perhaps... .he does have an idea and for whatever reason, that pathway is intolerable.

Which would you guess it is?

I'm so sorry you are going through this.  Good job standing your ground.

FF

[spero]

Hello Empath,

How are you doing? i'm going to collate my responses due to my own time constrains, so i hope you don't mind that.

Sure, the biblical grounds were abusive patterns of behavior and communication. In his mind, he has a hard time reconciling the idea that he is a 'good person' with the fact that he did certain things because people who do those things are not 'good people', he thinks they are 'monsters'.

I actually find this paradigm dichotomised thinking (black and white) common as a symptom of individuals struggling with BPD, i quote this from psychology today, "Sometimes people with BPD view themselves as fundamentally bad or unworthy. They may feel bored, empty, or unfairly misunderstood or mistreated, and they have little idea who they are."

Here is the reference to the full article https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/borderline-personality-disorder

There dichotomisation of people, seeing other individual and themselves as either good or bad. This very lens in which your husband views others is also applied to himself. He would therefore struggle or become confused when a "good person" does something "bad" which is a worldview outside his own. The only "rational" flow of thought would be since this "good" person has done something "bad" he/she is now considered a bad person... since good people don't do bad things. This further extrapolates and manifests itself when individuals with BPD starts splitting a "good" person "bad" or to be painted "black".

A person struggling with BPD would struggle with others disagreeing with what they "feel" or "think". The smallest slight would not be seen as a disagreement regarding the context or conversation, but the rejection of who they are entirely. This notion of being seen as rejected as a "full person" is much motivated by shame and guilt, and in many cases goes back to abuse and trauma back into childhood. A side question, Empath, has your husband had a tumultuous childhood?

He doesn't want to be like the pastor, so at the moment, my h is being very agreeable and trying to do it in the best way possible. He even has read books on how to divorce with minimal relationship damage.

Wow, this is rather difficult to reconcile... .trying to get a divorce with minimal relationship damage. It would be unkind of me to say this, but i doubt you would be able to have "minimal" relationship damage looking at the grounds of divorce. As much as we want to believe such a thing exists... divorce as that stands, remains either the 2nd or 3rd in the ranking of stressful life events. So, in that context, i don't know if its possible to have a divorce with minimal relationship damage.

Now, having said that, empath, and within the context of short-term vs long-term damage toward yourself, perhaps you've thought about it and processed it and see divorce as painful as it is and as stressful as it is, would be more beneficial in the long term aspects of your emotional and physical well being, then you'd have your answer.

I am not so much concerned about your husband's relationship with his pastor. I mean, god bless that person. More importantly, i think the struggle for individuals with BPD as a condition would be their close relationships. I would make a generalised statement that they do function okay at work, and in that aspect, your husbands relationship with his pastor is secondary.

Today, h called (while I was driving) and told me that he had met with a L and learned about his liabilities and obligations and he wanted to go over things with me. Needless to say, I was shocked and confused. He said that he was intending to file for divorce - a couple of weeks ago he said that he thought that divorce was a mortal sin.  The last conversations that we had were ones in which he said moving out would give us space to work on our issues and get to a better relationship.

It does seem to me that your husband is struggling internally with decision making, having to "want" a divorce but yet going against the grain of his moral thinking. I would echo the same question as "FormFlier", has your husband visited a T yet? The conflict seems obvious enough for me where on one hand he looks like he wants a divorce, and on the other he wants to get better in a relationship?

How is your husband's response toward you at the moment? Is he shutting down? or is he receptive to what you've been saying? The other question would be, are you still willing to walk down that path? Or you are strictly sticking to divorce or would you think about exploring other options? Again, i'm sorry you are going through this right now.

Wishing the best for you,
Spero

[empath]

I get the vibe that he understands he is "way off track" and doesn't have the slightest idea how "to get back".  Or... .perhaps... .he does have an idea and for whatever reason, that pathway is intolerable.

My guess is that he does have an idea, but it would mean admitting that he's one of the monsters. We've talked about the problem that he has with holding his view of himself as a "good person" alongside the fact that he has done some things that he judges to be monstrous.

I think some of the problem is that he can't really describe what is going wrong, so he doesn't know how to ask for help with it. He does have a sense and fear that there is something very, very wrong.

[formflier]

 
Empath,

Again... .sorry things seem to be going weird with your hubby.       

Certainly we can help you sort through this and look for nuance or ways to "nudge" your hubby in a better way.  I don't predict any of that will change the fundamental course that he appears to be on and that you are holding fast too.  Those courses are quite different and I certainly believe I have a decent idea of the history of your story and I can't imagine there is anything missed that would change any advice I have about your "fundamental direction"... .any changes from me are likely just nuance.

Fundamental problems

1.  This is about God and Biblical matters, he was a minister, yet seems to be unable to grasp that the redemption of the Gospel actually applies in a practical matter or way to him.  I hope you would agree (broadly speaking) that perhaps the most fundamental message in Christianity is that we will all fall short and the pathway forward from that "fall" is to look to the Cross, seek forgiveness... .accept forgiveness... .and forgive yourself  "Free yourself from the bondage of your sin or wrongdoing... "  

As you and others likely know, I'm on the conservative side of Baptist faith.  I tend to take things "literally".  It just seems simpler that way.  

Yet the longer I live things like this seem more complex and mysterious than ever.  I have no idea how "mental illness" and salvation get sorted out.  Frankly, it's one of many things I'll just leave up to God since it's way above my paygrade.  

But... .if someone is unable to take a look at what they have done... .and be remotely honest about it, I just don't see how they get the rest of the way through "God's plan for redemption".  

While I would certainly endorse your husband going through T and all that, I just can't imagine given his profession and time in it, that having another person explain that to him "snaps him out of it".

Anyway... .what are your thoughts on what I have written so far?  :)oes it seem to capture "where your hubby is at" or "how you see it".  You know him best.  

I have similar struggles with view of my wife.  I'm convinced she has a genuine repentance and salvation story.  Yet later in life... just wacky... wacky things that twist religion beyond any recognition and then "poof" she thinks something else... .then "poof" the weird is back.

It's led me to making some "fundamental" decisions about my marriage and how I will "use" or "relate" to God with her.  For instance... .We are getting close to the one year point since the last time I asked my wife for forgiveness for something... anything.

It honestly wasn't a big deal, and likely wasn't a "sin", but I certainly fell short of my calling as a father and it affected her and the entire family (just kinda ruined the day with my lack of leadership).

Well... .she laughed, used the Lord's name in vain and then went on with this preposterous story about what I was actually asking forgiveness for.  I tried to "confront her Biblically" about it and she insisted she didn't laugh... .and literally wouldn't address the other parts of it one way or another.  Apparently it was just to big of a deal... .to deal with.

So... .since I control me... and only me... .I can make a decision to "not go there" again.  This was kinda a repetitive thing, although this instance was especially shocking.

So... barring something I see as true repentance and change, I don't think I will ever ask forgiveness of my wife again.  That's really sad... but our relationship is much calmer.  It is undeniable that the more "God" I take out of our relationship, the calmer our relationship is.  

Isn't that sad... .but it's also undeniable in my case.  There's no nuance that I know of that can fix this.  She is going one way... and I'm going the other.  

I sorta... .see a similar dynamic in your relationship.  :)o you see it that way?

   

FF

[empath]

Spero,

I'm doing okay. Yesterday, I decided that with the emotions running very high, switching to email communication might be helpful - both for documentation and slowing down the process. He's at least realized that Ls are very expensive and doesn't necessarily want to do that right now. He has also decided that I didn't want anything that he wants out of marriage (which is untrue and I have told him as much - he understood it at the time, but you know how that goes sometimes). The misunderstanding seems to be the cause of this decision.

This notion of being seen as rejected as a "full person" is much motivated by shame and guilt, and in many cases goes back to abuse and trauma back into childhood. A side question, Empath, has your husband had a tumultuous childhood?

Yes. His dad is a ACOA, military vet, and pastor - emotionally unavailable and abusive. Guilt and shame were often used to get him to obey. There were bullying, a suicide attempt, and some other things that happened in his childhood.

So, in that context, i don't know if its possible to have a divorce with minimal relationship damage.

I don't know if that's really possible either. In his brother's divorce, they were living in the same house with brother's affair partner for a while. It seemed like a very slow process that they went through - and I'm not sure that's good either... . 

How is your husband's response toward you at the moment? Is he shutting down? or is he receptive to what you've been saying? The other question would be, are you still willing to walk down that path? Or you are strictly sticking to divorce or would you think about exploring other options? Again, i'm sorry you are going through this right now.

We have emailed back and forth. He seems to have slowed down a bit and seems open - it's easier when he's not being "flooded" with emotions. He was agreeable to changing to email, thought it was a good idea.

He is planning to see a therapist and recognizes that there are certainly significant issues to work on and doesn't know if he can 'fix' the issues (probably not, but there are ways to help manage them).

However, he is separating his finances, and he is our sole source of income at this point. So, the legal options (legal separation or divorce) may be something that I am forced to use.

FF,

I sorta... .see a similar dynamic in your relationship.  Do you see it that way?

I do see the similarities. I think all of us relate to God similarly to how we relate to others we are intimate with. Sometimes, God or more likely religion can be sort of an addictive substance. I see that with my fil's family. Anyway, h was seeing a Christian therapist for a while, but at the end, he didn't think it really helped him too much and was rather turned off of the whole Christian counseling thing. He likes meditation from buddhism, so he's been practicing mindfulness. (small steps) Right now, he's really angry with God for not rescuing him... .  I don't share too much about my own religious life because, well, it's taken the wrong way a lot of the time.

My h grew up in a fundamentalist baptist home, so there's a lot of emphasis on behaving right with the expectation that things will turn out well.

I'm not sure how God works out the whole mental issues, especially cluster B personality issues, with spiritual growth either. It's interesting that there are a higher than 'normal' percentage of people in the pastorate with narcissistic tendencies. They tend to have stunted spiritual growth as well.

[formflier]

So... .he is sole source of income.  And... .do I understand right that he quit his job?   

What is the plan there... or do I understand it wrong?

FF

[empath]

He has multiple jobs, all part time, some contract design work. The church job was a part time one about 400-500 per month. He also sent over today that budget and financial information. (one of the issues very practically that I have needed him to do)

He has shared about how he has processed with God, realizing that his vision of 3 years ago of walking through the valley of the shadow of death was the death of our marriage. He has resisted it, but now, he kind of has to do it. He asked me to pray for him.

He says he will cooperate with and comply with me and realizes he has a moral obligation to provide for d13 and me.

[empath]

I should also say that he has decided that we have separate checking accounts.

[empath]

H is planning to move into an apartment by himself this weekend, so he wants to come and get some things from our house. I'm trying to find out more information about this and how to best approach it.

[empath]

Today, I was able to talk with my husband's friend who he was staying with while he found his new apartment. This friend seems to be under the impression that I haven't been willing to do the things that I had agreed to, like seeking marriage counseling. He was saying that my husband said that I didn't want to do it. I told him that I didn't know what my h said and that I had actively tried to find marriage counseling. I said that I was very glad that h was seeing a counselor now because he was in a pretty bad place.

I also talked with my d13 this afternoon, and she described me to her friend as being happier and more calm about our home life right now. That felt really good to have her recognize that about how things are.

Then, this evening, h came over to get some mail and asked how things were going. I said they weren't going well because all this has been disruptive to my life and the logistics have been difficult to deal with - especially not having money available and his being physically in a different apartment when I needed him to get our daughter to school when I am scheduled to work as he promised before I took the job.

[Speck]

Hello again, empath:

It's great to hear an update from you.

Sounds like things are in a blah state, but you are much more at peace now that you're separated?

I'm glad to hear that you appear calmer and happier to your daughter. Write when you can.


-Speck

[empath]

Oh, good grief... .  H sent me an email after yesterday's visit and discussion. It was full of projection, accusations, black and white thinking (always, never, every time, etc) - said I was codependent, playing the victim, not taking responsibility, setting him up, blaming him, etc... .  All because he didn't remember something that I had told him.

I so wanted to use that email as an example of what our problem is. Jeez... .  I was going through it thinking that all of Gottman's 4 horsemen are there and many examples of verbal abuse.

I responded nicely - validated and described my perspective and my need for his involvement.

I am glad that my d13 has had spring break this week; that has given us a bit of a break in the normal routines of school and things. I've been able to talk with many friends who are great listeners and don't really offer advice, only support and what I ask for.


Oh, I forgot. On Sunday, h was going to be moving the things from our house to his apartment while I was at church. He had previously said that he wasn't going back to his old church. I have been warmly invited to his old church, and I have many friends there. So, I went there on Sunday.

Well, h got done early with moving his things, came to his old church, and saw my car in the parking lot. He came in and sat in the row a little bit down from me. It was very awkward and weird - he also held my hand during a prayer, just because it was open and up. Thankfully, my d was at our normal church; she said she would have cried. Then, I heard someone comment that it was good to see us worshiping together. I wanted to say this was not supposed to happen - he didn't stick to his plan.

[formflier]

Well, h got done early with moving his things, came to his old church, and saw my car in the parking lot. He came in and sat in the row a little bit down from me. It was very awkward and weird - he also held my hand during a prayer, just because it was open and up. Thankfully, my d was at our normal church; she said she would have cried. Then, I heard someone comment that it was good to see us worshiping together. I wanted to say this was not supposed to happen - he didn't stick to his plan.

Empath,

This struck me as planned... .

He knows you didn't want to go back.  Just by happenstance... you get a warm invite.  Just by happenstance he either finishes moving early... .or skips it and comes to church...

And gets a "photo-op" that all of his friends and people are talking about.

And... we know he is telling others "it's her"

I hope I'm wrong... .but... .there was a plan... .

FF

[empath]

I hope I'm wrong... .but... .there was a plan... .

Well, the invitation didn't come from h; it was someone that he wasn't aware of. BUT, he did come in after seeing my car in the parking lot.

My friends who were there and know the situation were sad for me... .  It was interesting to sit in the back with folks who knew what was going on - exchanging looks. The other part of this was that the sermon was about pride, the need to be right and the preacher's own divorce, and the need for relationship with God. I'm not sure that h even thought too much about it.

Of course, his friends thought it was very special and sweet and thought that I might have 'surprised' him - not in a good way. Because I'm just such a pain, you know, poor guy.


He sent another email apologizing for his harshness and confusion. He thinks he might need help from his therapist sorting all the emotions and well, forgetfulness out. He feels blamed in our real life conversations and is having difficulty managing his emotions in person; he also isn't sure that he has a good perspective on what is happening.   

At least, he likes my emails. I was just thinking of a time years ago when he was in Europe for work, and his company was sold and his project was scuttled. He wanted to quit right then and there. I had to talk him off the ledge - via IM. That was before I put all the 'issues' together and came up with BPD.

[empath]

One of the things that is really annoying to me right now is how different our perspectives and experiences are in this process. He describes his "new life" and how much better and happier he is. Of course, he has cut most of the relational ties that he had from what I can tell. He was asking me if he could take our daughter out for coffee or a movie, I said she didn't seem ready for that yet. He thought we were all doing better like he is.

I, on the other hand, still have the relationships and normal life that is continuing. There are a lot of people who are just confused by the whole situation and are trying to make sense of it. I can't give a lot of answers either, so I just let it sit with them. I've got some new opportunities that have been in the works for a long time now, and I'm trying not to let this upend all the work that I've done to get to where I am.

I know that he had been in this 'guilt and shame' ocean before he left and wasn't able to get out of it here. I also knew that I was triggering his emotions. Of course, I can't explain all that to people who think that it's just a normal 'marriage' problem. Some of the difficulties that he was having were because I had 'worked on' my part of the problem and stopped enabling and 'helping' him so much. I had boundaries - which were always a problem in his mind. I've been telling him that he needed to work on the real issues that he was having for a few years now, knowing that if he didn't this would be the likely result. I didn't imagine that the church situation would happen and bring him face to face with his own life.

I also know that it is expected in these types of relationships - the rapid moving on with life. It's a bit weird, too, because he is still in contact with folks from his old church - one of them is going to be staying at his apartment.

[empath]

Well, shoot, BPD... .

This past week, I've been trying to reconnect with the church where my h was serving because they have had problems with their pastor and music leader leaving. The church is reeling in the aftermath of the NPD pastor who gutted the finances along with the abusive practices that go along with that. They aren't sure that they will survive right now. The last clergy person standing was also my h's mentor and long time friend.

I was asked to possibly help with the church situation because I was formerly on staff by their supply pastor. I was also concerned about the effects of the staff meetings on my relationship with my h's mentor. So, I went to a study group this week and talked with mentor afterward. He was telling me that I should deal with my unforgiveness and work through my issues with others. He also said that h had said that I hadn't done what I needed to do. I said that I had.

Anyway, as time went on it became apparent that mentor assumes that h's description of my problems are accurate and seemed to get a bit confused when I was saying something different. Mentor decided that he couldn't work with me because of the likelihood that he would say something that either of us had told him to the other and make things worse for us.

I was so excited to be asked to help with the church situation, now, it isn't going to be possible because of h's painting me black to his mentor. I'm also sad because some of the people at that church are good friends who I care a lot about and they really do need help, good help.

[formflier]

Could it at all be possible to ask mentor to bring in hubby and clarify what is and isn't.

If this is a church thing... ."bring in others". 

Big picture:  I was under the impression you had stepped away from this church... .are you happy about getting closer?  Did I miss the impression?

FF

[empath]

Big picture: I was 'invited' to step away from the church and worship somewhere else about 2.5 years ago after the new NPDpastor came on board. I didn't go far though and am still in the same denomination of churches. It was nice to be wanted and seen as someone who could help the congregation through this time. At the same time, I'm not sure that they will actually survive this; it's rather sad.

The church isn't that big, maybe 40 people, and the upper levels of leadership are a bit busy trying to deal with a former pastor uNPD who is making life difficult for them (because the leadership decided that his employment should be ended... . cutting off his n-supply). Poor mentor was the victim of abuse by the former pastor and seems very reluctant to really do much.

I'm okay with staying outside because I have a really good church environment that is supportive and healthy for a change. It would be good if mentor would actually work through the issues that he has, but I don't think he has that much emotional reserves at this time.

Bringing in hubby to clarify might not bring much clarity to the situation - this is the guy who lied to the congregation about wanting to work on our marriage... . 

At least, the mentor printed out a blogpost about the false narratives of abusive people and gave it to some of the people within the congregation.


ETA: I just heard from hubby. I asked about something that he wrote in an email, and he explained. He said that he was pursuing DBT with his therapist!  oh, happy dance... . 

[formflier]

OK... we're on the same page... that's roughly what I remember. 

So... the "inviting" to go somewhere else was really the senior pastor getting rid of someone that didn't "bow down" to him... right?

Now that he is gone... .the congregation is really kinda wandering around, not really sure what the next step is... .likely knowing more about what "they aren't going to do" (no more of that guy we got rid of).

perhaps a bit of a hijack coming... .or asking for other opinions.

I'm still trying to "find my way" with the issue of "bringing more people" in and trying to follow Biblical "truth".  Before I was active in trying to "investigate myself" or "clear myself" or prove my point (with outcomes we can easily guess were not good)

As I've looked at scripture... .what I "see" and "hear" now when I read scripture is that someone that "confronts" me (says something about me that is not true... kinda like your mentor guy) is I make it clear they have not "won me over" (basically saying I see it differently) and I "invite them" to bring others in (assuring them I'm open, interested... .etc etc)

Typically... .the "openness" and the "handing them back responsibility for action" results in them hushing and dropping it.

So... .empath, what I'm asking is... .how do you see my "newer" method lining up with Biblical teaching.

I'm still on my first cup of coffee... .and it's been a BPD morning so... .if it seems like raving lunacy... .please say so.

I appreciate you guys so much... .more later.

FF

[juju2]

e,

Reading your story, you have been through a lot.

It is a great development about h and DBT.

That's a miracle.

A toxic pastor is so destructive.

When I was married, we went to a huge church, 7000, and it was a stressful time, young kids, mine were raised there, and both me and my husb were in service, him music, me childcare.  Because there were so many people, those who were in service were asked to do a lot.  At the time I didn't know how to say no.  Long story short, the church ended up being toxic.  When we started having marital problems, the church said, God hates divorce... .
My impression was, they didn't have time or resources to deal w us and, they didn't want to lose our "services "

that was 18 years ago.  We got divorced, he wouldn't go to MC.

I tried some other churches since then, if my gut tells me caution or some other dysfunction, I can't go there.  won't go to a toxic, needy church.

I pray, meditate, serve others in my community.

As an aside, it turns out my ex spouse has BPD.Very likely, not dx.

His current g/f and i are friends, she is a nurse, has experience w BPD, and she is working on getting him help... .!  Looking back, I knew something was wrong, he doesn't have a lot of the signs, and if he would get a diagnosis, his life would be a lot easier... .  He had the spending, unstable r/s, inability to handle stress.  Multiple jobs.  Ended up just taking side jobs, architectural design, he really didnt know how to do the family thing.  Back then I didn't realize how the church we attended was hurting our family... .

Sorry for this rambling.

My heart goes out to you.

this community is a life saver for me.

Thank you,  j

[Speck]

empath,

I've been following your thread. You have certainly been through quite a bit in a short amount of time!

It's great to hear that your husband is wanting to pursue DBT. Do you wonder at his motivations to do so now? Would his doing so change things for you as far as detaching from the relationship goes?

I look forward to reading your future posts.


-Speck

[empath]

So... the "inviting" to go somewhere else was really the senior pastor getting rid of someone that didn't "bow down" to him... right?

FF, I wasn't okay with his decision to not allow my h to step down from ministry to work on our marriage. Besides which I was a woman in leadership that the congregation liked.

So... .empath, what I'm asking is... .how do you see my "newer" method lining up with Biblical teaching.

It sounds like a good approach to Biblical teaching to me. What I did in this case was to say that I was confused because I hadn't been at the church activities for nearly a year. Then I asked about what he was seeing in my life that would indicate problems... . I also offered to meet with him (since he recommended that I meet with people with whom I have issues) to work through this. He said that he couldn't work with me because of his involvement with my h and shut down email communication.

I figure I did my part to try to be reconciled, so it's no longer my issue.

Sorry about your BPD morning.

[empath]

He had the spending, unstable r/s, inability to handle stress.  Multiple jobs.  Ended up just taking side jobs, architectural design, he really didnt know how to do the family thing.  Back then I didn't realize how the church we attended was hurting our family... .

Sounds a lot like my h. Every few years, he has gone through a period where he quit his regular job and did the freelance design thing (graphic and web design). Spending has always been a problem for him.

Toxic churches can amplify the toxicity in individuals. The good thing about h's former church was that they did something about the pastor. They tried to work it out with him, but he wasn't receptive. Then they took it to a higher level in the denomination. It's sad to see such a good community in such desolation afterwards, though.

[formflier]

I figure I did my part to try to be reconciled, so it's no longer my issue.

Sorry about your BPD morning.

Is it a hijack when I'm asking you off topic questions?  Stick'em up!   

So... .can you give me your opinion on the differences in forgiveness and reconciliation and "forgiveness"?

Does that differ between an individual and and organization (church for example).

FF