Anybody’s pwBPD say they were empathic, or an empath?

[The Cat in d Hat]

Anybody’s pwBPD say they were empathic, or an empath?

If so, we’re they really?

[Teedot]

Mine said he was "too empathetic" but what i found out was he was bothered if i was affected by anything that did not allow me to be completely focused on loving him.  He would get very anxious if others around him were struggling with anything and i do believe it made his control issues flare up... .

[tiki]

Yeah mine “feels too much” and “feels everything” according to him. I don’t know if it’s something they can use if they want to but normally chose not to? Like selective empathy? I’ve seen him not care about my feelings but as for his claims I almost believe he has a special ability because how else could he have made me feel so understood. I’m going to say selective empathy that is mostly used to their advantage but maybe occasionally rubs off other places too?

[enlighten me]

I worked with a girl that for her job had to do a test. The test consisted of 10 photos of various stages of an emotion going from a blank face to a full emotion such as a smile by the tenth photo. Normal perception is around the fifth or sixth photo. She told me of a girl that was getting them right at 2 or 3. What I found interesting is that before her job my friend did a psychology degree and said that when she worked with this woman she was certain she was BPD.

I'm not sure about empathic abilities but I do believe that pwBPD are hypersensitive to peoples emotions and this may be seen as empathic abilities. This is also why I believe that we get confused by some reactions due to the fact that they have misread our emotional state and reacted to it.

[BasementDweller]

I tend to believe most BPD's are highly empathic and intuitive. They can't control their emotions, but that's not to say their observations are not correct. Much of what many "nons" see as highly overreactive responses to "minor events" are actually fairly appropriate responses to things that seem out of proportion because many others fail to notice the things that a highly sensitive BPD does, and many nons simply don't feel as deeply as those with BPD. These seemingly minor events might be tremendously upsetting to anyone who is both very sensitive, and very observant.

So many times I have seen or heard nons (myself included) say "My last partner didn't get upset about that!" There's a good chance your last partner didn't notice subtleties, and maybe cared a bit less, about well... .everything.

What many refer to as the pwBPD's "awful jealousy" might be a genuinely warranted reaction to subtle forms of behavior in the non that really ARE cause for alarm... .coupled with the fact that they love a hell of a lot more deeply than many other types of people. You'd probably have to be highly empathic to have such strong reactions to the behaviors of your partner.

[MeandThee29]

Yes, mine prided himself in being able to read and "meet" people.

But he always held back with people and had a distrust of them. In recent years, he wasn't close to anyone at work and didn't have any local friends.

The empath label bugged me because he had a tough time grasping what we were going through with all of his medical and psychiatric problems. It was all about him.

Our church was shocked about the events of 2017 because he seemed perfectly fine on the surface.

[MeandThee29]

What many refer to as the pwBPD's "awful jealousy" might be a genuinely warranted reaction to subtle forms of behavior in the non that really ARE cause for alarm... .coupled with the fact that they love a hell of a lot more deeply than many other types of people. You'd probably have to be highly empathic to have such strong reactions to the behaviors of your partner.

That's a good observation. I always wondered why he reacted so strongly to my absences, even for things like going to a funeral, visiting my family, going to a local meeting, etc. Friends of mine did things on their own off-and-on too, and never got a reaction from their spouses. Mine was so deep with me that I couldn't be away. That also explains his reactions when he left. I was of course struggling but kept it to myself, but he was imploding in irrational ways. I think he wanted me to beg him to come back and act like nothing happened.

[The Cat in d Hat]

Mine flat out said she cannot stop thinking about me and gets massive amounts of anxiety from it. It was flattering and unsettling, and she knew there something wrong with that, she just didn’t quite know how to handle it, and I had no idea what I was dealing with at the time.

[gotbushels]

If so, we’re they really?

Empathy with other individuals isn't the same as hypersensitivity of one's own emotions.

coupled with the fact that they love a hell of a lot more deeply than many other types of people. You'd probably have to be highly empathic to have such strong reactions to the behaviors of your partner.

BasementDweller please embellish?  I'm curious of your thoughts here.

[MeandThee29]

Empathy with other individuals isn't the same as hypersensitivity of one's own emotions.

Another good insight. Mine's thinking baffled me like no other. His emotions went places I didn't understand.

[enlighten me]

I find empathy to be a most selfish emotion. This may sound odd but to truly empathise one has to put oneself in the other persons shoes and imagine how you would feel if it happened to you. Therefore it becomes about ones own feelings rather than the other persons.

[The Cat in d Hat]

I find empathy to be a most selfish emotion. This may sound odd but to truly empathise one has to put oneself in the other persons shoes and imagine how you would feel if it happened to you. Therefore it becomes about ones own feelings rather than the other persons.

Well said. I’ve never thought of it that way. Makes sense.

They also do often describe themselves to be hypersensitive, ties in a bit with “walking on eggshells” all the time.

[enlighten me]

Both my uBPD exs I would say were very empathic as everything was all about them and their feelings. 

[zachira]

Nobody is one thing all the time, so I am wary when someone tells me they are an empath and can always read people's emotions. I am often surprised when I think I know what another is feeling, and then I inquire and find out that people are a lot more complex than I thought. Everyone is an expert on their own experience and nobody is an expert on what others feel or the best actions to take. Some people are indeed better at reading people than others, yet that does not necessarily mean that they have empathy, as this ability can be used to harm others. I have found that a lot of people with personality disorders, including borderlines, like to put on a false front by talking about how they care about others, and doing things for outsides that will give them positive press, while at the same time abusing their family members behind closed doors.

[ozmatoz]

Mine would say that she cares very much and is very empathetic for others and friends, followed up by "just not for you.  I don't give a F about your feelings... ."

Nice right?  If people only knew what it was like behind closed doors... .

[Insom]

I had no idea what I was dealing with at the time.

How about now, Cat?  Do you have a better idea of what you were dealing with now that you've had some time to research BPD?  Has knowing more about the disorder changed your understanding of what happened?

[The Cat in d Hat]

Do you have a better idea of what you were dealing with now that you've had some time to research BPD?  Has knowing more about the disorder changed your understanding of what happened?

When it comes to understanding BPD, I sure know more now than when I started (since I knew nothing basically).

As for how it has helped my situation, I’d have to say somewhat perhaps. I try to dwell less on what I could have changed since a lot of it I had initially blamed myself. Seems like a lot of the mistakes and issues were out of our hands due to the characteristics of the disorder, though there are words I would have avoided.

I’m confused as ever, as I still miss her and want to talk to her even after learning all this; unfortunately I won’t have that chance as it ended horribly. That right there hurts the most, even with all the knowledge.

She may have been empathic? She told me I deserved better... .of course that could just mean she deserved better.

[stixx44]

My ex gave lip service to being empathetic and sympathetic at the beginning.  But I noticed very quickly that she was actually contemptuous of those less fortunate than she. Everyone was measured by her very high standards... .she was a young single mother who raised her kids alone, so why couldn’t so-and-so do that?  They were just being lazy.

If I tried to point out that not everyone’s situation is the same, I paid for it with a sarcastic comment, rage, and one of us leaving.

Mine also told me once we were breaking up because she couldn’t function when I wasn’t physically present... .I didn’t take it as a compliment.  I knew there was something wrong there, but like so many others here, I tried many times and kept trying to change her and me.

We’re done now, and I feel really good.  I have since found out from an ex friend of mine some activities she engaged in during our 3-month separation, and that knowledge has done wonders for me.  I can’t ever go back. 

[Insom]

I try to dwell less on what I could have changed since a lot of it I had initially blamed myself. Seems like a lot of the mistakes and issues were out of our hands due to the characteristics of the disorder, though there are words I would have avoided.

Nicely said.

I’m confused as ever, as I still miss her and want to talk to her even after learning all this; unfortunately I won’t have that chance as it ended horribly. That right there hurts the most, even with all the knowledge.

Yes!  Many of us here can relate to wanting to fix a bad ending.  Me included.  If you want to talk more about missing her and what that's like for you, check out Detaching where you'll find a lot of folks in that same boat.

And when you want to talk more about things you're learning as you process your reactions to what sounds like an emotionally intense relationship, keep posting here!  We are here for you. 

[lighthouse9]

Yes - definitely described herself as an empath at one point, but as someone who is also pretty good at reading people (in a more mechanical, less intuitive way) we were often at odds about reading peoples' intentions or desires. She was better at tuning into some of the less savory things people were thinking and feeling, and I was better at tuning into people acting strategically or with some motive in mind.

For her though, I learned recently that it was a bit of a game for her and gave her a rush to tune into people and even manipulate them. She said this of our marriage counselor - that she was too easy to figure out and manipulate. That one blew me out of the water. I could also tell though that this was a point of struggle for her, especially as she told me that life is easier by herself because she doesn't have to hear other peoples' desires and feel like she needs to do what they want of her. She was saying this after I caught her having an affair and while I was trying to convince her to reconcile our marriage. It was like the pressure of both my desires and the affair partner's desires was enough to make her nuts and she couldn't figure out what she wanted, hence the "no sense of self" thing.

Being an empath for her sounded a lot like she had a sense of obligation for everyone's feelings and desires. It's remarkable though, given how much of the FOG I've experienced revolved around obligation. Because they think they are required to conform to another's desires and expectations, then it is only logical that we are required to conform to theirs. I can't tell you how many times I tried so hard to contort myself to be what she needed at every changing emotion - and of course never succeeded. This felt like some of the "testing and confirmation" that I read about - how they will test you in subtle ways in order to confirm that you're going to stick around. I've started to wonder if my inability to feel exactly what she felt maybe seemed like a betrayal or rejection to her.

I read somewhere on here I believe that other people were cast off as "unfeeling" or out of touch by their BPD partners. Anyone on this thread experience that? I went as far as getting diagnosed with Aspergers, which, I don't deny, but I've NEVER had some of my quirks or ways of operating in the world seen as such a problem or incompatibility by someone. My inability to morph to different groups in social situations or know what to say or how to fit in exactly was seen as a constant let down to her. But, the more I think about it after getting distance, the more I think it's a good thing to be able to have your own interests, desires, and ways of interacting with people. Some people just aren't your people, and as long as you are kind and polite, then who cares if you fit in? With her, it was less that I didn't fit in, but more that I could never keep my finger on who SHE was in different social situations, which meant it was hard to figure out who WE were. I have a pretty strong sense of self - not overly selfish, but I like what I like and it takes a lot for me to just be different for someone. I never have trouble gaining acceptance in a group, but I gain acceptance for being who I am. That probably drove her nuts over time - as much as it attracted her at first.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

This is a really interesting topic. Before we divorced, my ex (uhBPD\NPD) claimed he "cared too much" about people, that he was "highly sensitive", and "empathic". Back then I called "bull" on it based on the horrendous way he treated me (i.e., emotional abuse) and others.

When someone was having trouble getting traction on the ice one day, he laughed at them calling them an idiot and recorded it because he thought it was funny. I wasn't amused and found that disturbing. I was about to try to help that poor person but they managed to figure it out. He did this often.

When the kids or I would get sick, he would say things like "What? You're sick again?" with apparent zero compassion or empathy or sympathy. I was the one who stayed up with the kids through the nights when they were sick, not him. I would hold them and get them what they needed and wouldn't complain about it. Yet he tells me that I'm uncaring and unfeeling, probably because I refuse to be manipulated anymore into reacting how he wants/expects me to react.

There were several times during the divorce that he came across as overly dramatic, in my opinion. I had stopped managing his emotions and all hell seemed to break loose. His reactions felt fake, insincere, and over the top to me. Especially when I had rarely seen him emotional during our twenty year marriage. It seemed really odd. He would break down sobbing, like really loud sobbing seemingly at the drop of a hat. He would make seemingly dramatic exits (suitcase in hand, one foot literally out the door) asking us if we really wanted him to leave. Yet he didn't leave when I said yes. He claimed to know me better than I know myself. I was able to prove him wrong many times on that. He couldn't have been more wrong. It's like he created this alter persona for me that paints me as this horrible monster and I know I'm not.

I believe his rages were genuine, though. I could feel the energy change and my anxiety would flare up quite a bit. I'd go into fight or flight mode thanks to my PTSD.

Now that we've divorced for a couple of years now, I look back and wonder if he really did feel deeply back then and I just didn't realize it. Lately, I think maybe he is actually sensitive and feels some things deeply. That could explain his rages. His rages got to the point I was afraid he would be come physically violent. It could explain why he takes a lot of things very personally.

What I find interesting is that he is extremely socially awkward. He does not read people very well at all. He does not pick up on social cues. Once I kicked him under the table when he said something rude to my boss at lunch. He then turned to me and said "Ow! Why did you kick me?" I was so embarrassed. My boss seemed to understand, though. He would have no problem berating me in front of friends and co-workers if I had wronged him somehow.

When I was newly diagnosed with PTSD, he admitted to re-traumatizing me on purpose because he thought he was helping me and I just need to get my anger out. Long story short, I had been emotionally shutdown my entire life due to abuse. I had just started trauma therapy and was learning to feel again and how to deal with emotions. One day a few weeks into my therapy, he pushed every button he could think of even though I was begging him to stop until I lost it and hit him repeatedly with a pillow screaming at him how much I hated him. He seemed to have zero empathy or even sympathy for my obvious state of mind. I ended up on the floor in the fetal position sobbing and he actually told me I was unstable and a danger to the children. I don't see any empathetic person doing that to someone they claim to love. I have yet to forgive him for that so I can move on. That one is a really hard one for me.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I find empathy to be a most selfish emotion. This may sound odd but to truly empathise one has to put oneself in the other persons shoes and imagine how you would feel if it happened to you. Therefore it becomes about ones own feelings rather than the other persons.

I disagree. I believe empathy is imaging how that person feels from what you know about them. It has nothing to do with you at all. It's immersing yourself into their shoes. I think what you're describing is sympathy instead.

[gotbushels]

The Cat in d Hat nice development for you on this thread.   

I'd like to support this by disambiguating.

Empathy is an ability or set of functions to relate to other individuals--it's not an emotion.

It's known that demanding attention, exploitation of others, etc., is characteristic of BPD. So then this tendency to fixate on this self by the pwBPD could be driven by the attention factor rather than the being driven by higher empathy. So a pwBPD may focus attention on themselves and still be deficient in empathy.

So going forward--

She may have been empathic? She told me I deserved better... .of course that could just mean she deserved better.

The thing is--yes, perhaps you do know in your heart that you deserve something better. That deserving something better, that may speak to you deeply. If you're dwelling there, it could be for some good reason. That reason might not be to dwell about the "what a person deserves→pwBPD's empathy level" connection but perhaps about the "what a person deserves→what does The Cat in d Hat deserve" connection. Maybe.

Anyway, I did highlight the part that focuses on your things. Whether that's her empathy or whatever, it's still hers. I think that's her still renting a room in your head. 

If you want to talk more about missing her and what that's like for you, check out Detaching where you'll find a lot of folks in that same boat.

I believe empathy is ... .

I like your meaning I_Am_The_Fire.  Yes, I do think imagining how another individual feels, that's close to what empathy is. To add to what you said, it's indeed possible for empathy to be about the individual. The DSM5 does state that empathy may be used by pwBPDs, "but only with the expectation that the other person will 'be there' in return to meet their own needs on demand." So empathy may be used with quite a focused goal of putting attention toward their own needs. This tendency for using it this way, I think that's closer to a pwBPD simply using a good skill (empathy) to get what they want--even if it's for a narrow purpose.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

gotbushels... I agree with what you wrote! It makes sense. Thanks!   

[The Cat in d Hat]

gotbushels small steps everyday.

So is the consensus that they do feel empathy? Just the reasoning and motive behind it is different than a non? (Self-serving/selfish VS. true empathy)

[enlighten me]

I think it depends on how the pwBPD is feeling. If your painted black then I don't think they would empathise for you.

[The Cat in d Hat]

I think it depends on how the pwBPD is feeling. If your painted black then I don't think they would empathise for you.

That makes sense. Our last conversation when I tried to make sense of why she went NC, given her erratic behaviors and her saying that thinking about me gives her anxiety, I mentioned my “health issues” since she seemed anxious (didn’t know what BPD wasn’t the time). Couldn’t even explain.

She jumped straight to death. I just wanted to relate to her anxiety... .she instead got angry and said “why were you planning a life with me if your dying”

Lol no empathy indeed. I guess death technically is abandonment.

[once removed]

good discussion! just wanted to add some info in here. it can help if we look at the ability to empathize like any other ability, on a spectrum.

DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels
 
Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.
 
Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent in awareness of effect of own behavior on others.
 
Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.
 
Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.
 
Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

this is from our workshop on our own empathy skills, but it explains a lot: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210574.0

Empathy is one of the main components of emotional intelligence.   Empathy is often confused with sympathy - but empathy is distinctly different.  Empathy is the experience of understanding another person's condition from their perspective. You effectively place yourself in their shoes and feel what they are feeling. Seeing things from another person's perspective isn't simply understanding their point of view -- it extends to understanding, without disclaimers, why they feel their point of view is just and appropriate and honest.  Empathic people are skilled in placing themselves inside the shoes of others and seeing the world through another person’s perspective.

[Tired_Dad]

Mine fits this description. I would say that she is like an emotional sponge just taking in all the emotions around her and swirling them all in her head and internalizing them then spiting them out in a furious rage at whoever it is that sets her off.

[gotbushels]

The small steps are where this one's at The Cat in d Hat.   

So is the consensus ... .

If you're still curious about the empathy, I think it's more helpful to you if you decided for yourself--once removed recommended a fab thread. 

She jumped straight to death. ... .
“why were you planning a life with me if your dying” ... .
I guess death technically is abandonment.

That's an astute observation The Cat in d Hat. If the self is defined by the relationship's status, I'd imagine that the ending of it would feel like death for that person. That kinda gives a whole extra dimension for what breakup grieving must have been like for some pwBPDs--for those that go through it anyway.