Having trouble with concept of JADE vs. speaking my truth

[Caco Canepa]

Hi all --

[A quick update. Married 4 years, with one 2yo daughter. My uBPD wife and I burned through a second marriage counselor, went through a really hard patch in January in which we both were consulting with lawyers. When triggered, she will go through bouts of saying things like "I'm done with this marriage. My main mission is to get you the hell out of my life." And then will eventually calm down, and become affectionate again. I sometimes see light at the end of a tunnel, but then she dysregulates and will say the most awful things, and I feel we're back at square one, with my affection for her significantly diminished. ]

I think we are better off generally than we were last summer when the fights were at their most vicious, or than January when we were contemplating separating. She is doing independent counseling, though I'm not clear whether she is becoming any more self-aware. I think my own actions and awareness have helped prevent fights from escalating — I've become better about recognizing my own codependent traits, disengaging, validating, and being mindful not to JADE. I'm getting through more conflicts with a better feeling of dignity. But sometimes I still get sucked back into JADING.

I'm having trouble with that. I've found success in heading off a destructive conversation by saying "We're getting very heated here, and I can't engage with this constructively right now. Let's come back to it in (one hour, two hours etc)." And have learned not to respond to the taunts and accusations of cowardice, not-caring, etc that she'll throw at me. The trouble I find is that I'm not sure how to make myself heard, beyond that. If I can't explain my position about something having to do with my house and how we're living, especially if she's doing something I disagree with, I feel voiceless and frustrated. And it feels an awful lot like I'm back to walking on eggshells again.

I understand the guidance to avoid JADING. But how do I get to say my peace? I feel like I've been relegated to being a silent partner during episodes, while my wife barks out orders, sets the rules and the tone for the house, and stews in her anger and rage, often unreachable.

CC

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[Beren2016]

Hi Caco Canepa

i am very interested in hearing other replies to your post

i undertand how difficult this can be. I am in a very similar position to you i understand JADE and always make efforts to validate my Girlfriends feelings. that being said i find it very hard to avoid being defensive.

Like you have said i need my side to be heard, especially if the conflict is triggered by one my actions that has been misunderstood. i find that i over explain, and when i gain no traction i end up spinning my wheels and explaining the same thing with different words, over and over.

i always have in my head "you can't reason someone out of something that they haven't been reasoned into" so in the middle of conflict validation could be the best that i can do because the emotions my GF is feeling are stronger than any facts i could say. Having said that "feelings are not always facts" so validation is my best option until the crisis has calmed and we can revisit the event and talk it through... .although this does not always result in my feelings being heard or help to avoid future triggers.

sorry thinking out loud a bit and i may have just said things you a familiar with, but i wish you well.

[isilme]

But sometimes I still get sucked back into JADING. barfy

I've been using this site for a decade and this is still a struggle.  Because we DO need and want to be heard. 

There are things you can ignore, like direct jabs and insults.  But when it comes to actual life decisions, real choices that can't be tied to an unstable person's emotional whims, it IS a challenge to get the conversation going.

1 - even without BPD, some conversations are tough.  There WILL be a fight, and sometimes it can't be avoided.  If you accept this, some of your distress at feeling you stomped on the eggshells can go away a bit.  It's not your fault if she has trouble staying calm.  You can only do your best to remain calm and also to not engage or respond to emotional "non-sequiturs". 

2 - Timing.  Obviously, we all need to pick good times for tricky conversations and choose the appropriate medium.  A serious talk about finances, plans for kids, etc., these need to happen.  But at bedtime is not the best time (not for me at least).  I know based on H's body-clock, he will be cranky in early morning, usually somewhat okay at lunch if we get food into him at a good time (diabetic - affects moods, yay), and evening is dicey but not terrible.  Bedtime, he tends to be close to dysregulation, so that's a bad time.  I even ask friends sometimes who are aware of a very sanitized explanation ("he has anxiety and depression issues" to assist in opening some topics, or stressing points that get ignored if I am the only one stating them. 

Likewise, some things are okay via messenger or text.  Others are not.  Face to face is usually best overall, as it helps you keep a real-time feel for how your statements are being received, and can also help with reading errors and anger at the perceived "tone" that may not even be there.

2 - SET - Sympathy, Empathy, Truth. "I know you feel very bad physically.  I understand how feeling tired can make this look even more difficult.  And I know the idea of any kinds of tests can be scary.
 But we need to go see that specialist to see if they can help you feel better.  Can you call them and make an appointment?"(<- where we are, currently). 

H needs to see a specialist in the next town over, 1 hour away.  He's pretty much terrified that they will cause him pain with their tests, and he's putting off calling to make an appointment, but his problems have not improved, and actually are regularly affecting his quality of life, pain, discomfort, feelings of inadequacy on other levels... .He needs to go.  I am willing to be the "mom" in this case and set it all up for him, but also want HIM to be the one taking care of it, so he can "adult" a bit and I can lay off being too enabling.  It's a tightrope, taking on things to keep things going, but not doing everything so he has some reason to feel pride, to feel accomplishments and some measure of independence (which he fights to keep but does not want). 

See if you can find sympathy and empathy for how your W might feel about a conversation topic.  Can you see how she may feel?  Angry?  Scared?  Wanting to just deny reality a bit to stay comfortable?  Uncertain about decisions and so putting them off makes he feel safer (I've heard some people feel more sacred once a decision is made, in case it's wrong, and since it now limits options.  They LIKE the uncertain, open-ended feeling). 

Can you put into words at all how are aware that she feels this way, but that the conversation and decisions have to be had/made?  That nothing is intended to hurt or cause distress, but something has to change?

Can you share some of the issues you would like her to discuss, and see if the BPD family can help you with ideas to be heard in a constructive way?

[waverider]

A lot of this comes down to boundaries.

JADE is a result of being pushed away from your boundaries and generally onto to more uncertain and harder to defend ground, which weakens your position.

Speaking your truth is good, over explaining, then explaining the explanation is starting down the JADE slope.

A good principle to keep in mind is "I am not going to do that" >"why not?">"because I am not comfortable with it" > "why not?">"because thats how I feel, and the more I am pressured the more uncomfortable it makes me". > "what kind of answer is that?> "the truth"... (then go do something else)"

... .Its the truth and you are not providing any more rocks to be thrown back at you. Even within yourself if you start expanding you know that the secondary reasons aren't really the real reasons, they are just excuses. Your boundary here is you are not going to agree with something that makes you uncomfortable.

[sotiredofthis]

I really like what you said, wave rider (great descriptive name, by the way).

I need to remember that. I'm not comfortable. That's the only explanation needed.

This topic is timely for me because I forget about JADE and then the slippery slope happens and it takes hours to recover. Getting defensive is a go-to for me so it's particularly difficult to only validate.

Anyone else get tired sometimes and just want to have adult conversations where you can agree to disagree?

[pearlsw]

Hi all,

I found this site during a particularly rough patch and the best thing I did was memorize what each letter of JADE meant (asap!) so I could keep it in my head on repeat and sort of use it as a filter before I spoke.

Is something I am about to say a justification? If so, stop. Am I arguing? Stop. Am I defending? Stop. Am I explaining? Stop. Then you really have to come up with some other stuff to say or stop talking! It actually helped a lot! This is one of the best tools ever!

If you can pair it with listening and validating you can defuse, or have the chance at least, to defuse so many potentially bad scenarios!

To get to say your piece do you try those classic "I feel" statements? Those are great for avoiding blame which can cause a lot of trouble with another person!

islime had some great suggestions here! What do you think of them?

warmly, pearl.

[BasementDweller]

Anyone else get tired sometimes and just want to have adult conversations where you can agree to disagree?

YES YES YES! I think about this all the time. And how actually explaining to somebody "how it is" in the case of a misunderstanding - if they are not disordered... .works. And we all go about our business. But What the heck to do with BPD. They aren't really able to accept the truth if it doesn't fit their narrative/goal/fear/assertion whatever that my be.

I love that scene in "As Good as it Gets" where Helen Hunt is lamenting to her mom, "I just want a normal boyfriend that doesn't go nuts on me!"

And mom says, "Everybody wants that dear! It doesn't exist." 

My life in a nutshell.

I used to be better at validating and not JADING, but I'm losing my edge a bit because my partner is such a dysregulated mess right now, that he tries my patience every minute.

Baby steps... .gotta get through it. Hoping for better days.

[waverider]

Anyone else get tired sometimes and just want to have adult conversations where you can agree to disagree?

Another principle to remember is that your "reality" is yours. Just as no one is entitled to overwrite their view of reality onto you, you should not try to overwrite, or "sell" your reality. State it, then leave it alone. Trying to convince a pwBPD they have it all wrong is equally a dead end. You cannot argue with delusions, as a delusion is a momentary core belief and it is like trying to get someone to change their religion on your say so. They become offended by what they perceive as your arrogance, and attempt to ridicule them. It is a sure path to escalation.

I try to phrase that my beliefs are exactly that, my beliefs rather than stating that they are the indisputable facts (even if I think it), which would be an indirect way of saying the other person is wrong. A person can dispute what are stated as "facts" but they can't dispute what you believe, as that is what you believe". They can claim your beliefs are wrong, but thats ok as you are not making the claim they are the facts, only stating your belief is what it is, you dont have to prove them. It gives you a place to stop the debate without being untrue to yourself.

It is your way of agreeing to disagree in a less confrontational way. Saying your piece without being drawn in, nor overly stirring the pot.

All these principles are easier to follow when you can learn to be less reactive, so giving yourself space before you reply is important.

[Caco Canepa]

I try to phrase that my beliefs are exactly that, my beliefs rather than stating that they are the indisputable facts (even if I think it), which would be an indirect way of saying the other person is wrong. A person can dispute what are stated as "facts" but they can't dispute what you believe, as that is what you believe". They can claim your beliefs are wrong, but thats ok as you are not making the claim they are the facts, only stating your belief is what it is, you dont have to prove them. It gives you a place to stop the debate without being untrue to yourself.

It is your way of agreeing to disagree in a less confrontational way. Saying your piece without being drawn in, nor overly stirring the pot.

Hoo boy -- I agree with this in the reality sense, but also struggle with how it leaves me open to a rhetorical death-kick from my dysregulated partner, as it were. (That i'd be open to charges of "Oh yeah, you have your own "alternative facts!" which leaves me defending my POV even harder.).

Islime and Pearl, Sorry to be gone so long from the discussion.   The way that JADE-ing and its spiral of despair really rears its head with me has to do with when we're trying to deal with the important functional issues of sharing a life with my BPD -- how to handle money, finances, time, our home, details of child-rearing, etc. We often reach stalemates on these issues, and wind up postponing them, taking no action, or defaulting to her way of doing things. I feel a sense of lost opportunity — we could be doing so much better, be much happier, if we could function in a more "normal", "adult" give-and-take.

I've learned that in some cases, I have to respect what I know as my own intuition and truth, make a decision, and let the chips fall where they may. For example:

• I knew that I wanted no more children after our first child, and discussed getting a vasectomy. But the conversation never went far — she would get agitated and lash out about how I was cheating her of her dream (and our previous discussion) of having two children. But honestly, our relationship could not sustain another child, and I don't want to tie myself further to her and... .I just don't want another child. I finally just told her that I was scheduling a consultation with a doctor, and then scheduling a vasectomy. And despite a few barbs she threw at me ("Well, it's not like we're having sex anyway and you're not really using your nuts" etc etc) the rage episode that I had expected never came.
   
• Our yard has been devoid of much flowers or landscaping because she wants to do a tens-of-thousands overhaul that I don't want to pay for or go into debt for. Consequently, she has raged at me for doing the small bits of gardening because it's a waste and will all be bulldozed when she gets her way, and "I thought you hated to waste money but here you are planting that ****. I acknowledge her feelings, told her that we can explore her plan when we save enough cash, and then started doing my small, tiny bits of landscaping and putting in flowers and rocks that make me happy here and there.

I definitely know that for her, these are issues of control over her own life — it goes into finances, bodily control, perhaps her sense of worth as a human being. I can understand and dig that, and I try to acknowledge it. I also have to accept that she often is incapable of  realizing when she is "swerving into my lane", and asking a lot of me, or affecting my own bodily and spiritual autonomy.   (WHOA!)


So I guess I've had some success with just putting my head down, taking some rocks and bullets, and persisted without doing too much dithering and trying to explain and justify.

I appreciate the nuance that y'all are bringing up in the suggested approaches!

[Caco Canepa]

I'm getting great takeaways from this discussion. Just making notes of these:

SET: Sympathy / Empathy / Truth

 Can you put into words at all how are aware that she feels this way, but that the conversation and decisions have to be had/made?  That nothing is intended to hurt or cause distress, but something has to change?

Is something I am about to say a justification? If so, stop. Am I arguing? Stop. Am I defending? Stop. Am I explaining? Stop. Then you really have to come up with some other stuff to say or stop talking! smiley It actually helped a lot! This is one of the best tools ever! smiley

JADE is a result of being pushed away from your boundaries and generally onto to more uncertain and harder to defend ground, which weakens your position.

Speaking your truth is good, over explaining, then explaining the explanation is starting down the JADE slope.

It's very empowering to be hearing this. Thank you! 

[braveSun]

So I guess I've had some success with just putting my head down, taking some rocks and bullets, and persisted without doing too much dithering and trying to explain and justify.

Hey Caco

I'm learning like you. I get what you are saying. It's very much an acceptance thing in the end too. I appreciate the idea that Waverider brought up. It's your belief. You state it once, than move on. There I see you putting your head down my friend. I see this because I have a similar problem. I feel like I have to accept the way my spouse is treating me and just move on. I have my truth, she obviously has hers. It is what it is. The order of the disorder, so to speak. You can observe it, but you can't change it.  And my big truth right now is about money. Naturally.

We'll have times when we have to accept that they disagree with us, just like when we are with a normal person. Some of those conflicts will not resolve the way we want them to resolve. But on top of it, we get to stay hung on some resolution that doesn't happen. Because our partner's illness. isLime says it like it is in her experience. It's good to hear even she  is still struggling with that.

What would you say is your biggest need about this situation right now?

Mine is being heard. I need my truth being told. I know I won't get validated by my spouse. It feels a bit like some kind of mourning for the relationship I don't have.

Yours may be something else.

My point is that it's a good step to identify our needs when we have these unresolved conversations. Than we can move forward better because we know what we need.

In my example, my need was to be seen. I posted on this board and I received validation of my experience. I feel a bit better about it now. I know that someone else is seeing me churning some tough decisions and gets it. I feel a bit less alone with this.

I didn't read through your posts, so I don't know your story well.

Do you have anybody around you can talk to?

[Caco Canepa]

Today's situation: Mother's day. I gave her a card from myself and our toddler, and her favorite bath salts as a present. We made breakfast. She was very sweet. At some point, turned snippy and insulting, and she began complaining about everything I did and how I did it. We went for a run together with our baby and dog, with her silently fuming. Halfway though the run she tells me that If i had cared for anyone other than myself, I would have stayed home with the baby so she could go running and have a good Mother's day.

I avoid JADEing. I just tell her: "I'd like for us to have a good Mother's Day, but I'm not going to engage with you so long as you keep snapping at me." She receives an invitation to go to a brewery with some friends. Tells me she's going, and will have a good mother's day in spite of me. I say OK. After a little while, she asks me if I'm going to go. I tell her: I'd love to go, but I can't until you to stop criticizing me. I'm more than happy to watch the baby while you go." She says: "Well, I don't want to go with a miserable ass."

I hate situations like this. I don't want to go meet up with friends and pretend, for her sake, to be the happy couple after she's been ripping my skin for a whole day. And yet if I defend my boundaries refuse to participate unless she backs off the abusive behavior, she takes that as proof of me being selfish. Anyone else feel pressure to lie and "make happy?" Anyone else feel like blowing your BPD-SO's mask off so that the world can see what they're really like?

[waverider]

Anyone else feel pressure to lie and "make happy?" Anyone else feel like blowing your BPD-SO's mask off so that the world can see what they're really like?

We all feel like this, its part of having our experience validated. However it serves no purpose "exposing" your pwBPD to those around.  Rarely works anyway and you invariably end up looking like a backstabber. As mentioned get your validation fix from sources like this. Dont compete with your wifes "public face", no matter how unfair it feels.

[Caco Canepa]

Thanks to everyone who's been writing back on this thread. I'll be writing about this in a new thread, but wanted to let you all know that later on, Sunday evening, my wife escalated to a physical confrontation, threw a water bottle at me, cornered me as I attempted to grab my phone and leave the house, and then began hitting me with both fists.

I left the house to avoid continuing the confrontation and I called police. Big mistake. It seems she got a bruise on her arm during the scuffle. In North Carolina, when a domestic disturbance is called in, the police are required by law to arrest the male and charge with "Assault on Female." A no-contact restraining order is immediately imposed. This means that I spent the night and a full day in the county jail — the most awful day of my life, as I've never been in jail before. Ill-fitting Brown jumpsuit, orange boxer shorts, plastic slippers, and after trying to sleep in a cold, bright holding cell with a twitchy meth addict, I was moved to a solitary cell with no idea what time it was.

It took hours between intake, hearing, processing etc, and whenever I was let out into the cellblock for meals or one exercise period, I was amongst guys who were in for everything from scuffles to assaults to meth/opioid possession. I'm carrying the stigma of "ASSAULT ON FEMALE" until trial in 40 days — and very much at the whim of where my wife wants to take this. Per the restraining order I haven't talked to her and have had to crash with friends, so I don't really know what she is thinking now. At least I can see my 2yo daughter in the meantime, and Child Protective Services has investigated and pronounced that I'm a good father and the kid is safe with me.

I'm deeply regretting calling police for this and I am over a barrel. The bright side is that I have family and friends who stand behind me strongly. And the other bright side is, this is a sign from the heavens to end the marriage and separate. And to begin processing and learning the lessons from this relationship.

Thanks to all of you, and blessed be. -- Caco

[waverider]

Sad to hear this. Maybe this will be a decisive turning point for you. Domestic violence tends to escalate so this is a nasty wake up call as to where it could go and the dangers of trying to argue the rights and wrongs of it once the authorities are involved.

Sad thing is this just reinforces the 'victim" stance of the pwBPD. The call next time could be made by your wife, and that will be worse. Not to mention the power she holds with the threat of it.

[Caco Canepa]

Thanks, Waverider. Unless something cataclysmic happens in the opposite direction, the relationship is now in the past and we are separated. The wake-up call was effective and gave me the push to end it, mercifully. I've started looking at new long-term living arrangements and seeing myself outside the relationship, and that's been turning into relief rather than fear.

I just have to take my licks, make it through first the criminal trial, then through the separation agreement, custody agreement and divorce. From here on out, my demeanor with her can be business-like, and I can get on with my life not having to worry about her judgement or opinion of me.

[waverider]

Thanks, Waverider. Unless something cataclysmic happens in the opposite direction, the relationship is now in the past and we are separated. The wake-up call was effective and gave me the push to end it, mercifully. I've started looking at new long-term living arrangements and seeing myself outside the relationship, and that's been turning into relief rather than fear.

I just have to take my licks, make it through first the criminal trial, then through the separation agreement, custody agreement and divorce. From here on out, my demeanor with her can be business-like, and I can get on with my life not having to worry about her judgement or opinion of me.

Might be woth you having  a look over on the leaving board
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=8.0

This will give you some insights into what you may expect, also maybe some support in regards to the legal aspects