She's made contact, time to discuss next steps

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hi good people,

If you've been following my story, you'll know that I've been waiting for my wife to return from a work training for almost two months and that we had discussed her filing for divorce upon her return. I've been on the detaching board since I found out she was fabricating details and outright lying about going to counseling, because I realized at that point that she was in no place to do the kind of work I'd need to see to consider reconciliation. Our break up was confusing, out of nowhere, and riddled with her shame. Working with therapists, there's some debate over whether her behavior fits more BPD or bipolar, though they've been leaning more towards bipolar (at least in this last episode) and maybe BPD as well. Obviously, they can't diagnose without seeing her, but their input has been helpful. If this last episode was a manic or hypomanic episode (shows all classic signs), then there's a chance she comes down from it and wants to reconcile. Or, there's probably an equally good chance that being out of sight out of mind for almost two months means that she's had enough time to restructure her memory to not really have any reason to want to continue. She dropped me quickly and I may be less than a memory at this point. There's no real way to tell, except to talk to her and feel the pulse.

I was a little surprised that she got in touch right away and seemed to be on top of all the logistics that she needs to handle. Previously, I've had to remind her of these things. She mentioned making steps this week to learn about the divorce process and figuring out what our next steps are. Not once in all of this has she used the word divorce - it seems to pain her too much.

Following the advice of my therapist, I kept things low key and not intense, asked how she was doing, thanked her for being on top of details, and asked if she'd be willing to connect over the phone sometime soon. She offered to call immediately, but I was busy, so we have a call scheduled for later this week. In the mean time, I kept casual and kind email conversation going over trivial topics and she pinged back each time with the same friendly tone.

It's way too soon to tell what's going to happen next, but I wanted to set some goals for myself so I don't get sucked into a fantasy I have of reconciling without keeping my facts in check.

First, no matter what happens, I do firmly believe that it's been the right thing to detach from the marriage as it was. There were too many things both of us were doing to contribute to a less than ideal situation. I've been really working hard to do my part of the work, not just for her, but because I want to be someone that can lead the way in a relationship and want more from myself and for myself, whether with her or otherwise. I've done this work regardless of what she's been doing, and that's been really healthy for me. So, no matter what, I want to be able to keep reminding myself that the detachment process has been both necessary and healthy.

Second, and maybe I'll have to jump over to bettering if this becomes more than just one phone conversation for us, I want to work realllly hard not to overwhelm her, to not JADE her, and to validate the valid. I also want to be realistic about my own needs, not obsess or ruminate about things, and continue to do the things that I enjoy for myself and not purely as distractions, though distractions will be necessary.

Third, I may need some support with language if there is an opportunity to encourage her to get support. I'm not sure if she ever followed through with counseling or not, and not sure she'd even tell me or if she was being truthful if she did. My therapist recommended some low key ways to bring this up, but any advice you all can give would be great. I want to back away from the "you're sick and need help" approach and really move towards the "you're amazing and deserve support to live your best life" approach.

Fourth, this could all end really quickly again and this small window is completely one that I'm opening and not one she is leaving open, so there's a more than good chance that this crashes quickly. If so, I'll be back to detach once and for all. I've read a lot about how to start a new relationship with your spouse after a separation and while I've brought it up to her in the past, I don't know where she stands now. She was so back and forth about it before, it was hard to tell what was her true desire. My goal since then has been to just back off. Now it's time to see what, if anything, backing off did.

Keeping my head up in the uncertainty,

-Lighthouse

[lighthouse9]

Hi good people,

If you've been following my story, you'll know that I've been waiting for my wife to return from a work training for almost two months and that we had discussed her filing for divorce upon her return. I've been on the detaching board since I found out she was fabricating details and outright lying about going to counseling, because I realized at that point that she was in no place to do the kind of work I'd need to see to consider reconciliation. Our break up was confusing, out of nowhere, and riddled with her shame. Working with therapists, there's some debate over whether her behavior fits more BPD or bipolar, though they've been leaning more towards bipolar (at least in this last episode) and maybe BPD as well. Obviously, they can't diagnose without seeing her, but their input has been helpful. If this last episode was a manic or hypomanic episode (shows all classic signs), then there's a chance she comes down from it and wants to reconcile. Or, there's probably an equally good chance that being out of sight out of mind for almost two months means that she's had enough time to restructure her memory to not really have any reason to want to continue. She dropped me quickly and I may be less than a memory at this point. There's no real way to tell, except to talk to her and feel the pulse.

I was a little surprised that she got in touch right away and seemed to be on top of all the logistics that she needs to handle. Previously, I've had to remind her of these things. She mentioned making steps this week to learn about the divorce process and figuring out what our next steps are. Not once in all of this has she used the word divorce - it seems to pain her too much.

Following the advice of my therapist, I kept things low key and not intense, asked how she was doing, thanked her for being on top of details, and asked if she'd be willing to connect over the phone sometime soon. She offered to call immediately, but I was busy, so we have a call scheduled for later this week. In the mean time, I kept casual and kind email conversation going over trivial topics and she pinged back each time with the same friendly tone.

It's way too soon to tell what's going to happen next, but I wanted to set some goals for myself so I don't get sucked into a fantasy I have of reconciling without keeping my facts in check.

First, no matter what happens, I do firmly believe that it's been the right thing to detach from the marriage as it was. There were too many things both of us were doing to contribute to a less than ideal situation. I've been really working hard to do my part of the work, not just for her, but because I want to be someone that can lead the way in a relationship and want more from myself and for myself, whether with her or otherwise. I've done this work regardless of what she's been doing, and that's been really healthy for me. So, no matter what, I want to be able to keep reminding myself that the detachment process has been both necessary and healthy.

Second, and maybe I'll have to jump over to bettering if this becomes more than just one phone conversation for us, I want to work realllly hard not to overwhelm her, to not JADE her, and to validate the valid. I also want to be realistic about my own needs, not obsess or ruminate about things, and continue to do the things that I enjoy for myself and not purely as distractions, though distractions will be necessary.

Third, I may need some support with language if there is an opportunity to encourage her to get support. I'm not sure if she ever followed through with counseling or not, and not sure she'd even tell me or if she was being truthful if she did. My therapist recommended some low key ways to bring this up, but any advice you all can give would be great. I want to back away from the "you're sick and need help" approach and really move towards the "you're amazing and deserve support to live your best life" approach.

Fourth, this could all end really quickly again and this small window is completely one that I'm opening and not one she is leaving open, so there's a more than good chance that this crashes quickly. If so, I'll be back to detach once and for all. I've read a lot about how to start a new relationship with your spouse after a separation and while I've brought it up to her in the past, I don't know where she stands now. She was so back and forth about it before, it was hard to tell what was her true desire. My goal since then has been to just back off. Now it's time to see what, if anything, backing off did.

Keeping my head up in the uncertainty,

-Lighthouse

[JNChell]

Hi, lighthouse9. It sounds like you really have a solid plan put together for the various outcomes that may be possible. You’ve done a good job of utilizing the tools that are available here. Good on you for that!

I've been on the detaching board since I found out she was fabricating details and outright lying about going to counseling

As you said, this is the detaching board. It should also be noted that you have grasped an understanding of detachment during a separation, and starting over if a reconciliation were to happen. In most cases, I’m sure that a senior member has stats, the behavior that is in bold print above, will not change without long term, intensive therapy. Do you feel that she will decide to go if she is currently being dishonest about it?

I want to be someone that can lead the way in a relationship and want more from myself and for myself, whether with her or otherwise.

If you’re comfortable in doing so, will you elaborate on this a little more?

Second, and maybe I'll have to jump over to bettering if this becomes more than just one phone conversation for us, I want to work realllly hard not to overwhelm her, to not JADE her, and to validate the valid. I also want to be realistic about my own needs, not obsess or ruminate about things, and continue to do the things that I enjoy for myself and not purely as distractions, though distractions will be necessary.

I have to be blunt here, lighthouse9. The language here suggests that you’ve done all of this homework and preparation in hopes of a reconciliation. There is nothing wrong with that at all. If that is your motivation, again, good on you for preparing. In reading your post, I can see that you’ve taken both your’s and her care into consideration. Again, good on you for that.

I’m wondering if the real question here is if you’re planning and hoping for a reconciliation, or if you feel it’s time to move on. Sometimes, we need to weigh the odds and negotiate with our own logic in order to self preserve. What do you think will be different about her after not seeing her for a couple of months that will be an improvement? One thing we’ve learned here is that pwBPD take years to treat IF they choose to enter effective treatment. She lied to you about it. lighthouse9, I took more than one ex back way more than I should have. It’s had pretty devastating affects. Thankfully, after hitting my bottom, I chose to start a journey of stepping away from the things that hurt me, and looking inward for my answers, and those answers are coming to me quickly now.

Through this latest development, please remember to put your own self care first. Remember,  you’re approaching an emotional situation with logic. Take care in this, and keep us updated.

[Mutt]

Hi lighthouse9,

I've been waiting for my wife to return from a work training for almost two months and that we had discussed her filing for divorce upon her return.

You can’t control someone else. She might avoid divorcing because she loses an attachment, she might follow through with it, she could take a long time to get there, a lot of things could happen. You know her better than anyone else in the board. Have you thought about what you want do you want to divorce?

I don’t know why you had discussion that she should file, you’ve detachment from the marriage or the relationship, if divorce is a goal for you the dynamics change you don’t have to worry about her because you’re not responsible for her anymore I would shift my thoughts away from her feeljngs and work on detaching. I’m not suggesting to be indifferent to her just think about your needs and putting yourself first.

[lighthouse9]

Hey Mutt,

I appreciate your post. I've been putting myself first for some time now and have made some big changes in my life in order to do so.

To answer your question, I've never wanted divorce and have always made that clear. In the early days of all this, when she wasn't making much sense and kept going back and forth, I told her that she would have to file if it was something she wanted so badly and that I wouldn't fight her. I also laid out the idea of a therapeutic separation and told her that some time apart might be healthy, but it didn't have to be the ending of our relationship. She kept dysregulating in that period and then got orders for training and has been gone since. In that time, I've been doing my work for the exact reason you said - I can't control someone else's behavior.

However, doing my work hasn't meant giving up on the potential for a future with her.

JNChell - I wouldn't say that I've been planning or hoping for reconciliation, but doing the kind of work necessary to be someone that is in the right place for a relationship with anyone, but yes with some of the specific tools to be in a relationship with her or any other emotionally sensitive person. Our break up highlighted a lot for me that I could be doing differently and a lot that I needed to spend time with in order to have a better grasp on what it is I want from any relationship.

I think that brings up your question about being someone that can lead the way in a relationship and wanting more from myself and for myself.

This is a lot of the work I've been doing. I spent too much time in this relationship (and past ones, and even family ones) acquiescing to others emotional reactions to things and taking them personally. My wife isn't one who readily puts herself out there and usually keeps what is going on with her right below the surface. This meant that I spent a lot of time trying to figure her out and what she wanted, and usually just got it wrong, but would go about suggesting something or following along with something that maybe neither one of us really wanted. I'm learning, especially after conversations during our break up, how much she struggles at times to know who she is and what she wants and how easy it is for her to just go along with things. Then, the resentment builds up, and then the splitting. She's a hardcore avoider of problems and I spent a lot of time in the relationship bringing things up and almost forcing her to be ready to solve problems.

One thing I've picked up over the last few months (I started getting serious about this work in early December) is that boundaries could have done a lot for me and saved a lot of heartache and headache. And not just boundaries, boundaries that come with consequences.

So, for example, when I had a big blow up with my dad when I first got home, I told him that I would not continue a conversation with him if he continued to yell in my face and block doorways. He told me he had every right to get in my face. I then said ok, well then this conversation is over for now and I'm going to leave because as I said, I will not continue this conversation with you yelling in my face. Then I left, drove away and hung out elsewhere for an hour, came home quietly and went to bed.

I would have never done something like this in the past with my wife, or at least haven't done something like that in a long time. Now, she rarely ever raised her voice and was rarely volatile. She did get ornery when drunk and even though I said I won't talk to you about anything important when you're drunk, I never enforced that and always managed to get sucked into her nonsense that she wouldn't remember. Then I'd be left staring at the ceiling in bed wide awake while she was happily passed out, and the next morning always started with me angry and her having little idea of what happened. When her drinking increased in December, I should have either put up better boundaries then or even let her know that I'd be leaving the home for a few days if she continued her behavior. I let myself get so enmeshed with her and would follow her around the house basically begging her to address things. She either wasn't capable or wasn't willing, but it shouldn't have mattered for me - I should have done my part to draw clear lines and enforce them.

I remember a time very early in our relationship, right after we got married, when she got way too drunk and put herself in danger with a friend/ex bf who was nothing but trouble. I had searched the neighborhood trying to find her because the ex bf tipped me off that she should be home by now and that she was pretty drunk. An hour later, she showed up with puke all over her and a kindly cab driver helped me get her out. He was the second cab she was in apparently and she had no concept of what was happening. I was so upset that she got so drunk and so upset that the ex bf, who apparently cared about her so much, would let her ride home alone in a big city that drunk. By the time she got home, I had already pulled out an old mattress, placed it next to the bathroom, put a few pillows there and a blanket, and was ready to tell her that no way in heck was she coming to bed with me. I got her up the steps, left her to the bathroom to get sick, and instructed her that she couldn't come to bed with me. She tried once and I led her back to the mattress and said no, you're not bringing your mess into our clean bed and you can spend the night there.

The next morning she was so apologetic and couldn't believe I made her sleep "in the doghouse," but agreed that she did the wrong thing and agreed that the ex bf did the wrong thing to not escort her home. We didn't have another episode like this for another two years, and when that one happened, I was just as clear about my boundaries and she was just as apologetic. However, I was in less of a place to enforce the boundaries because we had since moved twice for her job and I had less of my own community. When the first episode happened, we were living in my apartment and I was still surrounded by my people.

When I look back on past relationships, she's not the only one I lost myself with and forgot how to ask for what I needed or how to put my foot down. That's normal relationship stuff. Does she have her unique challenges, absolutely. But these are mine, and so my work has been to learn how to lead the way again and to not place expectations on others to follow, and especially not to just give up my path when they don't.

I don't expect to get this deep into our conversation, if it's not necessary. I more just want to make contact and feel her out, see what if any kind of connection may be there. I'm leading the way by opening up the dialogue. I've actually been pretty happy lately, or at least more content than I've been in a while. I don't think this is because she's gone, but more because I'm back to doing things I enjoy and feel like I have a right to do them and enjoy them. She never stopped me from doing things, but I think I was scared she might have left if I got too into my own stuff. Those are my abandonment issues - and they come from, you guessed it, losing favor with people in my family when I went my own way and not the way they expected. I'm done with that. In fact, last night, I talked to my mom all about how much I enjoyed learning about how to get out of a head lock at my self defense class because hey, these classes are really fun, they make me happy, and I want to talk about it! Practicing some of this stuff on my family of origin has been really helpful and I'm actually kind of excited to see what a "more skilled" me is like in conversation with my wife. She might not be there and may not have any interest or capability in meeting me there, but such is life. As Mutt said, I can't control someone's behavior.

I'll keep you all posted how this goes - I may be signing divorce papers very soon, or may be feeling out this limbo place. Either way, I have every intention of continuing on my way and doing my thing, doing my work, and enjoying the stuff I enjoy.

[Radcliff]

lighthouse9,

I wanted to get you a couple of quick thoughts in case I can't reply further before your phone call.

On the therapy thing, I think approaching it from an equal basis is good.  You've been doing intensive work yourself.  Saying that you guys are in a tough enough spot that both of you doing work with therapists offers the best chance of getting to a good place (together or not) seems reasonable -- to me.  Doesn't mean your wife will think it's reasonable.  I wouldn't push it in this first conversation, just see where she's at.

Which leads to my second point.  Don't feel like you need to resolve everything in this conversation.  You might set that expectation up front, to relax both of you -- anticipate further conversations.  The biggest thing is to get as accurate a picture as possible about where she's at.  You might look at this as more of a reconnaissance mission.  Get in, observe, and get out without trouble.  Maybe nudge things slightly in a direction, but then retreat to take stock and assess.

WW

[lighthouse9]

Thanks Wentworth!

I like the recon mission advice. That's my hope - get in, assess, get out. I'll start to strategize good ways to get out kindly and I already have some topics that I know we can discuss like old friends. I want to do a much better job of listening this time, not just letting her talk more but really listening to some of the undertones. For example, I can tell from our brief email volleys that she's still full of energy and is trying to find ways to manage it, is still making some questionable financial choices, and is being weird with social media. I was able to ascertain this by making small talk and not by asking flat out "hey, do you feel manic and how's your sense of self?".

I can't stop her from filing if that's where she's at, and I've already said that I'll sign if she follows through. I guess this would be the equivalent to doing recon and finding out that the missiles have already been fired and are well on their way. Nothing to do then but retreat and keep yourself safe!

[formflier]

  I more just want to make contact and feel her out, see what if any kind of connection may be there. I'm leading the way by opening up the dialogue.

So... .it's natural to have mixed feelings, when you are in a relationship spot that is not of your choosing.  Am I correct in my memory that there was infidelity on her part?

Listen... .the board you are generally a part of on bpdfamily does not restrict your relationship choices, it's obviously up to you.

I'm very curious about your choice to be on detaching for a while, yet you are "leading" the way in this relationship by exploring if there is a connection there.

I'm not overly familiar with detaching... .is this something they teach on that board as a way of helping you detach?

Since you don't seem to be physically located with her... .how has her return from training affected the timeline?  I'm confused by how that got picked as a relationship marker or event that somehow matters.  Was she unable to communicate while in training?

Listen... .I'm not and I don't think others are trying to mindread you.  I will tell you that the vibe I get from your post is someone that wants to or is actively taking measures to recycle. 

That vibe seems to be a big contrast to you stated intention to "feel things out"... .which is a big contrast to the board (or my understanding of the detaching board) that you have been part of for a while.

So... .help me connect some dots.

If you thinking is all over the place... .it's likely that your strategy is all over the place... which means your "tactics" will be all over the place, when you communicate with her.

   


FF

[lighthouse9]

Hey FF,

Thanks for chiming in - as always, you give me a lot to think about!

Yes - infidelity involved.

Training timeline - the orders for training came on suddenly and basically interrupted any opportunity to work things out in the same space. I took the time to get out of town and start a temp lease at a place near my folks (you might remember the whole housing drama). It's been a really good move for me - I'm seeing old friends, trying out new things, and generally just enjoying my own space and not being constantly reminded by our dead relationship. I asked her to wait until after training to file, which realistically was all that could happen because as of a few days before leaving she hadn't even picked up paperwork or spoken to anyone about it yet. Originally she agreed to do a month of counseling before filing, but I've seen no evidence of that and had the whole incident of her lying about counseling. Basically I detached while she was at training and really didn't expect her to do any of the work she said she wanted to do while there, and honestly, a lot of that work would be really hard to do in that environment. I also didn't try to talk to her while she was there, mostly because I was afraid of what would happen if she dysregulated down there, away from good support. (Yes, I can see this is FOG in action).

Detaching vs. leading the way: Detaching from marriage as it was, leading the way to a new one. But, there has to be room for some connection for that to happen. If it's not there, then I will detach from any idea that something new can arise. We talked about this before she left and she expressed some interest, but then would go back to yelling at me for not "giving her a divorce."

I hear your concern about feeling things out vs. actively trying to recycle - I'm going to think about that and give it some good attention before we talk tonight, great catch there!

[formflier]

I'm not overly familiar with detaching... .is this something they teach on that board as a way of helping you detach?

So... .help me connect some dots.

If you thinking is all over the place... .it's likely that your strategy is all over the place... which means your "tactics" will be all over the place, when you communicate with her.

So... .let's circle back to this. 

How did you come up with this strategy?  What are you going to "present" to your wife, when you communicate to her?

FF

[lighthouse9]

My therapist was actually where the strategy originated - she's suggested that when given an opening, that I should try to make low key conversation and try to connect with her. When she got in touch after getting home from training via email, I asked if she would be up for a phone call to connect and she said yes.

My plan is to present small talk, ask how training was, connect over some shared interests (we've done this a little bit over email), and ideally get out of the conversation after that. If she brings up any small opening to talk about mental health, then I have a low key, supportive script for that, too. That script is more encouraging and supportive and less "you need to get counseling now in order to keep talking to me." My goal there is to just build some low key supportive space and assess next steps from there.

If she brings up filing and is all business, then I have a pretty good sense of where she's at and that connection is not going to happen. In which case, we'll talk about that. I'll remind her that this is not what I want but that I respect her and that I will sign, just give me a heads up on when to expect to receive documents.

If she brings up filing after we do connect (I suspect this to happen), I'll do the same as above but will likely follow up with my willingness to give this some more time and remind her that I'm
 ultimately still on her team and am in no rush for us to figure legal things out right away. Our separation has been pretty tidy and I'm content, at the moment, where I'm at in my life, all things considered. I'll let her know (if I'm still feeling this way after the convo) that I'm up to chat again in another week or so.

My therapist predicts that she's either completely done and has fully immersed herself in the revised memories of the relationship, or that she's completely ashamed and overwhelmed and is going to crash sometime soon. My strategy tonight is really just to feel out which direction she's leaning.

[formflier]

So... .if you and your therapist are working on connecting and building a relationship (which is completely fine... .please don't hear any criticism)... .

how is that congruent with coming here and working on detaching (which is completely fine... .please don't hear any criticism)... .

Can you step back for a bit... .take a look at your situation and actions... .and see if you can understand how some people would scratch their heads and shrug?

FF

[Radcliff]

lighthouse9, it sounds like you were well prepared.  How did it go?

WW

[lighthouse9]

Hey WW, Thanks for checking in!

Everything went as well as possible... .and I was correct in what I thought would likely happen. We managed to connect really well over things trivial and even some family stuff, but I kept talk about our relationship off limits during this connection. Through this time, I was able to pretty much assess how much she had moved on emotionally and had leveled out to a comfortable place for herself, aka no longer dysregulating all over the place and had basically pressed restart on her life.

I'm really glad for the articles and tools here, and the one that was really ringing in my head during that part of the conversation was about falsely believing your partner experienced the breakup the same as you.

"Unknown to you, there were likely significant periods of shame, fear, disappointment, resentment, and anger rising from below the surface during the entire relationship. What you have seen lately is not new - rather it’s a culmination of feelings that have been brewing in the relationship."

The more I've stepped back over the last few months, the more this felt true. I did leave some room for some cooling off time to maybe pull her back to center, especially if the possibility of her being bipolar was stronger than her living w/BPD. The cooling off was good for both of us - I had time to do my work and detach from the marriage as it was prior to the break up, and really assess if I did want to attempt to lead us to something new. For her, the cooling off seems like it was just enough time (especially with her being away from home for almost two months) for her to remake herself again and leave anything left for me completely behind. It might have been in that same article that I saw something about how they might be somewhere a few weeks after a relationship that would take you months to get to with your healing. This feels really true right now. I've spent what feels like a normal amount of time with the healing and am still doing it. I still have flashbacks to our relationship (mostly good) and still catch myself questioning if I should tell a story about my life because it has her in it. In other words, I'm still really conscious of things. It doesn't take up my every waking minute, but the fact that my marriage is ending isn't something that I've totally escaped.

Talking to her last night, it definitely felt like she left any sentimentality towards our marriage a long long time ago. We had a great conversation, like old friends even, but old friends that steered away from discussing times they had together. More like old friends that knew the characters in one's life and could keep up with the conversation without asking "wait who is that?" I didn't ask if she was seeing someone, because why re-traumatize myself? It doesn't matter now and it's not my business.

After she talked a bit about how she's spending her days and how she's feeling good, I just said "It's really great to hear that you feel more stable right now, you really concerned me the last time I saw you." She said "yes, I really concerned myself and when I look back on that I can see just how bad I really was, I'm sorry you had to see that." I said, "I'm not looking for an apology and you don't have to feel sorry for not being ok, but I do want you to know that it got to the point that I really questioned if I should have called in professional help for you." She just said "Thanks for being concerned, but I'm ok now." I said "great, I hope you've had a chance to talk to someone professionally, you really deserve that support to live your best life." And she said that she was talking to someone though again, it's hard to believe. But, it's not my place to check the facts on that one. She's made it pretty clear that it's not my business, so I'll let it stay there.

I then thanked her for being on top of details since she got back in town (She owes me money per our separation agreement) and said I really appreciated talking to her tonight. Since I could already tell that I'd be in for a game of cat and mouse that neither one of us wanted to really play if I tried to draw things out, I brought up the divorce. I simply said that I was content and adjusting well to being separated and was really happy to hear that it sounds like she's doing well, too. Then I said that given that, I think you know my position on this marriage, which is that I'm still open to exploring some time in the future if there's the possibility of a future for us and I'm in no rush for us to figure out the legal end of things. But, I said, I ultimately respected her and will respect whatever decision she makes. She said thank you for offering more time and you're being so mature about this, but I would like to move forward with divorce. I said ok, thank you for being honest and direct with me, so what's your plan? She's going to go to the base legal department in a few weeks (surprise, she's military- I've left that detail out) and figure out next steps. I asked her to just give me a heads up on when to expect papers so I wasn't surprised and we worked out the next installments of her spousal support. We checked in to make sure we were both happy with the logistical arrangements for support and then said goodnight. I told her I loved her and said that I have a lot of love to give, but I respect that you don't want it and wish you well.

So - how am I feeling?

The blow wasn't nearly as hard this time, and if anything I might have some relief from the waiting. I was kind of holding my breath while she was gone because I was so scared that something might happen to her, given how much distress she was in when she left. I was almost bracing to get a call from a hospital or police department. After talking to her last night, I could really see how unlikely that situation was - and how she's probably been "fine" for a really long time.

I let myself cry for a few minutes last night, just because it's still pretty sad to have a marriage end like this. But, my primary emotion was an immense sense of strength and pride for the work I've done and how much I've learned. I can't be with someone who can just exit a marriage like she did and recreate herself to avoid it. She did thank me once for being so respectful to her throughout this process and apologized for not giving me that. It was about as sincere as an apology as I'll ever get from her. Do I wish she'd say "Hey, sorry I totally atom bombed our relationship, left it to you to clean up, and overnight could go from planning our children with a doctor to having zero feelings for you."? Yeah, that'd be nice, but not going to happen. She's not well, that's clear. Will she get better? Honestly, I doubt it. She skates by pretty darn well and I don't think this will be the thing that turns her around. I know I could have "shocked her out of it" per se by being emotionally dysregulated myself and demanding all kinds of things or bringing up stuff she said or our past our whatever, but what's the point? Why play games? Why make her go somewhere emotionally that she's working hard not to go? This relationship is done for her, and I've more than demonstrated my ability to accept who she is and do my own work.

I'm a little more raw this morning and let myself sleep in, but I'm really content with my surroundings right now and have a million and one ways to keep myself busy or let go and process. I even see my new therapist again today (I timed our call well on purpose  ) so I'm looking forward to processing with her, too.

Thanks for everything folks - this has been one hell of a rollercoaster and I don't think I'm completely off of it, but at least I know that I'm on a ride now and not on what a healthy relationship life should be like. I expect to be in different places of grief and emotion in the near future, but for now, I'm ok and that feels really good. I wrote a story about it last night that maybe I'll share at some point - I had a memory flashback to a moment from my athlete days that felt similar and it was a really cool memory. Also, how cool is it to have memories and to have been a fairly consistent person your whole life, even with changing fads and interests? I've never before in my life realized that my sense of self is something I take for granted. Hold on to that one folks.

[formflier]

So... .since she intends to divorce... what is your negotiating position going to be?  It's obvious you don't want divorce.

Going to base legal to do this is interesting for a service member.  Do you intend to make the infidelity part of your divorce settlement?  Infidelity can have some impact on a service member, that civilians usually don't consider.

Do you believe she understands this?  Have you discussed this with her?

FF

[lighthouse9]

Hey FF,

I wouldn't say I don't want divorce at this point. I don't like the idea of divorce, but I can't make her be someone who wants to be in this marriage, and I think any further exposure to her to try and convince her or something is just going to hinder my healing.

I had already spoken with a lawyer in the state where she will file and the infidelity will have zero bearing on our case legally, unless I were to decide to file, in which case I'd be able to push a fault divorce through pretty quickly. If she files for "unreconciled differences," then I can expect a short lag for the court to process it after I sign and I'll get to stay on her insurance in the meantime. In other words, it makes more financial sense for me to let her file a no fault divorce.

I have zero interest in tanking her career. Yes, the infidelity could get her in a lot of trouble and get her affair partner in a lot of trouble. She definitely understands this. Bringing it up to JAG isn't going to do anything for me in a divorce process. We make similar to enough money that the state won't do much for me in terms of spousal support (according to the lawyer I talked to) and the lawyer encouraged me to negotiate with her for any support I want. I feel good about what we negotiated and it seems like she's going to follow through on it, which is another reason why I wanted to be as respectful and mature as possible in our talk.

I'm pretty much of the mind that if she's going to put her career in jeopardy, she'll do it by herself. They could still be sleeping with each other for all I know, and some key people are aware that she had an affair (and aren't going to prosecute her). In other words, if she's still up to some nonsense then someone will likely notice. They got sloppy before in hiding their tracks and if it's still happening, they're likely to get caught. For all I know, his wife is aware, too, and has made the same decision as me. Unlike him and my wife, I have no interest in meddling in other peoples' marriages.

Also - from a purely practical standpoint, this is the path of least resistance and if I don't want to keep dealing with a mess, then it makes sense to follow it. Tanking her career gives me nothing. Also - let's be real - some ranks and specialities don't always get held accountable for certain things the same way as others do. I don't see her getting much more than a slap on the wrist, and in return I would probably just be harassed by her and she'd spread lies about me being abusive or something. She'll do good work for the military if she can keep herself out of trouble, and I have no intent to stand in her way.

[formflier]

Tanking her career gives me nothing. 

I'm not suggesting at this point that you tank her career.   What you have is a huge negotiating point.  She may be interested paying you a certain amount to stay silent... .or she may invite you to do your worst.  There is only one way to find out.

My guess is she would be interested in keeping it under wraps.


And... .don't hold yourself responsible for the actions of others.  If you saw someone rob a bank... .let's say a successful doctor... .would you be "taking their career" by turning them in? 

Having been involved in kicking people out of the military for affairs, I can tell you with complete certainty there is a difference in the chain of command "thinking" someone has had an affair, and being able to prove it.

A rumor and an allegation with evidence are completely different things.

It's usually not a good idea for the chain of command to investigate rumors and hunches.

The chain of command would be in more trouble than your wife of they ignored an allegation with evidence.

FF

[lighthouse9]

Thanks for your perspective on this FF. If I can, I'd like to just kind of go away quietly at this point. She's been generous with the separation agreement and my mental health will be best off if we can move on at this point. I really enjoyed being part of the military family, but it will be nice to not be her "dependent". Being the dependent of someone that isn't dependable is just hell.

[formflier]

  If I can, I'd like to just kind of go away quietly at this point. 

Of course you can go away quietly.  That's your choice.

I would encourage you to reflect on the reasons you want to go away quietly and sort that out, especially before you get into your next serious relationship.

Most likely, it will have something to do with your thoughts on confrontation around uncomfortable subjects (obviously very broad).  Perhaps it will have something to do about "standing up for yourself".  (again very broad)

It would also likely be tied in with however you sort out letting her file for divorce, vice you filing for divorce.  Especially given that she broke her vows she made to you.  (Am I correct her marriage vows promised fidelity?  Not all vows do.)

Perhaps that leads you to understand that should you get married again... .you may choose different vows or you may have a pre-nup... .or both... .or you may choose to "be involved" with someone, yet not marry.  There are many more choices.

My "big picture" advice for you is much less about you speaking up or being quiet about a crime that has affected your life, it's about whether you will take an active role in pushing for and advocating for what you want in life versus accepting what others demand and expect you to accept.  (there is a continuum here... not a one or another)

Most "nons" come here are far too "accepting"... especially of behavior that is generally understood to be toxic to relationships.

FF

[lighthouse9]

Most "nons" come here are far too "accepting"... especially of behavior that is generally understood to be toxic to relationships.

FF

I agree FF - and I take your advice to reflect on this before the next relationship. It's actually a big part of the work I've been doing, especially since being home with my FOO. I'm not afraid of confrontation, but have a dad that is even more confrontational than I'll ever be, and who does a ton of stuff that is outright wrong and disrespectful, I have learned to just let things go. I've been practicing some of this stuff with my FOO and it is definitely helping me see things more clearly. When I worked on a list of things I wanted in a relationship with my coach, the ability to accept conflict and work towards skillfully resolving it was on my list of traits. My wife did neither and I couldn't see it until her resentment built up and toppled over. Like a lot of us with quiet borderlines in our life, I really had no idea what was below the surface for her - and I can be pretty perceptive. I think another trouble is that when I'd bring up ways to resolve the conflict, she'd take responsibility and do what I wanted her to do, but not out of a place of genuine desire to make things better but more out of a desire to avoid more conflict. That lead to more resentment, if I were to venture a guess, and ultimately she interacted with my like there were a set of rules to follow. I don't think I ever saw the genuine buy in to some of the things we resolved to do differently from her end. That's the kind of thing I think I can only start to see now, after the fact, because we really had so little conflict before now. That should have been a red flag, but as someone who grew up in CONSTANT conflict it was a nice reprieve.

[formflier]

  I'm not afraid of confrontation, but have a dad that is even more confrontational than I'll ever be


 but as someone who grew up in CONSTANT conflict it was a nice reprieve.

I likely made an error by the use of "afraid". 

I would suggest that you should learn to bemore more confrontational although it sounds like you made need to find a good example for what that looks like (not your Dad).

Perhaps another way of saying "stand up for yourself much more"

FF

[heartandwhole]

Hi lighthouse9,

I’m sorry your marriage is breaking apart. It’s hard to let go of someone we love, and the dreams and plans we made together.  

I commend you for the work you’ve been doing. I admire how maturely and compassionately you have handled your wife’s return, and her desire to go through with the divorce.

I’m glad you see this work as something that will benefit you and your future relationships. I really believe you are on the right track with that.

And I hear you about the belief that our partners experienced the relationship (or breakup) as we did — that incorrect belief became very clear to me in my relationship, and afterward as well.

You have every reason to feel proud of how far you’ve come. Thanks for sharing your journey thus far. It helps lots of us!

heartandwhole

[Radcliff]

lighthouse9,

I'm sorry to hear about your marriage, but glad that you both were able to talk about it calmly and with respect.  It sounds like you are being very deliberate and thoughtful about how you are proceeding, and are doing it with a lot of support.  I'm glad to hear that you've landed in a healthy environment that's helping you in your journey.

I'm facing a fairly steady stream of decisions on how "hard" to be on my wife regarding the consequences of her actions.  If I'm hesitant to act out of fear, obligation, or guilt, that's a red flag to me, and I'll give myself a nudge.  If I'm not yet confident that my action would be anger free, I try to slow down.  Most importantly perhaps, I look at my own needs.  If my needs are not being met, and could be better met with more aggressive action, that pushes me towards the action.  If avoiding the action is neutral, or even has benefits for me, then I hold off.  formflier is right, that many of us have a long history of going too easy on our pwBPD, shielding them from the consequences of their actions, and not looking out for ourselves.  As we shift onto a healthier path, it's important to be mindful of this.  From the way you've described your thinking, it sounds like you are.

WW

[lighthouse9]

Hey WW,

Thanks for the kind words here, and for talking about your own process. I agree with FF - standing up for myself is something I'm going to need to do in the future. It's hard to do when you still have feelings for someone. Remarkably, over the last few days, I've been able to get back into a place of not exactly anger but maybe severe disappointment and recognizing how much more I deserved from our marriage. She wasn't capable or willing. Those are facts.

I don't think I've seen the end of this, given that she still has to move forward with filing and such, but I'm doing really well for the moment where I'm at and went out with a friend last night and had a really good time - something I haven't done for a bit. She's about a year out of a very messed up situation with her ex and we had a really good talk about how much was deliberate and how much was mental illness from them. Talking to her helped me remember some of the scarier things my wife said near the end, like about how easy it was to manipulate our marriage therapist. I was really happy to hear her opening up about this kind of darkness with me, but wow was that a different shade of red I had never seen in a red flag. At that time, she was talking about these things as things she needed to work on with the right therapist, so I was hopeful. The first step is recognizing and naming it right? The trouble is, the next step is actually doing something about it and getting help.

I like what you said about recognizing the red flags of FOG. This was definitely me while she was at training, and now that she's home I can feel a weight off my shoulders. I checked in on it with myself and realized that holy crap, I was terrified that something would happen to her down there and that I spent a lot of time imagining the worst. That's fear. After that moment I described earlier, where she got drunk with the ex bf and didn't make it home on the first cab ride, I think I adopted a level of fear with her that really worked in her favor, whether she was trying to make it that way or not. She can be a real loose canon sometimes, in mostly quiet and subtle ways. She's the woman who ghosts from a party or bar and spends the rest of the night wandering around drunk getting into only she knows what. Her friends used to just laugh about it, but I imagine that many of them felt scared for her and just gave up on trying to control her behavior.

In talking with my friend last night, I realized that she didn't show me that side of herself until after we got married. She had a way of going rogue that was so unsettling and definitely made me concerned for her safety, but also put me in the place of the nagging wife who just wanted to restrict her fun and her movements. I hated it. As someone who likes to do my own fair share of wandering and wants her own independence, I really valued her independent feisty spirit. But, there's a really well defined line between that and putting yourself in danger, or putting your marriage at risk. I like to talk to strangers (clearly haha). I like to strike up conversations with people and safely explore situations that I didn't plan to get into. I like to introduce myself to people that say "hey haven't I seen you before?" whether they have or haven't and shake their hand and get to know them. 9 times out of 10, they hit me up with their life story and we end up having some really amazing connection. I love having this kind of independence of mind.

In our relationship though, I became so rigid and everything needed to be so planned out - which then became her chief complaint about me. So, I worked on being more spontaneous. But, my idea of being more spontaneous meant things like waking up on a Saturday morning and saying hey, let's go to Home Depot and buy paint and paint the living room today and forget our other plans. She was down with it. We started doing all kinds of spontaneous things like this. But, I imagine that wasn't what she meant by spontaneous. She meant escaping her reality and letting her inhibition run away. I shiver to think of the things she could have possibly been doing that I didn't know about in the times when she would have her "adventures" and run off for the day out of contact. I absolutely did not deserve that. But, when she would come home and after I would express my concern and she would apologize, I was just so relieved to have her home that I would give up on any other form of accountability. She didn't do this stuff that often, but it was often enough to remind me that she could do it and that it wasn't "out of her system" or a "one time mistake."

I adjusted my career plans and gave up my community to follow her career, as every military spouse does, and does so willingly and with eyes open. In exchange though, we expect to be treated with respect for the sacrifices we make and to be given what little stability that is possible from our spouses. We lived on base, so I got to know a lot of other families like ours and learned a lot about what I was missing from her, especially when she bailed. At one moment of clear vitriol, she told me that she wished I was like the other spouses that didn't show up to squadron events and didn't support their husbands' careers. She said "I never wanted a stepford wife" and I just burst out laughing, because I'm about as far from a stepford wife as physically possible (tattoos, short hair, masculine dress). What she meant was "I don't want you to see what I'm up to and be able to hold me accountable." So, I didn't go to the next squadron event - and according to her, that's the night she first slept with her coworker, drunk out of her mind.

I don't ever want to again be with someone who I feel like I have to keep tabs on in order to know they are making safe and responsible choices. The FOG is lifting my friends, bit by bit.

[lighthouse9]

Hey Heartandwhole,

Thank you for the encouragement - the work I've been able to do on this board has been invaluable. Just to have language for some of this stuff is so helpful. I was in a bookstore yesterday and picked up a copy of "I hate you, don't leave me" to flip through, even though I've read most of it before. Just reading some what is in there helped me to stay grounded and remember what I'm dealing with. I was flipping through some stuff on bipolar disorder, too, and it was also very helpful. She meets a lot of the criteria there as well, and I know that docs struggle to figure out which diagnosis is right or if both are present. Regardless, being here has been a good reminder that this isn't normal and it isn't healthy. She's not well, and to need more from her is like trying to get water from a dried up well. I like some of the stuff WW has said on other posts on the bettering board - about being realistic about what is possible, what is likely not possible, and what you need to just forget about. I'm starting to see how much I did that intuitively in our relationship, and how more went into the latter categories as time went on.

[Radcliff]

That's fantastic to hear that you were able to connect with a friend, and that the friend is a little farther ahead on a similar journey.  That in-person support is a valuable complement to what we get here.

So what does the next three months look like for you?  What's on your agenda?

WW

[lighthouse9]

Hey WW,

Next three months? Haven't thought too much about it, but I imagine just continuing to settle in here and build community/make friends. I want to get out and go camping quite a bit and enjoy the changing weather. I dropped one of the classes I'm teaching so I should have a bit more time for leisure, or knowing me, taking on a new project. Work is going well and I'm enjoying it, so I can't complain there at all.

I'm glad I moved, I don't expect things with my wife to go without surprises over the next few months, but the distance helps. She made contact again today, for logistical reasons, but it felt like she was trying to do more than make contact for logistical reasons. I played it off and only responded to the logistics. It really wasn't something she had to be in contact about, but I've fully accepted that she's got her own sense of reasoning and rationale that I can't predict or expect to understand. It felt like a "testing the water" kind of text, so I kept the water lukewarm and uninteresting. I don't expect to go total grey rock just yet, but it could come down to it at some point. The question of whether or not she is aware of what she's doing is a bit haunting, and I know it's something we all deal with. Is she sick, manipulative, or a little bit of both? How much control does she have or could she have? As the FOG continues to lift, I'm seeing ways to keep myself out of harms way that I didn't before. When it seemed like she was testing the water, I didn't react. I didn't try to pull her in and didn't try to push her away. I responded appropriately to the content of the message. If she's like anyone else's ex or partner on here, I know it's highly likely that I could see more of this. Thankfully, I'm in enough of a routine here that it barely threw me off and I went about my business.

[lighthouse9]

Oh WW - I forgot to mention - there will definitely be more music in my next three months. I've been playing the guitar more regularly and started riffing some lyrics on some chords today:

What do I have to know?
What do I have to say?
What do I have to remember for the both of us,
To keep you ok?

Did you not want me to know?
Did you not want me to stay?
Did you want me to keep quiet for the both of us,
Just shutup and go away?

I felt my "shift" from enabling/protecting to "waking up" per se while just closing my eyes and singing whatever came out to what I was playing. I haven't done this in a long time and it felt really good.

I know we have some other musicians in here who lost their music in their relationships as well. Anyone else feel the music start to come back with some distance?

[Radcliff]

I'm glad you're finding (or rediscovering) a way to process what's happened through the use of music!

For some reason I had it in my head that you'd made a big enough move that you were far away from your job.  That's great that you have landed in a new place to live that's a good fit, yet still have the familiarity of your existing job.

Before your phone call with her, it sounded like you were ready to consider reconciliation if she were open to it.  Where is your "push vs. pull" dial set with her now?  Are you neutral?  Open to drawing closer if she is consistent?  Gently pushing away towards a definite divorce?

WW

[lighthouse9]

Hey WW,

Thanks for the great questions! Yes - I did move far enough away, but I'm working remotely and the transition has been good enough, all things considered. I very much miss going into the office and miss the in person company of my coworkers, but we're managing well enough with video chats and I've found a good coffee shop locally to go to in order to be around humans.

My push/pull dial... .hmmm... .

I read this last night and thought "I need to sleep on it." I think I would be open to drawing closer, but you had the key word there - she would have to be consistent. I really don't think, without professional help, she's going to figure out what that means. The barriers to her getting help are pretty high, or at least the kind of help where she could be brutally honest. So, I guess I'm being very realistic there and continuing with the detaching process.

I've been a bit angry and disappointed the last few days, after talking to her like we were old friends and not two people that are still married. My therapist kind of put it well - yes, this is the best she can do right now, and it takes a lot of work for her to maintain that kind of detachment. I imagine there is no piece of her that really thinks facing her stuff is an option, and she knows that being in contact with me means facing her stuff. So, I've said it a million times - I can accept that yes, she's probably doing the best she can, but it's not enough for me.

I'm not sure if this means I'm neutral or gently pushing towards divorce, but I can feel myself being more ok with the idea. That isn't because I want a divorce or I think that this is unsalvageable, but because I really recognized that I'm doing everything I can and that it takes two to make something work. I think there's a million and one things I could do to recycle this relationship and bring her closer, but it wouldn't be a healthy recycle or a healthy closer. I don't want that at all.

I guess my state would more be "I'm ok without her," at least for right now, whether that is permanent or temporary. I've been trying to do way less crystal ball looking into the future kind of stuff and trying to mindfully just be where I'm at and do what I do, unless of course dreaming up new projects or professional opportunities. No matter what happens, it's been a really good thing to get to this place. I want to be realistic about the grief process and fully understand that my mindstate might change, so I'm going to enjoy the fruits of this much detachment for now. I think I'm also finally letting myself be let down for stuff in the past, when things were "good", and not just from the breakup/crisis point.

I'm curious about you WW - did you get to this point when things got really bad? I know you're in a bit of a holding pattern. When did you first know that you're going to be ok?

[once removed]

I know we have some other musicians in here who lost their music in their relationships as well. Anyone else feel the music start to come back with some distance?

big time. it started bubbling up during the grief but took some time to crystalize, ya know. i had a lot of feelings of injustice in latter stages, really wanted to say my piece, and writing has always helped me do that in a way i cant otherwise. by the time i got it out of my system, it was one in a series of turning points.

by the sound of it, youre certainly processing. is it helping perspective, resolution, confidence?