Ex Struck S8, Left A Mark, Turned Herself In

[Turkish]

Well,  kind of. 

Our son inadvertently locked them out of their apartment yesterday.  On the way to drive to grandma's house,  or son couldn't stop laughing.  He has ASD1, what they used to call Asperger's.  My ex told him to knock it off but he couldn't.  She reached back with her coffee mug and knocked him on his knee.  He started crying.  It left a mark which looked like a big bite or scratch.  It hurt him to bend his knee. 

She told me this today at lunch.  She made an appointment with the doctor to get him checked out. 

This feels like the time she admitted to the kids' T almost two years ago when she punched her H in front of the kids.  She knew she might get in trouble,  yet admitted it anyway.  Like she felt tremendous guilt and wanted help.  I told her this and she didn't deny it.  She started talking about her childhood.  Her younger sister once told the school that "dad hit my mom." CPS came to the house.  Their mom lied. The family covered it up and the case was closed.  Little wonder the the eldest kids have had trouble over the years,  especially the two girls 

My ex did want help.  She said she was going to go back to her T. It surprised her since she wasn't in a bad mood or depressed.  I said that that was one thing,  but going from zero to 100mph in rage was another thing.  I reminded her of the time I let them S1 fall asleep on my shoulder before bath time.  I walked into the kitchen to tell her,  dreading the reaction,  and after I walked out age slammed the fridge for hard enough to knock the door contents out to make a huge mess on the floor.  I told her it was the only time I was kind of afraid of her.  "You see,  I don't remember that!" she said in frustration,  not denying it. 

She talked about her current failed marriage and that age wasn't "ready." She used the sane excuse about leaving me.  I kept my mouth shut.  Her view of both situations are distorted.  I offered that it would be good to explore this,  especially given our daughter's personality and attitude.  I can see her and her mom coming to physical blows once D his puberty. My ex said that her mom would strike them a lot,  often with objects which would leave marks.  I know she loves her mom,  but she also knows that wasn't right. 

So both S8 and his mom were honest with the doc.  I thought for sure it would be reported.  You can't leave marks in our state.  My ex had asked me to come to the appointment. 

In the parking lot afterwards my ex asked me if I thought the doc was going to report her.  I said that I didn't think so,  our the doc had a good poker face. 

Like the last time,  I've left this in the hands of a mandatory reporter. The T was going to report, but didn't upon consolation with her colleagues and that both of us were in parenting classes and my ex took responsibility.  Part of me believes that if it were me as a man in both cases,  I'd have been reported. But it is what it is and things are how they are. 

This past summer,  my ex got mad at D5 and pinched her leg hard enough to draw blood.  My ex didn't tell me,  the kids did.  When I asked their mom she admitted it.  A pattern here? One offs? At least she trusts me enough to tell me these things.  If they become more frequent,  I'm not sure of what I have to do. 

[SlyQQ]

I rang the dv hotline once Turkish and had a chat to them, they might be able to help you,

It was re my Sd though, after a long chat to them and talking to my other Sd, who was potentially most at danger

i let it rest but if my Sd who was 17 had not said to let it go it would have been different

with younger children it is much harder perhaps a emergency pager or some such,  might be enough to curtail things before they start good luck.

p.s. strangulation is apparently the most alarming behavior.

[formflier]

Turkish,

Hey man!  Solid work moving forward on this, while she was open to do so.  Given your wife's patterns, will she keep "owning" this, or will she "forget" it in a few months.

Is desire to go back to T a radical shift for her?... .I get the vibe that it is.

I'll certainly wait on your answers, but I think as long as she continues on to T (and includes you to an extent) that you are on the right track.

If she decides she wants to "turn around".  You will have hard choices.

Here is the thing... .you have a pattern.  Without intervention, the pattern will likely continue.

FF

[heartandwhole]

Here is the thing... .you have a pattern.  Without intervention, the pattern will likely continue.

I agree with formflier. Things are unlikely to change without intervention. Perhaps if your ex is reported, she'll be motivated/forced to get help.

It sounds like the episodes are few and far between. I think that can make it harder to know what to do about it, because as time passes, we get lulled into thinking that it isn't that bad or things have changed for the better.

Really tough situation to be in, Turkish. In your shoes, I'm sure I'd be asking myself what to do. What does the therapist say?

heartandwhole

[formflier]

Turkish,

Am I correct in remembering that you are physically a rather "imposing figure"? 

For my analogy... I'm going to go with that.

Visualize that you are "following her" to get "healthier" about this issue with reacting to the kids physically. 

I'm sure you will agree that pwBPD on the path to health (even those that are motivated)... .rarely travel in a straight line and many times they want to "go back to what they know" (the dysfunction)

I tend to think you will be ok if you "follow her" in such a way that if she tries to turn around and "run back" she bumps into you.  You don't need to shove her back the other way... .just don't let her go back to dysfunction.

Perhaps that means you have a standoff for a while where it appears "stuck"... .  If stuck I think we use tools to "help her decide" to move forward again.  If she perceives you "shoving" her to health... .I think she will "recoil" from that.

Right now it appears she is moving forward... .count your blessings and follow her.  Yes... blessings... .how many posts on here talk about their pwBPD saying they are going to T?

If she gets "stuck" hopefully we can help you be wise about how long to let that go on before you do more than "block her way back".

Thoughts?

FF

[Turkish]

I'm loathe to go back to my T. The doc didn't report it.  Not sure about my T.

My thoughts are:

1. What's going to do more harm than good.
2. The reverse of 1.

I asked my son the other night if he was OK with mommy.  Was he ever afraid of her?

"Oh no! Mommy's very nice!" Ok then.  That's different than what he said over a year ago,  "I won't marry someone like Mommy because she punched [her husband]."

I can see how he wants to connect with her,  and he's said before he likes my home better because he doesn't get in trouble as much.  I know my ex has an issue with men.  I'm glad she's trying,  but this will become a bigger factor as he starts becoming a man.  Been on that ride with my BPD mother.  Still have the ticket stubs. 

I went through this.  She would dysregulate,  leave me and the kids to go work out our whatever.  She'd return and sometimes apologize, hating herself for acting like she did,  blaming the triggers on her mom,  parents,  childhood.  I need to brush up on how to help the kids realize that they aren't responsible for her feelings,  though they are responsible for their own behaviors. 

They are going on vacation out of state the end of this month for a week.  We'll see how that goes. 

[Harri]

As has been stated, there is a long standing pattern here, including your ex coming to you for guidance and what seems, to me at least, absolution.

The question should be (IMO):  Is this causing harm?

It is.  It has been for a long time.  Nothing has changed for you or your ex.  What makes you think things will change this time around?

[formflier]

Do you and her go to same T?  I was under the impression "she" was saying "she" wanted to  go to T.  I was think you would be somewhat involved in that... .as part of parenting together or something like that.

FF

[Turkish]

 She means the T she's been seeing for years.  It's from the same HMO we both have and they try to shuttle patients into group therapy in most cases.  I paid 100% out of pocket to see my T outside of insurance.  I'll ask her soon if she was able to get an appointment with hers.

Harri, I'm not sure of how to deal with possible consequences here like if it ended up I got the kids more. I think it would have to get bad to get to that point.

[Harri]

Hi T.  I hear you.  The thing is, things are bad now.  Waiting for things to get worse is not the answer IMO.  Your ex may need more parenting classes, therapy, CBT whatever but she needs to learn skills to control her temper.  Yes, physical abuse has 'only happened a handful of times' but your kids have been and still are also being verbally and emotionally abused.  I really like what heartandwhole said about it being difficult to know what to do because the incidents have been so sporadic.

Your ex needs help now that you are not qualified to give.  I am glad you plan to ask her if she talked with her T.  Have you thought what to do if she has not?

[Turkish]

She dropped their martial arts outfits by tonight.  I have the kids for the weekend.  She left some food then criticized me for not making them dinner,  "that's not enough to eat! They eat a lot,  believe me." I steamed them broccoli to go with the spaghetti after she left. It was enough.   S8 didn't even finish his spaghetti but ate the broccoli.  I get wound up about these stupid little criticisms.  She had a work function to go to.  I shuttled her out,  "goodbye!"

I may have an opportunity to ask her Sunday.  I think I need to ask her point blank,  "do you want me to report you the next time?"

I feel kind of trapped.  The ex-laws have forgiven me for reporting the uncle two years ago.  I live in an immigrant community,  and I have few (no)  options for support. I feel isolated. 

[heartandwhole]

I think I need to ask her point blank,  "do you want me to report you the next time?"

That's an interesting way of forming the question. What do you anticipate her response will be?

I feel kind of trapped.  The ex-laws have forgiven me for reporting the uncle two years ago.  I live in an immigrant community,  and I have few (no)  options for support. I feel isolated. 

I'm sorry, Turkish. You are in a difficult position, and I can relate to feeling isolated and unsure about what to do.

heartandwhole

[Turkish]

I think I will ask her point blank. 

D5 wanted to call mommy tonight.  I don't know how it came up,  but the kids said mommy hit them.  I asked them if I hit them.  S8 said,  "maybe once a year. No.  Once every two years." I called.  No answer.  She called back within 15 minutes.  S8 was still awake,  D5 barely.  S8 gushed about how he missed her and loved her and how nice she was,  an interesting juxtaposition to what he just said.  It's hard to put myself in their shoes to understand how they view things at their ages.

[Harri]

Hi Turkish.  What a rough night. 

I feel kind of trapped.  The ex-laws have forgiven me for reporting the uncle two years ago.  I live in an immigrant community,  and I have few (no)  options for support. I feel isolated.

  What are you talking about when you say the ex-laws have forgiven you?  Do you think you did the wrong thing reporting the uncle for molesting your daughter?  Are you still on the fence about whether he actually hurt her or is it something else?

As for support, lets talk about that.  You have a couple close friends, you have people who care about you very much here, you do have a T that you have seen for years even tho you do not want to go back to him right now.  You have friends at work though I would be careful sharing personal stuff there. 

Contact preventchildabuse.org Get information, find support groups in your area but one that you feel a part of.  Drive extra miles to the meetings if needed.  I understand that cultural differences can impact your sense of ease and even make you doubt your own perceptions if certain types of discipline are considered a normal part of a particular culture. 

S8 gushed about how he missed her and loved her and how nice she was,  an interesting juxtaposition to what he just said.  It's hard to put myself in their shoes to understand how they view things at their ages.

When I was 8 I would have gushed about how much I loved and missed my mom.  And my actions would have shown me clinging to her, turning to her for comfort and safety, not wanting to be separated, showing anxiety if I were separated.  The whole time my mother was molesting me, mentally and verbally abusing me and I was terrified of her more often than not.  Yet I loved her dearly.

It is an interesting idea you have about asking your ex her preference (ie do you want me to report it).  Maybe she is trying to use you to do what she can not.  No matter.  You have your own responsibility and choice about reporting her. 

Are you afraid that if you report the physical abuse that you will be cut out of her family's life?   What prompted the comment I first quoted about her family?

[formflier]

Turkish,

I would ask point blank "about this time".  I would not give any indication that "this time" is over. 

"it's a very serious matter".

Big picture:  Stay present... .keep working the problem in front of you.  Next time will iikely take care of itself, if "right now" is handled properly.

Thoughts?

FF

[Turkish]

The line here is between what's unhealthy and what's reportable.  Reporting can't be undone.  My ex talked to the CPS social worker on the phone after I reported the molestation.  I wanted an in person meeting to assess.  Sitting in a room where the SW told me in so many words that they had the power to take our kids if we didn't ensure their safety scared the crap out of me,  and I am normally unflappable in the face of all sorts of weirdness, danger,  and dysfunction. 

I went to pick up the kids this afternoon after I had her watch them for two hours.  They went out to get treats.  When they drove up,  her H stepped out of the car.  He said,  "hey, Turkish." I haven't seen or talked to him in over a year. I said,  "ah look,  'Billy's' back!" Maybe that was rude?

He walked off,  maybe to his car.  My ex the kids and I went into the house.  My ex said,  "where's 'Billy'? You must have scared him off." As I was going into use the facilities,  I said,  "you're the one he should be afraid of,  not me." She did end up getting him arrested  (partly due to his behavior not following police directions after she called the cops on him and his brother.  She treated him like crap,  punched him,  and they both called the cops on each other a year ago last January,  just before she moved out.  I don't get his desire for her still.  Maybe it was the red mirrored lenses in my wrap around Oakleys which scared him off? Am I that mean looking?

So she and I talked about school stuff.  Walking out to the car,  I asked her if she had called her T. The kids were being combative,  so I used that as a segue. She said that she had made an appointment,  but her tone communicated to me "things are ok,  why are you asking this?" I told her what the kids had told me.  She said that sometimes they blew things out of proportion. For example,  our autistic son was saying the eff word the other day.  She told him to stop.  He didn't.  She lightly whapped him on the mouth.  Our son took it as hitting  (well it is) and cried. That isn't abuse in our state,  and I don't necessarily disagree with what she did. I don't need to whap the kids.  My Stentorian voice is enough to get them to knock off their nonsense,  or pointing out logical consequences. Or maybe it's the red Oakleys (my previous lenses were green), but probably not that. 

The context wasn't right to ask "do you want me to report you?" She said that she tells me this stuff because she wants to keep our communication open.  Ok,  fine.  I wouldn't of I were in her shoes.  A former Navy SEAL Vietnam vet  taught me when I was 18, "never volunteer information!" And it stuck with me. 

I'll definitely ask a follow up in a week or two about her T.

Funny,  but the kids mentioned things again tonight.  D5 said that she wanted to stay with me a million days and mommy a thousand.  S8 said if he could,  10 days with mommy and 12 with me.  Then they asked to call their mom despite seeing her this afternoon and going back fire two days tomorrow. 

[Harri]

Hi Turkish.  Yes, reporting can not be undone.  Neither can the effects of physical and emotional abuse.  If the report is unfounded, then fine.  You do not have to tell your ex you reported her. 

The incident that prompted this post is a reportable offense.  Your ex hitting him on the mouth (lightly or not) yesterday is not the issue here.

As a person who has caused bruises and drawn blood on her kids (your words) and was beating up her estranged husband, your ex has no business slapping/lightly hitting the kids.  She is not capable of controlling her temper.

[formflier]

  Sitting in a room where the SW told me in so many words that they had the power to take our kids if we didn't ensure their safety scared the crap out of me,  and I am normally unflappable in the face of all sorts of weirdness, danger,  and dysfunction. 
 

Turkish,

Hey man... .I'm going to be frank with you.  It appears to me your are letting your fear of this cloud your judgment a bit.

My take:  We can't always ensure our kids safety.  Many times things we "try" don't work out... .but the obvious effort is there. 

When CPS (or whatever it is called in your state) decides to take kids (involuntarily) there is usually a determination that the actions that are being taken are unhealthy AND/OR there is nobody taking reasonable action to correct (or get back to healthy... .to say it another way)

So... .in many cases, if they see a caregiver that is trying but misfiring, they will leave the kids and "give guidance". 

I think most of us understand that if they see kids in a dangerous situation and they "perceive" that nobody is taking action... .they "by law" will act.

So... Turkish... what I was trying to suggest in my analogy of "you moving forward" and "not letting her move back" is that you "present" yourself to the world (including CPS if needed) as taking action to move towards healthy choices (I know... very broad term).

So... .if you are moving that way and your wife is moving that way (and being open about it with you... and including you)... .then I'm OK with no reporting (although I wouldn't argue that those who say you should report are wrong... just showing my reasoning).

If you wife is NOT going to allow you to be at first T appointment to discuss "what this is about".

If your wife's attitude is obviously shifting to "this isn't a big deal"... .don't overdo this...

If your wife's actions continue down the same path... .

Then I would come close to... .if not... insist that you report it and/or take some kind of action with the courts.

This is getting long... but an important subject.  I see a difference between pinching out of frustration and "whapping on the mouth" for an effe bomb. 

Although... .I have to admit, I agree your wife has no business doing anything physical... anything... .for discipline.  So I find myself having to be "honest" and say I wouldn't argue with others that might disagree with me and say this "should" be reported.

I'll hush and see what you have to say. 

FF

[Turkish]

So... .if you are moving that way and your wife is moving that way (and being open about it with you... and including you)... .then I'm OK with no reporting (although I wouldn't argue that those who say you should report are wrong... just showing my reasoning).

The question is "what is reportable?"

D5 and I had the flu.  She got sent home today and tested positive for Strep. I probably have it too. It's been a tough two weeks.  My ex and I have tag teamed going to the doctor, picking up meds. I've taken too much time off the past two weeks.  D5 can't go to school again tomorrow.  I took her today and the school called mom to pick her up.  Now they have to send notes to the other parents that a student had Strep 

I like to fancy myself as a single father,  but that is only partially true.  I can't imagine doing this and keeping my job,  which is always under jeopardy.

Are the kids on overt danger? No.  Are they long term at risk emotionally? Probably, but how much is hard to say. 

I don't know what her thoughts are about bringing her H back into their lives after almost a year.  What I can say is that the kids aren't safe if they choose to cohabitate again. Other than the DV, my ex's issue was him not making enough money to be a provider. He's not going to magically making $100k/yr, or even half that,  no matter their MLM scheme, of which they've had years to prove to "get rich quick." She's getting subsidized housing.  I don't think she'll choose to lose that like she did the first time by moving him in.  We live in one of the most expensive places in the country. Renting my own home would be $1000/mo more than my mortgage. 

I might have a chance to talk to her Saturday. I saw her tonight, but she was dropping off S8. She had to go. 

[formflier]

Sorry about the strep and sickness... .that was the story of our February... .just sucks.   

Are the kids on overt danger? 

Turkish... .not "arguing" with you at all.  I totally get the exhaustion and the pragmatism that goes with that as you try to pick your pathway forward. 

Here is my take on this now.  She is playing with fire.  (the physicality with kids).  Sure... people say you will be burned if you play with fire... and you will.

The real (and pragmatic) question... is how bad will your kids be burned?  We simply can't know the future.  If it turns out that a leg pinch and whaps on the mouth are "the worst" it gets... .I think you are on the correct path... .and appear to be thinking correctly.

If it gets worse... .and you actually make a report... .and a child get actually gets hurt (please... everyone... I'm not minimizing what has happened... .minimizing and perspective are different things)... .I know... I know that you will look back and wish you had "moved forward together" with your ex towards dealing with this in T (especially if she is making noise about doing it).

Looking back on my own story arc... .with the knowledge I have now... .I could have been part of turning things earlier.  That "knowledge" influences how I make decisions now... especially when things are "ambiguous".

Turkish... .you are the leader of the family (the pack so to speak) regardless of the legal status of the marriage with your ex... .you are still the leader.  The most gut wrenching part of leadership is decision making "with incomplete information".  A big part of the decision making process is "waiting for more information" or "deciding to decide now... .with what you have"

That's a weighty burden... .and it's yours and yours alone.  At the end of the day, most of my decisions in life (the good and the bad) were "gut calls"... .I just knew... .  Some of that "knowing" was arrived at my my own deliberations, prayer and "decision making process"... .and some of it was life circumstance "jumping over" my values and boundaries into places where there was no nuance... there was only the word "no".

To wrap this up, I'm certainly hoping that I can influence you... .and you can find a way to "deal with" the "physicality" issue before you get to "no". 

You have the tools to do this... .you have the life experience... .and you have your "gut".   


FF

[Harri]

I really like the way FF is thinking about this.  While I tend to go nuclear he seems more reasonable with this issue of physical abuse/discipline.   

Be proactive in ex getting help.  Not sure how to word that without it seeming like an ultimatum though.  Ex was/is concerned with her own behavior.  She does need help.  In the meantime, I would insist that there is no physical discipline given that she can not control herself.  Firm line (in concrete) on this one.

Given the history of DV, how about some agreement about the hubby (ex?) not being there when she has the kids?

Your ex seems pretty receptive to your input and advice which is an angle you can definitely use regarding these issues.  Wording it may be tricky as you don't want to prompt her to do the "now don't tell dad" stuff.

Hope you all are feeling better soon.  Take care.

[Turkish]

I picked them up from the airport last night.  I only briefly interacted with the kids (it was almost 10PM), but it sounds like there were no incidents.  Mommy had them for 5 days on vacation.  

I told my ex that I was taking the kids to see my mom,  after she said,  "where are you taking the kids,  if you don't mind me asking?"

I should have said,  "to the mountains." But I told her to see my mom.  The nursing home called Sunday night and said that she fell and hit her head,  but she's ok.  She came back from the hospital and ICU after pneumonia.  

My ex said,  "do you think that's a good idea?"

Possible responses:

":)o you think it's a good idea to take them to see your mom?"
":)o you have a soul? Sometimes I wonder."
":)o you think the kids might be hurt? So far the only people who have hurt the kids are you,  your H and some of the people in your family."

What I said instead:

"Why not? Do you think they might be traumatized by seeing old people in a nursing home?"

She did,  "I don't know... ."

She's afraid the kids might be traumatized.  This triggers her,  and she gets overprotective, like at the gym where she caused drama with another mom.  .  

I yelled into the back seat to S8 who was still awake,"hey son,  do you want to go see grandma [name] This weekend?"

"Oh yeah!"

The kids sometimes ask me what happened to her.  She just left our home after 4 months living with us,  no goodbye to them. 

I'll get them back tomorrow morning for the weekend to drive out of town.  

15 mins into a car ride and I get triggered... .

She did offer sympathy when I told her we had a layoff the day before.  

I think my problem is that I share too much.  Someone here a year ago or so asked me,  "are you still married? Because you sound like it." I'm not ignorant enough to throw in the personal responsibility towel and deem her an emotional vampire. I can choose to keep my mouth shut.  

I guess I'm lonely,  and Lily The Chihuahua who lets the birds and mice steal her food is worthless. I wish she had better boundaries.  

[Jeffree]

I can choose to keep my mouth shut.

Or you can just try and minimize your interactions with her and stick to "safe" subjects that don't involve receiving her approval or support or even feedback. Let her do most of the superficial talking and sprinkle in the occasional reply.

Do what you will with your time with your kids. She doesn't need to know, and if the kids tell her so be it. If she asks, you can volunteer a reply.

I guess I'm lonely

Perhaps... .or maybe you're still working off the old playbook with her and need to change your tack.

J

[Insom]

I guess I'm lonely,  and Lily The Chihuahua who lets the birds and mice steal her food is worthless. I wish she had better boundaries.

Oh, Turkish!  No advice, just struck by your honesty and poetic sense of humor.  I know this has all felt hard and I am rooting for you. 

[Turkish]

The kids told me tonight that when they were on vacation last week,  mommy held D5 on her lap for three drives for lack of car seats in her friend's car. Her friend has two little kids.  We went through this over 3 years ago when she was driving with her sister and her baby. I texted her to ask if this was true.  3 hours, no answer. This is probably one of the same friends who told her to leave me and find her own happiness,  as my ex finally told me a year ago,  her friends enabling her at the time.  

She's smart not to respond by text.

Responding angry is not good.  Better to sleep on it.  Given that, it's good she hasn't responded.

Past stuff comes up,  like how I was forbidden from bathing the babies for over 6 months because she and her mom knew better (how hard could it be? Spray them off in the shower... .kidding). I really need to sleep on this.  

[Turkish]

Over 24 hrs she finally responded to my text. "I just saw your message... ." I call BS. Since I'm pissed at the likely lie,  I'm not responding. I wouldn't say anything good angry.  Better to sleep on it.  I'll see her Thursday in person when I pick up the kids.

[heartandwhole]

Over 24 hrs she finally responded to my text. "I just saw your message... ." I call BS. Since I'm pissed at the likely lie,  I'm not responding. I wouldn't say anything good angry.  Better to sleep on it.  I'll see her Thursday in person when I pick up the kids.

Good strategy, Turkish. If it's true, it's done and can't be undone. D5 is well, thank goodness. By Thursday, I'm sure you'll be able to communicate clearly and briefly how you feel about it and what you want done differently in the future. (I'd ask her straight up at first if the report is true.)

You can't control your wife's behavior, but you can express your thoughts and even actions that you (may) take if it continues.

Let us know how it goes.

heartandwhole