Redefining our marriage

[Pier68]

For our entire marriage of 15 years we've been in and out of counselling. Usually he walks out and refuses to return when the therapist puts him on the spot. Our most recent counsellor -- a woman Husband likes, surprisingly -- told me Husband probably has BPD when he walked out on her, too, a couple of months ago. She had been trying to help us redefine our marriage when we failed to make any progress on that assignment on our own. 

Three years ago Husband was removed from the house for three months due to threats of violence against me for the first time in a long time. He had a meltdown when I was laid off from my job after 25 years. A mutual friend saw him on a dating site during the time he was away and he made public posts on social mefia that attempted to smear me. When the no contact order was lifted, he moved back into the basement where he's been since. He was honest that he was dating -- I didn't care, I was numb -- and he went to visit a woman in another city a month after moving home. He decided he was going to move to her city and told me of his plans or, he offered, we could work on our marriage.

I cannot get him to tell me what he wants from our relationship. He wants me to tell him what I want, but he shuts down the discussion if he doesn't like what I say.

Our children are adults, so our reason for being in the same house now is primarily financial. He doesn't work enough to support himself and I don't want to sell my house to give him the proceeds he's legally entitled to.

He won't agree to formalizing an inhouse separation. He sleeps in the basement but wants to be able to come into my bedroom or grab my boobs in the kitchen when he feels like it. He says he's not dating, but I wonder if he's maybe online, trying to get his ego stroked.

My need for physical affection are unmet. I have a hard time being physical with him because he's dishonest, unkind, and has poor hygiene. He's started smoking again, too.

How do we start to put boundaries on what our marriage is and isn't when he won't talk about it with me or a counsellor?

If we're married and living in the same house -- which we are -- how do I meet my needs without compromising my morals and sneaking around?

Pier 68

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pier68]

Years together: 17

Age: 48

Married: 15

Children/ages: 21, 23, 23 (blended family)

Living Together: 17

How Many Times Have You Broken Up: 2

Sexual Orientation: Hetero

What are the top reasons you want this relationship to work? Financial and so he/we can get therapy


What do you like most about your partner? He's very intelligent and has many skills


What are the top challenges facing your relationship? His personality disorder and physical health, my physical health, two adult children with mental health diagnosis


What do you find most difficult? Collaboration


How would you categorize your partner? BPD traits



How would you categorize yourself? Codependent? 


Is anyone in therapy? If so, what? Marriage counselling off and on


What are your goals at bpdfamily.com? Improve collaboration or decide to leave for my own mental health

[Mutt]

Hi Pier68,

It has to feel lonely when communication has broken down between an W and her H. You mentioned couples counselling or marriage counselling it’s a good idea to do individual therapy concurrently. Are you in T?

[Pier68]

Hi Mutt. I am not currently in individual therapy. My health benefits are very limited when it comes to counselling services so I try to keep them for marriage counselling. I can check with our province to see what might be available for him/me/us.

[Mutt]

I think that you'll have similar feelings but BPDh doesn't want to move off center for now. I think that a counsellor would help you you could try catholic social services it has been recommended to me in the past from my EFAP counsellors. Good luck.

[isilme]

Hi there, I am sorry you are in this limbo.  It sounds like he got scared at your lay off and could not cope with those changes and went off the deep end a bit, and now can't decide how much he wants to work to swim out of it.

It's nowhere near the same, but 10 years ago H and I were in a type of limbo, not married, not even engaged but had been dating since 1996 where he wanted me around but also needed that emotional supply from flirting and hitting on others all the time and even quasi-dating them.  I was numb, too, and convinced I was the bad guy for feeling jealous as well as for not being "good enough" for him to commit to, and so I did not put my foot down until we hit a critical mass and I could not take it anymore.  It was a really rough, confusing time, and I admit here with internet strangers to having been borderline (no joke) suicidal at the time.  Had I not been worried about someone having to find me and deal with the mess, I'd maybe have done it.  I just could not stand the idea of someone finding me and could not think of a way to do it where I could guarantee no one would be stuck with that. 

In order to find some sanity, I made myself little bargains of "I will stay this long and then decide if I want to keep going."  I made myself learn to be okay if we were together, or if I had to go start a life just me.  Being numb made some of that easier, as I was in a state of shock I think that at 10 years in we'd have gotten to a place where separate lives were even something to consider. 

Anyway, I stopped chasing, and worked on being less co-dependent, and tried to make it clear what I wanted, and then say back and just made it through each day waiting to see what he would choose.  BPD was a new idea to me back then, as was this site.  I had found other sites for recovery after infidelity, and it was helpful, and I believe one pointed me here.  I saw it as a form of group T, where I could do it quietly, confidentially, and not have to face anyone in person that I'd shared very hurtful, intimate things about my life.  I live in a small town and have a recognizable last name, and there was little to no chance of "safe sharing" in person.  It helped a lot.  And as I worked on me, H kinda got dragged upstream with me.  I never treated him badly, I just stopped looking to him for affection, until he wanted to give it on his own.  I pulled back, and we were like roommates for a while as I got myself sorted.  I was cordial but did not tell him I loved him, I did not seek his thoughts and opinions on things, I was not cold, but not overly arm.  He had to decide how he wanted me in his life, and I would treat him in kind.  I think this is just something high drama relationships have to do to get past these horrible sections of dysregulation.  It was no fun, but we got past it and things are much better now, so there is hope that you can get through the tunnel into some light.

I think you would be really helped by finding someone you can talk to about this, if not a T, then clergy or someone in such a  capacity where they are not friends or family who have to interact with both of you.  Removing those additional relationships makes you freer to talk.  You need to take care of you, and let the relationship take care of itself. 

How much do you interact with your H?  How is he overall?  Distant?  Caring at times but inconsistent?  What seem to be common triggers, now? 

[Pier68]

Hi isilme

Thanks for chiming in. As you know it really helps to know others are in the same boat. I’m very sorry to learn you were literally at the end of your ability to cope. I’m not there, but I’m living with bouts of anxiety and sadness. Today is one of those days because Husband and I messed up last night.

He wanted to have sex. I wanted clarity about where we stand in our relationship – I need to know he’s not with anyone else -- before I took that next step. He got mad that I accused him of screwing around and now he’s ghosting me.

I know what I want. The reality is I cannot have it with him. My life alone and my life in an “ideal” relationship are drawn up to look very different from what I must aim for with him. My life with Husband has less interactions with others. I’m fairly social, we used to be church-goers, and family is very important to me.

Yes, I’m a roommate to him. Like you, I am kind, but I don’t say “I love you.” I’m no more likely to tell him than a male co-worker.  Honestly my friends and colleagues treat me better than he does.

I’m learning to stop myself from asking for his input on things and or even sharing my day-to-day anecdotes. In counselling he asked me not to talk about my job. That was very odd to me then but makes sense now, because its all very triggering for him. He doesn’t want to hear about work or my extended family. He doensn't want to interact with those people, either, and he has very derogative nicknames for them, even people he's never met.

Husband and I watch a lighthearted show together three nights per week, often a comedy or reality singing competition that we both enjoy.

He is caring at times, but that is unusual. If he cleans the kitchen, or brings me a beverage, for example it’s a really big deal. I'm never complimented for all the cooking, cleaning, and yardwork I do. In fact, I'm usually criticized for some part of it. When he does a chore around the house, he is rage-propelled half of the time, loud and foul-mouthed. He’ll organize a cupboard because someone put a pot on the wrong shelf or he’ll trim a tree because he got poked by a branch.

His ability to show me caring is limited to what he’d do for a stranger or work colleague.  If I’m sick, injured, or stressed, he gets mad at whomever gave me the virus or at my employer for abusing me. He may insist I go to the ER instead of him bringing me some Tylenol. On the other hand, he wants my undivided attention while he repeats a list of all of the ways he gets treated like a slave at his part-time job.

The exception to all of this is holidays or special events he plans. Red letter days are a big deal to Husband; he will decorate the house, make a special meal, and buy me gifts. He cannot bear to be apart on holidays. He wants to create the scene and take lots of pics.

There have been some explosive exceptions. He ruined the last birthday I had with all our kids. He used the gathering to confront them all on their “terrible” behaviour. The day of my father’s funeral he slapped one of our teenagers because they were moody. A high school graduation was unbearable; he made a scene and refused to let the teen interact with their friends at the banquet. Those memories are burned into my brain; those days will never come again.

Yes, I'm bitter. I want my husband back.

[Radcliff]

Pier68,

I can personally relate to your feelings of disappointment at not being able to have the marriage you wish you could have, after many years together.  I am so sorry.  Facing that some of our most important dreams have not come true is not something we can just shake off.  It hurts deep down.

You are working on redefining your expectations for your marriage.  That certainly seems like a reasonable thing to do.  But I'm wondering if it's time just yet to do that.  Often, when people arrive here, they find that they have a good amount of opportunity to learn coping skills to improve their relationship, then after they've been at it for a while, learning the tools and seeing how much improvement they've gotten, it can be a better time to evaluate.

What have your sources of info on BPD been?  Have you read any books or otherwise seen some of the coping tools?

He wanted to have sex. I wanted clarity about where we stand in our relationship – I need to know he’s not with anyone else -- before I took that next step. He got mad that I accused him of screwing around and now he’s ghosting me.

Can you describe the interaction above to us in more detail?  What he said, what you said, and so on?  I'm not challenging the boundary you set at all, but if you lead us through how this conversation went there may be some ways to help a similar conversation go better the next time.

WW

[Pier68]

What have your sources of info on BPD been?  Have you read any books or otherwise seen some of the coping tools?

I am reading here, the book Stop Walking on Eggshells that was recommended by our marriage counsellor, plus watching a number of Youtube videos from therapists like Kati Morton and Kris Godinez and a pwBPD, Bos on MeAndMyBlackTable. Most of this is giving me background and confirmation that our marriage counsellor is on the right track regarding a possible diagnosis for Husband, but I'm just on the verge of learning what I should be doing about it. That's why I'm here, to learn my piece.

He wanted to have sex. I wanted clarity about where we stand in our relationship – I need to know he’s not with anyone else -- before I took that next step. He got mad that I accused him of screwing around and now he’s ghosting me.

Can you describe the interaction above to us in more detail?  What he said, what you said, and so on?  I'm not challenging the boundary you set at all, but if you lead us through how this conversation went there may be some ways to help a similar conversation go better the next time.

The other day we were literally on the verge of making love for the first time in ... .six months or more? Husband had done everything right to get me into the mood which he rarely does. He usually grabs my chest or tells me straight up what he wants me to do to him. Sometimes he's comedic about it. He may always be trying to be comedic? None of those things turn me on and I tell him that over and over and over. He knows what I need and like. He's rarely kind or gentle anymore -- I miss the man I married -- but he was this time. At the possibility of penetration I asked if he'd use a condom. He stared at me blankly. After a while of him processing what I asked, he wanted to know why I was asking for that. He was reasonable but surprised. I said I wanted to be safe because I wasn't sure if we were exclusive or not. He walked away frustrated saying he couldn't believe I accused him of screwing around.

Adding background to that annecdote, a few months after we married 15 years ago I had a piece of my cervix surgically removed due to pre-cancerous cells caused by HPV. I may have got HPV from my husband or a previous partner. Neither of us were virgins when we married. I place no blame. I'm facing similar surgery again. Who knows where my infection came from, if its new or old. My doc tells me it is no proof of infidelity; my body doesn't rid itself of HPV like it should. I've got a few other concerns with my lady parts that could be nothing, could be normal aging, or could be something worth worrying about. I'm going through tests. I place no blame, but I am worried about my health.

Based on experience, I cannot tell Husband I'm worried about my health. He will ghost me or rage to me about the unfairness of the world or the dirty men I must have slept with before him or while we were "on a break." He rarely, like one percent of the time?, will care for me when I am sick, injured, or stressed.

He admits he was dating three years ago. He was caught while we were "on a break." I have not received confirmation of his monogamy since. He tells me I should "know what working on a marriage" means. He will not put that into words with me or a counsellor. He wants me to do that. Two months ago when I was trying to formalize our in-house separation with him in counselling he walked away. Eventhough we do have what looks like and acts like an in-house separation, a roommate situation, he acts like he doesn't want that.

I know from our conversations and his behaviour that he does want:

- sex with me, for me to initiate physical affection and verbal affirmation
- to be liked and admired by others

Pier68

[Radcliff]

Pier68,

That's great that you're doing the reading and working on yourself!  The combination of books and this board is powerful.  The books give good depth and breadth of coverage.  The support on this board is instrumental for actually putting the book learning into practice in the "real world" and dealing with the confusion, bumps, and disappointment that sometimes ensues.  And the tools on this board are excellent was well.  I have heard good things about Randi Krieger's The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tools and Techniques to Stop Walking on Eggshells."

I'm sorry to hear about the HPV, and certainly understand all of your concerns.  Best wishes for all test results and outcomes to be as good as possible!

You were in a tough situation.  Obviously it was not the optimum moment to introduce a potentially controversial topic, but you put safety first, and that's never the wrong choice.  You'll have to catch it next time.  What are the chances that he simply didn't have a condom handy?  Could his strong reaction be a smokescreen for being caught unprepared?  Simply being surprised could explain the reaction, but if he didn't have a condom his frustration and embarrassment may have been even higher.  Years ago in a college sex ed lecture, I remember them telling the class that if the guy is reluctant to put on a condom, having the woman do it can be a good option -- it can be made part of foreplay, and the woman is in control and knows the job was done right   You'll also want to have your own supply handy, though you may not want to surprise him with it

Any clues about why he did all the right things with you that one time?  Can those circumstances be recreated somehow?

Might there be a chance to rewrite history a little bit, and tell him what a cuddly stud he was, how romantic, etc., and apologize for surprising him at the last minute?  Even laugh at the awkwardness?  With some diplomacy and careful word choice perhaps you could make him feel better, without undermining your desire to use a condom in the future.  As you know, confidence and feeling attractive is a big deal for guys.  For a guy with BPD, a crash and burn in the bedroom may evoke a shame response, with could lead to avoidance.  Some ego repair might help get things back on track sooner.

WW

[Pier68]

Randi Krieger's The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tools and Techniques to Stop Walking on Eggshells.

Thanks, Wentworth. I'll look for that.

Any clues about why he did all the right things with you that one time?  Can those circumstances be recreated somehow?

It was my payday so I took him shopping and out for dinner. Spring is coming and we were talking about projects around the house we want to do. He enjoys planning and shopping for those things. He was in a good mood. Putting him into a good mood usually requires shopping, a vacation, or watching a show. He wants to escape reality. Much of everyday life is triggering for him.

I usually am careful to remind him that we can’t afford to fund all our ideas and that we need to prioritize. His impulsive spending has been a big issue in our marriage; for a few years now I've had a separate bank account so the basics are covered out of my pay. [/quote]

For a guy with BPD, a crash and burn in the bedroom may evoke a shame response, with could lead to avoidance.  Some ego repair might help get things back on track sooner.

He frequently crashes and burns with me sexually because he's not the man I married anymore. He is more angry and verbally abusive, has poor hygiene, has taken up smoking again, and is not gentle when he touches me. I'm never sure about his mental or physical fidelity, either. Yes, complimenting what he did right would be a good start to fix my part in this and I'll keep my own condoms.

Pier68

[Radcliff]

Pier68,

OK, thanks for the additional information, that helps us understand better.  I can hear the disappointment in your words that intimacy isn't going so well; I'm very sorry about that.  Are there any shows you can watch that work as well as shopping to put him in a good mood?  (I think I know the answer to this one  )

Let us know how the complimenting goes!

You said you're in the beginning stages of learning about BPD, and are busy reading books and this site.  Are there any tools you've tried using?  Any that you're about to try?  Any situations you're wondering how to apply tools to?

WW