Is Hotness a Red Flag?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

It's not unusual for men on Learning and Detaching to describe their ex partners as physically striking: stunning/hot/gorgeous/a looker/very attractive, etc . . . While women here don't talk as much about their ex-partners' physical attributes, there are other qualities that can make a partner hot.  For example, while my ex wasn't conventionally handsome, he was a master of the romantic gesture in a way that set him apart. 

When a women (or man) puts a greater than average effort into appealing to potential partners - physically, behaviorally, or both - what does it say about him or her?  Where does that effort come from.  What drives it?  If you're seeking to date a new partner, is hotness a red flag?

[Insom]

It's not unusual for men on Learning and Detaching to describe their ex partners as physically striking: stunning/hot/gorgeous/a looker/very attractive, etc . . . While women here don't talk as much about their ex-partners' physical attributes, there are other qualities that can make a partner hot.  For example, while my ex wasn't conventionally handsome, he was a master of the romantic gesture in a way that set him apart. 

When a women (or man) puts a greater than average effort into appealing to potential partners - physically, behaviorally, or both - what does it say about him or her?  Where does that effort come from.  What drives it?  If you're seeking to date a new partner, is hotness a red flag?

[Insom]

In another thread, truthbeknown said this about celebrity couple Paulina Porizkova and Ric Ocasek. 

I remember reading an article about Paulina Porizkova (the wife of the Car's lead singer) and they asked her how her and Ric were able to stay together all these years.   They (the media) have also asked her why she felt attracted to Ric (the big perception was how could a model fall in love with him?).  She said that most famous couples are too narcissistic to stay together because they objectify themselves and think of themselves as a commodity.  I think that was an interesting point.

Here is Liza Minelli on Marilyn Monroe in Bazaar :

"I was walking down Broadway with her and nobody was stopping us. She was going to [Stella Adler's] actors' studio, and she was taking me to show me what it was all about. And I said to her, 'How come nobody is taking your picture?' She said, 'Well, watch.' She took her scarf off, straightened her shoulders, and draped something another way, and we were surrounded. It must have been 400 people. And I said, 'Now I know why!'''

Thoughts?

[Jeffree]

Ah, but herein lies the rub... .

What if what we find "hot" is tied to the person's inner being and that inner being has BPD in more cases than not?

Likewise, I am sure there are unhot pwBPD such as my first ex.

However, I do think there is something about putting oneself out there physically in a constant state of hotness that lends itself to not such a good emotional space. Putting oneself out there as an object instead of a spiritual and emotional being, and thinking one's role in life and relationships is as an object is capable of being the result of BPD and also can lead to BPD.

After my experience with my STBx, I am definitely leery of hot types, or at least those I see as being hot because apparently what I am attracted to is not what's good for me.

Also a for me is an over-preoccupation with one's looks. If it takes someone a couple of hours to get ready for the simplest visit outside to get groceries or go to a Farmer's Market and all weekend to do nails, color hair, go to the salon for a facial and blowout, and re-secure fake eyelashes for the work week ahead, then COUNT ME THE HELL OUT!

I am not joking. STBx would spend all weekend in front of the TV buffing the old polish off her nails, applying layer after layer of lacquer, dying her own hair (which she would complain to me about having to do in order to cutback on expenses), blow drying it herself, THEN going to the salon for a blowout, facial, eyebrows, and lashes. So she had no time for any normal home activities under the guise of... .you buy me those hot dresses, so clearly you want a hot wife and I'm not going to stay young forever.   

In all honesty, her preoccupation with her looks was ruinous in so many ways.

J

[Skip]

If you're seeking to date a new partner, is hotness a red flag?

I have read many lists of 100 red flags and I think they all reflect a limited ability to see or understand compatibility and mental health.

Think about it. If someone is an alcoholic, we see excessive consumption and personality change when drinking. Relatively simple. We don't reach for clues like "did they belong to a fraternity in college?" or "do they have strong preference for a specific drink brand?".

My question is what are the few and direct signs to look for?

[gotbushels]

Interesting topic Insom  

I don't think there's been a study done on this.

Skip mentioned that studies suggest BPD is significant with factors of low health and success. If you combine that with the idea that humans perceive beauty as an indicator of health and success--then it would follow that pwBPDs would in fact be expected to reside in 'less attractive' categories, not the 'more attractive' ones.

To borrow your word from truthbeknown--it's been said that a borderline uses their only 'commodity' (physical attractiveness) to cyclically attempt to fill their black hole; e.g., the she-pushed-sex-so-we've-recycled instance. Then when the pwBPD combines self-punishment into a relationship over time, it may tend toward perversion. From there, it links to the idea of pwBPDs being models and porn actors. Other than that I don't recall seeing a link between any of the causes of the symptoms and physical attractiveness.

I don't think it's a red flag. I think that's good news.  

[Turkish]

Does this indicate something about them or about us?

[SlyQQ]

Yes there is a quote from a famous book that escapes me along the lines

there is nothing quite so appealing as someone who is desperately in love with you


also

https://independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/short-relationships-good-looking-people-attractive-study-claims-a7629106.html

[once removed]

red flags are about real danger. a red flag to me is "i shot my ex husband".

i knew a girl who told me she was the kind of girl that if a guy slighted her, she would seduce him, lead him into a back room, and brutally castrate him. she told me that people should be afraid of her, that she liked it that people were afraid of her. i also saw the pictures of an ex whos face she took a hammer to.

those are red flags.

most of the time when we discuss "red flags", they are more about incompatibilities or potential incompatibilities. they may be severe, like "i have cheated on all of my partners". they may be less severe, like easily losing your cool and blowing up at slight things. or they may just be a clash in style, behavior, personality, values, or what you have in common. in some cases, theyre telling signs that you want to either reassess, keep your investment/expectations low, or exit. the risk is in not reading the person, the situation, the writing on the wall, and to continue to invest. thats not a red flag in another person, its "unwisdom" on our part.

on beauty:

1. it would be a mistake to associate BPD with above average looks, or to put too much stock in men who thought their ex was exceptionally beautiful. i thought my ex was exceptionally beautiful. no one close to me did  .

2. men in general tend to put more emphasis on looks than women. women in general tend to put more emphasis on confidence, men that have their lives together, men who communicate well, are romantic, etc. obviously there are exceptions, women like good looking guys, and plenty of men like a strong, confident woman who has her life together.

3. most of us are at our best behaviorally and physically at the beginning of a relationship. we want to attract our prospects. if anything, i would take doing the opposite as a sign of disinterest.

4. a great deal of attraction for men and women alike is unconscious or subconscious. a persons physical attractiveness (or our physical attraction to them) doesnt really say anything.  

when i was in high school, i went for a number of women that i thought were exceptionally beautiful, but seemed to date guys "out of their league" (not a red flag). looking back, what did those particular women have in common? low self esteem (dating someone who is not as good looking as you does not suggest low self esteem). thats really where my attraction was, to compensate for my own low self esteem. there were plenty of gals i found more attractive, or about the same, but didnt click with, werent attracted to me, or maybe we clicked only a little. my takeaway is not to avoid good looking women that might have dated someone who is not as good looking. its to be more mindful to what im drawn to and perhaps shift gears.

[Cromwell]

Looking back, my ex was not more "hot" than other women I found attractive minus carrying any issues. Yet I gravitated towards her, especially during the initial hook, the sexual compatability was a strong hook but I had equally as good with other women that were my type. She also never told me she had BPD until the honeymoon period ended.

I agree there is some unhelpful talk in the literature of BPDs being "hot" but nothing to really justify it. There is no gene that makes it so, and as the saying goes beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I was attracted to my BPDx, I found her attractive and she simply coincidentally happened to have BPD. People normally get romantically involved and initially interested in a partner who is physically attractive so it is of no wonder that they found them "hot".

As time goes on, I realise that I had valuable opportunities with other women at the time who presented themselves as good personality, stable, successful, yet I gravitated to my BPDx, due to the emotional intensity of the hooks, that I couldnt explain to myself other than that id found someone who was not only attractive but a 'perfect' fit for my own personality.

To summarise my experience here, my ex was a super-seducer, attractive enough that I was interested, but nothing earth shattering different than I couldnt have had elsewhere, well I proved this to her by splitting up and going with her friend for the week. :D

They have the seduction game and manipulation at inordinate levels, regardless of the looks. Its a bit like how there is so many books and programs peddled by "pick up artists", how any average guy learning these "hacks" can seduce hot women that would normally be out of their league. I dont care for this, I find it too manipulative and superficial. I like a r/s based equally as much on emotional fulfillment as sexual unless im specifically just dating on the basis of no strings attached, which I was doing at the time I met her.

I had no intention at that time for a serious r/s, but she latched on quick as someone that could offer her the needs she wanted met. I had plenty of opportunities for my version of "hot" even for r/s but they didnt love bomb and super seduce me anywhere near to this extent, it was a flattering novelty and I didnt think anything red flagged or suspicious about it.

I used to show off and joke a bit with my friends when the texts used to pop in like crazy when I was with them, they were all slightly envious that I had all this super attention from a good looking girl and she offered great sexual compatability . The idea of being stalked by someone like that I would have imagined as flattering, considering I dont think much of myself to have ever been able to have had a stalker. Ive had really infactuated women who were "full on" but none that didnt accept when the r/s would fizzle out. Well the idea was exciting except when it actually happened. It was horrible, intrusive to the point of creepy and turned me off regardless of what id felt before. I could have done far better, her teeth were actually quite rotten due to heavy drinking, smoking and drug use, her feet smelled acrid most of the time, but the seduction she was masterful at, she enjoyed that I bolstered her low self esteem but once she felt that I was reciprocating the love bombing, and had fallen for the spell and was becoming naturally emotionally intimate, her behaviour became polarised, and cheating was the start of the mind games and acting out.

its why I spend this time now to work on myself, the reflection and introspection as a result tells me that there were lessons to be learned. Ive had interest by another "hottie" and just recently she said something "oh, id love a travelling partner, (eyes beguiling like crazy) its just that ive got some mental illnesses that have to be considered... ."

as soon as I heard that, i translated it into "lets go together, youll be the rescuer protector, ill be the vulnerable victim, but ill be the one really in control because i warned you what your getting into, theres never going to be guilt on my part, heres your hook plus my get out clause, you can see how upfront and honest I am by declaring this so openly from the start".

this was just the last of some smaller red flags Id already picked up for a few weeks knowing her. and yes shes my type, i find her "hot", but not more than other women ive got the same appreciation for, minus any red flags. At the moment im enjoying a stage of my life as "me time", I dont want to go anywhere near another human being until ive got rid of any residual BPD fleas im carrying its just not fair on anybody.

[zachira]

I don't think being good looking is a red flag for BPD though I do believe that borderline women are desperate for relationships, tend to dress to provoke maximum male attention, are often promiscuous, and have poor boundaries, which makes it easy to get them into bed. A borderline woman will often do everything she can to turn a man on sexually which can be considered "hot" by some men and a complete turn-off for others.

[Insom]

Hi, everyone!  Thanks for the great replies.  I'm sorry I haven't been able to respond to you individually (busy week) but wanted to check in and let you know I'm reading.

For the purpose of this conversation, may we view beauty and hotness as separate things?  While I agree with once removed's line of thinking that beauty is very often perceived as hot, especially by men, aren't there additional qualities that make someone appear transcendently compelling that have to do with attitude, style, posture, personality, adherence to specific norms, flouting of said norms, and so on?

Is it worth exploring what we're responding to when we find someone hot?  Do you understand how much of what you're responding to is contrived?  If on the extreme end of contrived, for what purpose?


 

[Turkish]

Do you understand how much of what you're responding to is contrived?  If on the extreme end of contrived, for what purpose?

What exactly do you mean?

[SlyQQ]

Marilyn Monroe

[MyBPD_friend]

Very interesting topic and discussion.

I might add someting from my experience with my ex friend (not gf).
When we met, it was her unbelievable eyes and how she looked at me when she caught my attention. I sware she was looking straight into my heart, which I've never experienced before (I'm 57!).

Second, it was her behaviour when we started talking and dancing that was so out of everything I've known. It was like a dream come true.

To keep it simple here, I didn't see her physical appearance as something special at first. She was not dressed hot, just jeans and a long sleeve shirt (I believe she has many scares on her arms and legs from cutting herself), her make-up was kept simple.

However, only after she 'love bombed' me for about two weeks, sending pictures of her and so on, I realized that this is a very beautiful woman.

Now we can agrue what attracts us more, physical charateristics or perhaps emotinally unbalanced behaviour?

[insideoutside]

I’ll be honest in the male friend who I believe has BPD is not a looker.  I didnt think so 29 years ago when we dated either; in fact I was quite physically repulsed by him but something always drew me in.

26 years later we reconnected and it was the charm I found very attractive and not something I saw in him 26 years prior.  Really thought he was my twin flame.  This I now know to be a huge in future.

[Lady Itone]

I would argue that a good looks are not in and of themselves a red flag, but a good looking person with a personality disorder can definitely work the "halo effect"-- how beautiful people are treated differently from us normal folk. And because they're treated special, they may not feel they need to work on themselves, therein reinforcing the bond between hotness and cluster B personality disorders.

My exNPDgf is a former runway model who puts a great deal of effort into her appearance, because her good looks assure that she'll always have "supply," men and women willing to put time and effort into being around her. So if one person won't put up with her crap, NEXT! She doesn't need to work on her awful personality, because she suffers no shortage of admirers. She always stands up very straight though she's over 6 feet tall, great posture, and she's overdressed for every occasion, in full makeup. She also changes up her look frequently. Then she walks into a place and pretends she doesn't see everyone checking her out. To this day, if I see her around I do a double take, like ":)amn, who is that?" Then realize it's her and look away.
She likes to act as if her beauty is a curse that keeps people from trying to know the "real her," while playing up her glamorous looks as much as possible.

My current BPDgf is equally tall and beautiful, but puts zero effort into it, no makeup, never dresses up, slouches when she walks trying not to look so tall. She's a lesbian who prefers to avoid the male gaze, but the generous breasts, legs for miles, the angel face--you can't hide 'em. I remember once, a very straight-looking waitress stopped in the middle of telling us the specials to inform my gf she just wanted to drown in her eyes.   I tried explaining to gf that most people don't get compliments like that from random strangers, but it happens to her all the time. She complains that people stare at her wherever she goes, she thinks they think she's weird or ugly. She doesn't understand they're staring because she's this stunning Amazon, and she tries to make herself invisible.

I suspect BPDgf's good looks have helped her plenty, though. Once, after we got in a fight because she was taking drugs, she caused a disturbance in a doctor's office. When they called cops, she resisted, and actually spit at one officer, tried to bite another. That they brought her to psyche ward and not jail amazes me. I suspect a less attractive woman would've been taken down harder. Because she's pretty and (normally) soft-spoken, she can play the waif, and people (me included) will try to take care of her and give her a pass on bad behavior.   

I do wonder if the particular kind of attention given to very attractive women can do damage, especially if it starts when they're young and vulnerable. For example, when I was a teenager, I lived at home with my parents and went to prom with a nice boy, having normal teenage girl experiences. ExNPDgf was in Milan dating rock stars. BPDgf was in a juvenile detention center fending off the sexual advances and jealousies of other troubled kids.   

I've also dated a few very goodlooking men in my life, but only one had NPD traits. He seems to have a fairly easy time moving through the world, much more at ease than the beautiful women I know. He plays up his hyper-masculinity, his deep base voice and Australian accent, dresses in leather pants and crocodile skin. He works out constantly to get those 6pack abs, runs a successful business, owns a nice house, a couple boats, a motorcycle, a hot tub. Women love him, and he goes through 'em like kleenex, cheating and lying and breaking hearts. 

I'm short, and a plain jane, and I have no idea what such attention feels like. Nobody makes a fuss when I walk in a place. Of course, I am thrilled when I manage to attract beautiful people. Perhaps because when I'm with them, I get to walk in the bubble a little, too.

One thing that strikes me is all 3 of the people I dated with PD's were in the last four years, after my divorce, in my 40's. I believe it's been proven that the older you get, the more people with personality disorders are in your dating pool (healthy people tend to be already in long-term, stable relationships.)

Also, they all love-bombed, and I fell for it hard.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Very interesting topic.

For me, my ex's were never "hot" or all that great looking. It was their confidence that attracted me except for my ex-husband. Long story short, one guy was very "book smart" and it turned out he probably has Antisocial PD. Another was an overt narcissist which is now painfully obvious. He was also extremely good at manipulating people to get what he wanted (very smooth talker) while not physically attractive (very overweight). 

In the beginning, my ex husband seemed like a genuinely nice awkward guy. He turned out to be a covert narcissistic BPD and he became emotionally abusive over the years. His awkwardness wasn't an act, it turned out. He's very socially awkward. Almost to the point of possibly having Asperger's.

[SlyQQ]

High level functioning aspergers is often mistaken for BPD

[Turkish]

High level functioning aspergers is often mistaken for BPD

My 8 year old son was diagnosed with ASD1, likely what they would have called Asperger's in the DSM-V.

DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Borderline PD and Aspergers/autism spectrum disorder

Skip gives a good summary in Reply#3. This discussion was under the old DSM-IV rubric, but it's interesting.

[truthbeknown]

My ex wife was an average looking woman and i loved her even though she wasn't a model.  I remember falling in love with her qualities at the time (which have changed dramatically now). 

Later in life after family trauma, hormone changes, surgeries etc her personality and physical appearance changed.  She gained alot of weight.  Everyone in her family struggles with this except her sister who has an eating disorder and is super thin. 

So first let me just say if she had remained kind, sweet to me and remained a good mother, i would not care about the extra pounds if medically she couldn't do anything about it.

However, since being divorced i have had more attractive partners to some degree.  I was looking for partners who were willing to take care of themselves physically.  So it was more of a health quality then a model quality.  I typically have not dated women who are really into excessive make up etc.   My last r/s was with a cute (sorry ladies i know women don't like this term but it was such an endearing quality for me) short woman and she was very photogenic and loved to pose for pictures.  My ex wife hated to be photographed so it was sort of refreshing to have the opposite trait (little did i know that could have been a red flag for naricissism?)

Anyway, i think it all comes down to the way they think of themselves- ie do they get High off of the attention of the opposite sex for their looks or can they be humble about it like the model Paulina.  I have known beautiful women who have been grounded and spiritual and they married jerks.  And sometimes not.   

In speaking with other men, they have said, "oh the hot ones are always crazy".  Maybe this is a generality but it has to do with them being objectified and whether they are strong enough to rise above that objectification.  I recently saw an interview with Sofia Loren and she talked about the "me too" issue and hollywood.  She spoke of how she was objectified by hollywood producers etc.   What made me ill was listening to the gentleman who was interviewing her because he kept saying things like, "well you're just as beautiful today as you were back then when you were younger."   On the surface he was trying to compliment her but underneath i felt he was objectifying her just like the old producers had done. 

She did a great job in realizing that she had a quality that was admired but she wanted people to know her for more then that. 

[zachira]

There seems to be a theme here: We are sometimes easily taken in by people who do everything to charm us and cover up who they really are, and when they show their true colors we really suffer. One of the most rewarding experiences for me is to give attention to people who don't get much, like people in wheel chairs, old people, etc, and I often find these people to be exceptionally caring people who really bring out the best in humanity.

[Husband321]

I think for BPD women, many tend to be more sexy/attractive.

One of the ongoing themes is "amazing sex" with a BPD woman. I don't think many unattractive women have the ability to hook guys with amazing sex if they are just unappealing.

I also think women whom are very attractive and BPD never have to change... They can go from guy to guy to guy. A very unattractive BPD might hit bottom much sooner.

 

[gotbushels]

Husband321   

One of the ongoing themes is "amazing sex" with a BPD woman.

Yes some BPs would seem more attractive to the non than others. Attractiveness and "amazing sex" also differ from person to person. Moreover the idea that sex can be used by a person to make up for deficiencies elsewhere in their lives provides BPs with an incentive to pursue that.

I also think women whom are very attractive and BPD never have to change... They can go from guy to guy to guy. A very unattractive BPD might hit bottom much sooner.

Yes, this seems possible. I can see how someone of lower attractiveness has a higher probability of being forced to confront serious issues like those that cause the BPD. The value of the reward when they use the rewarding modes may be perceived as 'lower' than a more attractive person doing the same thing. So what you said makes sense. 

My question is what are the few and direct signs to look for?

Any thoughts on this?

[Husband321]

I am also not sure, but I would think an unnattractive BPD woman may not have as many opportunities, which sort of means they might cling to the one man they land more. It's not as easy to run to another if you can't just post an internet ad and get 300 suitors of all ages, status, income levels etc. 

I think a "red flag" would be if you meet this sexy woman, with a great body, who is extremely sexual off the bat, who falls for you quickly, yet is somehow totally single.  If she is hot yet reserved, has a career, that doesn't seem like BPD to me.

While my BPD wife was in her first marriage, she would have a habit of just jumping on a sugar daddy site and meeting people.  Loads of men more than willing to support/move in/ marry a sexy younger charismatic girl.

So she personally never had a job in her entire life.  Never had to adjust her spending.  Never had to address her compulsiveness.  She was married ten years, then 2 years to me.  And in between those 12 years all sorts of suitors approaching her everywhere. So why should she do "hard work" to change in her mind?  Now I believe she is dating a professional baseball player and a woman.

It's like Sharon stone in casino.  If she was not attractive, she never would have been able to have so much power over so many men.  She might just be crazy and a homeless drug user, as she ultimately ended up.  But since she had BPD and looks she was able to get all kinds of men to give her money, support her, and allow her to carry on the same path.

[gotbushels]

I am also not sure, but I would think an unnattractive BPD woman may not have as many opportunities,
... .

OK. Your ideas here make sense.   

While my BPD wife was in her first marriage ... .
But since she had BPD and looks she was able to get all kinds of men to give her money, support her, and allow her to carry on the same path.

Yes, this makes sense. This seems like a 'kept woman' or 'gold digger' story.   

If she is hot yet reserved, has a career, that doesn't seem like BPD to me.

Yes, while people who are reserved and have careers may not fit specific types of BPD, there are other pwBPDs (and 'normal' people) that fit these 3 criteria. The issue on this includes that:

• 'waif' and 'hermit' styled BPDs would seem to me as initially 'reserved';
• high-functioning BPDs may have careers and are reported to be sometimes successful in them; and
• BPD traits often don't show up to SOs until a certain level of closeness has been reached.

To share, my expwPBD seemed 'hot', 'reserved', and 'had a career' in a reputable company. So these items giving me a 'green light' would probably have obscured my recognition of understanding the pathology. Anyway, I hope that this helps in showing that some criteria can actually have a deleterious effect on trying to avoid a pwBPD in the first place. Simply, items we think are usually marks of 'health' or 'attractiveness' may work against us.


Does this relate to your search for a new partner?

[Husband321]

OK. Your ideas here make sense.   
Yes, this makes sense. This seems like a 'kept woman' or 'gold digger' story.   
Yes, while people who are reserved and have careers may not fit specific types of BPD, there are other pwBPDs (and 'normal' people) that fit these 3 criteria. The issue on this includes that:

• 'waif' and 'hermit' styled BPDs would seem to me as initially 'reserved';
• high-functioning BPDs may have careers and are reported to be sometimes successful in them; and
• BPD traits often don't show up to SOs until a certain level of closeness has been reached.

To share, my expwPBD seemed 'hot', 'reserved', and 'had a career' in a reputable company. So these items giving me a 'green light' would probably have obscured my recognition of understanding the pathology. Anyway, I hope that this helps in showing that some criteria can actually have a deleterious effect on trying to avoid a pwBPD in the first place. Simply, items we think are usually marks of 'health' or 'attractiveness' may work against us.


Does this relate to your search for a new partner?

True... Sometimes when we write short posts we cannot lay out every possible example, red flag, situation etc. No doubt a hot career woman who is not impulsive sexually, who has her life together may also be BPD. And it may take longer to find out these types actually are BPD. So quick initial "red flags" do not pertain to all.

All people probably have some traits of BPD to varying degrees. I think the ones men most get hooked on, and that cause the most damage are the hot/sexy ones. Men leave their families for them, marry them, get them pregnant while ignoring the red flags.

Sex is a very powerful tool. So when we talk about BPD, if one is sexy and fit, and another BPD woman is out of shape and not attractive at all, the latter wields far less power, and quite honestly would not get a second date. So that BPD does not ruin lives. So while BPD may be equally distributed amongst all levels of looks, we do not really concern ourselves with the unattractive ones. Which is why we might think "hotness" is a sort of red flag. 

[gotbushels]

I think the ones men most get hooked on, and that cause the most damage are the hot/sexy ones.

Yes. The hot/sexy ones probably have higher 'hooking' power.  

Sex is a very powerful tool. ... .Which is why we might think "hotness" is a sort of red flag.  

Yes this makes good sense to me.

And it may take longer to find out these types actually are BPD. So quick initial "red flags" do not pertain to all.

I hear you Husband321. The 'time delay' red flags are the pickles it seems. To highlight the issue--it seems the general thinking(?) that the symptoms become more obvious to the SO as closeness increases. I'm hoping a senior might chime in here to mention how they would handle these. E.g., withdrawing image tantrum shows up after 2-4 weeks.  

Anyway, I think a dodgy thing about BPD is that closeness is correlated to the expression of the pathology--and there may be no way to avoid getting close 'enough' to toe the water but avoiding being deep enough to get out easily. There's a senior member I admire here who found his traited ex at a volunteer community--who would have thought? In the absence of those obvious signs--the dating non may have to bite the lemon to know how sour it is.

[truthbeknown]

my ex wife was not "hot" and she started letting herself go after our 2nd child.  I still loved her and wanted to have a loving family. Then when she aborted our last child and stopped having sex with me all i had left was to deal with her BPD traits.  She has not been with anyone since our divorce.  She seems more intent to destroy her health and the health of my kids in order to prove her victim status is real.  Part of it is just who she is.   I just wanted to mention this because not all BPD partners are super models. 

My last gf who turned out to have BPD traits almost seemed to use me to get her sexual confidence back and then got drunk on how she could use this to manipulate men.   She jumped into a rebound relationship before we were officially done and now i think they are done.  Unless something severe happens to change her she'll keep using her cuteness (she's cute more then hot but she was hot to me if you know what i mean).  The ironic part is that when i met my exgf she had some extra pounds and i still was enamored by her.  It was her complimentary ways and seemingly willingness to work on herself that was part of the alure. 

[gotbushels]

my ex wife was not "hot" and she started letting herself go after our 2nd child.  ... .

She seems more intent to destroy her health and the health of my kids in order to prove her victim status is real. Part of it is just who she is.  I just wanted to mention this because not all BPD partners are super models.  

truthbeknown  
Thank you for sharing. I think that's really handy to know. Gosh this can get so confusing. There's quite a wide variety of people with traits.

[truthbeknown]

truthbeknown  
Thank you for sharing. I think that's really handy to know. Gosh this can get so confusing. There's quite a wide variety of people with traits.

yes i just think there is a huge pool of people out there that just think of themselves (BPD or not) so it makes it harder to find someone who is stable (attractive or not)/ especially in my age range (50's)