Junk psychology (Shrink4Men)

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I was reading through the Library Board and came across a topic that I’d like to share here. It basically boils down to how the internet can be used so irresponsibly when it comes to matters of the heart, mind and soul. This topic has to do with Shrink4Men.

What we’re all going through on this board is serious stuff that has had a very detrimental impact on our day to day lives. We’re hurting, and simply don’t want to anymore. Some of us would give the last Penny in our pocket if the return was peace and understanding.

Shrink4Men is the first place that I found that I sunk my teeth into. I regret it now. The narrative there is anger. That there should be no empathy, compassion or sympathy reflected to the ones that ail us. The ones that have blueprinted our own path to true healing and true self.

The term “Radical Acceptance” has been hijacked and self defined by this Shrink4Men . It is basically defined as accepting abuse and being the beaten down person that we became. I’ve come to learn, while on this site, that that is simply untrue.

Shrink4Men was a roadblock for me. It helped me to stay angry and reside in victimhood. Shrink4Men sold a book. Then the activity slowed down on that site.

What I’m getting at is that I don’t want to hate my ex. I went in the wrong direction in trying to achieve that. I want to learn how to be compassionate and sympathetic towards her. I want to grasp and understand that she’s a person in need of that. The thing is, and anyone reading this, please take heed. I ruined all of that with her through anger and feelings of victimhood. I told her what I thought was wrong with her because I was angry. Because I was a victim. In that state of mind, nothing gets fixed. The signs that you see on this site that say “Beware of Junk Psychology”, are there for a reason.

[JNChell]

I was reading through the Library Board and came across a topic that I’d like to share here. It basically boils down to how the internet can be used so irresponsibly when it comes to matters of the heart, mind and soul. This topic has to do with Shrink4Men.

What we’re all going through on this board is serious stuff that has had a very detrimental impact on our day to day lives. We’re hurting, and simply don’t want to anymore. Some of us would give the last Penny in our pocket if the return was peace and understanding.

Shrink4Men is the first place that I found that I sunk my teeth into. I regret it now. The narrative there is anger. That there should be no empathy, compassion or sympathy reflected to the ones that ail us. The ones that have blueprinted our own path to true healing and true self.

The term “Radical Acceptance” has been hijacked and self defined by this Shrink4Men . It is basically defined as accepting abuse and being the beaten down person that we became. I’ve come to learn, while on this site, that that is simply untrue.

Shrink4Men was a roadblock for me. It helped me to stay angry and reside in victimhood. Shrink4Men sold a book. Then the activity slowed down on that site.

What I’m getting at is that I don’t want to hate my ex. I went in the wrong direction in trying to achieve that. I want to learn how to be compassionate and sympathetic towards her. I want to grasp and understand that she’s a person in need of that. The thing is, and anyone reading this, please take heed. I ruined all of that with her through anger and feelings of victimhood. I told her what I thought was wrong with her because I was angry. Because I was a victim. In that state of mind, nothing gets fixed. The signs that you see on this site that say “Beware of Junk Psychology”, are there for a reason.

[hurting300]

I saw a lot of truth in her writings. They aren’t the victim. You don’t have to accept bad behavior. Why would you be sympathetic towards an abuser? And believe me I’m not trying to be rude. But I don’t understand. Anger is NORMAL when someone abuses you. Just because someone has BPD doesn’t mean they are in a fog and don’t understand. They understand completely what they did.

[JNChell]

There are valid points, but the basis of the approach is to villianize and leave it at that. To each their own, but that is not the approach that I’m willing to take anymore.

[JNChell]

For the sake of constructive conversation, can I ask what you found helpful in Dr. T’s advice and recommendations?

[snappybrowneyes]

What I’m getting at is that I don’t want to hate my ex. I went in the wrong direction in trying to achieve that. I want to learn how to be compassionate and sympathetic towards her. I want to grasp and understand that she’s a person in need of that. The thing is, and anyone reading this, please take heed. I ruined all of that with her through anger and feelings of victimhood. I told her what I thought was wrong with her because I was angry. Because I was a victim. In that state of mind, nothing gets fixed. The signs that you see on this site that say “Beware of Junk Psychology”, are there for a reason.
[/quote]


Anger is useful in the beginning but does not serve anyone well in the long term. It will eat at a person like a cancer. Radical Acceptance = It is what it is, it is as simple as that. When I felt like a victim, I was angry too. The bottom line aka the truth was I was angry at myself for allowing it. I tried in vain to change my BPDh to no avail. It was only when I changed my feelings and set boundaries did my pure happiness return.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi there, JNChell

Anger is only one stage of grieving.  Most of us grieve the loss of our hopes and dreams that did not materialize with our PWBPD.  I agree, anger is not a place to set up camp.  Like snappybrowneyes says, anger will eat a person up if we let it take root.  I also agree that anger is useful as a motivator for change.  Usually, anger means we are not in denial and ready to make some changes. 

JNChell, it sounds as if you are really doing some good healing work.  Keep on the path to recovery.  The stages of grief are a cycle and not linear.  So, anger may cycle around again.  But, you can work through it to get to a better place.

Mustbe

[Duped 1]

I saw a lot of truth in her writings. They aren’t the victim. You don’t have to accept bad behavior. Why would you be sympathetic towards an abuser? And believe me I’m not trying to be rude. But I don’t understand. Anger is NORMAL when someone abuses you. Just because someone has BPD doesn’t mean they are in a fog and don’t understand. They understand completely what they did.

I completely agree with this.

[snappybrowneyes]

There are valid points, but the basis of the approach is to villianize and leave it at that. To each their own, but that is not the approach that I’m willing to take anymore.

I could be wrong but I think what JNChell is trying to say is that he does not like the way that anger has changed him. If you choose to stay angry at someone long term you are keeping yourself bound to that person in a very unhealthy way. Choosing to forgive someone,( even when they don't deserve it) is truly a gift to ourselves. Anger can quickly turn to bitterness and infect our entire life.

I do want to clarify that forgiveness does not mean reconciliation. It does not mean the action that hurt us are no longer valid, it simply means the anger and hurt will no longer control us. The opposite of love is not hate but indifference.
I personally try to see the side of others and can feel compassion for those that have hurt me, but I choose not to re-engage with those people if they have crossed one of my hard boundary lines. I will not allow them to change me into a person that I do not like.

[Duped 1]

I do want to clarify that forgiveness does not mean reconciliation. It does not mean the action that hurt us are no longer valid, it simply means the anger and hurt will no longer control us. The opposite of love is not hate but indifference.
I personally try to see the side of others and can feel compassion for those that have hurt me, but I choose not to re-engage with those people if they have crossed one of my hard boundary lines. I will not allow them to change me into a person that I do not like.

This is well written. I'm almost a year and a half removed and I still have days where I absolutely hate her but I also have times when I have compassion for her. I don't want her to be miserable for the rest of her live (yet I'm pretty certain she will be). I guess the part that bothers me is how she fools so many people and is so incredibly fake. People have no idea how toxic, abusive, and integrity challenged she is. I know this is a little petty and I need to let it go. They say the healing process is not linear. The goal is to get to that point of being consistently indifferent. It's a long road to get there.

[JNChell]

 
Hey everyone! Thanks for the replies. I’m pretty busy at this time, but will be back to respond.

[Skip]

The words are certainly biased.

I think the point is that this is an anti-psychology, anti-feminism site - and there are some very unconventional ideas promoted there. There are many who feel it is unhealthy.

There are strong disagreements with the DSM. There is the belief that community therapists are largely a feminist and enabling conspiracy. There is the lumping of all difficult relationship partners into the category of sociopaths (which makes no sense). There is the redefinition of things like Radical Acceptance to mean acceptance of abuse (as if that would be a psychology tool)... .and there is the "mad as hell", kick em to the curb, anger.

Powerful words in a powerless situation - how do you kick someone to the curb that walked away from you?

It's one thing to have natural anger over a bad situation. Its another thing to sell (its a business), anger as a cure.

I think this video is telling... .listen to the contempt and then the confusion over what is or isn't in the DSM (from two "experts", both who are wrong) and then the absurd definition of radical acceptance at the end of the recording.


Date: Mar-2015Minutes: 3:37
Video Short | Tara Palamatier
Full video: bpdfamily.com/message_board/msg12539682

There is a war between BPD anti-stigma groups and these men's advocates which I don't want a part of either side. The problem with people with BPD is not the stigma. And the problem of people in the men's groups is not female sociopaths.

If your ex was a sociopath, you would have seen that and been gone.

Like most of us, we had a whirlwind romance with someone on the BPD spectrum (70-80% of with a subclinical partner) and we didn't know how to radically accept our reality (who our partner really was) and we tried to will a goose into being a swan.

If anything, the lesson is that its a fuzzy line between a romance hitting a rough patch and a romance that has cancer and is destined to die.  If we can learn to read that line, we will fair better in the future.

[JNChell]

hurting300 & Duped1. I agree. There are many valid points made on that site. There are also many “therapies” that are meant to keep us stuck. May I ask? Were either of you on the forum? pwBPD is the abbreviation we use here. CB is the abbreviation that’s used there. What do you think CB abbreviates to? Also, do you feel that labeling our exes with CB helps us? Or is it blame shifting so we carry no responsibility? Just like our exes. Where is the equilibrium in that? Where is the self reflection in simply calling our ex a crazy ___? Ladies, the site being discussed is directed towards men. I’m not being gender biased. Anyway, that’s what that site does. IMHO.

[JNChell]

Hi Aiko. Thanks for replying. Honestly, I don’t feel like my opinion of that site and it’s ideology are harsh. They make fun of people like the one’s we love/have loved. The ones we have children with. All situations are different. 2 months to 40 years. They generalize that time span, the experiences and the pain that evolves from these relationships. I’ve watched every video and read every article. It’s junk, in my own personal opinion. The advice only served to fuel my anger and to place blame. My $.02

[JNChell]

Skip, thank you for the business hit. They sold a book. I’d like to add that there is no solicitation on this site. Anonymity is enforced. There are no “offers” for one on one therapy via Skype where insurance isn’t accepted.

[Mutt]

There are also many “therapies” that are meant to keep us stuck.

There’s a lot of good  points made in this discussion I enjoyed reading all of the comments. I just wanted to add something I’ve seen it on this board in the past where members are stuck in victimhood and it’s okay to feel that way it serves it’s purpose but it’s like any other part of your life you need growth.

What I dont like about junk psych sites is that it doesn’t help you to move past that. Where are you victim, survivor, thriver and what is your goal? Do you move past being victim and become survivor and thriver? If you’re stuck being a victim don’t feel ashamed you can become unstuck.

[hurting300]

Both sides of this argument are completely true. I agree with you guys.

[Turkish]

That's a good chart Muttley. It gives me pause to think about how mixed I am myself between the three stages. 

[wellwellwell]

Yes, that's a great chart. Thank you. Clarified a lot about where I am and what I'm currently struggling with. This an interesting thread. I agree with almost all the comments, if that's possible. Discovering how little anger I felt entitled to was a shock. I'd always gone straight to forgiveness, and actually been gas-lit (don't like the term but shorthand for being told I was the problem) into thinking my anger was the issue. As soon as I controlled it, things just got worse and worse because there were no more arguments for my ex to use to justify her behavior... .then it became a look on my face or the tone of my voice... .I've slowly learned to see anger as my friend, a warning that I'm at risk. Getting there. But it needs to be allowed to collect and then transform into that strong protective shell that the thriver has. That's the jump... .so I see the value of Shrink4Men  -  I remember reading that - but it's only part of a much more empowering process, I guess/

[Red5]

Shrink4Men... .one of the first websites I opened on the night I first came looking, I was so hungry for any explanation as to why my marraige was in such a perdicament... .and Shrink4Men led me here to bpdfamily, so thank God for that!

Red5

[JNChell]

Good point, Red5. It was a vehicle to get me here as well. I can be grateful for that.

[hurting300]

For the sake of constructive conversation, can I ask what you found helpful in Dr. T’s advice and recommendations?

I didn’t see anywhere that she lied about what these people are capable of. BPD people know exactly what they do and why. But they still do it.

[Skip]

I didn’t see anywhere that she lied... .

The same can be said, I guess, for Jerry Springer.

Hurt', you had an extremely terrible thing happen to you. It might be good to open a thread and tell everyone where things stand with your access to your child. You have every right to be angry and resentful. Anyone would be.

Surely you recognize that, other than stoking people's wounds and indignation and to encourage anger, Palmatier (and her friend) have very little to say about anything. It's all theater designed to sell product.

When I listen to the video, I don't hear a enlightenment. I hear drama and extreme bias. These two read and mock someones letter (who isn't present to defend themselves of mock back), they debate the fundamentals of what is or isn't in the DSM (interestingly, both were wrong), and then, rather than answer the readers questions in an serious way, they mock the members here as an answer. In this clip, Palmatier says that "radical acceptance" is about accepting abuse. She doesn't know what the term means.

"Radical acceptance" means to accept reality as it is, not as you wish it to be - to "see your partner for who they are, not who you idealize them to be". It has nothing to do with accepting abuse. If your partner is an abuser, radical acceptance would mean to see them as they really are - and not to see a false image or hold onto hollow promises - and set expectations and make decisions based on that. Fact check: Here is a transcript of Marsha Linehan's discussing the term she coined, radical acceptance (link here).

I understand you hurt and angry. Try not to lose your balance and perspective in this wound.

[Cromwell]

I think I came across her once before on Youtube, but wasnt that interested.

Have now read her site and there is some well written stuff, the problem for me is the literary style, a bit too sensationalist as a way to make her assertions have more credibility.

I dont really enjoy any books articulated to the mass market, in the end this site of lay-people got me through alongside some soul searching. Reading her stuff would have helped me embrace some anger and see my ex in a different light. At a time I was utterly clueless. I just wish there was more stated facts, referenced, but this is a book geared towards the masses and has been tailored as such, not an academic treatise.

I think it would probably help to open up the anger stage, but youd need something more to build on from it. In other words, read empiracly and not focus too narrow, my recovery has involved reading thousands of posts online which synthesise themselves, information gained from a wide array of sources. Ive never read some of the best selling classics.

I agree with JNChell, have to be careful what is latched on to when you consider that it is an emotional vulnerable time and can be more open than otherwise to suggestions - via desperation. I started off by reading Shari Shreibers website, it helped but at the same time, I desperately needed to expand and broaden my perceptions beyond seeing my ex as some sort of freak incarnate, which is how it led me to feel. Polarised from the idolisation I previously had, it was too much of a swing in my world paradigm.

If I was to write a book it would be entitled "How I recovered from an abusive relationship with a borderline personality disordered partner"

or close to that. Anything broader would just be an attempt to cash-in by generalising the unique dynamics of my situation - just as all of our situations are different. Why might my book not be successful? It wouldnt appeal to those who for instance, were not stalked, or for those reading it where id have found compassion - when they are in a position of being miles away from going through the stages to get to it.

If I was to entitle my book "a thousand days with the borderline" "Sleeping with Satan" or "Take Control; Train the narcissist in your life"

I avoid books with catchy titles, a shame, because one such book I did give a chance and it ended up having mostly very high quality content. It had the word "secrets of relationships" and written by a phd psychotherapist. The academic credentials were enough to sway me, but the title put me off, how can they be "secrets" if tens of thousands of readers have since discovered them.

Its probably more a fault of the publishers than the author, yet, I see it as a bit dishonourable to be swayed by that, as well as being expected to write a book as JNChell says, for people who are very emotional vulnerable and reaching out for help, to have to then try in addition to "seperate the wheat from the chaff", of what is good content and what is sensationalist page filler.

[hurting300]

Hey Skip long time no chat. I did say she didn’t lie about anything and I believe that. But think about this, which site helped me more? BPD Family did. Those forums of hers are ANGRY and anger doesn’t help. I would not recommend her site if you want true meaning.

[Sirnut]

Thank you JNChell.

I think what you’re saying is that anger and blame are not the way to go in coming to grips with a failed relationship, and I’m right with you on that.

No doubt there are some exceptions to this, but most people out there who we might have a relationship with are not frauds and charlatans, they were not out to deliberately deceive us, and for our part we are not fools. We are just all flawed individuals in our own ways, some more obviously than others. That’s why the relationship failed.

But still, if we loved someone, chances are it was because there was something really lovable in them. For a while at least, we had the privilege of seeing their best self. And even when the relationship is broken and we have to let go, we can still honour what was good in it and carry it with us.

That’s what I’m trying to do anyhow. There’s honesty and self respect in that, I believe.

[JNChell]

I’m glad to see that this thread got a bump. Throughout my research, which has become a daily obsession, I’ve come across a lot of junk psychology. The thing is is that I’m able to decipher what is helpful and what isn’t now with thanks to this support group. I love bpdfamily and everyone that contributes to it. This place has helped me navigate my way through the darkest times in my life with meaning and acceptance. I feel that I’ve came unglued here, but I wasn’t shunned or ignored. I was able to let my emotions out here where they would’ve been rejected socially. I would’ve been seen as a crazy person in the public eye. It’s sad that people have to bridle their pain when it needs to be let out to heal. Being the saddest of all is that it’s even possible for people to go through the pain in the first place. Society is riddled with this multi-generational dysfunction. Just like a pwBPD, it will take a phenomenal disruption to itself to cause the great paradigm shift that needs to happen.

Cromwell, I’m happy to be speaking with you again.

Have now read her site and there is some well written stuff, the problem for me is the literary style, a bit too sensationalist as a way to make her assertions have more credibility.

This is exactly the conclusion that I’ve come to. She’s a sensationalist. She is angry. She was abused by a NPD, and it is coming out in her work/mission. I imagine that her and Paul sold enough books to become financially comfortable. Extremism seems to sell quite well these days. I learned while working in sales that it is a very psychological profession. When selling warranties and insurance one has to play on another’s fears to be successful. Once the large amounts of money that I was making wore off and conscious awoke, I couldn’t stomach what I was doing anymore. It was gross. I learned a lot though. I now know when I’m being pitched or BS’d for the most part. I didn’t know I was being pitched/BS’d in some of my relationships though. I’m wiser now and have more tools in my toolbox.

I just wish there was more stated facts, referenced,

I feel the same way. IMHO, it’s propaganda to sell a cheesy book. I almost bought it, but like you stated, it’s too “catchy”. The title and the illustration aren’t geared towards real healing. The forum, looking back, is a bit concerning. Here, the people in our situations are abbreviated as pwBPD as an example. On that forum, they are abbreviated as CB, or Crazy B ’s. I don’t find that to be helpful. While deconstructing this even more, I ended up with unhealthy partners because I am currently unhealthy. There is no accountability with the ideology of Shrink4Men. It’s simply a reverse role. It’s blame shifting. Simply remaining stuck.

I started off by reading Shari Shreibers website, it helped but at the same time, I desperately needed to expand and broaden my perceptions beyond seeing my ex as some sort of freak incarnate

I’ve read all of her stuff as well. Like you, it was helpful for a moment. Her videos, scary stuff. Last I heard she has been shut down by the law. That is one unstable lady that should not be treating anyone. I’m confident in saying that she has acute psychological issues with a very intelligent mind.

Cromwell, if you were to write a book, I think it would be from the heart and filled with truth from experience. I’ve told you in another post that reading your posts are often like reading a page from a book. Just because someone wasn’t stalked, as you were, was reading your book doesn’t mean that they would be unable to see similarities or find help/guidance from your testimonies. Just look at the activity and exchanges within this support group. No one story is the same, but they are so similar. Also, we continue to engage each other because of the similarities. I’ve not been stalked, but I can empathize with the behaviors. Write a book, friend. I’d like a signed copy.

[JNChell]

Hey, Sirnut. Thanks for contributing.

No doubt there are some exceptions to this, but most people out there who we might have a relationship with are not frauds and charlatans, they were not out to deliberately deceive us, and for our part we are not fools. We are just all flawed individuals in our own ways, some more obviously than others. That’s why the relationship failed.

I relate to your statement. You know, I don’t believe that my Son’s mother is a fraud. I believe that she is residing in a very unstable mind that doesn’t allow her emotional freedom. She’s wounded, but won’t accept it. Pain causes fear and the death of one’s self is a scary thing to comprehend. Even if it means the best version of one’s self emerging from the death of the former self, it still means a lot of change and facing some pretty brutal stuff along the way.

I think that you summed it up perfectly. Both involved are/were flawed in ways that couldn’t allow for a sustainable relationship. I believe that there comes a time when we have to make a choice. In peticular, the members within this support group. We either look inward and search ourselves, or we decide to continue down the same thorny path. I want to know the feeling of being in a healthy and fruitful relationship. I want to feel the warmth of a woman that truly appreciates who I am. I want to know what it feels like to be safe with that woman, but I know that I have to earn that by building myself up to reaching her.

I spend a lot of time on the PSI board now. I’d like to invite you over to read or even post if you feel inclined. I’m glad that you chimed in here.