Wife grabbed me and slapped me in the face

[RolandOfEld]

Hi all, quick update, this morning I just had an argument with my wife and she grabbed me and slapped me in the face. On my way to work I went to the police station and tried to get it on record but they suggested that unless I wanted a restraining order I should go to the family court for suggestions on how to manage the situation. They didn't seem too willing to let me file any report.

I got a photo of the mark while it was still fresh and stopped by a doctor to get a medical report on it, but they said I needed to go to a hospital or public health bureau to do it. The mark had pretty much faded by then and I have meetings at work I can't miss today, so I couldn't get the medical report.

For the boundaries side, I wanted to ask everyone if I should tell my wife I went to the police? Or should I keep this private since I'm playing the long game? I didn't have any real result today besides introducing myself and the situation to the police and getting some insights on how to handle it legally in this country. At best I could tell her I reported her behavior to the police. I'm not sure I'm ready to let them actually arrest her.  

~ROE

[Radcliff]

Hi Roland,

I'm sorry to hear about the incident.  I'm going to answer for the United States, and rely on you to do the translation.  If you were in the U.S. I would say absolutely file a police report.  Then follow up and get the report number and a copy of the report, and give a copy to your lawyer.  Documented assault incidents, with evidence, can be rare and precious enough to telling the story of a male victim that you don't want to miss one.  If I were dealing with a police department in the U.S. that was trying to give me the brush-off, I'd adopt a strategy I've sometimes used for dealing with bureaucrats -- go in, ask for exactly what you want, something you know is safely within their power to grant and your right to ask for, and remain super polite, but firm.  Since you have a specific request, they eventually may calculate that the easiest way to get rid of you is to do what you ask.  If you can manage a unique combination of charm, deference, and firmness, you can sometimes pull it off.  You can even adopt some of their logic.  Say that you may want a restraining order soon, and are gathering evidence for it while you try to get your wife some help. 

Regarding boundaries, safety comes first, and that means taking action as quickly as possible to stop the violence.  Your wife needs to know the consequence now, not later.  So I would tell her.  Be prepared for blowback, and a serious amount of FOG -- potentially rising to new levels.  Remember, you are not betraying her, you are just refusing to shield her from the natural consequences of her actions for any longer.

Another documentation thing you should consider is e-mailing the photo and a description of the event to a friend, I'm thinking preferably one in that country who can communicate if necessary about when the photo was received.  You can also start up a special e-mail account just for documentation and e-mail it to yourself.  The idea is to time-stamp the photo and your documentation.  Going to the doctor, as you said, is also good.  They can document DV in your charts.

This is tough stuff, but you can get to the other side of it! 

WW

[Skip]

What happened? What was the fight about? How did it escalate to a slap?

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WW and thank you for the suggestions and I will reply in more detail later.

Hi Skip, the fight was about our upstairs neighbors who let their kids run around until after 11 pm and the noise drives us crazy. We have complained to them multiple times over the years, asked the landlord for help. All to no avail. It is quite bad but my for wife with her BPD and extreme sensitivity to noise (she sometimes can't be around me eating) it's really intolerable. I'll admit she's been more proactive on it than me, but that's also largely because every time I suggest having a calm, neighborly discussion with the parents about it since its always the grandparents that answer the door, but every time she says no. 

Let me note that we live in an area with strong mob activity and our neighbor is best pals with the local neighborhood politician. I think provoking them could potentially get us thrown out of the building. This apartment was a true find considering the space we get for the price and the convenience and affordable within my salary.   

So this morning she wanted me to ring their buzzer early in the morning in retaliation. I did it once before but thought it was a stupid and possibly dangerous thing to do. Today I said I wouldn't do it. I said I would go over in the evening and talk to the parents, who are slightly more sociable than the grandparents. She told me to do it right now. I said it would not be effective to explain our position by catching them either on their way out to work or still in their underwear and that I would go over during the dinner hour when I would be sure they would be home. She thought I was showing I cared more about them than her. I explained (with a drop of profanity) that I didn't care about them but that they wouldn't listen if I just ambushed them. I then left the apartment to go to work.

A second later she burst outside and grabbed me and tried to force me up the stairs to talk to them. I shrugged her off and told her to let go of me. Then she slapped me in the face and went back inside.

~ROE
     

[DaddyBear77]

ROE, first of all, I am really sorry things escalated to this point. I can absolutely relate to the idea of being forced to do something I know isn't right. Physically forcing someone crosses a line. Assaulting someone because they won't go along with physical force is another line.

In addition to everything that Wentworth has said, I'd remind you to take a look at our workshop on Domestic Violence for Men. You're being held to a different standard here, which I'm guessing is the same (or worse) in other parts of the world. I'm sure simple shrugging off isn't crossing any lines, but (and here's a quote from the article):

I think the key is to nip it in the bud - deal with it when it's "becoming physical" - don't wait til there has already been violence... .
You don't need to "win" the argument, or defend your turf.  You need to separate yourself from the person who might get physical or who might claim that you did.
Once there has been some violence, it's very hard to avoid some unpleasant fallout, even if nobody got hurt badly.  Much better to see it coming and take action to keep it from getting bad, and then figure out where to go from there.

To that end, review the lessons on JADE and consider your options the next time this situation comes up.

And, repeating what others have said - document, document, document.

[SlyQQ]

To a casual observer it seems you have not focused on what you are trying to accomplish,

?

If you know your goal or what you are trying to achieve from a given incident it becomes more easy

to formulate a plan and receive advice and weigh the consequences

[Radcliff]

Roland,

I had a fair bit of experience with my wife inciting me to do battle for her, which I did sometimes to appease her.  Almost invariably, it ended up harming relationships (with contractors, service providers, etc.) and made me look like an unreasonable jerk when I went beyond where my own internal compass said things should be.  My wife was free to have unreasonable expectations, and I suffered the consequences of her unreasonableness.  I eventually realized how unhealthy this was, and stopped being willing to do this.  A related thing was when my wife was very upset with one of the children, and she wanted me to deliver the punishment -- usually one that I thought was too excessive.  I realized that she got to control what happened, and I took the consequences in my relationship with the child.  I found a few of those incidents so unsettling that I learned how to stand my ground.

Looking back with what I've learned since, I realize that these incidents are a form of protecting the pwBPD from the consequences of their own actions.  And we know that's a troublesome way for things to go.

Let us know how it goes when you tell your wife tonight about the police.  :)on't give her a complicated "police referred me to family court" story.  Just say you reported it, and if it never happens again, it will go no further.  Any time it happens again, you will report.  No drama.  Just like with kids, consequences shouldn't be delivered with drama or a lecture, since that gives negative attention, and any attention, even negative, is a reward.  Just mention it and move on.  Might be good to have the next topic queued up in your mind, something bright and shiny.  She might follow your lead, or might get dramatic.  She may lay the FOG on thick.  :)on't JADE.  Before you tell her, have your work clothes for tomorrow packed and in a safe place.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

DB thanks for the workshop, which I think I have avoided until now. But it's time to face what's happening.

SlyQQ my goal is to get her to face the problem and into treatment but separate from her if she doesn't. I am setting boundaries (this is the second time I've brought in the police recently), and I've been doing extensive documenting and have already spoken with a lawyer regarding my options. I'm still praying for rain but digging a well in the meantime.

Update, she called my work phone a few minutes ago, sounding exhausted and weak and complaining of a headache. She said "let's stop arguing." I didn't say much beyond saying we would talk later. A few minutes later she called to let me hear sounds of the kids crying. Then she hung up. She does this often.

WW I will tell her I went to the police and in the fashion you suggested. It will not be pretty. I will get my stuff safe before I tell her.

~ROE

[Radcliff]

Update, she called my work phone a few minutes ago, sounding exhausted and weak and complaining of a headache. She said "let's stop arguing." I didn't say much beyond saying we would talk later. A few minutes later she called to let me hear sounds of the kids crying. Then she hung up. She does this often.

Boundaries around work disturbances are a big deal.  I never got good at them, and the cost was high.  Can you avoid answering the phone for the rest of the work day and concentrate on work?  In the past, I've blocked my wife's number and set a timer on my phone to remind me to unblock her at the end of the work day.

WW I will tell her I went to the police and in the fashion you suggested. It will not be pretty. I will get my stuff safe before I tell her.

Don't tell her in the kitchen.  Don't retreat to a bathroom where you can be trapped.  Keep your phone with you.  Do you know the audio recording laws were you live?  In the U.S. most states only require the consent of one party to record.  A few require both parties to consent.  Even if you are not sure of the laws, you might want to record anyway (it may be helpful to defend yourself against false claims even if it is not allowable for prosecution).  Another thing to consider is to start video recording, and simply video record your shoe and bring up the camera if she approaches to assault you.  Keep in mind, that if she sees recording, it will escalate things.  If you are bumbling or distracted with recording devices, she'll pick up on it, and it will interfere with your aim of clearly communicating a boundary.  Recording is not a requirement, just an option.  Job#1 is boundary communication.

WW

[SlyQQ]

Definitely where there are no ready implements available and perhaps in the presence of a third party,

unless you are "collecting evidence"

[RolandOfEld]

WW, usually I would unplug my work phone and turn off my cell, not ideal but I don't get an excessive amount of calls on my work phone. She didn't call too much today. I can sense she's exhausted. Her fault. I will still tell her about the police. And I will go over to the neighbor's before going home and communicate with them my way, with or without her support. She cannot handle this maturely and our apartment is at stake.

I think it's no issue to record since the lawyer encouraged me to record.

In terms of a third party, the only person I can think at this point to bring in is her sister. Which could backfire if her sister defends her. I will keep thinking about this.

~ROE

[formflier]

Do you have recorder app on your phone?  If not... get one.  Keep this private... .but in high stress things... .like telling her about the police.  Have it running.

It's important that you can back up your version of events.

I would add that when you tell her about the police... work in the phrasing "a very serious matter... "

Let's be clear... .has this ever happened before?  Has she ever slapped you before?  If this is first time... that needs to be part what you say to her... .that a boundary was crossed... .it's very serious... .and you took action. 
Very important to also show grace and pathway to redemption"


"If it never happens again... .it doesn't need to go any further."

Let's switch gears... let's rank things.

1.  The most important take away (IMO) is to let your wife fight her battles in her way
2.  You fight your battles in your way.

Get that clear in your head... .let's practice ways you can gently... yet firmly... .communicate that.

FF

[RolandOfEld]

*Update*

On my way home from work my wife messaged me I needed to be home within an hour because she was going to the hospital. I was almost sure this was a tactic to guilt me out of responding to her hitting me but still had some small concerns since she once had a brain aneurysm and nearly died and we are always concerned about this happening again. So I got home and found her asleep in bed with the kids in front of a cartoon. I woke her up and asked her wasn't she going to the hospital. She rolled out of bed, very silent and grim, and left. All very dramatic.

When she came home a few hours later I repeatedly asked what was happening, to which she just responded "Like you would care. You've never cared about me." Some arguing, then I left the room to start my recorder and she went into the bathroom. I told her about the police, pretty much using WW's phrasing word for word. She said she didn't care and called me a selfish a*hole for telling her this after she just came back from the hospital. I told her I couldn't help her if she didn't tell me what was wrong. She grabbed a bunch of stuff and left the house then reappeared a few hours later. I was taking a bath when she got home and she burst in and said oh look who's enjoying himself and that I obviously cared about her so much. She then proceeded to repeatedly turn off the bathroom light from outside. I gave up and bathed in darkness. Then she locked me out of the bedroom. I slept in the living room on a mat. Actually I didn't mind it so much as I like sleeping alone sometimes. Fearing she would sneak out and leave me with the kids unable to go to work, I got up at 5:30 and had myself ready in case she tried. She didn't, and I got to work. I checked the recorder and it didn't get much besides me telling her I went to the police and her calling me a selfish a*hole. I am exhausted.

I still have some concerns about why she went to the hospital but am 90% convinced it's mostly for show. No idea what today will bring but at least I'm safe at work for the moment.

FF the physical abuse has been going on almost since the beginning but this is the first time I ever did anything about it. I have never hit back. The most violent I have ever been towards her was throwing a blanket at her.

~ROE

[Radcliff]

Roland, good work.  I'm glad to hear that things went safely.  No worries about not catching more on the recording.  Remember to steer by your priorities.  Safety first.  Collecting evidence is secondary.  A safe day with no evidence collected is a fine day.

The important thing now is to be consistent in enforcing the boundary.  Any time she hits you, go to the police.  Have you read about the psychology term called "intermittent reinforcement?"

Write down flipping the lights and locking you out of the bedroom in your journal.  I was just reading my journal to prepare for a therapist meeting last night.  It's tough to read, but helpful.  Even if the police don't care about some of the low level stuff, it all adds up, and you and your therapist care about it.  I accumulated so many incidents in my journal, when I read my journal summary last night, it reminded me why I have a restraining order and am considering ending my marriage.  Things were bad, and it was the low level controlling stuff, not feeling safe, that was the worst.

There is a good chance she was at the library and not the hospital.  Will you see a bill at some point?  I wouldn't spend much energy worrying about it.

WW

[Radcliff]

Roland,

Can you remind us what DV support resources you have?  Am I remembering correctly that you are working with a service agency that has provided you with a therapist and a lawyer?  Does this agency understand domestic violence?  Is your therapist experienced in working with victims?  What advice have your therapist and lawyer had about your options and tools for stopping the abuse?  Have you had a chance to ask your lawyer whether or not you can file a police report?

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi ROE,

So sorry you had to experience that. I have also experienced violence before when uBPDh demanded I confront people in a manner I considered unacceptable. He always seemed to feel that if I didn't handle the matter in the way he wanted me to, then that meant I was "siding with them"- whoever it was that he wanted me to confront. He always demanded that I do it as some sort of "proof of love and loyalty", but the way he wanted me to confront others was crazy. I completely understand what you went through.

I also think your wife probably is using the hospital excuse as a "sympathy card" to distract you from her actions and get you to feel sorry for her. Also maybe to set you up as the "bad guy", because then she can say something like "what kind of person calls the police on a woman who just went to the hospital." It's manipulation. Also been there, done that.

Update, she called my work phone a few minutes ago, sounding exhausted and weak and complaining of a headache. She said "let's stop arguing."

I think it is very telling that she refers to the fact that she tried to physically force you to confront the neighbors when you clearly had stated when and how you would and would not be willing to handle the matter, then slapped you in the face, as the two of you "arguing"- a word that implies that both of you were at fault and that the situation was not as serious as it was. This is minimalization and failure to accept personal responsibility.


I know this is terribly distressing ROE. Hugs and prayers for strength and safety are being sent your way.    

Blessings,

Redeemed

[RolandOfEld]

WW from my understanding so far the DV laws in this country largely mirror the US, but on a cultural level the attitude is totally different regarding violence and what is "abuse" in general, especially towards men. Even the legislature here is famous for fist fights and people throwing shoes at each other, both men and women. And police are not good at enforcing the laws. There is far too much wiggle room on everything. Legally speaking I have rights but culturally I'm still at a disadvantage and I need to remember this. I will keep working on this with my counselor, lawyer, and the local police to see what I can do.

Thank you, Redeemed and I now believe this is exactly what happened.

To update on the situation, yesterday my wife sent me a beautifully written email about how I'm selfish and not the sensitive husband I used to be and why its time we went our separate ways since she needs to be free to restart her life. She does this every time I try to hold her accountable for bad behavior. I wrote the following email back, which may be a good reference to other members in this kind of situation:

------------

"We have three roads we can walk.

1) If you want to move out and are willing to support yourself, I will not try to stop you. I will be the primary caregiver and we can work out a co-parenting schedule. Your time with them might be limited.

2) If you stay and these behaviors continue, I will continue to report them to the police and it will probably end with you being arrested. I am not doing this to hurt or take revenge against you, but only to protect myself and the kids. To be clear on what behaviors I mean:
- Being violent towards the kids or me
- Stealing or destroying my personal belongings
- Drinking to the point of being drunk while taking care of the kids; passing out while taking care of them
- Insulting or making fun of me, referencing my dead family members; including the kids in these behaviors

3) There is a better path. You stay and attend DBT skills training classes at XXXX Hospital. The instructors are all female and were specially trained in DBT at the University of Washington in Seattle. The class is held Wednesdays at 7:30 pm and is covered by insurance. You will have my full love and support if you chose this option.

The third option is much better for everyone. Its not guaranteed to fix our marriage but at least you will have a better relationship with the children even if we still separate. I strongly suggest you think deeply about the above before you make a decision."

------

She wrote back about how all that abuse was in the past (she hit me two days ago) and I was being immature to focus on it. She pointed out how the main reason she wanted to leave was my poor sexual performance and how I should seek help about it. She then group texted our former marriage counselor to tell her we were separating because the frustration of being an at home mom had led her to do things like shred my clothes and hit me (she admitted it!).

By the time I got home she had normalized. At one point she quietly asked me a few questions about DBT, which I explained to her was skills training, not psychotherapy, and that I myself had even done a few video courses on it. She didn't bring it up again, but perhaps I planted a seed.

~ROE

[SlyQQ]

Point 1 seems somewhat optimistic do you have any basis to believe you will be given primary custody and not have to provide support,

as do points 2 and 3

[Panda39]

I still have some concerns about why she went to the hospital but am 90% convinced it's mostly for show. No idea what today will bring but at least I'm safe at work for the moment.

Just as an aside, my SO's uBPDex would go to the hospital when she felt triggered and overwhelmed.  I think part of it was that she couldn't self sooth so she'd go get "taken care of" at the hospital and I also think it was a sort of time out to figure out what she was going to do next.

Panda39

[Harley Quinn]

Hi ROE,

Whilst I'm sorry to hear that you've had another incident to contend with, I am happy to find that you are remaining calm and collected about your approach to this.

I think your email was a stellar move.     

From what I understand, you now have a reply to your email which doesn't deny the abuse, in fact says it was all in the past (still an admission) and a text message which you were copied on where she admits two behaviours which are intolerable.  Are you able to back up this evidence or forward it to your L quickly in case it is accessed and removed / phone stolen or broken? 

Love and light x

[Radcliff]

Roland,

Your e-mail is assertive and speaks with clarity.  That is good.  Writing an e-mail comes with risks because you may see it later in court, but you were very careful.  Interesting that it generated some responses from her that will be good to document.

One thing that I found with my experiences was that as I started to assert myself against the abuse, I struggled with how controlling to be.  When we deal with DV, we may attempt to assert more control that would would in a "pure" BPD situation.  This may work.  It may not.  Be mindful of the limitations and potential backlash.

You've planted the seed regarding DBT.  If the topic comes up again, one of the most effective ways to motivate someone to get help is to express your love, your desire for them to be happy, and your belief that a particular path will really help them.  It's a delicate game.  Less can be more, since sometimes our pwBPD do the opposite of what we ask in order to prove their independence.

WW

[juju2]

Am so sorry you are going thru this.

I was hit twice, in the left arm, he punched hard, two different times, like 6 yrs ago.  Each time I had gotten into an argument w him, and didn't have tools.

I didn't know to not escalate, all of the other tools here.  I knew he had BPD, and he is high functioning.

I agree w Sly, focus on what you want.

I see now, that by escalating arguments w my pwBPD, I was putting myself on a bad position.

I should have de-escalated, and then said, I need to take a walk, or somehow removed myself.

Once he got that angry, the only safe thing for me is to get away, take a walk.  I am not a victim, I just didn't know.  He could get so angry in such a short time, it bewildered me.  Wish I had this community then!

Hang in there, 

j

[RolandOfEld]

SlyQQ I am working on the custody issue with a lawyer and the local police. It's not strong in my favor since I'm both and man and a foreigner in this country, but if I get enough evidence all things are possible.

Panda39 I too think my wife was trying to buy time and space since she knew I might take action this time.

Thanks HQ and all the evidence goes straight to my work PC and the cloud, nothing stays on my phone.

WW I want to go the loving route even though my heart is short on love these days. But you're right that the more I force, the less likely she is to go, or at least continue going.

juju6860 thank you for sharing and I'm sorry you had to experience violence as well.

~ROE