Being called an abuser - Has that ever happened to you?

[Sky07]

My ex said I am emotionally and verbally abusive after our fights, lots of anger from my side and me criticising her. I'm still thinking about it. I can be mean sometimes but I am trying to understand if I am actually abusive. Thoughts from you guys?

[lighthouse9]

Hey Sky,

This is such a tough one and any claims of abuse should always be taken seriously. At the same time, it's pretty common for someone w/BPD to try and turn the tables and project onto their partner. With BPD being a shame based illness, it's not uncommon for a person to do whatever they can, even construct a different history or reality, to avoid feeling those really painful shame emotions.

I'm not in your life and can't tell you if you've been abusive or not. What I can tell you is that this is something I've always kept on my radar for myself, because I grew up with an incredibly emotionally and verbally abusive father. I've always feared that I'll unknowingly do the things he does, and in all likelihood have. However, the last time I tried to see a therapist for anger management (a longggg time ago), she kind of laughed a little bit and said that I had every right to be angry regarding the situation that lead to me exploding.

Have you ever seen the power and control wheel? There's different versions depending sometimes on the specific focus, but here's one from a domestic violence resource: www.ncdsv.org/images/powercontrolwheelnoshading.pdf

Do you see your behavior in there at all? If so, how can you unlearn it, especially if its something that comes out in really highly emotionally intense situations? Therapy is excellent for this, if you haven't gotten there already.

When I look at this wheel, I see how my ex might perceive some situations very differently than I do. For example, she talked about how I would never let her go out, but as far as I knew, that didn't happen. I did, however, at times ask her to be around later when I would get done with work and when I didn't do a good job of being done when I said I would be, she felt like I was the one controlling her and making her sit around with nothing to do. During our break up, she kept accusing me of isolating her from people and not letting her go anywhere. I validated her feelings of isolation and took responsibility for not being done on time, and also asked her what she thought would have happened if she would have told me she was going out when I repeatedly didn't get done on time to spend time with her. She was kind of stumped for a second and had an AHA moment. I got used to there being no ramifications for being late, she never told me she was upset, therefore I had no reason to change my behavior and had no idea that there was a storm brewing just below the surface. She then told me "I should have just made plans or let you know that I felt isolated while waiting around for you." Boom. I'm no longer an abusive jerk, we both took responsibility for being inconsiderate to the relationship, and we did a bit of fact checking together. Unfortunately, she's still gone and this might not have done much to erase any of her revised memories, but it did give me some insight into how she was thinking.

So, besides doing your own self-awareness work, do you see anything you could have validated in her claims, like I did? AKA the feeling of isolation was a valid emotion, but claiming that I was the one intentionally isolating her to control her was not. Remember, validate the valid.

[Sky07]

Hi Lighthouse,

Thanks for the wheel. Similar to you, I can see how my ex saw some of the things I said a lot differently. I criticize sometimes and it could be seen as putting her down and calling her names. I didn't do it with that purpose and when she brought it up, I got defensive. I still worked on stopping my behaviour but I still got defensive. I slipped up our last fight and it really angered her.

In our relationship, I was having issues with my emotions because I felt like no matter what I did, she never trusted me and didn't wanted to spend time with me. I was honest with her when I was disappointed when she cancelled or asked for space and it made her feel guilty. I told her it made me feel guilty to ask for more of her time and that I needed time to work on my emotions but she still felt guilty. I just needed an outlet and now I go to therapy, I feel a lot better because I can talk to someone. I didn't say my emotions because I wanted to guilt-trip her. I said it because I needed someone to talk to. I guess, she didn't understand that.

She has complained about not being able to see her friends. I encouraged her to do so but she felt like because she tried to see me so much because I ask for her time so much, she gets tired and as such has no energy for her friends. I told her not to worry about me but it didn't work.

I get defensive when she tells me things. It happens a lot on messenger. I kept telling her that I hate fighting online and to do it in real life but she wouldn't do it that way. Online, my defensiveness gets really worse. She does it in a way that makes me feel like I am under attack. I guess, it is seen as not taking her concerns seriously and shifting responsibility. Again, while I do get defensive, I work on the issues still and try to fix them, I just never managed to explicitly tell her that. That I was working on it.

I can see how some of the things I did can be viewed as abusive but it was never my intention. I wanted her to listen to me. I wanted her to do an effort to engage in me. It was mostly me that made plans to see her and organised things. I asked her to initiate but it just ends up in more and more cancellations. I 'blew; up at the end, (it looks bad on messenger but in real life, I was just defeated) frustrated that nothing I was doing was making her more comfortable, that the cancellations wouldn't stop and even when she was with me, she was always too anxious and it made me feel so guilty, like I was pushing her to be with me.

I just wanted to feel like she actually wanted to be there with me.

Like you see, I always got defensive. I never validated her. I grew up with a physically, emotionally and verbally abusive father. I worked hard to not be physically abusive but I totally missed the emotional and verbal abuse part or I have a high tolerance to it because of my environment and some things are not emotional abuse to me but can be seen as such by other people.

My therapist doesn't think I am abusive. She says the same thing your therapist said to you, I had the right to be angry and disappointed for the events that happened. I haven't spoken to her about the criticism part yet, will do so soon but I do accept it was my fault. I tried to fix it and I slipped up. It's not something that is gonna be fixed in a day or two. I wish my ex understood that and saw that I wasn't trying to hurt her.

[once removed]

good discussion.

the term "abusive" has a great deal of stigma and shame, so i applaud your efforts to own your actions.

its a little more important to me that for whatever label we put on our behavior, we own it completely.

i did a number of things im not proud of. it is true that i was reacting to her behavior. it is also true that i havent done those things with anyone else.

thats chicken and egg stuff. the reality is that i was in that mess of a situation willingly, and all of it took two. the other reality is that when faced with adversity, i was overwhelmed, and acted badly, in a way contrary to my values.

from 30000 feet, a lot of what you describe sounds like communication difficulties, incompatibilities, reactions to perceived slights (both sides), some manipulation (both sides), etc. not really hearing each other but talking at each other, frustration, not a lot of problem solving between the two of you, and both of you in a defensive position as you described.

one of my favorite resources is one i found here, called the fair fighting rules. this is all stuff we can learn and take into healthier relationships in the future: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=164901.0

[Sky07]

I was a lot calmer before my relationship with my ex.

I got defensive with the push/pull dynamics and the constant change of moods. I closed myself off, I had too many emotions bottled in and so much frustration. I tried to tell them that I wanted to vent out and tell them what I feel and not to take it to heart but they always did. I needed an outlet but I felt like they didn't want to hear any of it while I have been listening and supporting them all the time.

I couldn't support them as well as myself at the same time so I asked for support from them. They couldn't deliver, which frustrated me even more. I got so tired, so drained. I am a very active and energetic person. At the end, I was so so tired, my emotions were frayed, my reactions were short, I got angry faster, annoyed faster, disappointed faster. It just festered and I had no one to talk to. Each time I tried to talk to them, I felt like they were more concentrated on how it made them feel (guilty, sad etc) compared to trying to soothe me. I see how stupid it is now, how can someone that cannot self-soothe, soothe me.

I have now an outlet to my emotions in my therapist, it has helped me calm down and regain some strength. I feel less tired and getting better slowly.

My intent in my relationship wasn't to hurt. I wish they could see that.

[Cromwell]

Not an abuser as such, but plenty of stuff along the same lines which I was shocked at the time and had to engage in "what on earth is she talking about?", until I realised, what she was calling me was an excellent insight into who she was, but didnt like. "projection".

its always worth listening to stuff that you get called, and if it confuses you, theres a good chance that it is a projection from that persons own psyche that they feel uncomfortable about themselves.

[lighthouse9]

Hey Sky,

You're doing some really good work here - and I know it's not easy stuff. You also named a lot of things that sound like excellent places to learn some new skills before your next relationship, or even with any lingering communication with your ex. The don't JADE stuff really hit me hard - as did some stuff I was reading in a coaching program that taught me to "express my emotions without defending them." I spent a lot of time in my relationship trying to convince my wife that what I was feeling was valid, so much so that we ended up spending way too much time talking about what I was feeling. It was pointless, and really sad if I'm to be perfectly honest. Since being back in my hometown with my FOO, I can really see where I learned that I needed to justify or defend my emotions. Validation is not a skill set that I grew up with and being home, going through something so hard, it's so obvious that they are (at least right now) completely incapable of validation. I caught myself trying to justify what I was feeling, and lately I've just said forget it. I feel what I feel.

Oh how I wish I would have learned this sooner and could have taken it into any number of my relationships, especially with my wife. I developed some chronic pain stuff that took up way too much room in our relationship. I'm not trying to blame myself for everything, but I can see how much I took her struggles as personal attacks. That's another thing I've been trying to learn - not taking everything personally. Alas, it's another remnant from my family of origin and I had a recent fight with my dad where he said that "everything should be taken personally." Lightbulb moment for me, for sure.

I may be off here, but I think with someone struggling with BPD (or anyone that is emotionally sensitive), it's burden enough to try to express yourself or make sense of your emotions. Have you heard the whole quip that folks with BPD are like emotional burn victims? I can't imagine living with that much sensitivity. Imagine feeling that and then having someone else's stuff launched onto you. In a healthy relationship, where people have good emotional boundaries, it should be fine to have someone talk to you and tell you about their stuff. For someone with BPD, it's like being handed a campfire to hold with your already burnt hands. This isn't to say that people w/BPD can't be wonderful empathetic partners at times, but it is to say that they might struggle more when triggered or dysregulated.   

You nailed it when you talked about how they "were more concentrated on how it made them feel compared to trying to soothe me." I experienced something similar near the end of our relationship. In the beginning though, my wife was an excellent soother and I came to rely on it too much. She has always been a caretaker for everyone in her life, and when I needed less "care" she kind of lost her way in the relationship. That's the whole mixed up sense of self thing. I know she really struggled in the end to know who she was and a more independent me probably exacerbated that.

I'm really glad you're talking to your therapist about this stuff. I'm doing the same. I've also recultivated some friendships with people that I know I can take anything to, no matter how dark and twisty. It's funny, because doing that has encouraged them to do the same and we've had more intimate friendships because of it. I'm learning that I could have been doing this all along and that not everything had to be brought to my wife. Lessons learned, right?

So back to the abuse thing... .
you said "My intent in my relationship wasn't to hurt." I imagine it wasn't, and for most people it never is, even with big time abusers. You can own your intent but you can't own your impact. If this were to go to court, I'd say sure, fight for the "truth" with your impact, but it doesn't sound like you're in that position. Your ex can and will believe what she wants about your relationship, and she'll assign whatever impact she wants to it. Are you two still in touch and are these still conversations you're having?

[Enabler]

This is part of a letter I wrote after my W left in 2007. It was a time when I hadn't heard about BPD let alone spent time learning about it... .was I abusive, or finally sticking up for myself... .it depends on who's perspective you take, but I know I frightened her:

It didn't take very long for disappointment to kick in. Jealousy crept back, and then the demands, the unreasonable lack of flexibility when I suggested going out with work mates (not that we were doing anything other than watching TV), the tantrums, the depression and the arguments... .all over nothing. I found myself feeling guilty for living in X so would try and give you a lift to and from Y although when I picked you up you would often either be immensely rude, ignore me or kick off into an argument about something or other. I would make excuses at work why I couldn't go out after work or go to work functions, eventually people would rip the mick out of me saying that I couldn't go out because the Bill was on but in fact it was because I didn't want to rile you again. My level of frustration reached critical points. I had done everything humanly possible to make you happy... .all I wanted was you to be happy and I suppose rather selfishly wanted you to be happy with me, happy with the decisions I make, in the knowledge that none of them were malicious or that if they were slightly contrary to your  best interest it was because it was fair and disserved due to good service. You seemed not to notice and much of the response I would get would be objectionary, initial reactions tended to be negative, not thinking about my best interest but the inconvenience you might experience... .how much consideration to my inconvenience was given when your planned evenings out? I don't know. Despite not giving a damn about what I wanted you still expected princess treatment. What I should have done was ignored you and continued about doing what I wanted to do... .things which made me happy, made me laugh, with people who respected me and let me be myself... .instead I boiled over in a rage of anger, hatred and disappointment that despite all my efforts to be a fair, good, loving husband I was being made to feel like and @rsehole. I lashed out in a torrent of abuse and violence which had probably... .given the 7 pages proceeding... .built up over the previous 4.5 5 years and I can imagine would be very very very frightening. I think I reached a point when I could no longer tollerate the years of boxing in , compromising, inconvienience, unfairness and lack of my own and your consideration from ME. I had realised that I was no longer myself and that by trying to be someone else I wasn't winning any prizes or reaping any rewards. I lost any respect I had for you. It dawned on me that someone who couldn't make their own decisions, who got stressed cooking and couldn't handel the pressure of a day in the office, someone who was never happy unless drunk and who couldn't hold an arguement without walking away and crying was not telling me how and what I should be doing, someone who always said I can't do it then had an opinion how I should have done it after the event... .You were going to live by my rules as yours were clearly rubbish and if this meant ramming it down your throat so be it... .and so started the agressive backlash about anything and everything I disagreed with, any objection you had with me... .why tollerate it, why pander to it, why agree with it, it didn't get me anywhere before. Shouting, screaming, lashing out... .that made you get the message and in my mind it made you think twice about kicking up a fuss, emotionally blackmailing me or trying to make me change again. See the rubbish thing about that was I was now part of the problem, in fact I was the problem. Rather than it just you being irrational demanding  and a bit physcho it was me who was the nutter, me losing control and most of all... .me who was now and @rsehole. None of your friends, my friends or family would put much weight on a hormonal girl being possessive, jealous or nerotic faced with a monster who terrorises his wife and makes her fear for her safety. Did I achieve anything? No, you didn't learn to cut me some slack, you didn't learn to respect me, my feelings understand that I want to go out have a laugh... .quite the opposite. You cut me slack because you stopped caring, stopped respecting me, stopped understanding how I was thinking, what I was thinking and couldn't understand what or why I was doing what I was doing. So then I had to drum into you that I wasn't an @rsehole... .disaster.

I have been angry, I have been aggressive, I have been threatening, I have been intimidating but that does not mean I am an angry, aggressive, threatening and intimating person. The important thing is that you can observe your behavior, be self critical, feel AND DEAL with the guilt and shame of your behaviour to make changes. pwBPD do not have a monopoly on emotional dysregulation, we all do it and we all express ourselves in different ways when we are overwhelmed. Self-reflection helps us understand ourselves and learn to read our own emotions and physical signals and ACT to change. Educating yourself about BPD, truly understanding your SO and shielding your ego from their attacks can help defend yourself against emotional dysregulation.

[Cromwell]

What an excellent letter. It doesnt cease to amaze me how much I read here, I experienced for myself. It is like all these people out there with their BPDd partners have lived pretty much parallel lives.

I write mine so many letters, but thankfully never showed her one, they helped get it out the system - a little.

I felt and still do feel that by showing her

a) she lacks the empathy to understand any of it anyway (my feelings)
b) she would have probably just smirked at "what a good job she had done"

Its a lose-lose situation, even a mild case of answering her back when she went too far, she wouldnt say anything at the time but it was never forgotten like a deep held grudge that would then require pay back in some form or another when she could get the chance to.

BPD as an excuse? I must have been more bonkers than her to put up with it all. thats my excuse.

[Enabler]

FWIW the result of that letter was she came home, I asked no questions and 6m later we weee expecting our first child. 10 years later we are “supposed” to be getting a divorce. The point of that extract is to show that we’re all capable of abuse if that’s what someone wants to call it. Events taken in isolation are often extreme, angry and aggressive but they don’t neceaarily represent abuse. I sometimes wonder whether or not my wife abuses me or whether or not since it is her fighting for what she needs (her perception not the norm) makes it not abuse. I mean would you be angry at someone for scratching you if they were trying to stop themselves from drowning?

[Sky07]

My ex blocked me everywhere and I am in the process of writing them a letter.

I started with a letter like yours Enabler but my therapist gave me some new guidelines. Kind of a non-blamey letter. I want them back but I don't know if they will see my side. I'm unsure how to proceed with this. Do I tell them the truth about my actions or do I just say sorry for everything?

[Enabler]

I am not sure what that letter did for my W, I'm not sure whether or not it influenced her feelings at all in the slightest and to be honest I am not sure if there were other "things" going on at the time that I was unaware of. Things were never discussed when she came home and we just cracked on with things. I don't know whether that letter served as an explanation for her, an admission of guilt or just a thing. I do know for a fact that it hasn't changed the way that she perceives that period and the things I have read of her in the last year+ would suggest she still looks at that period as I was the abuser and she was the helpless victim.

I honestly don't know what type of letter you should write, whether you should write a letter at all and whether any type of letter will serve to actually change the way your W perceives you. I'm inclined to think that the letters I have written her do more harm than good, unless they are perfectly timed. From what I have experienced, timing is everything. Writing her a letter like that when she is in full blown dysregulation and painting you black will just be seen as invalidating, divisive and attempting to gloss over my guilt... .sending that letter when she's on the turn and less emotional, capable of some level of personal reflection could result in her taking onboard what you say.

Like I said before, this letter was sent prior to knowing ANYTHING about childhood trauma, BPD or anything. It was gloves off and held no punches at all. Would I write it now? No.

[SlyQQ]

Anyone in a close romatic relationship with some with BPD is an abuser,

even if there sweetness and light and brings flowers everyday,

seriously it just comes with the territory, so you may as well own it.

its just most people don't know it

[Sky07]

Enabler,

I'm not going to write it the way you did. I will explain my side and tell them how much I love them. It will be my last letter, my last attempt. If this changes nothing, then it is the end. I just cannot give up without one last try.

SlyQQ, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[Enabler]

Knowing what you know especially about BPD, do you think that telling your BPD wife something that is contrary to her feelings (fact) is going to result in her changing her feeling (facts) about you and the situation?

Do you think that JADE (Justify, Argue, Deny & Explain) works from what you know and have read?

[SlyQQ]

There are many types of domestic and family violence. It is violent, abusive or intimidating behaviour by a partner, carer or family member to control, dominate or cause fear. It doesn't have to be physical abuse.


this is one of many general defenitions of abuse,

someone with BPD is in constant fear there partner will leave them, it intimadates them changes there behaviour and all the other normal hallmarks of domestic violence,

if you are nice to them it intimadates them an evokes fear  , because  the fear you will leave  increases the closer you come to them ,(or even that you are hiding something)

if you keep them at arms length ( another intimidating behaviour ) there scared you are planing to leave catch 22,

whatever you do your behaviours are responsible for a reign of terror.

[Enabler]

SlyQQ,

This maybe true in the eye of pwBPD, however I think Sky07 is trying to explain HIS behaviour to his SO. He is trying to explain and make himself accountable for his behaviours and put that on the table in an adult way. He rightly and appropriately wants to lay himself bare and hold his hands up to his own behaviours in a context of wider chaos. The impression I get is he wants to say "this is what I did, this is why I did it, this is what I am going to do about it." This is a good thing for an adult to do and in the context of a normal healthy relationship would be building bridges such that the other person would hopefully discuss their own role in the chaos.

I agree with you that BPD traits can lead to abusive behaviour, intentionally or unintentionally in their desperate attempt to get their perceived NEEDS met and salve their fear of abandonment... .BUT... .I also agree that a reactive-non ( I will hold my hand up and confess to being one) can cross the line into abusive behavior in response. We all have to be accountable for our behaviour, we all (there are exceptions) have the choice to walk away albeit at a cost potentially. Many of us have chosen to stay and in staying have behaved badly and inappropriately. Many of us have found ourselves trying to control our partners, have been intimidating towards, have even been violent towards them in response to their behaviour. What excuses do we have? Very few. Making ourselves accountable for letting ourselves down and often not behaving in accordance with our personal values is just as important as understanding our partners behaviour.

Sky07 I think wants to do this in a constructive way. I just think he needs to understand that what is constructive in a normal relationship may well be destructive in this relationship however well intended it is.

[Sky07]

I'm apologising for all of it. I have been accused of emotional and verbal abuse. I never hit them.

I want to apologise to her and her dad and show her how much I love her. She has already left and there is nothing more to lose except me putting my heart out there and her crushing it.

[Enabler]

Do you have expectations she will reciprocate your apology?

Be careful not to validate the invalid... .i.e. that you are an abusive person.

You did abusive things, you are not an abusive person (my assumption, but doubt you would be here if you were).

[Sky07]

I'm specifically apologising for all instances she took it as abuse. Like what I said and did. I'm not explicitly calling myself an abuser. I hope it is enough. I don't know what else I can do.

My expectation is that she sees the real me and comes back. I still love her.

[Enabler]

Okay so you have expectations that by your JADEing she will see the real you which is different from her current perception of you (which is very real to her)?

She will come to her senses and you will correct her narrative about you?

What will you do about all the things you said about her which you meant at the time, how will she accept those things? Given pwBPD's innate lack of trust, why would she believe you, or more likely, why would she not think that you are trying to manipulate her?

It's my view that pwBPD are skeptical of our motivations, after all one tends to judge others by our own standards and since pwBPD will often say anything to get what they want, why would you not just be saying whatever it takes to win her back. 

I would put aside your desire to "fix it". Fix you and she will see that. That doesn't mean not being kind to her, loving and caring, but it does mean accepting what was said, accepting you can't take it back, accepting that she's unlikely to believe you anyway and will be more inclined to hold on to the negative words you said in the fight... .until that is she doesn't. You are unlikely to be the arbiter of that.

[once removed]

sound advice, Enabler.

Sky07, you might want to work up a draft, and post/get feedback on the Bettering board before proceeding.

[SlyQQ]

The point i am making is if you don't want to be an abuser walk away, and deal with them from a safe emotional distance

it is the only way not to put yourself in the role of an abuser, you can help, but not from the position of an intimate relationship.

[Enabler]

I think most people would feel abused if their SO did something on a regular basis that caused them mental or emotional distress... .  but what happens when the truth is emotionally distressing? Are we entitled to be protected from a truthful factual based reality and is it our rite to live in whatever fantasy world we like without anyone calling the BS card?

[once removed]

but what happens when the truth is emotionally distressing? Are we entitled to be protected from a truthful factual based reality and is it our rite to live in whatever fantasy world we like without anyone calling the BS card?

at a certain point, yeah.

lets take a simple example.

lets say i dont like your hair. you like your hair. for the sake of the argument, either most people like your hair, or maybe most people dont. doesnt matter.

i tell you i dont like your hair. you dont care, you like it. yeah, well, most people dont, i say. its bad. you should change it.

i do the same thing in a few days, and again after that. eventually, you tell me to stop. i dont.

over time, you get angry. you tell me you like your hair, you dont care or i or anyone else thinks, that youre an adult entitled to their own choices, and to have some decency and respect, and drop it. i tell you you live in a fantasy world. people dont like your hair. its bad.

something like this happened to me. yes i would call it abusive. yes i believe people at and to a certain point are entitled to their reality, we are entitled to ours, and neither party need push theirs on the other.

[Enabler]

Isn’t the quality of my hairstyle supposition or opinion rather than factual truth?

It is a fact I am not considering having an affair, and I know that for a fact.

It is a fact that I have never declined sex with my wife in 20 years, I have not withheld sex as she claims.

It is a fact that we as a household spend more than my income and that is unsustainable

Is it a fact that there was a crash on the motorway which meant I was late home meaning she was late for a ladies night out, and it’s not something I did intentionally to inconviemience her?

The truth or the facts in these situations are destressing for her as they conflict with her juncture that I am intentionally harming her and acting intentionally to starve her of her needs. And someone other than he has to be accountable for those constraints.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I think that BPD people tend to equate their feelings with facts. They feel a certain way and therefore it becomes "fact" as well as the one and only "truth". Anything that differs from their "truth" is a lie to them.

lighthouse9, thank you for posting the link to the wheel. It really helps.

My ex (uBPD\NPD) was emotionally abusive to me. He claims I abused him all this time and that he's the victim. Several therapists have told me repeatedly he abused me and I did not abuse him. One of our marriage counselors confirmed this to me as well since she witnessed his behavior towards me time and time again. We're divorced now and he brings it up often usually during one of his rants. I could probably write a book on the various ways he abused me. The physical intimidation was one of the worst ones, IMO. There's nothing quite like having a much taller, larger man tower over you in a fit of rage inches from your face daring you to hit him then telling you that was nothing. That he's capable of so much violence but he's holding it back. I don't even remember what set him off that time.

In looking at the wheel, it helps to validate that I wasn't imagining or making up his abusive behavior as he claimed. I've thought about it and talked it over at length with my own therapist to see how I could have possibly abused him or make him feel abused. I really felt flabbergasted for a long time and still do at times. We couldn't come up with anything remotely abusive. More than likely, he's probably projecting.

He finally told me not long ago that I abused him by forcing him to make decisions on his own and he feels abused when I don't agree with him. That was it. It's true I didn't make a lot of decisions during our marriage. Long story short, I hated to make decisions out of fear of being wrong and ridiculed for it. I also didn't know how to communicate my feelings to anyone and I was emotionally shutdown for most of my life. So I let him do pretty much whatever he wanted. I'm not sure how that equates to abuse but okay.

As for not agreeing with him, during and after our divorce, I worked really hard with my therapist to find my voice. To find a way to speak my mind without being aggressive. During our marriage, I rarely disagreed with him on anything. We were together for almost 20 years. So when I finally first stared to speak up around him, it didn't always come out nicely. It was very difficult for me to listen to him call me nasty names in front of the kids and sometimes I would explode and yell back at him telling him what he could go do to himself. After holding it in for years, it felt good to let it out. Problem is that's not a good solution. It took time, therapy, and practice to not react to his outbursts.

Feelings aren't wrong. Our realities and perceptions are different. I've learned to accept that so I can move on. Since then, I've learned that I communicate just fine with pretty much everyone except for him. It feels like we speak completely different languages and it's a struggle to get some basic ideas across to him at times. I have to work really hard at using BIFF and grey rock with him as well. It doesn't always go well in that I'll write something that is very BIFF and grey rock usually in response to something about the kids and he will refuse to read it claiming I'm abusing him. It still boggles my mind at times. I'll ask a friend to read what I wrote to see if it's even remotely bad or abusive. They tell me it's not. That it's very business like, short, and to the point. Not sure how he can claim it's abusive when he hasn't even read it. It's very odd to me and I usually have to chalk it up to his brain being wired differently than mine. Don't even get me started on his hypocrisy.

[once removed]

It is a fact that I have never declined sex with my wife in 20 years, I have not withheld sex as she claims.

yes. i remember my ex saying i never initiated sex. i spent my time (literally hours) arguing with that and citing all the times i had rather than listening to what was driving it.

what i, and i think we, are talking about has less to do with who is abusive, and more to do with not trying to win an argument or debate or convince our partners of something. that, at a certain point (not speaking to your case) can become abusive, if not pointless.

[Sky07]

at a certain point, yeah.

lets take a simple example.

lets say i dont like your hair. you like your hair. for the sake of the argument, either most people like your hair, or maybe most people dont. doesnt matter.

i tell you i dont like your hair. you dont care, you like it. yeah, well, most people dont, i say. its bad. you should change it.

i do the same thing in a few days, and again after that. eventually, you tell me to stop. i dont.

over time, you get angry. you tell me you like your hair, you dont care or i or anyone else thinks, that youre an adult entitled to their own choices, and to have some decency and respect, and drop it. i tell you you live in a fantasy world. people dont like your hair. its bad.

something like this happened to me. yes i would call it abusive. yes i believe people at and to a certain point are entitled to their reality, we are entitled to ours, and neither party need push theirs on the other.

I have done what you mentioned here. I have commented about her hair a few times. The last time where she got really angry at me, I said that I found that it looked childish then told her about how everyone had that hairstyle in my primary school. She got hurt and I told her that she didn't have to change it, I was just doing an observation. She still stayed mad. Later, I told her that I wasn't trying to hurt her and that it looks cute. She remained angry.

My problem is I have a hard time saying "sorry". I say sorry not in words but by doing things for the other person.

[once removed]

so tell us a bit more about the exchange with your therapist. does she give any reason why she thinks what she thinks? does she give anything to compare it to? and what do you think?