Grew up with an abusive mother - wondering whether it was BPD?

[icky]

Hi : )

I've come to this board because I went through a BPD relationship and then breakup 18 months ago.
I am okay again now, tho it has been an undescribably tough time.

One of the things I have struggled with is that I didn't pick up on the signs. I have beaten myself up about that quite a bit, tho I have started to make peace with it, because although there were some "signs" that something was weird, it would've taken a miracle for me to realise what it was.

Another thing I've struggled with is that by getting into a BPD relationship, that obviously means I have "issues" that made me prone to that.

I grew up with a wonderful father but a very abusive mother and have PTSD from that.

During trauma therapy, I and my therapists have always wondered "what the heck" is the matter with my mother. All of her violent behaviour/ mood swings/ etc never fit a pattern that we could pinpoint and give any diagnostic label to.

This has been really unhelpful for me during trauma therapy, because it made my mother seem like some kind of "monster" that we couldn't just give a normal, scientific diagnosis/ label.

I am now wondering whether it was BPD.

How can I work this out? I was soo young at the time. Her behaviour just seemed bizarre and horrible to me.
What patterns of behaviour should I be looking out for to assess this?

Thanks,
icky

[Harri]

Hi icky and welcome to the board.

I am glad to hear you got through such a difficult time.  It is not uncommon for people to realize there is a reason they were involved with a person with BPD (pwBPD) and to eventually end up looking at their own childhood.  It makes sense that you would not pick up on the signs there was a problem if you were raised in an abusive environment.  Of course you wouldn't.  It would seem normal to you and would not set off alarm bells.

Labels can be helpful but are not necessary to help yourself heal.  Nor can we really diagnose anyone (sorry for stating the obvious here).  When I first started working on myself about 14 years ago, the BPD label was a good enough fit though it did not explain everything.  I had to be okay with that.  It is only recently that my current T told me she thinks my mother had Schizophrenia.  I still think there were BPD traits at the very least and my T agrees.  On top of that my mother was just plain mean sometimes which is how my T phrases it.

All that to say I get wanting to have a label.  For me it helped me find a pathway to reframing my childhood.  I am not sure what patterns you should focus on to be honest.  I assume you are familiar with the diagnostic criteria for BPD.  Is that accurate?  

Can you describe your relationship with your father and his role in interacting with your mother?  I ask because there could be a strong link between his behaviors with his marriage and you getting involved with a pwBPD.

Hope to hear more from you and that you keep posting.  It can help you get to an answer.

[icky]

All that to say I get wanting to have a label.  For me it helped me find a pathway to reframing my childhood.  I am not sure what patterns you should focus on to be honest.  I assume you are familiar with the diagnostic criteria for BPD.  Is that accurate?  

Can you describe your relationship with your father and his role in interacting with your mother?  I ask because there could be a strong link between his behaviors with his marriage and you getting involved with a pwBPD.

Hi 

Thank you for your kind message.

Yes, I realise that a "label" will not be a magic fix, but I would like to try and find out if BPD explains my childhood experiences with my mother.

Yes, I'm aware of the diagnostic criteria, but only in the sense of what it's like to be in a romantic relationship with someone. Most material available tends to describe it in those terms too - what it's like when your partner has BPD.
Given that I don't know what pwBPD parent like, or how BPD affects parenting, I'm confused as to what patterns to look for, other than just "abusiveness".
Also, with the BPD relationship I got into with my ex, I was an adult and could rationally, consciously observe what was going on. It was still very confusing, but I had the perspective of an adult to deal with it.

As I said, in my childhood I found my mother's behaviour "awful and mean".
I don't think that quite qualifies for a BPD "diagnosis" yet, haha : )
Are there any resources on this website re what parents with BPD are typically like?
I will try googling it too, to see if I get some descriptions I can relate to.

You asked about my dad. Well, he's a lovely person and no one can work out why he married my mother.
Their marriage was in effect over, by the time I was 4 and they nearly separated when I was 7 but stayed together because of financial problems and finally divorced in a really ugly divorce when I was 11.

He was miserable with her and he hated how she treated us children. When they divorced, it was a nightmare for him, because he was really scared the courts would grant my mother custody, because back then that's what courts traditionally did.
Luckily the courts granted joint custody and I was able to live with my dad. My mother was a nightmare.

I think I will google "parents with BPD" and then report back what fits and what doesn't.

Thanks so much for your repsonse 

icky

[icky]

I'm going to list some behaviours I can remember:

- My mother did not understand interpersonal stuff at all. For a while I thought maybe she was autistic, because she just understood nothing. She did not understand other people's feelings. She did not even understand her own. She had no compassion or empathy. It's like she didn't even know what those words were, much less those feelings. My therapist and I have also wondered whether she is sociopathic, because she undestands literally zero human interaction.

- She never had a best friend in her entire life and my father is the only partner she ever had.

- She would "switch" between idolising me and my brother (in an uncomfortable way) to being sadistic and abusive. She did not notice she switched like that.

- She had no self-awareness about any of her actions or statements. Zero.

- She was very manipulative. I think she wanted children the way a kid wants a doll. Just something to control and play with. I don't think she ever realised that my brother and I were truly sentient beings or at least she never realised that we were *individuals*. That we existed as human beings separately from her. She thought we existed *to be her kids*.

- She was very obsessive-compulsive.

- She was cruel, mean, sadistic and would play power-games and mind-games.

- I can't remember a single moment in my entire childhood where she was authentic or relaxed or nice.

- She would "switch" to being very childish.

- Much of my childhood, I was the sensible "adult" and she was the emotionally volatile child acting out whatever she felt like, completely irrationally.

[icky]

I just found this on a website about BPD parents:

The dynamics of the parent-child relationship are organized around the mother’s symptomatology; rather than understanding the child as an autonomous person with their own needs, desires, preferences, strengths, and weaknesses, the mother sees the child as a “need-gratifying object”. As a result, her parenting is driven by the desire to meet her own overwhelming need for validation, security, and love, rather than bestowing them upon you. You quickly learn that your role is to satisfy your mother’s demands, however unrealistic, unstable, and conflicting, and she often seeks to exert control and limit your autonomy as a frantic effort to avoid abandonment.

The first bit just describes what I have writte above.
The last part is more significant to me.

When my brother and I were younger, the abuse was bad but just bearable.
When we entered puberty/ became teenagers, the abuse skyrocketed and became shocking and devastating.

My therapist and I worked out that it was the fear of abandonment - because children in their teenage years are getting ready to leave the nest.
It was very obvious, because the massive abuse was directed at exactly those things. Any (even the tiniest) things that my brother and I did that symbolised growing up and independence were met with savage, sadistic abuse.

I never thought of it as the fear-of-abandonment of BPD before, but it makes perfect sense.

My brother, sadly, could not cope with the abuse and so he bowed to it. He stopped seeking independence and ended up living with my mother until his early 30s. It was a very unhealthy relationship.

I managed to escape the situation, but I got the hugest share of the sadistic abuse to punish me for my independence. I'm still glad I got away tho.

I am 40 now and have not had ANY contact with my mother since I was 23.
The contact was ended by me with the help of lawyers, police and a very supportive therapist.

[icky]

One thing I am very grateful for is that my mother's behaviour was always so bizarre and nuts and crazy, so that I never took her seriously.
I can remember being as young as 5 years old and just staring at my mother and thinking that she was nuts.
Luckily, the bad abuse only started later, so when I was younger, I would just avoid being in the same room as my mother except for meals and stuff.
I just ignored her as much as possible because I knew she was nuts.

[zachira]

You are now facing how the behavior of your mother continues to impact your life even though you have no contact with her, and how hard it is to hear bad things about your mother, because you care about her and are very hurt at the same time. You find yourself attracted to people who end up hurting you. You would like to know what is wrong with your mother, that she sometimes treated you so badly, when the role of a mother is to love and support their child. What is most important in all of this is probably how your mother's past behavior is impacting your life in the present, and you are addressing this by asking questions, seeing a therapist for PTSD, and reaching out to this Board. There are many people on this Board who have had experiences that are similar to yours and continue to ask why family members behave in such contradictory ways. Whatever you learn about your mother's behavior, some of the explanations for her behavior will not be easy to accept, as all child deserve the love and respect of their parents, and it is hard to understand why childhood was so full of many painful experiences. Please let us know how we can help, and how you are doing.

[icky]

Thanks Zachira  : )

[icky]

The dynamics of the parent-child relationship are organized around the mother’s symptomatology; rather than understanding the child as an autonomous person with their own needs, desires, preferences, strengths, and weaknesses, the mother sees the child as a “need-gratifying object”. As a result, her parenting is driven by the desire to meet her own overwhelming need for validation, security, and love, rather than bestowing them upon you. You quickly learn that your role is to satisfy your mother’s demands, however unrealistic, unstable, and conflicting.

This is probably what annoys me most in terms of the effects on me.
I have learned to always "be there for others" and to never take my own needs or wishes seriously.

This really, really annoys me.

[Harri]

Hi again Icky.  I see you have been doing some research.  Good for you and thanks for posting more because now I have a better idea of what happened.  It was too broad without some specifics for me to focus on, sorta like trying to find a diagnosis for 'awful and mean' like you said!  LOL--  not funny haha, I found it funny the way you said it.

I agree that a lot of articles are written from the perspective of a romantic relationship.  We do have articles here, specific to the issues we experience here on this board that I am going to link you to at the bottom of my post. 

It sounds like you were a smart little kid to have figured out your mom was 'not right' and you were able to take protective measures for yourself.  You have to admire the strength and smarts that took.  I am sad to hear that the abuse got worse as you got older.  I am not prying, but I do want to let you know that you can talk freely here about anything you like.  Chances are someone(s) will be able to relate and we tend to be a tough group to shock.  I can't say enough good things about the support, understanding, and validation I have received over the years.  People have helped to focus me and prod me along when needed and I attribute a lot of the healing I have done to this site.

Reading your posts on this thread certain things spring to mind and they are all discussed on this board.  Splitting, parentification, enmeshment, there are so many things.  One thing that really helped me to understand and depersonalize my mother's behavior was something called projection. 

I agree that one of the most frustrating things I experienced was her using me as her provider and pacifier and it had definitely carried over into other parts of my life.  It is a tough nut to crack isn't it?

Be sure to check out the Lessons and Recommended reading sections stickied towards the top of this page.  I don't want to offer too many links because it can get to be a bit much especially because you are already reading about BPD moms on your own.  You can do a board search on the terms I listed here,  Just choose search, advanced search, make sure to select the proper board and to change the day count too (I always do a 1000 days just in case I miss something!  LOL)

Book Recommendations:  Both are good for looking at how our parents disorder affected us.  The second book, surviving has exercises that help us focus and really get a look at what happened to us and how we can help ourselves. Understanding the Borderline Mother 
Surviving a Borderline Parent

Let me join with Zachira in saying "Please let us know how we can help, and how you are doing."

[icky]

Hi again Icky.  I see you have been doing some research.  Good for you and thanks for posting more because now I have a better idea of what happened.  It was too broad without some specifics for me to focus on, sorta like trying to find a diagnosis for 'awful and mean' like you said!  LOL--  not funny haha, I found it funny the way you said it.

Hi Harri 

Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful words and for taking the time to read the details I posted!

And yeah, I giggled too at the "awful and mean" diagnosis. I have found humour to be one of the most important parts of my healing and coping. Some stuff is so nuts, that if you can laugh about it, especially laugh together with others about these bizarre experiences, then it can be such a healing way to get over them and to keep a sense of perspective. Sure some stuff is just sad and painful, but humour has helped to keep me sane and surviving.

As I said, I've done a ton of trauma therapy about my childhood and I'm pleased to say that after a loong, hard haul, I think I've done 90% of the therapy and the healing work now. It was years of incredibly tough work but I am grateful to be reaping the rewards of peacefulness, confidence, happiness now.

I'd say there are just a few loose ends to tie up and as the BPD diagnosis for my mother looks like it's making sense (especially re the fear-of-abandonment through teenage children, and the being used as someone's "provider and pacifier" as you describe it, instead of having a normal, healthy childhood)... .I think this is looking like it can be one of the things that helps give me true closure as regards my childhood.

Yeah, I am infinitely grateful for the kind, generous, supportive people in my life (my dad, friends, teachers, partners, therapists, self-help settings like this forum) that have helped me grow and heal from my childhood and am also very grateful for my inner resources (strength, intelligence, compassion, resilience, humour).

I will keep posting here as I start getting my head around the idea of what it means to have had a BPD parent.

I think it will take time to process it, so I dare say I won't be posting daily insights/ epiphanies : )

But I am incredibly grateful to have such a knowledgeable, understanding and caring place as this to help me think through these issues, when I get stuck on my own.

I have ordered the book "Surviving a Borderline Parent" and look forward to reading it.

Thank you so much for reaching out and sharing your experience and encouraging me to make more sense of my weird BPD parent experiences. 

I am sure it will be deeply healing to be able to make "more sense" of them, as the confusion is something that has bothered me a long time and that has made coming to peace with it challenging, as I could not work out what on earth I was coming to peace with.

Thank you so much and I hope to see you around the boards here and wish you so well for your own continuing healing and recovery. I hope I can be of support too, once I've understood the BPD parent concept better!

P.S. I love your pic - Snoopy is gorgeous : )

[icky]

Just adding some more memories/ notes:

- I don't recall ever loving my mother, not even as a really small child. I remember disliking her from as early as I can recall. On the days when she was "nice" I would feel relief and gratitude, but never love.

- I was a "dad's kid" and would seek his kind, normal, sane company. My mother massively resented this.

- I was classed as "the bad child" by my mother. My brother (who bought into all the BPD behaviour) was classed as "the good child".

- As a child, I always used to think my mother was a witch. She reminded me of the witches in the fairy tales. I was aware she was just a very damaged human being, but "witch" described her perfectly and that's how she *felt*.

- I describe the *intense* fear of abandonment my mother felt when her teenage children were preparing to "leave the nest". She went through a similar phase when we children were around 2-3 years old and leaving the "symbiotic bubble" of infancy and becoming independently minded, active children who learned the word "no" and would strive to do as *they* wished.

[zachira]

Thanks for sharing your story and how much you have done to recover from so much abuse, yet at the same time you find yourself attracted to relationships which are not so healthy. I can identify with so many of the things you have said. My borderline mother just absolutely freaked out when we were small children and wanted some degree of independence, and again when we were teenagers. She also played favorites. My brother who was not a favorite and still yearns to be so, is now living with mom and taking care of her. Like you, I realized something was wrong, and was scapegoated for trying to become independent of her. I have done years of therapy, and my biggest challenge is who I am attracted to for relationships. As I have done more therapy, read more books, participated in this website, I find the healthy people want more of me, and the charming yet not so nice people hiding behind the nice facade don't want me as much. Attracting the right partner is still a problem, and I really commend you for looking at that, as sometimes this is the last thing we really need to work on to fully recover. Working on boundaries, seeing people for who they really are, getting feedback from others can really help. How do people you value and trust see your partner? What is it about your attraction to an unhealthy person that is similar to the dynamics experienced in childhood? Studies show that people who marry a person with secure attachment, that is people who have had parents that loved and supported them in healthy ways, can repair the damage from childhood and become securely attached just like their partner. You are doing everything you can to deal with how your early family dynamics effect you now, so please keep up posted, as we care, are inspired by your journey, and are learning so much from you.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Icky! 

Thank you for sharing some of your story with us. Harri & zachira have done a great job already of sharing some very good thoughts with you.  I'm glad you are seeking to find answers to the clues of your past.

- As a child, I always used to think my mother was a witch. She reminded me of the witches in the fairy tales. I was aware she was just a very damaged human being, but "witch" described her perfectly and that's how she *felt*.

If you have a chance to check out the book that Harri mentioned Understanding the Borderline Mother, I wonder if you'll respond as I did and  how many others here have. I felt as if I was reading the story of my life, as if the author had climbed inside of my head and watched the drama of my family play out. The author describes the BPD mother in the terms used in a fairy tale, one of them being a witch as you mentioned. My uBPDm fit all 4 of the characteristics listed in the book, but witch was the most dominant.

The other book which you ordered is my favorite.  I hope you gain as much if not more insight than I did when I read it.

You are on the right track. Keep going!
 
Wools

[Fie]

Hello Icky   

Seems like you have been doing a lot of work already, good on you !

Have you thought about NPD ? Obvisously not diagnosing here. But I had a partner until some years ago, who ticked off a lot of the BPD boxes, so that fit. Still there was something else going on. He was mean. It was not only acting out because of fear of being abandoned by me, he was plain mean sometimes, also when there didn't seem to be an underlying fear.
At one point he went to see a psychiatrist, who after 1 (!) session told me he thought  my ex was NPD.
BPD and NPD are in fact oftentimes coexistent. I had had no idea of the NPD of my ex and I told the psychiater I didn't think he was NPD. My ex partner was not really so self confident, so I actually didn't believe the diagnosis at that time. Later on I learned that all NPD actually stems from insecurity, and that there are different ways as a NPD of covering up that insecurity. Some people will cover it up really well, and those  are the narcisists we all know. But some of them will sometimes still show the insecurity. My ex was one of those.

Here is a website, written by someone who calls himself NPD. Be careful for triggers because sometimes it's heavy stuff.

https://narcsite.com/

[Harri]

Hi again icky!  how are you doing?

I love this picture of Snoopy.  I agree he is gorgeous and he makes me smile.

Fie brings up a good point about NPD.  I always think the more deliberate and cruel behaviors are more related to NPD or even aspd than BPD though I am no expert and those deliberate cruel behaviors also can happen with the witch subtype of BPD as mentioned by Wools.  I just like to make things neat and clear cut in my mind even though there is a great deal of overlap in behaviors.  I like simple but it is not always possible. 

I really like what Zachira said about being able to become securely attached through a healthy relationship.  It takes a great deal of work but to know it is possible makes it easier to keep working on it.  Recently we had a discussion about what healing means and agreed that healing is possible but we will always have scars.  It is how we handle those scars that matters.  It sounds to me like you are well on your way to recovery.  Someday I hope you share more about how you worked through things in therapy.  I am always interested and looking for encouragement for my own journey.  We can learn so much from each other.

Thanks for sharing and I am glad to have had a chance to get to know you better.

[Turkish]

Just adding some more memories/ notes:

- I don't recall ever loving my mother, not even as a really small child. I remember disliking her from as early as I can recall. On the days when she was "nice" I would feel relief and gratitude, but never love

Though I wouldn't classify my mom as a witch,  I feel the same way. 

I'm kind of there for her because she has no one else. 

About leaving the nest,  my senior year in high school (I was younger,  16 then 17) my mom had her breakdown. That summer was the worst... .I tried not to be home much.  I told her I was moving out,  but she said I couldn't because I wasn't 18 and couldn't sign a contract. She started therapy (again, I found out decades later), was put on Prozac which initially caused her to dysregulate more. She rushed into my room one afternoon and shoved the pills into my hand,  "hide these! I don't like how they make me feel!"

I know I was 17, and considered myself an adult,  but she shouldn't have done that. 

Long story short,  I moved out on my 18th birthday and never spent a night in that house again. The next summer was even worse, but here I am,  28 years later,  surviving just like you and reaching out to others for support 

Turkish

[icky]

Fie brings up a good point about NPD.  I always think the more deliberate and cruel behaviors are more related to NPD or even aspd than BPD though I am no expert and those deliberate cruel behaviors also can happen with the witch subtype of BPD as mentioned by Wools.  I just like to make things neat and clear cut in my mind even though there is a great deal of overlap in behaviors.  I like simple but it is not always possible. 

Thank you all for your kind and insightful comments! : )
I will reply to them in detail later today.

I looked up NPD parents (still have to look up ASPD) and ohhhh yes, that is ringing a ton of bells too. (I will post examples later.)

Like you Harri, I think there is tons of overlap between BPD and NPD and like you I would like to get the concepts a bit clearer in my mind. I agree it's not possible to totally separate it out, but I'd like to have more of a *feeling* for which is which.

If anyone has any metaphors or good examples of BPD vs NPD behaviour that help make the distinction more "grasp-able" I'd be very grateful.

***I feel for all of you going through the same struggle and on the journey of overcoming these experiences. May we thrive.***

[icky]

Oh, I also wanted to add, that I realised I forgot a 3rd big "abandonment" phase for BPD parents (at least in my case, but I have been reading in lots of other cases here on the forum too):

1 - toddler leaving the "symbiotic bubble" between infant and mother and becoming independent
2 - teenagers getting ready to leave the nest
3 - finding a partner

Like so many here, the 3rd developmental phase was underminded, attacked, guilt-tripped, black-mailed, pressured and prevented wherever possible.

It seems each developmental step in the child of a BPD parent that has to do with becoming independent and becoming a separate, functioning individual is perceived as a threat and huge amounts of energy are invested in doing anything and everything (abusive) to prevent it.

[icky]

I'm kind of there for her because she has no one else. 

Hey Turkish : )

Thanks for your message. I've been reading that you are helping care for your elderly mother. Good on you for coping with the triggers.

Thanks to having been NC since my early 20's, I am so relieved that this will not be one of my burdens.

What you wrote made me think of a pretty funny thing that shows how delusional my BPD/ NPD mother was: Just before I went NC in my early 20s, she hooked up with someone in a (failed) relationship attempt. (My father was the only other partner she ever had and they went through an ugly divorce when I was 11.) Now bear in mind that I'd gone through 20+ years of BPD abuse at this point, had had to be the "parent" to my useless mother, had never felt *any* affection for her and was gearing up to go NC at this stage.

So in my early 20s, she does a really inappropriate and weird song and dance about introducing this new man in her life to us kids. I still can't believe that as part of it she went into a big "pretending to be compassionate" spiel about whether I was feeling "jealous" or "threatened" by her meeting someone, as if I were 5 years old and were jealous of the attention a parent was giving a potential step-dad or step-mum... .?

I stared at her and said "Wow you have got to be kidding me. Do you know how much of a burden you are? I am beyond relieved that you now have someone else to "look after" you and are no longer my problem."

Haha. That shut her up. She was gobsmacked and it kind of deflated her weirdly inappropriate day. I know that sounds mean, but it wasn't even my intention. I was just expressing my honest relief in a neutral, dead-pan way, because I was so thrown by her delusional comment.

But I do have to laugh about the situation in retrospect, especially at how wildly delusional she was.
Gotta grab a laugh were you can, I reckon.   : P

[icky]

I was the first born child in our family on all sides (i.e. first born grand-child too) and so naturally doted on by all.

My BPD mother was extreme in her idealisation - there are entire photo albumS  of every moment of the first 2 years of my life. Photos that show that I was the centre of attention and spoiled rotten.

As I have described above, that phase ended as we children left infancy and became stubborn, self-willed toddlers.

But it has always been very strange for me to see these photo albums and the "evidence" of adoration and my every possible need being catered to. It always served to question whether the abuse that followed could have been real, given the "evidence" of those first 2 years.

Now that I recently got entangled in a romantic relationship with someone with uBPD, I have encountered the phenomenon of the idealisation phase and the "love bombing" that goes with it. This is helping to put all the photo albums and all that being spoiled rotten for 2 years in context.

I guess I can be grateful that this phase existed. I'm sure it gave me a relatively stable grounding in my infant-stage psyche and made the following years easier to cope with. Funny the things you can be grateful for.

[Fie]

If anyone has any metaphors or good examples of BPD vs NPD behaviour that help make the distinction more "grasp-able" I'd be very grateful.

I am far from a psychologist, but maybe this ?

BPD issues : fear of abandonment    -  leads to anger
NPD issues : self inflation  (although the initial feelings is I think always insecurity, but we are looking to the behavior now)            - also leads to anger

Both can act mean. But in my opinion if BPD acts mean, there is an underlying issue of fearing abandonment. When NPD acts mean it's because they feel they are better than anyone else - and in some extreme cases they are evil I think. Not sure where exactly is the overlapse with antisocial disorder and such. But I don't really care: I stay away from them, NPD or antisocial.

I think in many cases BPD and NPD co-exist, so don't beat yourself up too much in dividing them.  Although  I do understand this is your way of getting a grip on it, up till recently I was pretty much doing the same as you. Now if I see BPD - and they don't harm me ! - I can deal with it. If I see NPD, I run for the hills, whether they harm me or not. I think it's something really scary.

[icky]

Now if I see BPD - and they don't harm me ! - I can deal with it. If I see NPD, I run for the hills, whether they harm me or not. I think it's something really scary.

Thanks for your thoughts... .Yeah it's hard to get a "feel" for what is what... .

I like how you described it in the quote above.

I also don't feel that BPD is "scary". It seems like a desperate 3 year old acting out really badly.
It can do damage, but it seems kind of helpless.

I don't really have a "sense" of NPD yet.
I agree that the self-inflation is actually the way of turning the insecurity into the "opposite".

I might be kind of bad at spotting this behaviour, because I usually see straight through this game of "self-inflation to mask insecurity" stuff. I don't buy into and just think "That is so pathetic."
So maybe I'm missing it?

I'm trying to think of any teachers I might have had a school that seemed spiteful and nasty and would put students down. Is that a kind of NPD thing to do? Or I'm trying to think of a boss or co-worker that might qualify? I've obviously met enough sh*tty people in life, like we all have, just can't think of any that seem NPD to me, off hand.

[Fie]

I might be kind of bad at spotting this behaviour, because I usually see straight through this game of "self-inflation to mask insecurity" stuff. I don't buy into and just think "That is so pathetic."
So maybe I'm missing it?

Or maybe on the contrary you are good at it ? Usually what I see, is that those kind of 'grandiose' people have hoards of people who admire them around them. They don't see them as pathetic as you do.

I don't know really. Someone told me I see BPD/NPD everywhere, but that everyone has something that is a bit 'off', so that I exaggerate. I guess it is true that I started to overthink BPD in the aftermath of my failed relationship with BPD/NPD.
On the other hand my therapist told me that NPD is actually all around us, and that maybe I don't exaggerate but I just spot it well because of what I have lived through.

[icky]

That is so true : )

I will have to keep pondering it!

[zachira]

The key to avoiding people with personality disorders, whether it is borderline, narcissistic, or antisocial, is to notice whether the interactions are based on genuine contact or are a facade to hide behind big insecurities. Pay attention to how they treat people in public, because often the people with these personality disorders want to be well thought of, and will do whatever it takes to impress people they are not close to. When it comes to family members, significant others, and friends, people they spend lots of time with, the facade comes crashing down, and they treat those closest to them badly, especially in times of stress.
Healthy people are comfortable in their own skin, have genuine compassion for others, and are able to genuinely apologize for mistakes and misunderstandings. They also have close relationships with family and long time friends.

[peachtree487]

The dynamics of the parent-child relationship are organized around the mother’s symptomatology; rather than understanding the child as an autonomous person with their own needs, desires, preferences, strengths, and weaknesses, the mother sees the child as a “need-gratifying object”. As a result, her parenting is driven by the desire to meet her own overwhelming need for validation, security, and love, rather than bestowing them upon you. You quickly learn that your role is to satisfy your mother’s demands, however unrealistic, unstable, and conflicting.

This is probably what annoys me most in terms of the effects on me.
I have learned to always "be there for others" and to never take my own needs or wishes seriously.

This really, really annoys me.

I know what you mean - the statement above brings about strong emotions in me and deep sadness. I am sad mostly because if my uBPD mom was able to understand and to see what she has been doing her whole life, if she could somehow really "know" that the statement above applies to her,  I know that she would want or try to change, and she would work hard at changing if she knew how badly she has affected her loved ones. Reading that statement also makes me feel anger, which is an emotion I do not often feel - it makes me mad and sad at the same time, like I was used, and makes me realize how awful this mental illness is.

EDIT: Like you, I have always put myself last, to put all others needs before mine, my meeds were not important. It was to the point where I let others abuse me physically, mentally, and verbally, because I grew up thinking that was the only way someone would love me - and that the more I let them abuse me, the more they would love me.

[Turkish]

I let others abuse me physically, mentally, and verbally, because I grew up thinking that was the only way someone would love me - and that the more I let them abuse me, the more they would love me.

You know this isn't true, right?

[peachtree487]

You know this isn't true, right?

Yes, now I know it is not true, but years ago, while I was in a long term relationship with a man who treated me just like my mother did, I truly thought differently, that the more I "let" him abuse me, that he would love me, and I also believed that I "caused" him to abuse me, like I believed as a child, that I caused my mom to abuse me. It's very odd, that even though I knew better about my mom when I was with this man, that the way she treated me had nothing to do with me, I still did not understand my relationship with him, or how he was like her, and it took me a long time to realize that the reasons why I let him abuse me was because it seemed so normal to me, after growing up that way. I was stuck in thinking that I wasn't good enough for him, and spent 13 years trying to be better and better.

Edit: I did not have any grasp of much until I actually read about BPD. I did not understand that I had such low self esteem, either, that was part of the reason why I stayed with that man for so long.

[Harri]

It's very odd, that even though I knew better about my mom when I was with this man, that the way she treated me had nothing to do with me, I still did not understand my relationship with him, or how he was like her, and it took me a long time to realize that the reasons why I let him abuse me was because it seemed so normal to me, after growing up that way... .
Edit: I did not have any grasp of much until I actually read about BPD. I did not understand that I had such low self esteem, either, that was part of the reason why I stayed with that man for so long.

I understand this.  There is a big difference between knowing and understanding something on an intellectual and believing something on an emotional level.  The work we do on the emotional level is what allows us to change our image of Self and begin to believe we are worth far more than what abusive people give us and what we accept whether it be in the name of love, family or friendship.  That is when the most important change and healing begins.