Part TWO - Conflict Receding but still a lot of navigation to be done.

[sladezy]

Hey guys this is a continuation from my previous post. The link for that post is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321135.0
Maybe a mod might need to past the link to this thread into the old one please ? I'll paste my last comment here and continue on from there. Hopefully Joe, Lighthouse and Wentworth find there way over here in time along with any others that might be able to help with my slight change in situation.  

Hey,

So there has been a development today. She contacted wanting to know what I was doing over the Easter long weekend because she wasn't working. I mentioned a few things and she said she wanted to join because she doesn't get to take the kids to fun things through the week. I'm weary she never suggested anything about seeing or spending time with me, only with the kids. I let her know she was welcome to join us any time she wanted n haven't heard anything since. (which I'm OK with) this conversation stemmed from me sending a couple of photos from the weekend with the kids. I'm worried about her intention or lack or intentions, giving up or sharing my time with the kids is a potential chance at reconciliation and reuniting but its also a chance for her to remind me that nothing has changed and this is all for the kids. In which case I kind of feel like going places together may be confusing the kids, thinking are we together are we not together ? since they have not seen us together bar drop offs for almost 3 months now. Is continuing to remain jovial and not engaging in conflict more likely to let her open up at her own pace or will it be a discussion that needs to be had at some point in time? Also I guess she might just be missing family time and want to experience that again even if its brief. I feel like afterwards she may just disappear back into her "busy schedule" she has created for herself.

The rest is just answering some questions for Wentworth :P    

I see what you're saying about the 60 second date but not sure I understand what kinds of things to say or do when our discussions usually a debriefing about the kids,I feel like personal questions regarding herself won't be as welcome in discussions but I guess I will find out this weekend.

The soiled clothes were left in the bag at the daycare then passed from her to me where I found them n cleaned them. I was only making her awear to check in there incase there's others in future. Still not a great topic to talk about.

I'm not struggling with any specific tasks with the kids just the shear volume of work and attention required to keep them happy while still trying to service my own needs between work n them.if anything I think I'm losing time.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

sladezy,

I followed the breadcrumbs and managed to find you 

On the 60 second date, I agree, there's not a heck of a lot of chance to make the conversation about her, and she might not want to.  It's mostly about eye contact and attentiveness.  You want to be looking into her eyes, not away from her at the kids.  You'll want her to see you greet the kids warmly, but then your eyes are on her.  If she happens to look nice, you can compliment her.  If you think she'll be suspicious of a compliment, you can use an engagement technique called "neutral observation."  You just say something like "Hey, you're wearing the blue sweater today."  It shows you're paying attention to her, and it's factual, which makes it less likely she'll disagree (as long as you know your colors  )

Great news about Easter, b.t.w.!  Don't sweat the fact that she didn't say she wanted to see you.  Did you want this to be easy?  (OK, don't answer that  )  Seriously, though, she's not going to admit that she might not mind spending time with you.  What are your plans for the weekend?  Advance planning is good.  Snacks and drinks for the kids to keep them happy, wear her favorite shirt, exercise and sleep well beforehand, get a haircut, blah, blah, blah.  Don't overreach.  Just make it a pleasant time with the kids and the two of you.  In a relationship, the one going slower has the power.  Be receptive if she reaches out, and respond enough to make her feel good, but don't go rushing in.  If everyone has fun, and nothing is said of the relationship, that's a smashing success.  If she feels safe with no pressure, a second "date" with the kids is more likely.

WW

[sladezy]

Hey Wentworth,

Not sure if you will get a chance to respond to this before the weekend. Nothing is set in stone but on the cards is a visit with her family (which I would have taken the kids to anyway but she wants to attend)  and there was mention of taking the kids to the local Reptile Park for a day trip. Honestly I'm in two minds about it taking place. Obviously she's welcome at her family event but doing something else on my time with the kids just seems suspicious to me and has a high level to cause me hightened and continued grief. Remembering I had told her I wasn't interested in associating with her unless she's prepared to address our issues (which she isn't)  so it kind of feels like my boundary is being tested and walked on. While I can see the positives on taking things easy and going the long way around its hard not to feel like I'll just be taken advantage of again. She didn't want to work to have the family life vut now wants to reap the benefits of having a family outting on my time no less.

Kinda hoping you could put things into perspective and help restore my faith in this being a positive thing and not a mistake.

[Tattered Heart]

It sounds like you are really hesitant about her joining your family time on your time. At the same time she has been told that she is more than welcome at all family events. Which would you prefer? Either way it's important that you choose one or the other so she knows where clear lines are. Often the anxiety lies in the indecision.

I think deep down you know which direction to go with Easter weekend plans but are unsure how to execute it. Which will it be?

[sladezy]

It sounds like you are really hesitant about her joining your family time on your time. At the same time she has been told that she is more than welcome at all family events. Which would you prefer? Either way it's important that you choose one or the other so she knows where clear lines are. Often the anxiety lies in the indecision.

I think deep down you know which direction to go with Easter weekend plans but are unsure how to execute it. Which will it be?

Drawing her back in or getting her to open up is something I've been working on by removing the conflict but I didn't think I'd see instant results within 2 weeks and I'm not really prepared for what to do next. I think I'm going to test the waters with it and atleast join them at a family gathering but I may not organise any activities that results in just the two of us with the kids and see what comes of it. To me it all feels very sereal and fabricated. There are clear issues and warning signs but they can't be addressed atleast not right now. Playing along to this behaviour still makes me feel like I'm walking on eggshells for some reason.

[lighthouse9]

Hey Sladezy,

I really like TH's question here about "which is it?"

Yes, this might feel fast, but it's also a chance for you to show your strength and your new set of skills. She might try to push your buttons, she might not (intentionally or not), but can you be the guy you know you'll need to be in order to make things work with her? I definitely get it that your boundaries are being tested, so maybe you need an emergency set of boundaries specific for this weekend. What would those look like, given the situation? You're not going to recommit to her in one weekend, nor is she ready to be the person who you could recommit to at the moment. So, what does interacting with her look like for now?

You can't predict her - so who are you going to be? What skills are you going to pull out of your pocket? Anything you want to practice with us?

Cheering for you dude,

-L

[sladezy]

Eh, false alarm guys she's changed her mind it seems, she contacted me asking if she can have the kids on Monday to take to her Nan's. I asked about her having intentions to join us this weekend and if it was still the case. She didn't answer instead saying that I do things with her family and noone tells her about it because she has to work and wanted to go this weekend. She made plans to do one family thing this weekend which was today and wanted to take the kids off me for the other day. I told her I cherish my time with the kids and decided not to go away with them this weekend so both family would be able to see the kids. I tried SET by saying I can see she's been busy lately, that it must be hard to find time with the kids. She asked if she could join us and I'm ok this that if she wants and if she doesn't that's ok to but at the same time I'm not prepared to give up my time with the kids. I asked to confirm that this was what she wanted in regards to the arrangement with the kids and that it suited her schedule but she didnt reply. She will be here in about 2 hours and I'll just be polite again.

She also contacted me this morning saying she has some paperwork I need to sign for the child support she has filed against me. I agreed to sign it if she bought back the list of things I'd been asking her to return. She tried to suggest I pick up the kids (she does this every week) because the list of things is long and she will forget something (it's about 5 things). I just said that she has the list she can follow and I'm sure she will do fine.

Don't really know what the heck anymore with the chopping and changing. I can see she seems to be missing quality time with the kids and with her family but this is due to the work and study she has taken on. Given this situation is what she wanted, including me having the kids every weekend because it suits her working schedule. Now this weekend because she isn't working I need to compromise my time with the kids at her desire. I feel it's important for me to remind her that this is how she wanted things and it is my time with the kids. I'm very reluctant to give her certain things. Picking the kids up because I drop them back so it's 50/50, giving up my time with the kids because I only see them for half a week now.

[Radcliff]

sladezy,

Her actions may or may not make sense in the way you are hoping that they will.  Are you able to have calm face-to-face conversations with her?  Could you meet her for coffee, not trying to influence her at all, but looking to understand how he arrangement is working for her and what she wants?

It's a good time to talk about boundaries again.  When I first read your earlier thread, a red flag went off for me, because it seemed like you were trying to use boundaries to influence her behavior, for example to get her to work on her stuff.  Can you tell us about that?

WW

[sladezy]

Wentworth,

I don't really think I could enter back into a relationship with her unless we are genuinely seeking help together. I'm ok to get things back into a good state and hope things go that way but beyond that I don't think I can for my own mental health sake. We can talk face to face about it but I don't really think it would end well because the fact is she doesn't know what she wants and even if she's able to tell me what she wants today the following week that will have changed again and I can't allow her to keep chopping and changing the kids routine to meet her needs. She needs to meet theirs not the other way around.

[sladezy]

Gone back to working on myself and the kids, lost sight of the prize to be honest. She still seems interest in the kids n what they are doing but not prepared to assess her schedule to accommodate more time with them (if that time includes me anyway). I feel like her actions contradict her words but I can't get her to open up about it as she shuts it down by justifying it in a fairly half arsed way.

The kids are missing her alot this week especially the 3 year old but I know I can't tell my ex that.

[Radcliff]

sladezy,

OK, thanks for the clarification.  You are describing a "correct" use of boundaries -- you are stating that it is your limit on your own behavior not to jump back in if she is not getting help.  It sounds like another one of your boundaries is maintaining a consistent schedule and not getting thrown around by her turbulence which does seem like a good idea, especially with young kids.

Hope you're having a good Easter weekend.  Is hunting for Easter eggs or coloring Easter eggs an activity you plan with your kids?

WW

[sladezy]

Hi,

Yes we did an easter egg hunt and went out for breakfast. We had a great day aside from the fact their mother didn't bother to call. I'm in a pretty furious state right now. I feel like I'm in a tail spin I'm not going to come out of.

I'm being attacked for not suggesting to her the kids might like a call on easter or letting her know what the plans were, when I made ample attempts to see if she would join the kids which she declined. It's my fault because when I contacted her mother and friend about it hoping they would check in on her, I contacted them so that they would bitch at her and I was judging her. She said she's never celebrated easter and it wasn't a big deal... .I told her she was right it's not a big deal for us bit we've always celebrated it for the kids. Then she wanted to just give up the "fight" and move on. I told her I wasn't fighting with her and I was only contacting her family so they might check in with her and that I can't control how they chose to act. Im pushing to have the kids back to 5 nights the way it was but I don't think she's going to like it.

I'm at the point where I think I'm almost ready to say come back to the doctors with me n see a psychiatrist or we're going to court. Don't know what good that will do me but I'm able to bury her on a number of fronts if I really had to. I know this behaviour is anti productive but I'm really honestly running out of options. Yes I'm still somewhat angry n frustrated put this happened 6 hours ago so I'm had time to calm n think more clearly and this really seems what it's coming to now.

[Radcliff]

sladezy, the current situation sounds frustrating and upsetting, to be sure.

The good news, i.m.h.o., is that there are likely to be a couple of areas where you can improve things by changing things you control directly.

I think you said you'd read "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend?  Am I remembering correctly?  In the things you describe in your most recent post, are there any areas where you might have been overstepping her boundaries, trying to be responsible for things she should own?

WW

[sladezy]

Honestly Wentworth I'm at the end of my rope. I've found a patience I didn't know I possessed through this ordeal but my patience grows tried with every emotion that I suppress / ignore. I feel like it's building up until I snap. The communication techniques I've learnt just get me attacked for something else or dismissed or explained away by illogical answers and around in circles we go. Honestly I'm not sure I even want to reunite anymore. I'm still processing the effects on me. She couldn't even call the kids on easter then tried to make it anybody else's fault but her own. Mainly my fault. This kind of uninvolvement and neglect of the kids is extremely unattractive and unappealing to me. She tried to say she's never celebrated easter ( we have every year) and didn't know it was such a big deal until today. That I didn't invite her to anything (even though I did).

I've read stop walking on eggshells and I'm half way through the high conflict couple. Next I have the power of now as a way to work on myself only. I did mentions boundries and it's next on my list but I am a slow reader. I can only manage a chapter a night usually and not every night.

[Radcliff]

Hi sladezy,

OK, then a high priority is reducing your frustration levels and reducing wasted energy.  Boundaries can help with this.  If you're used to feeling like you're the only functioning person in the relationship, it's easy to try to carry your burdens as well as hers.  This is exhausting.  Calling two of her family members to try to get her to do what she was responsible for is a prime example of this.  You expended extra energy, and exposed yourself to negativity from three separate people for getting involved.  Part of boundaries is not taking ownership for something someone else ought to own.  It can mean letting them fail, which is hard to watch.  We don't do it with vindictiveness or pleasure in watching them fail, but with the knowledge that if we keep covering for them, we're both perpetuating the myth that we're responsible for all failures, and we're also preventing them from learning from the consequences of their actions.

One other thing that can be very helpful is to separate out near term stumbles from what you're looking for in the long term.  Regardless of whether you get back together with her, you've got a long term goal for your kids to have a the best relationship possible with a mom who is as functional as possible.  If she stumbles or lets them down here and there on the way to that long term goal, that may be something that you have to let happen.  It doesn't prevent you from providing a friendly assist every so often, like a "non" might do for another "non," but she has to own her stuff.

Can you think of any caretaking behaviors you can back away from that might leave ownership more firmly with her for her stuff, and let you relax a bit?

I completely understand your point about her feeling unattractive to you as a partner if she is not stepping up for your kids.  Have you thought about switching into a "neutral" energy preservation mode, where you continue with neutral to slightly warm interactions as a cordial parenting partner, but free yourself from worrying about the future of the relationship for a certain period of time, concentrating on smooth co-parenting with appropriate boundaries?

WW

[sladezy]

Wentworth, she simply will not own her own stuff, that's too logical for her, as I said there is an excuse or someone else causing everything to happen. I contacted her mum and friend as a way of saying "here is a prime example of what I'm really dealing with, help me deal with this before its to late"

I was being neutral for the last 3 weeks that's what lead us to her asking to spend time with us in the first place, then backing out and not contacting them on Easter. I can't keep this back n forth sharade up for the rest of the kids lives. I don't know what I'm going to do. Time to back away and start again? It seems so fake and fabricated.

[Radcliff]

Wentworth, she simply will not own her own stuff, that's too logical for her, as I said there is an excuse or someone else causing everything to happen.

Understood.  It can be beyond frustrating to watch, especially if it involves your kids.  Maybe she will eventually start owning more of her stuff, maybe she won't.  But (and I'm speaking generally here, not pointing at you in particular) if we try to manage things to recover for them, we exhaust ourselves and prevent them from learning lessons.  If we get out of the way, we definitely save ourselves exhaustion, and they may start owning their own stuff, but that's not our responsibility.

A big part of this is that you're getting more parenting than you bargained for.  You signed up to do this with a 50/50 partner, and that's not what you got.  ":)isappointment" doesn't begin to describe it.  I'm not sure what the best polite word is.  It's certainly not fair, and I'm sorry.

I contacted her mum and friend as a way of saying "here is a prime example of what I'm really dealing with, help me deal with this before its to late"

How did that go?  Does either have the potential to engage with her and be a positive, stabilizing influence without you having to direct the show?  My thoughts on this I think depend on the workload for you.  If you don't have to talk to them much, they see at least some important parts of the situation similarly, and their influence on her is helpful, that could be good.  If you are frequently communicating with them for any reason, especially for problem solving, that seems like a sign of caretaking and too much ownership/workload for you.

I was being neutral for the last 3 weeks that's what lead us to her asking to spend time with us in the first place, then backing out and not contacting them on Easter. I can't keep this back n forth sharade up for the rest of the kids lives. I don't know what I'm going to do. Time to back away and start again? It seems so fake and fabricated.

Honestly, I'm in the middle of developing a co-parenting relationship with my separated wife right now as well.  It can be super confusing.  I want us to have a cordial, constructive parenting collaboration regardless of the future of the relationship, since that's best for the kids, and I'm hoping more comfortable for us.  But I'm not sure if it's possible.  And I think both of us are confused by it, since if we're nice to each other, it makes it feel like we're getting back together.  The idea of being nice to each other and still being split apart is kind of weird and hard to wrap my head around.  Is that about where you are?

WW

[DaddyBear77]

Hey sladezy,

I'm just getting caught up with your story - I'm really sorry you're going through all of this. I can really relate to all the twisting and compromising and effort you're putting in to make sure you provide the absolute best situation for your kids. Kudos to you for that mindset.

I want to give another perspective on what I'm reading here. A great deal of what I'm reading from you seems to be a deep, consuming frustration with your wife's inability to change. She refuses to connect with her kids. She refuses to engage in productive dialog with you. She creates situation after situation that bothers the he! out of you and then steps away while you're left spinning. OH BOY can I empathize with you on this. When our daughter was first born, I can't tell you how many times I went to her mother and said "CAN'T YOU SEE THIS? CAN'T YOU SEE HOW MUCH YOUR DAUGHTER IS SCREWING THINGS UP?" This same mindset is exactly how I found "Stop Walking on Eggshells"

Here's something others have asked and I'd challenge you to really sit down and think about this:

What's important to YOU. Personally. I'm not asking things like "I want my ex to get healthy" (you can't control that). I'm not asking things like "I want my ex to care about her children" (you can't control that). Imagine that the rest of the world is doing what they're doing, and you're left to do whatever you want to do. What kind of parenting schedule do YOU want? What kind of involvement do YOU want? Do you feel comfortable with the current mutual agreement you have right now with your ex? Do you want to get some legal certainty around the situation? Are you in a good financial position? Are there things you want to improve in that regard?

My suggestion is to think all about yourself (there's a difference between thinking about yourself and being selfish - one does not lead to the other, trust me). Let us know what you come up with.

[sladezy]

daddybear, thanks for jumping in.

Sounds like you've been in a similar place to me, have things turned out better for you? The things I find important is a tough one, I'm not sure if this means mentally or physically etc. Most important to be is the health, safety and security of my family. What gives or had given me great pride was being able to provide an environment where my kids can florist, have the things they need and be happy. Will the split of my family be it permanent or temporary which is unbeknown to me at this time. It feels like my morals and believes are being threatened, compromised and torn apart. I was raised to resolve our differences and become closer and stronger for it, she unfortunately has not had a similar example set for her and the easy road seems to always be the one that is travelled (I know I can't control this). Being a provider is important to me and thus I've thrown myself into my career and achieved what I would describe as results I am proud of myself for even if that meant sacrificing some family time or being tired and overworked at time. I'm starting to realise what is truely important and adapt a healthier work life balance. Pre-children I enjoyed riding my mountain bike, video games, seeing friends more regularly, golf, woodwork, playing music (though I did stop that when I started sinking more energy into my career instead of playing in bands, drinking and doing drugs over excessively). I also enjoy animals, dogs n fish. These last few things are more hobbies and interests that I rarely have time for and there is really no time in my schedule to make the time to be overly commited to any one thing for extended periods of time, I'm mostly ok with that, I do get enjoyment and fulfillment from my career and until recently my family.

Wentworth,

I got backlash from my ex for engaging these people and now that I think about it they probably did jump down her throat. I do spend to much time keeping her mum in the loop which is good and bad, she can exaggerated messages both ways. Her friend and family seem happy to just sit back n watch the train wreck unfold which is the absolute most frustrating thing in the world. At the moment my ex plain n simply does not agree with my point of view on the matters surrounding her mental health and I feel like encouragement from her friends n family would really help even the score at the moment. I know they are there to catch her when and if she falls, I've always learnt the prevention is better than a cure.

I would say I'm in similar place to where you are in organising the children's needs. The cordial part of this for me is over shadowed by her never giving the relationship a chance to be mended and address any issues that she had, it was just seemingly fine one day and turmoil the next. I feel as if at the present time the kids needs are being met (atleast by me) and her to an extent and feel like some attention towards or relationship is due. To me the co parenting feels like the final nail in the coffin for our relationship and a very permanent solution without ever giving any consideration to the fallout and how it effects all our lives from now until forever.

Just going to conclude with an update on the situation. We had been arguing / trying to talk through some things for the last few days over text and I had mentioned I wanted the kids back an extra day. It also came up in conversation by me if she was still seeing her psychologist. I'm almost certain she had only been twice and not continued. I explained that this was upsetting for me because I felt like it wasn't been taken seriously. Anyway she told me she wanted to see the kids more not less even if that meant taking something off her loaded plate and not getting another day off me (which I think could help for her and the kids). Also that she "would soon book a session with her councillor and ask her to do a thorough check-up of her mental health and if she couldn't do it to get her to refer her to someone else, that she didn't think she has problems that I think she has but she would do it to ease my mind". I found it abit frustrating that she would describe such a think in terms of a dental appointment like something like this could be assessed in a 30 minute session. Nevertheless I didn't make comment on such a thing and took it as a positive thing. I suggested her returning to the doctor first for a referral because in the event her councillor couldn't do it she will have used up one of her rebated sessions (part of our countries medical health system). I also asked if she would like me to join her at the appointment and stated that I would like to come along and when she thinks she would have time to do go. Then followed it by saying it's not about a diagnosis it's about being our best selves for ourselves and our children but I have not heard from her since and I'm not 100% sure I will hear anymore about it. I think her thinking easter wasn't a big deal and her being told otherwise by more people then just myself has potentially raised some sort of alarm bell in her head but she may still be unable to connect the dots or atleast express that in a productive manner. What do you guys things?

Thanks for the questions it felt good getting this out.

[Radcliff]

If she got a lot of feedback about Easter that could cause her to consider changing things, but going from that to a follow through a couple of weeks later is far from assured.

How effective is text for you and her to resolve problems?  I found with my wife that it was exhausting and spectacularly ineffective.  Are you two able to talk face-to-face and stay calm?  Have you heard of the book, "High Conflict Couple?"  OK, funny, I just went to look at a thread about it, and saw you're reading the book and already replied in the thread.  Great!    Like you, I find it tough for those books to sink in.  I usually end up reading them more than once (not in a row, though, I'll move on to another book and come back).  What I'm getting at with my face-to-face question is whether you can sit and have more meaningful conversations about the relationship, getting help, coparenting, etc. without the potential pitfalls of texting and e-mailing, which can sometimes make different perspectives worse.

To me it feels like you are where I was a couple of months ago, working on figuring out boundaries.  It's confusing, especially around getting treatment, because we want to push our spouse into treatment for the benefit of the children.  This can backfire, though.  Have you thought about areas where you are clear on where boundaries ought to be, where you can let her handle her stuff, and other areas where you think you may be in her sandbox but are having a harder time letting go?

WW

[DaddyBear77]

Sounds like you've been in a similar place to me, have things turned out better for you?

Things were really tough for a long long time. I tried many of the things you're trying - I recruited friends and family to try and make her see the reality of her situation. Etcetera etcetera. It wasn't until I simply let go - I took my hands off the wheel - I didn't react when she wanted me to swoop in, I didn't freak out when she told me how horrible I was, I didn't JADE - things got SO much better. For me.

I can't say what will happen to the relationship - as we always say, I can only really fix myself. I can tell you, though, that if this relationship CAN be fixed, it will be because I did what I did and let go of trying to hard to steer it, drive it. Now, I roll with it.

And I focus all the energy I have left on my daughter - it has done amazing things for her.

To me the co parenting feels like the final nail in the coffin for our relationship and a very permanent solution without ever giving any consideration to the fallout and how it effects all our lives from now until forever.

So I totally get this. Making things "official" or structuring them so that they are agreed upon - this kind of makes it "real" and like things are ending. I have been really hesitant to do this myself for these same reasons. However, when you can take care of that anxiety and uncertainty about when and how parenting will occur, you can then use the non-Parenting time to work on yourself and do things you may have not done in a long time. Again, if you can feel better and work on yourself, it WILL help overall and it will give you MORE chances to decide, for sure, how you want things to work in the future.

[sladezy]

Wentworth,

Text is not the most desirable form of communicating but it's always been her preferred method of communicating serious things even when together, or atleast to start something. We are calm face to face at a casual level. She will not discuss the relationship or treatment in person or text usually. Her suggesting she would do this is out of character (I feel like she might just be out to prove me wrong thus not take it seriously). Yes I'm really struggling with boundries I don't even know what they look like. I grasp the concept but fail to enforce them.

Daddy,

In what ways did they get better for you?  within yourself or reactions and the behaviour of your partner. Are you separated from your partner?

Overall

I told her recently I had no desire to be with her again. I didn't say it in anger it was 2 days after she didn't call the kids for easter. 2 days after this today I'm don't think that is the truth. I'm really struggling across the board again. I haven't heard from her for 2 days even though I was the last to msg re psychologist and sent some photos yesterday. Kids will be getting dropped off tomorrow and my mood is low again. Just going to go back to basics n be polite and not engage in conflict. I need a plan of what to do next time she might open up or want to include herself with the kids n I. Any ideas?

[Radcliff]

sladezy,

A few thoughts... .

Give yourself permission to be uncertain.  I can feel your angst in not knowing the answer.  I was expressing the same angst to a friend about my situation, and she shared the following quote with me:

“I beg you, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don’t search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them.  It is a question of experiencing everything.  Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.”
― Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poety

Deciding to live with the question for a while also is likely to help you avoid conclusive statements, like "I don't want to be with you anymore," which tend to narrow your options, at least for a while.  Next time she opens up, do what you're ready for.  If you feel ready to engage, do it.  If you need a rest, be courteous but don't take the opportunity to go further.  If she asks to do something with you and the kids, and you feel like it's good for the kids and OK for you, I'd say go for it.  If you feel you'd be better for the kids being alone with them and you need space, don't feel guilty about that either.

It took me a long time to realize that it was more about me than about her.  I had been so focused on my wife's out of control behaviors that I was thinking entirely about how she needed to change, and that if she changed, we'd be good.  I was completely out of touch with my own feelings and what I wanted.  It's an ongoing process to get in touch with that.

WW

[sladezy]

Wentworth,

I will give that a go, the anxiety I've had in the past 3 to 4 days has been very emence physically. My mind seems to be relatively clear but the pain, aches, stomach churning and light headedness has been a battle. Even medicating doesn't seem to help much. Also at time I wonder if I should retract the statement I made to her regarding no longer desiring to be with her again or if they just going to make me look needy and emotionally unstable (which is probably true anyway) or just leaving it for now. It may put her at ease to a degree because it's what she wants anyway and perhaps make communication alittle more relaxed at least from her. It may even work to my advantage or make her rethink if its what she truely wants now that she has it. Who knows. My main reason for retracting it I think is incase it is or has caused distress for her. She's dropping the kids off soon and I'm guessing things will be cordial again n then she's gone again for another week. Having the kids should cool my anxiety down as I've seemed them alot the last few days.

[Radcliff]

Perhaps a middle ground between a total retraction and letting her remain distressed is to just be general and honest.  Simply say when you see her briefly that your emotions have been all over the map lately.  "Hey, sorry about the other day, my emotions have been all over the place lately."  You can play with the wording to be more or less vague depending on what feels best.

I'm sorry to hear about the physical symptoms!  For physical symptoms, physical solutions can help.  When I was totally wigging out recently, with many physical symptoms, my therapist said to get into nature -- walk in a park with big trees, walk barefoot in the grass, do yard work in the dirt.  Try a hot bath, even if that's not a guy thing, or a long hot shower.  You might search for recordings with guided imagery for pain.  If I'm experiencing physical pain in a session my therapist talks me through guided imagery to reduce the pain.  Do you have any friends with large dogs you can borrow?  The kids might enjoy it, and anything over 70 pounds is pretty good for hugging

WW

[sladezy]

Wentworth,

Yeah I've got a big dog myself I've been neglecting the physical stuff lately except when I'm with the kids obviously. They are good for me. She dropped the kids off and things were ok until I asked for the blue book, she got very frustrated and attacking after that without coming up with a solution. All the text discussions from the weekend she basically repeated word for word defensively and blaming me again. Then expressed that I have motives to take the kids from her, that I'm trying to make her look like a bad mother. I didn't get defensive but my emotions were preventing me from communicating as clear and we'll as I would like. I tried to valid where I could but again clouded.

I think we are both abit frustrated at each other (possibly feeling similar) most of the things she's holding against me ain't legitimate or are areas where I've chosen to stand my ground. We both want more time with the kids, I tried to suggest we find ways we can both have that without fighting over them (hopefully this doesn't lead to fighting). So things didn't go back to cordial as I had presumed and aimed to remain. I also didn't fly off the handle and tried to bring the topic back to the discussion, though nothing was resolved. I think I might have still been justifying or defending myself (but not in a defensive way).

[sladezy]

It appeared to me afterwards that the things she is resisting to do for me (things I've requested from her) are being withheld because of things that I refused to give to her and tried to use as bargaining tools to get the things I wanted weeks after she continued not to give them to me. She's trying to paint the situation as if I started the behaviour.  Does she really believe this is the way it went? I'd find it hard not to justify and defend my position in this area. I've not refused anything from her I've simply said I will do them as soon as she had fulfilled my previous requests. Her child support has gone through so I don't know why she's still making a big song n dance about it. She carried on with lies about neededthe birth certificate or a copy of it and she already had acopy the whole time. Is this all made up conflict at her end or how she sees the events? I really don't like being treated this way and can only imagine what she's telling her friends (no wonder they are so supportive of her since I'm such a bad person). How can things possibly get better if this is what I'm up against. I know for certain she's incorrect in her reasoning and tail of events but I don't have a clue what to do about it. It becomes hard when you come to heads about something and she can't see things clearly as they are. I'm not letting these things she's saying take ownership of who I really am or what I really know but how do you come to a resolution under these circumstances?

[Radcliff]

It sounds like emotions are high, and there are several contentious issues.

Be very wary about tying together things that are not connected.  If you say something like "I'll give you back X and Y if you give me back A and B," you're headed for trouble.

Since my wife and I have been separated, anything she has asked for that has been easy for me to do for her, where the cost to me is low and the benefit to her is high, I've done, and done fast.  If I want her to do something for me, I'm hoping to have banked enough goodwill with her so that she'll want to do it.  Here's why this is important -- this is not a business transaction with a rational person who can horse trade with you.  You are dealing with someone with an emotional disability.  And even in business or in a non-BPD relationship, working on goodwill instead of horse trading works better.  When you start tying things together, you get a tangled logjam.  Nothing happens.  If things are not tied together, you may have the benefit of still being able to collaborate in one area while you're stuck in another area.  And even if she's challenged, you're better off holding yourself to a higher standard than her.

What are some of the things she wants you to do for her?  What are some of the things you want her to do for you?

WW

[sladezy]

Wentworth,

Some things I have requested
*the girls shoes back that bought them to go today are in (she sends back ___ty old shoes that don't fit them and I'm forever buying new shoes, hats and drink bottles that I never see again).
*the blue medical diary of our youngest daughter so I can take care of her medical needs (I've been requesting this since before she started making requests and tried using it for leverage). Ex for about our daughters needles and I'm worried it will happen again.
*that I be added to the daycare app which shows us what the kids are learning at daycare. This one she claims she has done after about 4 weeks of asking but I have not received an invite email. (this one is causing me a fair bit of distress along with the medical book.

Things she has asked for that I have so far refused.

*our daughters birth certificate. She made a big song n dance about needing this, then needing it to make a copy and in the end she already had a copy. I don't want to give the og copy because she can't look after it. She doesn't have her own and our eldest is in tatters.
*signing some paperwork for childsupport (even though her claim has already gone through). I agreed to sign this if she brings the blue book over. I didn't see either the blue book or the paper to sign in 2 weeks and asked if she had found the blue book at drop off this week and got 7 slammed for it. I explained I wanted to take care of our daughters medical needs, that it's one less expense and one less thing to worry about. Apparently I wanted it so I could tell people what a bad mother she is. That I want the kids to have one house n that's my house etcetcetc.

After she left I sent a message trying to validate her better than I had in person. Not that I think I did bad in person I just didn't do that good either. I said I don't want to fight and I have no motives. Lets just sort this stuff out n be done with it and that I was hoping things would continue the way they were before Easter. That I was sorry she felt like I was trying to make her look like a bad mother, however could see why she might think so. Assured her her mothering nature was part of why I fell in love with her and that it appears like we both want more time with the kids. That I'd like to find ways we can do that without fighting out them. She responded "agreed". I left it at that but heard nothing more. Today I asked if she had any ideas how we could do that. But again have heard nothing.

I've pretty much adjusted to being alone now, for the most part anyway. Still having ups n Downs. I'd still like to see my family back together but I really don't feel like it's going to become an option. I'm continuing to gain as much knowledge and understanding as I can but pat of that is learning that I'm out of my depth and that without cooperation there's 0% chance of it either. Seems like I'm fighting a losing battle to be honest. She can be very stubborn (as can I at times). To her addressing the mental health is a matter of who's right n who's wrong not to get better. I'm almost finished high conflict couple. I don't know if I should share this book with her or not at this stage. I think I'd probably like to. What's your thoughts on that?

[Radcliff]

sladezy, thanks for the detail.  Hearing it helps us understand your frustration.  Let me answer each of your specific points.  I'll do it as examples, but the important thing is to think of workarounds that are low conflict, reduce everyone's frustration, and don't rely on a behavior change from her.

*the girls shoes back that bought them to go today are in (she sends back ty old shoes that don't fit them and I'm forever buying new shoes, hats and drink bottles that I never see again).

I have a buddy who had a tough divorce from a woman who was likely BPD or NPD or both.  He had an ingenious solution to this problem.  He had bought a wardrobe for his two kids that stayed at his place.  When his kids arrived from his ex-wife's, he changed their clothes, washed and folded them (the clothes, not the kids  ), and then before they left his place, he changed them and sent them back in the exact same clothes they came in.  Pretty smart guy, huh?  I never would have figured that out.

*the blue medical diary of our youngest daughter so I can take care of her medical needs (I've been requesting this since before she started making requests and tried using it for leverage). Ex for about our daughters needles and I'm worried it will happen again.

This certainly sounds frustrating.  Maybe she can't find it?  What would happen if the book were lost or destroyed?  Surely you would find a way to manage.  Is it something she uses for daily care, or is it seldom used records?  Can you get information directly from the caregivers?  Basically, what would you do if the dog ate the blue book?

*that I be added to the daycare app which shows us what the kids are learning at daycare. This one she claims she has done after about 4 weeks of asking but I have not received an invite email. (this one is causing me a fair bit of distress along with the medical book.

Yes, this sounds important.  It's great that you want to stay as engaged as possible with everything that's happening to the kids.  Do you have a relationship directly with the daycare people?  If your wife lost her phone and got amnesia, how would you get added to the daycare app?  If you're talking to the daycare people, you can say your wife is having trouble figuring out how to add you.  Be charitable.  But ask them to help you directly, or work directly with the app provider.

Things she has asked for that I have so far refused:

*our daughters birth certificate. She made a big song n dance about needing this, then needing it to make a copy and in the end she already had a copy. I don't want to give the og copy because she can't look after it. She doesn't have her own and our eldest is in tatters.

In my country, local authorities will provide certified copies of birth certificates for a small fee.  They are identical to the originals, in color with fancy stamps, etc.  In a situation like that, I'd order three copies for each kid, and give my wife one.  (Digression -- my wife and my daughters were always taking my nail clippers, losing them, and then complaining they didn't have any.  I ordered a bucket of 72 nail clippers online for $15 that lasted us five years.  I just gave the last one to my daughter yesterday.  Somewhere in our orbit are 72 nail clippers.  Sometimes it's nice to smash a problem with a sledgehammer )

*signing some paperwork for childsupport (even though her claim has already gone through). I agreed to sign this if she brings the blue book over. I didn't see either the blue book or the paper to sign in 2 weeks and asked if she had found the blue book at drop off this week and got 7 slammed for it. I explained I wanted to take care of our daughters medical needs, that it's one less expense and one less thing to worry about. Apparently I wanted it so I could tell people what a bad mother she is. That I want the kids to have one house n that's my house etcetcetc.

Yes, so you linked the blue book to the child support paperwork.  They are not linked.  It was a power move, and power moves annoy pwBPD, women, and humans in general.  Signing the paperwork should be determined by you, your lawyer, court requirements, and best interest of the kids.

After she left I sent a message trying to validate her better than I had in person.

Good work! 

I've pretty much adjusted to being alone now, for the most part anyway. Still having ups n Downs. I'd still like to see my family back together but I really don't feel like it's going to become an option. I'm continuing to gain as much knowledge and understanding as I can but pat of that is learning that I'm out of my depth and that without cooperation there's 0% chance of it either. Seems like I'm fighting a losing battle to be honest. She can be very stubborn (as can I at times). To her addressing the mental health is a matter of who's right n who's wrong not to get better.

When she has the kids, and you have some spare time, take a look through your threads.  You are learning fast.  You haven't been on this site for very long.  You've grown and your perspective has evolved several times over.  You've still got a bunch of opportunities with your personal growth that will help reduce conflict.  Focus on that and less on what you want her to do.  You can be successful controlling your own actions.  Focusing on hers will make you less happy.

I'm almost finished high conflict couple. I don't know if I should share this book with her or not at this stage. I think I'd probably like to. What's your thoughts on that?

Great!  Do you think she'd be receptive right now?  An alternative to start might be to practice some of the techniques with her yourself (yes, I know it's better when two people do it together).  If you feel ready to mention it, you might send up a vague trial balloon.  Maybe not even say it's a book.  Something like, "would you be interested in seeing if there are resources to help us learn how to communicate with less conflict" or something like that.  If you mention the title of the book when she's not receptive, she'll remember the title and your goose is cooked.  You're likely to have the best luck when things are going well, not when they're going poorly.

WW