She's made contact, time to discuss next steps

[lighthouse9]

Hey Once Removed,

I've had similar experiences to you with music post break ups. I haven't always written songs for people in the end, though I have one in particular that is insightful from a pretty bad breakup with a person who was either BPD or a true psychopath (others' assessments, not my own until it ended). My savior mentality was written all over the lyrics (amazing what you'll say out loud when being creative) and I could see how much I let her drag me down into her own darkness to the point that I thought I was just as dark as her.

Definitely processing over here, though not stewing in it all day which is nice. I'd say all three re: perspective, resolution, confidence.

I've been working on the confidence for a long time and I can feel it throughout most of the day/week now. There have been a lot less low points for me in terms of confidence. Doesn't mean I don't miss her, but I'm more confident in myself and that can be separate from missing her.

Resolution? Getting there. I've made some strong resolutions up until this point and have held to them, but I haven't made the "final" resolution yet in terms of moving on completely. Getting to that point might look like filing for divorce myself.

Perspective? Absolutely. I've always been good by myself and I'm not usually a needy person. The needy person I became with her and right after the breakup are pretty indicative of how bad it got. We were usually good, not dramatically over the top in love but not at all bad. I felt like we were moving in the right direction and things felt stable a lot of the time. From the outside, we mostly looked like a stable, content couple. I had no idea what was right under the surface for her, but I can see it now. It's also pretty interesting that things got really bad as soon as I was getting to a place of more stability in my life (finishing my PhD, getting a great job, figuring out some health stuff). I know this is a big BPD trope - they abandon you as soon as you seem stable enough to abandon them. I spent some time between this last summer and early fall trying to make up for past wrongs. Some of them were things that needed worked on, but most of them were control mechanisms and a real setting the stage for devaluation. She admitted to some of this right after the split and had some really thoughtful moments, which is what initially gave me some hope for reconciliation. The awareness is there, but the willingness to keep with that awareness and do something about it isn't always there.

[Radcliff]

I'm curious about you WW - did you get to this point when things got really bad? I know you're in a bit of a holding pattern. When did you first know that you're going to be ok?

Well, almost everything you said in Reply 28, right up there before your reply to OR -- it all resonates with me and describes pretty well where I'm at.  Observing where she is.  Defining what's good enough for me.  Giving it time.  So, while it is a "holding pattern," a lot of processing is happening, and she's giving me new observations every week.  I am where I need to be right now.

W.r.t. your question, no I don't think I got to the point you are describing when things were really bad.  "Really bad" to me is working feverishly to establish basic physical, emotional, and financial safety.  That's where I was around the time of the RO being served, and a couple of times since, when she has had a setback and has come back with controlling actions that gave me flashbacks.  The contemplative "holding pattern" that you and I are describing takes some basic safety as well as personal commitment to not try to control the things we cannot control, to not pressure ourselves for final answers right away, etc.  The "holding pattern" is actually quite a bit of work, but it's good work.  That's my take, at least!

WW

[lighthouse9]

Very insightful WW - and I agree, my "really bad" was probably when I was still in the house, not knowing if she already gave notice to vacate, and was starting to drain the bank account while still lying to me about the affair and gaslighting the crap out of me. Really bad was falling to my knees in the bathroom to cry and her crashing through the door to tell me to stop faking it or baiting her to help me.

Things are definitely not really bad anymore, due to the emotional and physical safety I've been able to create - and thanks for reminding me of that, because it's a good reminder of how far I've come.

The holding pattern definitely is quite a bit of work. I feel like sometimes I'm up here processing and reflecting while waiting for the runway to clear - and being fully aware that I might just have to ditch this runway and land somewhere else. At least it no longer feels like I'll be making an emergency landing!

I agree with something you said, and it's actually what I've been praying for a lot lately: "I'm where I need to be right now." I often pray for the ability to know this and accept it. It makes gratitude a lot easier, and gratitude makes everything feel better.

[Harley Quinn]

How are you doing lighthouse9?  (Look under my avatar btw)  I try to remember this when things are overwhelming and scary.  Although times can be hard and pain can be felt, it all leads us where we need to go.  Hoping you're doing well and kicking punching and throwing as much as feels good.

Love and light x

[lighthouse9]

Hey HQ! Love the quote - it's really become a new mantra for me and is producing a different outlook.

I'm actually doing pretty well right now. I miss her, but I'm also finding myself grateful at times that she's not here. For example, I miss her over my morning coffee on weekend mornings, where we would just talk about anything and everything before getting our day started. I found myself this morning wanting to text her a bunch of crazy ideas I had while drinking my coffee, but then remembered that even if she did contact back (she probably would), doesn't mean that she's ready to face her challenges and reconcile something.

It's Cinco de Mayo, which is total BS in the way that it's celebrated in the US - aka just an excuse to get wasted and appropriate someone else's culture. I can just hear the fight we'd be having this weekend when her hard drinking friends would likely invite us out with them. She'd promise to only have 2 drinks (a limit she would volunteer to me, not that I'd ask for), then on the 3rd would come up with a reasonable excuse for why she was having it, and then the night would be downhill from there. She'd start ignoring me in front of her friends, would drink more, then I'd be driving home a drunk woman who was picking fights with me. The next morning would be all about how I'm no fun and this is why she doesn't take me out around her friends.

It's stuff like this that balances out the missing her. I don't miss fighting with her about her drinking. I don't miss disengaging and NOT fighting with her about her drinking, because the fighting became pointless. I don't miss coming up with reasonable compromises to going out and drinking, like throwing a neighborhood block party at our house. Don't get me wrong, I loved throwing these parties, even if they were a lot of work. But they typically ended in her still drinking too much and then getting on me about something trivial at the end of the night and then using it as evidence that I'm just mean and want to fight with her. The last time this happened, she yelled at me for abandoning her with the neighborhood guy who doesn't know when it's time to go home or to stop telling stories that no one wants to hear. I was cleaning up the party and making sure we didn't have food left out that could spoil, and she was sitting with two others listening to him go on and on. When she drunkenly tried to help me out with cleaning (making things worse) and I got frustrated with her, she then snapped at me for leaving her with him to go clean up. Our neighbors raved about how fun the party was for weeks, and I just kept thinking about her snapping at me over something completely unreasonable, just so she could then say "see, that compromise didn't work either."

I'm starting to see how many no win situations there were in our relationship, even when I tried not to compete.

In fact, speaking of drinking - the one time I did get drunk with her, because things got so bad with us that I actually resorted to alcohol to numb myself (I never do this), she got mad at me for pretending to be fun and for gaslighting her that I like to drink. This was after being all over me in a bar and telling me how much she loved me and wanted me in her life forever. I was drunk because she came home late the night before and I suspected her to be out with someone else. When we went out that night, I drank too much too fast and we had a good time, until she just flipped a switch and then started yelling at me for pretending to like to party. I told her that I wasn't pretending anything - I just needed to forget for a few hours and needed to let go, and how dare she be mad at me for coping with alcohol when it's all she does. Next thing I knew, she was telling me (in the bar) that she wanted to leave me - then of course took all that back ten minutes later and told me it wasn't true the next day.

I'm not a big drinker at all, but in this relationship alcohol became something I was afraid to have too much of and I was scared to let myself get the least bit out of control or uninhibited around her. She used to talk about how much her and her ex would have raging fights when drunk, and I learned early on that she liked to pick fights when drinking - so I pretty much stopped drinking myself, or at least drinking to a point that I couldn't exercise self-control to not bite when she'd start a fight.

I'll be honest HQ, in the past week, I've considered that I might file for divorce myself if she doesn't make moves soon. It's not like she's taking her time because she's trying to figure out if she wants to be with me or not. I'm starting to lose my patience for someone who can't even give our marriage the time of day necessary to legally end it. I know she's sick. Whether it's BPD or bipolar or something else, I know that this isn't easy for her. But I also know that she has choices and resources and people that would support her. As I've said before - she's doing the best she can, but it's just not enough right now.

Also... .this is the part where they come back, right? Just when you're ready to detach and make a big move to end things yourself? The irony would not be unexpected. I'm not saying this because I want it to happen, but I think I've hit the point where I'm almost finding humor in the situation and I've thought to myself "she's totally going to show up right when you're ready to be done."

[Radcliff]

I'll be honest HQ, in the past week, I've considered that I might file for divorce myself if she doesn't make moves soon. It's not like she's taking her time because she's trying to figure out if she wants to be with me or not. I'm starting to lose my patience for someone who can't even give our marriage the time of day necessary to legally end it. I know she's sick. Whether it's BPD or bipolar or something else, I know that this isn't easy for her. But I also know that she has choices and resources and people that would support her. As I've said before - she's doing the best she can, but it's just not enough right now.

My wife is the one who made constant divorce threats.  I was always trying to save us, and never threatened divorce.  One day I realized she was trying to drive me away with bad behavior so that I would be the one to take action and she wouldn't have to take responsibility.  Yet I hung on and kept trying to fix things -- I was determined not to file, and to make her file if she was the one that wanted to end the relationship.  My point is, despite being astonishingly convincing time and time again that she wanted to end the marriage, she never did anything about it.  Your mileage may vary.  But it is possible that if there is to be a divorce, you will have to start it.

What is your timeline?  If you were to take the initiative and file, how long do you think you'd wait before you felt it was time for you to file?

Also... .this is the part where they come back, right? Just when you're ready to detach and make a big move to end things yourself? The irony would not be unexpected. I'm not saying this because I want it to happen, but I think I've hit the point where I'm almost finding humor in the situation and I've thought to myself "she's totally going to show up right when you're ready to be done."

There's not a unified "they."  Every situation is unique.  Focus on her and you.  Mostly you!  If she did make overtures to reconcile now, what would you do?  If you file and she makes overtures then, how would you respond?

WW

[lighthouse9]

Hey WW,

Thanks for the reminder about the unified "they." I've been pretty good about resisting these kinds of generalizations, though in my place of anger I can hear myself making them more. I'll come back to your question about reconciling in a second... .

I've seen so many stories like yours on here, about a spouse making constant divorce threats and then never doing anything about it, even after moving out or finding a new partner. Those stories are what gave me the resolve to say "you're going to file, because I didn't want this." I've been where you said - trying to make her take responsibility here.

I've been of two minds on the whole "she needs to take responsibility" thing:

1. I didn't want this, she created this mess by moving out on short notice, having an affair, and basically imploding everything we built together in a very short amount of time. She has to clean it up by following through with the legal paperwork, because I've done enough damage control and clean up and really just want to hang up my work gloves and broom for a bit.

2. I love her and I know that the level of destruction she caused in imploding our marriage is going to be one of those things that hangs over her head and digs itself deep into her psyche for a long time. I don't want that for her. We didn't work out and she decided it was done. I can respect her autonomy and respect her choice. Not budging on filing myself is almost a gift to her. Avoidance is her go to mechanism, and anytime I encouraged her to not avoid something and just "rip the bandaid off" I could see her gain some strength and peace of mind. Sure, she messed up big time here, but if this is what she really wants then my gift to her is handing her the responsibility to end it legally. She's a big girl, she can do big girl things (she does every day in her job) even when they're really uncomfortable. Gotta start somewhere, right?

I prayed on this last night, because my anger hasn't been sitting well with me. That in itself is something to reflect on - why am I uncomfortable with anger? (All kinds of FOO stuff locked up in there haha!) My anger has made me just want to end things, despite earlier convictions that I'd be patient with her, whether for the sake of reconciliation or for the sake of giving her time to learn how to take responsibility and end things properly. I've found myself wanting to call her and scream "just put me out of my misery already or I'll do it myself"! Real mature, right? What happened to my calm and my patience? What happened to my compassion? She said she'd go in this week to figure things out, why am I so upset?

I think I'm upset because I have zero control over her right now (big scary revelation time, right?). I'm finally processing some of the anger and disappointment from our relationship and it is too late to sit down with her to process together. It's also clear that even when we did do some of this processing, she wasn't capable or ready or willing or whatever. Her sense of self shifts so often that trying to hold her accountable was just trying to catch a ghost. Our vows didn't mean the same thing to her as they did to me. Marriage doesn't mean to her what it means to me, even though we had all the same values when we got married. This has all changed, and not in a subtle "I'm growing and maturing" kind of change. I feel duped.

Filing for divorce myself would be a way to control the situation. It would be a way to protect myself against your final questions here: what would I do if she made overtures to reconcile now?

If I rode my anger straight to the courthouse and submitted paperwork, I could put myself out of my own misery, per se. I could put my foot down and say "enough" and not look back.

But would I really not look back? Would my misery really be over? These are some of the questions I'm sitting with right now. Would I be learning anything, if I ultimately went back on my need to control things and handled the situation myself, like I always do?

Also - one other thing I'm sitting with is what comes after anger for me? I'm uncomfortable with this emotion, as much as it's helping me to see the situation differently and giving me space to find my freedom. But it is not indifference. It is not true freedom.

I've even contemplated letting her see my anger (in a healthy way). Any time I'd get angry, she'd perk up and say something about how it's nice to see how much I care and how no one ever holds her accountable, and it's a gift to her when I do it.

If she made overtures to reconcile, I have no idea what I would do. I think I'm going to leave my uncertainty alone for a second and figure out some of this discomfort with anger stuff. Like you said, focus on me. Focus on why I either have to let it out in a gym or rationalize it away.




Sidenote: On the FOO stuff - I was really proud of myself last night. I've been really busy with final grades for one of my classes and I've been migrating from spot to spot with my laptop to keep myself motivated with this final grading sprint. I went over to my parents' house last night to do some grading and was having a reasonably chill moment with my mom, and then my dad walked in yelling and screaming about something really trivial that my mom didn't do right. Even when she said "ok, I'm sorry I misunderstood you, let's just move on because this isn't really worth fighting about" he kept escalating the situation. I picked up my bag and said "hey guys, I have a ton of work to do, I'm going to go to the coffeeshop and be back in an hour or two." He was confused why I was leaving when I just got there, but I just said "I'll be back, don't worry!" and left. I could feel my anger riding up inside me while he was unraveling and remembered that I had the choice to leave and not watch it go down. It's my mom's choice to let him verbally abuse him and she doesn't want my help. It's taken a long time to learn this - and even longer to learn to act on it, by doing what I did last night: walking away.

[Harley Quinn]

I can completely follow your line of thinking around filing or not and I'm sure I'd be viewing it in entirely the same way as you are.  Wentworth has asked the things that I was wondering, so I won't ask anything further, as you're already looking at and considering your options and the motivation behind either choice, which is good. 

I do want to add though that your personal boundary with your parents was fantastic to read about and I hope that you felt lighter and a little empowered by taking that course of action.  It sounds like it was a big step for you and one you ought to be proud of.
 You rocked lighthouse!

Love and light x

[lighthouse9]

Thanks HQ

It's complicated, right?

I wrote out an email to her yesterday that I stuck in my drafts folder and am still sitting on whether or not I'm going to send it. Yesterday, it felt urgent - so I walked away to gain some perspective. It's not a plea for reconciliation, nor is it a leave me the heck alone letter. It's more of a loving version of "now is the time to either turn your words into actions or be honest about why you can't do that." She's had four months. Our anniversary is in a few weeks and I'm afraid that if she doesn't make moves soon then it's going to be another thing that paralyzes her. More than likely, I'll be back in town around that time for work and I've decided that I'm going to pick up the paperwork to file myself if she hasn't made moves by then.

Thanks for the kind words about my boundary with my folks! I had dinner over there yesterday and it was great. It's encouraging to see in practice how boundaries can help you have better relationships with people. I have some other FOO stuff going on (don't we all) that is troubling, but it's also a good distraction from my own stuff. My sister and her husband have been in a really difficult place for years and the kids have really struggled to understand and feel supported. I was out with my nephews Friday night (15 & 12) and they opened up about some really concerning stuff. Their dad has some serious mental health stuff going on and mom hasn't been the best about protecting them from it (I don't blame her, that's hard). They had a lot of questions and given that he's behaving in ways similar to my wife, and they love my wife, I was able to kind of humanize mental illness a bit and model to them that we can humanize stuff and still protect ourselves. AKA this is why I moved back home, to protect myself, but I can still love her while being not ok with how she's treated me. No one is really giving them permission to be angry anymore since dad has started counseling, so it was really great to be able to say to them "feel whatever you want to feel and don't ever think you need to justify it." Again, it's another piece of the puzzle that says "I'm exactly where I need to be right now."

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the update!  I'm glad you were able to be there for your nephews!  Keep us posted!

WW

[lighthouse9]

Thanks WW!

We're talking again tonight - I sent my email and I think it pushed her along a little bit, which is good (in my opinion). I'll keep you all posted.

In other news, I noticed the cute barista smiling at me yesterday and I let myself smile back. I found myself entertaining what it might be like to learn more about her. I'm in absolutely no rush to start dating, but it was nice to look up from all of this for a second and remember how to smile at someone.

I went back to my self-defense class last night and had an amazing class and met some new people who seemed really great. The instructor just started a Facebook group for everyone so that we can start hanging out outside of class. In other words, I might be making new friends, which is really exciting. I've woken up early the last two days and have managed to have some early morning "me" time like I used to before everything went to crap. Yesterday, I listened to an audiobook on Fascism while riding my exercise bike and drinking my coffee and today I re-subscribed to my meditation app and got in a good meditation session before starting work.

And - I "ate the frog" at work - aka the task that's been haunting me that I don't want to do, I finally did it. I'm already feeling lighter haha!

I'm writing all of this down because I know that tonight's call is probably going to destabilize me a little bit, maybe even for a few days, but I've been so good at laying the groundwork for good habits and I know I'll find my balance again if I am destabilized from the call.

I'm exactly where I need to be, right now.

[lighthouse9]

oh and if there is any chance that Turkish is lurking in here at all - my first Spydie came in the mail yesterday She's a cute little non-tactical looking dragonfly. Action nowhere as sharp as my mini-grip, but she fits better in some of the smaller pockets that come with summer clothing.

[Shawnlam]

Good luck with that call lighthouse , hang tight and don’t over think it.It certainly can’t be easy speaking to her again, I know I’d dread that monement if it came my way ... .but you seem much better equipped than someone like me to deal with that.

[lighthouse9]

Thanks Shawn, I really appreciate your support. We're all in a learning process, right? By the way - glad to hear you're back on your bike and in the gym.

[Harley Quinn]

lighthouse9 it was so wonderful to hear about your chat with your nephews.  You certainly are right where you need to be.  They are lucky to have you as an aunt.  It's interesting how our own suffering and struggles in life can open up doors to touch so many others.  Another gift of BPD. 

Glad that you're in the process of making new friends and remembering how to smile.  I distinctly remember feeling just amazing when I had my first really good laugh and having to announce to everyone I could that I'd finally remembered how to do this.  Onward and upwards from there. 

Your email sounds like a smart move and I'm hoping that the conversation is/was easier on you than you imagine.  Do let us know how things turn out.

Love and light x

[lighthouse9]

Thanks HQ! Those good laughs are amazing - I've had a few and look forward to many more. For now, I have some stages of detachment to complete, though I will welcome the laughs as they come!

Tonight was hard, but good. I let loose a bit finally and stopped hiding my anger, disappointment, and ultimately my concern. I even admitted that I was afraid to show her those things because I was afraid she'd punish herself and I didn't want to be behind her self harm. She reassured me that she already had someone in place to talk to after our call, so that she would be ok. I hope it's enough, because I wish her no harm.

There's still nothing to be had by talking to her about things. She has no answers. She has no explanations besides "I don't want to be married." She claims to be seeking help but won't talk about it. She falls apart when I bring up her behavior from what I can only suspect was a pretty bad manic episode. She just kept saying I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry over and over and over and over and still wants to tell me that I'm better off without her.

I brought up again that for someone who claims to want people in her life that hold her accountable and hold her to high standards and look after her, she has no desire to face the person who has continually done that and yet has never abandoned her. I told her that what she did to me, the way she abandoned me, the way she just completely cut me out, was not just concerning but was cruel. I told her that I hoped she never has to feel the way I did when she up and left with so little to say for why.

Basically, I just kind of let it all out tonight. It was time. She kept saying "I know you're not trying to be mean right now" and I just responded "I'm dictating what happened." She can't or won't face it, and when she does, she falls apart. She admits to not being well but "working on it" and I just cried that I would have done this with her, I would have seen her through it, I would have stayed by her side, but she just cut me out. From the start, I told her my every weakness, my every fear, everything I was working on or wanted to change about myself or didn't understand. I told her that she knew all those things and she just used them against me. The second she had something of her own, she couldn't turn towards me. She just had to abandon me. She said she didn't have the self awareness to know what was going on. I said she didn't have the trust to value her wife as someone who could see it and still loved her. I also said she seemed to have more self awareness now but still had no desire to turn towards me.

She claimed that she hadn't made moves to file yet because she didn't want to "go behind my back." I said the same courtesy would have been nice when she was sleeping around. She denies avoiding filing and claims it was just for my benefit that she hadn't talked to anyone about it yet. Who knows what is true. She's making moves now and is starting the paperwork. I look forward to being spiritually free again.

I hate how hard it was to get off the phone, how easy it was to just believe everything she was saying, and then how easily I could doubt so much of it and "check the facts" after the call. I hate that I can hear her reluctance to all of this and can almost hear all the things she wish she could say but never will. I've tried to break her wall down. I've tried to sit outside it patiently and wait for her to come out. I've tried to coax her out kindly. I've tried to go around it. I don't think she even knows there is a wall there and that she's living behind it.

I told her that ultimately, above all else, I valued honesty. That there was nothing she could have come to me with that I wouldn't have accepted. That there was no compassion I wouldn't have shown her had she turned towards me. I told her that I can't be with someone who uses my honesty against me and can't bring me their own.

I'm the kind of wife that would sit with you inside a cardboard box and tell you how beautiful your spaceship is, if that's what you needed. I'm the kind of wife that would ask you if I could take it for a spin and marvel with you at all the places we could fly to inside your cardboard box. I might ask you afterwards if you're ok and give you room to tell me that you weren't. But I wouldn't shame you. I never shamed her.

This is who I was when our marriage was falling apart, when she was sneaking out, telling lies, and crawling into our bed, into my arms, hollow inside. Every night I held her tighter and begged God to stay close to her and not abandon her. When she abandoned me, I prayed to love an unconditional love and prayed that she would one day accept love, from someone, but hopefully from herself. I never scorned her. I never called her names. I always believed in her dignity while accepting that her "best" was nowhere near what was necessary to maintain a relationship. She told me tonight that she was doing her best and believed I was doing mine. It almost made me wonder if she's reading what I'm writing here, which is entirely possible, since I say that so often. Or maybe she just knows me and knows that I believe she's doing her best.

I will be that wife for someone else one day, and hopefully that person can be that wife for me. For now though, as always, I'm ok by myself. I have a lot of love to give. I will give it to my family, to myself, and to those who cross my path. I will give it here, to my students, to my coworkers, and to my friends.

I feel some relief in knowing that she's moving forward with the paperwork. I feel strong right now. "I thank whatever Gods may be for my unconquerable soul." I told her again that she didn't break me and couldn't break me and that she didn't scare me. I told her that she's just one more challenge for me to overcome, and that I've already come so far. I believe these words. I know these things to be true about me. I will claim my resilience and I will integrate what has happened and I will learn.

I'm exactly where I need to be right now.

(And tomorrow, if I'm not here, if I feel different, that's ok, too.)

[Radcliff]

lighthouse9, that sounds like a heavy call.  I hope you have some laughter and exercise and all those good things to follow it and recover.  It really struck me when you said that your wife would not turn towards you.  I had the exact same feeling.  When things got tough, she would turn on me, not towards me.  I never understood why, since I was ready to support her.  Another thing we share is a desire to have our partner understand where we are coming from.  Heck, I think everyone has this desire.  I think that if she just could understand where I'm coming from, we could stay together, or we could part ways peacefully, etc.  But despite me exhausting myself in pursuit of her understanding, it never seems to happen.  It sounds like you tried pretty hard at it on your call.  You're not alone in your desire for rational closure and understanding, and not alone in having a difficult time getting it.  You may need to let go of that reasonable desire.

WW

[lighthouse9]

Hey WW,

Heavy, but necessary. I'm definitely going to make room for self-care today - it's absolutely beautiful out.

It really struck me when you said that your wife would not turn towards you.  I had the exact same feeling.  When things got tough, she would turn on me, not towards me.  I never understood why, since I was ready to support her.

This is BPD, right? It's really helped me to understand, or at least attempt to understand, what she's going through. If I can't rationalize the situation as a whole, I can at least attempt to have her behavior make some kind of sense. If I had seen this earlier on in our relationship, there may have been things I could have done to help her feel safer turning towards me. I apologized for some of those things last night. But, and I've said this before, I think if I had more awareness about this sooner she might have sabotaged it sooner. As much as she claims to be very easy going, she is someone who ultimately has to have a lot of control. The concept of intimacy or turning towards someone doesn't quite register for her, or when it does, I think it makes her feel really unsafe.

There's the ultimate incompatibility right? The thing I want (intimacy, her turning towards me) makes her feel unsafe. I'm not going to stop wanting that kind of intimacy from a partner. She has made it clear that she doesn't want to turn towards me. So now, we turn away.

I've thought a bit about what safety looks like to her by thinking about where she ran to or what she did when she felt troubled. Safety looks like forgetting, through drinking. Safety looks like detaching, by running off for the day and turning her phone off, while getting in potentially dangerous (by anyone else's standards) situations. Safety looks like her ex boyfriend, who is willing to do all these things with her (and plenty of drugs, before her military days), just to share a moment with her. Safety is her coworker/friend, who has very few morals and lives his life like there are no consequences and is too old to behave in some of the ways that he does. Safety is changing her name and her persona depending on who she's with (I get it, I've done the name thing) and making sure those worlds don't cross over. Safety is working out beyond exhaustion so there is nothing left to feel.

Basically, safety is finding ways not to feel - or to feel something extreme, like the rush of an affair, dangerous situation, or psychedelic trip. This is why people with BPD self harm.

There is no letting go from her in the safety of my arms or the safety of our marriage. There is only lies and half truths about what's wrong, which kept me on my toes, running around trying to fix things. It was exhausting.

Another thing we share is a desire to have our partner understand where we are coming from.  Heck, I think everyone has this desire.  I think that if she just could understand where I'm coming from, we could stay together, or we could part ways peacefully, etc.  But despite me exhausting myself in pursuit of her understanding, it never seems to happen.  It sounds like you tried pretty hard at it on your call.  You're not alone in your desire for rational closure and understanding, and not alone in having a difficult time getting it.  You may need to let go of that reasonable desire.

I agree WW - and had pretty much given up on this. Last night was likely more for me than it was to expect any sort of closure from her. Sometimes I have to see it up close again, you know? See what isn't there and what won't budge, you know? See for myself that time hasn't changed anything.

I think I'm lucky to have the ex boyfriend as a reminder here. If it's not clear from previous posts, I despise the guy. He's everything I'm not, and I'm very glad for that. If we weren't linked through the same person, I'd probably tolerate him and move on or maybe even appreciate him if I had to work with him or something. But there's something about the way she always swore him off as dopey and immature, and then would let him back in as a friend every now and then, or bring up ways at the most backstabbing times that her and him shared something we didn't/couldn't. I always asked for boundaries around him, and she always crossed them. It became clear at the end that he wasn't the problem, she was. I know we aren't supposed to generalize people w/BPD as evil, but she deployed him so effortlessly and perfectly at times in our relationship that were just hair raising evil.

Here's the deal though - let's see this from his perspective. She stays in other relationships, even gets married to me, but keeps him at arms length enough that she can grab him and pull him back in for attention when she needs it/wants it. And he comes running every time. This has gone on for almost a decade, and I don't see it stopping. Why? Because I don't think he'll ever see the dynamic and has it in his head that he's something special and that they share something that no one else understands. I've been with women like this, who can make you believe that you're the one that got away or that in another time and place things might have worked. Hell she even used those lines on me when we were breaking up, as if she was setting the stage for some fantasy where she could check in on me in the future for attention.

It's not going to happen. I see what she does to him and see how he comes running every time and see how he's really never grown up, and she's a big part of that. I see how their common friends have all cut him out and how he's got a victim complex as big as she does. As long as they are both victims, they can continue to rescue each other and continue to play out their drama triangle with whatever faux persecutor they imagine.

So, as weird as it is, I'm grateful for this chump - for giving me a model of what not to be with her. I've got an ex who tried to make me that person. I kept letting her back in, and one day she assaulted me after sex. It was like I was everything she wanted and needed and everything her new boyfriend wasn't, so she came to me illicitly for another "hit." I of course obliged, and then instead of going away peacefully she had to raise the stakes and do something unthinkable. Then she just stared at me and laughed. After time (and therapy, of course), it became clear that she didn't want me - she wanted to know she could control someone. She didn't want my love - she wanted someone to destroy who would keep running back. My STBX wife doesn't seem as evil as this woman, but I have no desire to test that hypothesis.

Anyways, maybe I'm rambling a bit, but I'm grateful for this forum and for the ways that we can share our experiences and feel a little bit less alone in some of the awful/weird/bizarre/evil/unthinkable things we've been through, in the name of love.

[Radcliff]

lighthouse9, you're doing some good work.  Yes, there are built-in problems in a BPD relationship.  Our pwBPD have ineffective strategies for achieving what they want, and may not even know it when they see it (your discussion of safety made me think of this).  It is tremendously sad.  I want my wife to be happy.

I'm reading some resentment and contempt in your voice (for your ex, for her ex bf).  For where you are, that's natural.  You are where you need to be   Long term, you'll want to try to let that go.  They have given you wisdom to make life better.  Your ability to learn from this makes you the lucky one.

We spend a lot of time thinking about how our parents screwed us up (well, OK, I spend some time on that  ).  But looking at your wife and her exbf, who seem more likely to continue their patterns, and you more likely to learn from them, what do you think it is about your background that made you resilient?  What strengths and protective factors were there for you?

WW

[lighthouse9]

Hey WW,

Thanks for calling out the resentment and contempt - I've resisted it, but I think in small doses it's not the worst things. I don't tend to hold on to these things, but I will definitely heed your warning to be careful.

Excellent question about resilience, and it's something I've also thought about a fair bit.

From a personal side, I had a major injury when I was 19 that ended my athletic career and required me to spend years learning how to function again in some of the most basic ways. That injury came with a journey into mental illness and required me to seek out help and learn how to ask for support. I was the ultimate "I can do it myself" person and usually was right. This injury forced me to rely on people in ways that were so counter to my personality. While my teammates were setting goals about how many goals they'd score or how many seconds they'd take off their fitness test times, my coach was setting goals for me like "learn to ask for help," and "take time each day to see something beautiful." I worked with a really excellent sports psychologist and she was the beginning of me learning to trust professionals and truly learn how to ask for help.

It was a brutal recovery and I'm still disabled in some ways from the injury, but it taught me resilience and perspective very early on and required me to completely remake myself and learn that I was worthy of life even if I couldn't do all the things I used to be able to do. If anything, it makes me a bit intimidating to some people now I think, because I've got that edge someone has when they've gone through something really difficult, survived it, and found ways to thrive afterwards. My STBX wife was really supportive about some of my physical challenges early in the relationship, but soon came to use them against me. She's not the first person to do that, so I didn't stick my head into the projection noose as readily this time.

This last summer, right when things were starting to get difficult for us, a friend from home overdosed after a decade of struggle. We were close in age and were both highly celebrated athletes from our hometown, both went on to high level college careers, and were meant to succeed beyond the college level. He had the same kind of injury I did, but didn't get the help I did. Instead, he became addicted to pain pills. I don't think his coach was sitting him down for the kind of goal setting sessions I had and he was asked to just "man up" through all of it. His parents kept in touch with me about how best to support him and were terrified about where he'd end up.

When he died, I had a moment of clarity and gratitude for my journey while mourning his death. I also had a moment of "forget anyone who tries to bring me down or shame me for this." I think at that moment I kind of stopped letting her bully me in the subtle ways that she did and I became way less apologetic about the things I couldn't do physically. The list isn't long, but it's enough to make life with me different and some things require more planning than others.

This is where I learned both my resilience and my compassion. I see what she's going through and think "ok, this is going to suck, but you can do this and you can adapt." Unfortunately though, she's not there yet - and I can get that, too. I didn't accept my lot right away and had a lot of denial, and a lot of self-destruction as a result. I never hid that stuff from the professionals I was working with, which meant that I stayed pretty safe despite how bad things got for me, but I'm no stranger to darkness.

On top of that, both of my parents are kind of the "survivors" in their families. Their FOOs are a mess and they are the ones who kind of rose up out of the ashes and did what needed to be done to succeed. My mother is the most resilient woman I've ever met and yet still manages to be the kindest, sweetest, most thoughtful person. My dad has been able to outsmart and outwork every challenge thrown his way and has one of the strongest senses of duty I've ever met. I come from people that don't make excuses (typically) and who face life head on. They're not perfect (neither am I), but I've never questioned their values. My STBX wife and my mom are very similar in many ways and they had a really special relationship, until all of this happened. My mom has been almost as hurt as I have been through this and really feels like she lost a daughter. She's been so let down by her behavior and so upset that she hid so much so well from us all. We don't hide things in my family. I don't think my STBX wife ever knew what that was like and really struggled to believe that people could see your hurt and your darkness and still love you.

What about you WW? How did you learn your resilience?

And - I agree with you ultimately: I want her to be happy. I truly hope she finds that happiness and I would have worked so hard to find it with her.

[Radcliff]

That's a fantastic post.  Thank you for sharing all of that.  You've answered my question, and then some!

What about you WW? How did you learn your resilience?

Ha!  I didn't see that one coming!  Turnabout is fair play!  I promise you an answer, but let me think about it.  I don't want to shoot from the hip.

WW