Conflicts over financial support: Feeling hurt

[Depression = 72% of members]

My spouse wNPD traits is having conflicts over my needing her financial support until I can find sustainable work to take care of myself. I have immigrated to her country and was looking forward to launch my career in my field in my new city. 18+ years r/s, married recently.

About a year ago she has started spending large amounts of money on building additions to her house, buying marijuana, inviting a long time friend of hers to come live with us rent free without consulting me (friend has marijuana/alcohol issues and is a bit of a bully), triangulating with friends and family, black painting me, cutting me off of her finances, threatening divorce, attacking my self-worth and values in various fits over small and big things.

One of them was when I expressed my truth about her marijuana addiction.

I have my own return to work plan and am now living separately, at least temporarily. Hoping that when I start to get income the stress between us will be less intense. So far being separated seems to have helped bring a bit of peace between us, and much needed mind space for myself. I am in my late fifties, though. Progress on the job front is steady but slow. And so has my self-esteem taken a beating from this experience.

So far I have succeeded to secure a roommate to shore up part of the apartment expenses. She seems ok with the roommate, but that doesn't to bring much difference in the conflict. Her attitude is I should have my own income already. She is retired, lives comfortably, and doesn't like to have to reduce her own expenses in order to provide for my needs. Well, she said she would when we got married... She's just being difficult, month after month after month.  

In the last few months I have had to review my strategies, and considered taking a 'survival' job. Because now she says she   is broke. She has multiple sources of income, and I don't know much about it as a whole. I just trusted that she knew what she was doing and was planning on including my needs for a few years. She's is a high functioning type.

I have been having a hard time with acceptance of this. She puts pressures on me to get to work regardless of my professional readiness levels. I have been out of the workforce for two years now. It's a tricky situation. I have to upgrade my skills a little. She has been highly critical of me all long. I realize it's not really about me. Her ways to process her own insecurities. I have become very careful on what I share with her and how I do it.

I am getting tired to feel as if my needs don't count, or are a burden to her. It's a long and lonely road to try to pull this on without her full on support. But how will I be able to forgive her if I let her push me out of my goals at this time?

Recently I have noticed that I try to avoid asking her for money for food and my share of the apt expenses (roommate pays half). Because I am tired of her drama and manipulations.

It looks like now that I have found someone to pay for half of the apt, she thinks she doesn't need to help me with the rest any longer. I know it's irrational and that she's not thinking this through. But it's something that needs recurring level headed planning and communication. She's not partnering well in that.

I have tried to practice validating and using SET. It has helped. But how do I ask her for money (she knows that I need to ask her since I don't have income yet, and she knows how much I need roughly every month), without JADEing? It's the explaining what for, or why no job yet that I have a hard time with.

Welcoming any good thoughts and ideas.

[braveSun]

My spouse wNPD traits is having conflicts over my needing her financial support until I can find sustainable work to take care of myself. I have immigrated to her country and was looking forward to launch my career in my field in my new city. 18+ years r/s, married recently.

About a year ago she has started spending large amounts of money on building additions to her house, buying marijuana, inviting a long time friend of hers to come live with us rent free without consulting me (friend has marijuana/alcohol issues and is a bit of a bully), triangulating with friends and family, black painting me, cutting me off of her finances, threatening divorce, attacking my self-worth and values in various fits over small and big things.

One of them was when I expressed my truth about her marijuana addiction.

I have my own return to work plan and am now living separately, at least temporarily. Hoping that when I start to get income the stress between us will be less intense. So far being separated seems to have helped bring a bit of peace between us, and much needed mind space for myself. I am in my late fifties, though. Progress on the job front is steady but slow. And so has my self-esteem taken a beating from this experience.

So far I have succeeded to secure a roommate to shore up part of the apartment expenses. She seems ok with the roommate, but that doesn't to bring much difference in the conflict. Her attitude is I should have my own income already. She is retired, lives comfortably, and doesn't like to have to reduce her own expenses in order to provide for my needs. Well, she said she would when we got married... She's just being difficult, month after month after month.  

In the last few months I have had to review my strategies, and considered taking a 'survival' job. Because now she says she   is broke. She has multiple sources of income, and I don't know much about it as a whole. I just trusted that she knew what she was doing and was planning on including my needs for a few years. She's is a high functioning type.

I have been having a hard time with acceptance of this. She puts pressures on me to get to work regardless of my professional readiness levels. I have been out of the workforce for two years now. It's a tricky situation. I have to upgrade my skills a little. She has been highly critical of me all long. I realize it's not really about me. Her ways to process her own insecurities. I have become very careful on what I share with her and how I do it.

I am getting tired to feel as if my needs don't count, or are a burden to her. It's a long and lonely road to try to pull this on without her full on support. But how will I be able to forgive her if I let her push me out of my goals at this time?

Recently I have noticed that I try to avoid asking her for money for food and my share of the apt expenses (roommate pays half). Because I am tired of her drama and manipulations.

It looks like now that I have found someone to pay for half of the apt, she thinks she doesn't need to help me with the rest any longer. I know it's irrational and that she's not thinking this through. But it's something that needs recurring level headed planning and communication. She's not partnering well in that.

I have tried to practice validating and using SET. It has helped. But how do I ask her for money (she knows that I need to ask her since I don't have income yet, and she knows how much I need roughly every month), without JADEing? It's the explaining what for, or why no job yet that I have a hard time with.

Welcoming any good thoughts and ideas.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi braveSun,

Oh, you have my sympathies! I moved overseas to be with someone and money has been more of an issue than expected! I work, but it's not enough for my preferences, he makes a lot more, but has a lot of expenses as well due to a prior divorce. I'm not an extravagant gal. I never ask for money.

At times though him being the one to pay for the food, and myself doing all the cooking, cleaning, etc., has been more difficult than I would have expected - because he has a real skill for making "easy" things very difficult. It took me years just to get him to agree to a set pattern for buying food every week, it was like pulling teeth - just to purchase food. How basic is that? Argh! I thought I'd lose my mind!

Anyway, all that to say, if you need money you need it! And it will always probably be difficult to ask, but these are the agreements you had and you have to ask for it if you need and deal with the consequences if she doesn't come through. She may make it difficult, and there may be no way around that. I imagine she may not hold to a set agreement?

The only part you can ultimately control is how you feel about it I think. In my book, anyone who makes your life miserable around eating, having food, is... .just really too much. You are human, you have to eat, and anyone who loves you would help with that. (I don't deal with threats around these issues anymore really, but I will never forget them for as long as I live. It is so humiliating and degrading.)

You are not a burden. No one is. She can say and do all kinds of nasty things, but you deserve to be treated well by someone you love on such basic human issues, okay?  

Are you able to be in this new country, but apart from her? I am confused about your living situation. You brought in a roommate to a place you share with her, or?

I've had a big gap in being out of the workforce now too and this is a big deal - I get it! I feel your pain and fears! Do you have any hope of making this part of life work, I know I may not and I may leave ultimately just because of that. Just because I can survive here, it's not enough. Having control and not being dependent on someone else, I've come to see, is much more important than love, if you have to choose.

Would it help, I wonder, to set up a timetable for making things work and a budget of your needs? If she refuses to help at least you know where you stand.

with deep compassion, pearl.

[braveSun]

Hi braveSun,

Oh, you have my sympathies! I moved overseas to be with someone and money has been more of an issue than expected! I work, but it's not enough for my preferences, he makes a lot more, but has a lot of expenses as well due to a prior divorce. I'm not an extravagant gal. I never ask for money.

At times though him being the one to pay for the food, and myself doing all the cooking, cleaning, etc., has been more difficult than I would have expected - because he has a real skill for making "easy" things very difficult. It took me years just to get him to agree to a set pattern for buying food every week, it was like pulling teeth - just to purchase food. How basic is that? Argh! I thought I'd lose my mind!

Pearl, I know what you mean so much!...     

That's a big part of what triggers me to feel like I am somehow undeserving.  Thing is, it's a passive aggressive way to push back their part of the deal. I can see that. It doesn't feel good to be on this side of these behaviors. And for my spouse, she can't get much feelings of appreciation from me for what she gives me. I end up walking in frustrations too much. I don't sense she gets it.

It certainly doesn't inspire trust for making any future plans together.

I don't deal with threats around these issues anymore really, but I will never forget them for as long as I live. It is so humiliating and degrading.

Exactly. I am coming to this point where I wonder if I will ever be able to forgive her.

You are not a burden. No one is. She can say and do all kinds of nasty things, but you deserve to be treated well by someone you love on such basic human issues, okay?  

Are you able to be in this new country, but apart from her? I am confused about your living situation. You brought in a roommate to a place you share with her, or?

Thank you so much!...

I had to move out of her house. I left for a month, than returned and we agreed that I would come live in the nearby city (better for me to find sustainable work) and she would help me get started. We both signed a year lease on an apartment we both love. We both enjoyed the fun part of making a new home together at the beginning. Than the financial problems started to crop up. She quickly said that she could not afford to pay for the apartment. I took on my personal plan to find a roommate to share the expenses, so her burden would be less.

This scenario did slow me down in my plans for returning to work. Finding a stable & compatible roommate at my age is also not so easy. I have experienced many weeks of high stress month to month.   

I've had a big gap in being out of the workforce now too and this is a big deal - I get it! I feel your pain and fears! Do you have any hope of making this part of life work, I know I may not and I may leave ultimately just because of that. Just because I can survive here, it's not enough. Having control and not being dependent on someone else, I've come to see, is much more important than love, if you have to choose.    

 
Yes Pearl.

I am thinking hard on this part right now. If I can't find meaningful work I can't stay in this, no way. It's just not worth it.

On the other hand, she's retired and she's aging too. There is a dimension coming along with that. It keeps me from jumping too quick into any kind of decision. For now she has a long time friend (who does drugs, is an enabler) who lives part time with her. And she also has tenants who help her around if needed be. But while she says that she is broke, she also says that she likes that I am considering working from home. It's a complex situation, because working from home requires a home office and a stable, reliable setup. Something I could not have living at her house for the same reasons we are speaking about.
 
Control is such a big issue... I have my own timetable but I have such a hard time knowing what's reasonable to expect for someone my age. So far I had to take things one day at a time.

[pearlsw]

Hi again Bravesun,

I hope others will join us here and share their thoughts as well!

But I can't resist discussing this a bit more with you!

No, no, no, you are not undeserving!

I wonder if you two might want to talk and renegotiate the deal?  I know in my case I thought I'd find good work here much sooner... .but I do make just enough to cover some important expenses and I had a big savings when I started. That is much smaller now, but it helps me take care of my house back in my home country. (A whole other headache!  )

I think a lot of it is about control. People sometimes realize they have power over you, in these situations, and when push comes to shove they may use it. It is really so tough, on so many levels, to be an immigrant. I swear if I ever get back to my home country I will do more to help immigrants there!

Yes, exactly! So hard to make future plans when threats are going on! And it a very big deal to threaten an immigrant. Our residency (and potential citizenship) are at stake! I get it! Argh!

I wish you so much luck with your efforts to find work!

Oh, and all the people doing drugs around you! That's tough too. Not my thing, but I've been around people who do that and it is hard... .they are so focused on their addictions... .and there but not there.

Do you have a timeframe for if you can make it work? How might she react if you wanted to leave?

take care, pearl.

[Radcliff]

braveSun, I'm sorry you're finding yourself in a situation that can be so discouraging.  It's great that you are working on the things that you can control, and you have a plan.  You mentioned that finding a roommate was a big distraction on your path to getting work started.  Anything that takes our time, adds to our stress, or saps our confidence can really disrupt career things.  Are there any other things within your control that you can do to give yourself a better situation for getting work started?  Are you doing confidence boosting activities like physical exercise?  Have you been able to establish friendships and activities in the new city that put you in contact with others and give you a support network?

It can be terribly frustrating when our pwBPD don't appreciate the obstacles we face, and instead criticize us.  Does your wife have strengths that you can tap to help you?  Might you be able to ask her for her suggestions for getting your career started, both benefiting from her insight and incorporating her more fully as your advocate?  Can you listen to her suggestions without JADE even if you don't think her suggestions would be helpful, so that she can feel heard?

WW

[braveSun]

Oh, and all the people doing drugs around you! That's tough too. Not my thing, but I've been around people who do that and it is hard... .they are so focused on their addictions... .and there but not there.

True. Not my thing either.

Drugs is marijuana. It's mainly herself and her long time friend. They live together part time. They see it as medicine. To me marijuana is a drug. It alters people's judgement. It's an addictive substance. And it costs a lot of money to feed an addiction.

I have joined a support group for people in addiction recovery and their loved ones. This is really good.

Do you have a timeframe for if you can make it work? How might she react if you wanted to leave?

Timeframe is next month's rent. For a survival job I think July might be workable. To work in my field it will take more time I'm sure. That's something I am going to give myself independently of her reactions. Either here, or if I need to return to my country, than there.

Deciding to leave is a tough one for me. I have nothing to return to in my country. I had to give up my apartment last year. I came back with two suitcases and a few boxes. She had to pay a whole lot of money to setup this apartment last fall. I rather stay here for the time being, and try to find a survival job for the moment. My immediate plan is to find a way to afford a T. Than take it from there.

What hurts so much is that she is speaking and acting like as if she didn't have to pay for more than a survival lifestyle for me. Because if I have to take on a survival job, than she will be off the hook. Naturally it's in her best advantage that I leave or do that. She seems to go by the premises that either way I will have to accept that.

Yes, WW, I do have a new support group in the city now. Physical activity is walking. I take long walks at least twice/week. And my new roommate is not wBPD/NPD. It's very soothing to have her in with me now. She goes to work everyday at the same time and I get to sit at my home office and focus on my job search now. She will leave in July, so I need to get this working by that time.

Does your wife have strengths that you can tap to help you?  Might you be able to ask her for her suggestions for getting your career started, both benefiting from her insight and incorporating her more fully as your advocate?  Can you listen to her suggestions without JADE even if you don't think her suggestions would be helpful, so that she can feel heard?

Yes, approaching my spouse without JADEing is something I want to do. I need help with that tough.

[Radcliff]

Yes, approaching my spouse without JADEing is something I want to do. I need help with that tough.

Does approaching her for advice about your job search sound worthwhile, if even just to build goodwill?  Or is there another issue you'd like to tackle first without JADEing?

WW

[braveSun]

Good question.

Building goodwill is a good point. I agree. I kind of try to enroll her on my team, so to speak. In our good moments this goes well. Than something happens and all hell breaks lose.

An example of enrolling her on my team. I am working now on bringing more validation in our day to day communication. This morning she called and I had the phone on silent mode, didn't remember it, so when I called her back she was a bit miffed and I explained.

In my understanding, I had failed because that's JADEing to explain my reasons why I did what I did. But I noticed that I said:

a) I'm sorry my phone was on silent mode, I don't remember why.
b) I know, you have called a few times, I would have felt the same way too. I'm sorry.
c) Sometimes with my roommate I have to be careful, bla bla bla.

Result: She accepted that.

I realize what I did was SET. Than, the subject of the roommate's well being. It's something she respects because it's a part of the plan for me to reduce the apt expenses.

It was validating for her that I brought this point up.

Than I talked about some moments I had experienced lately while taking a walk that reminded me of her, exchanged a few thought on a topic I knew we both share. This felt good. Validating again. Natural to ask her opinion about this or that. Safe territory.

All in all, we had a good conversation. But it felt 'strategic' for me if you will. At the end of the call, she even accepted a 'job', that is she will look online for something for us to do together the next time she comes in town for a visit, while I go back to my job search . [pause]

The ending of the conversation was both good and bad. Good because in our last conversation, when things didn't go well and she told me she was broke, she had told me that she didn't like  the visits we have in the city together, bla bla bla. Well regarding those visits, it hurt my feelings to hear that because:
 
a) I felt rejected. She'd said that right after saying "You should move on with your life and not bother about me". Like questioning the status of our relationship. (We're married, remember?... ) I still feel rejected by this. Even though I have heard her saying at the end of these visits that she had enjoyed them. All of them.

b) Naturally, if she doesn't want to come see me until I get a job, she'll never know what my real living conditions are. Some things are damn embarrassing to demonstrate over the phone!... (I feel humiliated).

Bad ending to the conversation because:
1. I felt self-conscious and she picked up on that feeling.
2. The part I said about while I go back to my job search  didn't feel well received. In fact it was invalidating to her. Like as if I had a script, and said 'Bye now! I love you!', but in the habitual tone of voice of partners who have been together for a long time. Well we are. And damn, yes, my anger poked out in there, and when I realized it, it was already done. I wrapped it up too fast, and the reference to my job search was only my own jabby poke.

I felt bad about it. But also, I feel I need something more than these pleasant conversations from her. I need more. I still resent that she said hurtful things about me for not having a job yet, just for her own self-interest. That she doesn't care to validate me much. That she uses these tactics.

In the end, she's still feeling like all I need from her is money and says so. For me it's harsh life and double standards. Harsh life in particular does not help with keeping up intimacy. Double standards don't either.

It's acceptance of these ways of thinking, as a MO, that's so difficult for me.

Validation and SET and not JADEing are great tools. I want to use them.  I see that I can use them and get good results. I also see that I feel cheated by her ways. I'm having to use the tools, and she gets to feel like this is simply supposed to be that way. If she gets raging at me and cuts me off or whatever, it's because she didn't get the validation...

In the end there is my need to be seen, to have my own voice recognized, that's not happening. I get mixed up with the 'result oriented' persona she presents. I get mixed up with my desire to have a good, mutual relationship when things seem like they are going smoother. Not happening.

[Radcliff]

braveSun, in identifying the unfairness of unbalanced effort, and your loss of voice, you've put your finger on two huge, persistent issues for "nons" involved with a pwBPD.  I am sorry that you are facing them -- it is a heavy weight to bear.

I would be interested in the thoughts of others, but I think that imbalance of effort is always going to exist.  We must decide if the benefits of other parts of our life with our pwBPD outweigh this imbalance.  Another way to look at it is that they may be applying just as much, if not more effort than us, but are doing it ineffectively due to the illness.  One might say that they are not getting the better end of the bargain.  Nobody is.

Regarding the loss of voice, that one personally hit me very hard.  To me, it feels more dangerous than an imbalance of effort.  We can "suck it up" and deal with working hard, but losing our voice is an existential loss that threatens our well-being.

What are some of the most distressing ways you feel voiceless, or topics or situations you feel most voiceless with?

WW

[braveSun]

Yes WW.  I have a heavy heart right now. Thank you for your most insightful words. I've read a bit on your posts of last fall, and I am humbled by your story. The example you gave about the back rub you gave your spouse, and she wouldn't give you one back when you asked, it fits my own story like a glove. Mine acts like she does, but she delivers in a very irritating way...

What are some of the most distressing ways you feel voiceless, or topics or situations you feel most voiceless with?

Some of the most painful experiences for me have been when I need her to do something about something I need. I've come to feel a certain shame for needing something for myself because it's only paid by her money. Really basic needs. Shelter, food, healthcare, transportation. It's humiliating. I'm in my late fifties I don't have income yet, and haven't been in the workforce for two years now. Anything that has nothing to do with what we both share or have in common. There are small and big things.

One example is the apartment expenses. I'm the only one living at the apartment now because she doesn't want to pay for it. I have asked her to help me get started with it until I can get on my feet. She agreed to that. 

The problem is when it's time to pay the rent or bills, she acts as if I should have it all under control already. I try as much as I can, and until this month I had not found a stable roommate nor job yet. I see that month to month I gradually learned a new behavior. I postpone talking to her about upcoming expenses until the last minute because I dread asking her. She tries to make it difficult every time. Goes into a fit, questions my character, acts like she is broke, than after hearing me speaking about other things, all of a sudden she'd talk about another source of money I had not heard about in a long time that is due to come in, bla bla bla. Tells me 'This is the last time I pay for this', etc...    

Last time I did ask for instance, she took 5 days to deposit the money in my account (a 2 min phone call) and the rent was 5 days late, incurring a $100 late fee. She got the same email late fee notice I have. Never said a word about it. She never owned the fact that she was late paying for it and I ended up paying for the late fee using the small amount of money I budget for food for myself that month. Than, she ignores all of it and liberally spends for herself, talks about how she had this great meal, etc... We live separately now.

Another example is food. Right now it's me being broke, not having enough foods. When she used to come to the city for a visit, she'd offer to go to get groceries and she'd pay for it. 11 days ago she came. That morning she woke me up to tell me that she was already at the grocery store, and to tell her (on the spot) what I wanted. I was not expecting her that early, so I didn't have my list ready. Told her 3 things of the top of my mind. On the 3 things I told her, one she brought, the 2nd she brought the wrong kind, and the 3rd item she flatly refuse to buy it (a $5 item). When she handed me the small bag with the 2 items, there were 2 large bags of grocery sitting on the bottom of her car chuck full of groceries for herself. That was it for her spousal duties.

Before I have a chance to talk to her about another trip to the grocery store she declares that she is broke right now, can't afford to do anything more. This is a person who enjoys a comfortable life, has multiple income, invited me here to her country and told me I would not have to worry about my expenses once here. Let's not get confused by the actions of the day. Later on I had to tell her that this month I found a roommate, which is great, but I still need her help for food and the bills. Her response was she had to pay for her insurances this month, so she's broke. Than later she tells me that she didn't like the visits we've been having together in the city, and we cannot make any plans together because I don't have a job yet. Never mind that she was totally loaded when she called.

There are many other examples I can go on and on with. Eye glasses, car sharing, therapy expenses, health insurance, you name it.

There was a time when I did confront her on these ways. I had to learn to start to temper my anger and to speak to her in a different way. Because she triangulates with her friends and family.  I've seen quite a few of them turn on me over time. It's useless. I have nothing to prove.

That's what I mean with being voiceless. It's like in her mind, I should take care of my own needs. And in my mind, I am struggling with not knowing how long it will take. Probably much longer than what she can manage.  She doesn't work, so she doesn't realize what it's like to look for a job at my age. But really I'm learning that I am the one excusing her when I say this. I should not feel like this. This is not normal stuff.

[Radcliff]

I should not feel like this. This is not normal stuff.

No, it is not.

At some point in my relationship, I started to think that there were many things that I was experiencing that were unhealthy, but for which I was willing to learn tools and work hard to support my partner and my marriage, and there were other things that felt abusive, where I was less confident about my ability to manage.  But I had no frame of reference to understand where "unhealthy" ended and "abuse" began.  Then, one day, I came across this graphic called the Relationship Spectrum, which directly addressed my question.  Look for the part about "Exerts economic control."

This is not something that can get fixed overnight, but it needs to be addressed.  You cannot control her behavior, only your own.  If you get a handle on the things you can control, she may start behaving differently, or she may not.

Can you describe what you think would be the bare minimum level of support from her that you'd like to have agreed to, and followed through on automatically without any drama?

WW

[braveSun]

WW, thank you for walking me through this. It is a tough place I'm in.

I would say that so far financial issues have been approached but not been openly discussed. Problems are not resolved without conflicts. Some are unresolved.  There seem to be an issue of entitlement. It's her money, and she's not keen on sharing the details of her finances. She's the one who controls hers and mine until I am able to take care of myself. She pushes for that to happen asap. It's difficult for me to expect much equality in the future the way things are going. It's the road to my financial independence that, well... ., I feel a bit overwhelmed.

You cannot control her behavior, only your own.  If you get a handle on the things you can control, she may start behaving differently, or she may not.

I am very aware of that. I cannot control the outcome of my efforts as much as I would like either, but I know that I need to be persistent and steady in my efforts. Even under normal circumstances this is a difficult situation.

So far, I've been having a few pep talks with her and did share as much as I could of my progress. She seemed to feel a bit safer when she saw the things I did that produced tangible results. Like I got a roommate, did put some blackout curtains up to reduce the electric bill, decided to look for opportunities to work from home, so that I would not need a car right away, fixed up my office so I could work long hours in it. These steps I took helped her see that I was in it in earnest. Still her response has not been too too encouraging.   

Having a roommate this month, I have been able to pull through for a big part of the apt expenses, but not all of it. She's not picking up for the difference. Maybe it's a bit too early to judge, but I feel uneasy.  Recent conversations tend to go like 'we can't make plans together until you have a job', than on the expenses of this month, 'I'm broke.'

On the emotional level it's the hardest. I am very grateful for these boards.

Can you describe what you think would be the bare minimum level of support from her that you'd like to have agreed to, and followed through on automatically without any drama?

Yes I have described it to my spouse. She knows how much I need every month, and for what. I have kept my living expenses to a bare minimum.

[braveSun]

Can you describe what you think would be the bare minimum level of support from her that you'd like to have agreed to, and followed through on automatically without any drama?

To clarify here, I'll need $x/month to cover for:
-  half the apt expenses (rent, bills, household products, etc... )
-  my minimal personal expenses (food, bus tickets, phone, laundry, etc... )

And I'll need a lump sum of $y to cover for non-recurring and/or unexpected expenses such as:
-  job searching/interview prep needs, like haircut, printing, small networking expenses (coffee shop or lunch)
-  cover rent/bill gaps between roommates if needed
-  professional work tools or memberships if needed
-  emergency travel if needed

Once I start to have income I wish to be able than to pickup the monthly expenses first, than to gradually address the non-recurring/unexpected once my monthly expenses are covered.

[Radcliff]

braveSun,

I'm going to ask a question that may seem silly or worse, it's leading somewhere... .
How do you feel about asking for this financial support?

Can you please fill us in or remind us of the history of your relationship?  How long ago you met, how long you've been together, how long you've been married, when you came to her country, etc.?

WW

[braveSun]

Known each other 20+ years
Together 18+ of those
Came and got married 2 yrs ago

I have asked her already. I feel humiliated. Stuck.
Deceived in some way. I didn't sign up for that. 
Sad, and angry.

[Radcliff]

Known each other 20+ years
Together 18+ of those
Came and got married 2 yrs ago

Were you in a long distance relationship for 16 years?  How often/much did you see each other?  Is this a different relationship than the one you mentioned in your initial post here?
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239972.msg12552524#msg12552524

I have asked her already. I feel humiliated. Stuck.
Deceived in some way. I didn't sign up for that. 
Sad, and angry.

I'm sorry, that's a lot of feelings, and I'd expect that if I were in the same situation, I'd be having much the same feelings.  You moved to her country for love, uprooting your career to do so, and you are now hunting for a job in a foreign country.  You made a noble sacrifice.  It is nothing to be ashamed of.  When you talk to her about it, are you able to feel calm and confident in the reasonableness of what you are asking for, or do your feelings or her attitudes make that difficult?

May I ask how old she is?  You said she is retired.  Is she close to "typical" retirement age?

If retirement were financially an option, would you want to retire?  Or do you want to spend more time working for self-fulfillment?

WW

[braveSun]

Were you in a long distance relationship for 16 years?  How often/much did you see each other?  Is this a different relationship than the one you mentioned in your initial post here?
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239972.msg12552524#msg12552524

Not really long distance, but for some of it, we had to. Initially I was working in her country. Than at some point we were hit by a serious disaster in her area, and our plans got disrupted. We did have a break for a few years after the disaster. Initiated by her having an affair. We got back together recently and got married.

We were each other's primary relationship for the duration of our 'active' time together (18+ years by now). Because our relationship was not recognized for immigration we could not get married even if we did want to. So we had to make do with our circumstances. We took many trips together, she came to spend summers in my country, I would go visit her when I could get off work. We talked on the phone a lot. Everyday for all those years.

I have to be careful with your question because there is this idea out there that a long distance relationship is not a real committed relationship. In our case, it's more that we were forced to be apart, either because I needed to work (could not get work visas indefinitely), or because of the effects of the disaster, taking up a lot more resources for recovery than we had. And of course, with a same sex relationship, we have to be careful not to minimize the validity of the relationship, nor the impact of these difficulties. They definitely made our bond stronger.

The post you are referring to is for another relationship that I have attempted while we were in that break period. That relationship failed.

When you talk to her about it, are you able to feel calm and confident in the reasonableness of what you are asking for, or do your feelings or her attitudes make that difficult?

It depends on her moods of the moment. Mostly it's her reactions and the things she said when she started to criticize me. Now she doesn't criticize as much, and even at times she is very nice, says all the right things, and I feel the gush of reinforcement all right... One of the most discouraging aspect of this is that overtime, I see that I have adapted to her moods and learned to talk about this at certain times only, but I also have had to accept some unacceptable delays. And the most recent learned behavior of mine is that I, just like you were previously asking, find myself crunching my needs to the very bare minimum. Because I want to been accepted, or seen as reasonable. And naturally, I get used to make do with secondary standards, because when she says she's broke, it definitely doesn't mean the same thing than when I say I'm broke.  It's embarrassing that I'm being played this kind of discrepancy over time.

Example, I will not put heathcare, or health insurance on my bare minimum list. Or I will not include the extra amounts for some job search tools or professional tools when comes the time to tell her how much I need.  

May I ask how old she is?  You said she is retired.  Is she close to "typical" retirement age?

If retirement were financially an option, would you want to retire?  Or do you want to spend more time working for self-fulfillment?

She's passed retirement age, and I am not there yet. I definitely don't see any options for early retirement for myself. Besides, I need to work even more so, even if just for my own sanity.

She's doing pretty well with her personal health care, and in general is in very good shape for her age. From time to time an issue will crop up, and usually we find a resolution. She has people around her at her house, so it's safe for me to be in the city.

It's my belief that I should work now while I still can.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for all the answers!  That helps us understand your situation better.  You certainly have had to overcome many obstacles in this relationship!

You are not willing to put health care on you minimum list?  Do you have health care?

Where I was going with the retirement question was if she was retired, and you were open to retiring, why not the both of you just enjoy it together.  I wanted to understand if you felt pressure to work from her.  But it sounds like you want to work for your own fulfillment, which I certainly understand.

Does the money you stand to gain by working have benefits for you as a couple that she might appreciate?  More money to travel, more security, etc.?

WW

[braveSun]

Thanks for all the answers!  That helps us understand your situation better.  You certainly have had to overcome many obstacles in this relationship!

Yes indeed.

Where I was going with the retirement question was if she was retired, and you were open to retiring, why not the both of you just enjoy it together.

  Yeah, why not?...   How sweet can it get?... .   

I wanted to understand if you felt pressure to work from her.  But it sounds like you want to work for your own fulfillment, which I certainly understand.

Both. It's the tricky part. I do want to work for fulfillment in my field. This energizes me. That would be a good way to amp up my enjoyment of my life. The road to get that together is longer than I expected. She is pressuring me to get a job yesterday. In technicolors. She does have impatience, but it's not really the point. It's her approach about it, the depreciation campaign against me, the small deceits, the triangulation, the gut wrenching tactics. Her feelings going up and down. The drugs, and how this affects her judgement (paranoia). 

Yes, once I have income, she will have more fun money to spend on herself, her family and friends, and for us to play together. (Notice the order in which I have written this down). I wish I can pay for this apartment on my own and get a decent car. So it becomes more of a second home for us. But I do have reservations on the picture of 'retirement enjoyment together'. There is someone right now living with her PT who is kind of bullish and seems to be very much an enabler.  That, really, is another topic of it's own.

About security, I will be financially dependent on her for a good while more. I will need to secure some savings for myself for sure. That's something I'll have to figure out down the road. Eventually, merging our re-organized lives would make sense. Once she needs someone at home with her full time.

But how can she reconcile the shifts in vulnerability between us, once her health deteriorates and she becomes the one who needs more support? At the beginning of our marriage she has done good things for me. But  from there and increasingly, she has treated me more like I am a burden to her. I have learned to tiptoe around her and talk nice for my needs to be regarded, at least in some fashion.  She told me that her drugs are more important to her than her relationship with me, WW. I know in my heart it's not true, because of our long history together. But she has changed. It seems that her sense of those good memories has changed. And with what I have experienced (with the ex wBPD) and learned while we were separated, I expect (for good or bad) her attitude will not change much. I see the patterns and how they hurt, no matter the labels.

[Radcliff]

She told me that her drugs are more important to her than her relationship with me, WW. I know in my heart it's not true, because of our long history together. But she has changed. It seems that her sense of those good memories has changed. And with what I have experienced (with the ex wBPD) and learned while we were separated, I expect (for good or bad) her attitude will not change much. I see the patterns and how they hurt, no matter the labels.

braveSun, I am so sorry.  I was talking with a close friend last night about some of the things my wife has said to me that you should never hear from someone who loves you.  Yet there is a long history.  We met 30 years ago, and essentially finished raising each other.  There are many happy memories, and many bad ones.

As you paint a picture of the coming years, I am sensing apprehension, and not much anticipation of good things.  I am sorry.  This is a time in life where I would wish for you that you could ease up and enjoy things a bit.  Perhaps a lot!

WW

[braveSun]

Thank you for your help with this WW. Yes, I do have apprehensions. I used to think of this as her being selfish. Now I see that there is more to it, and that the best way to look into my future is to accept that there will not be a smooth retirement enjoyment as one might desire or think it be available there.

Accepting this is difficult.
It takes time.

I am going to take care of myself a bit now. Staying away from thinking for a few days.

Again, thank you very much for your presence and helping me sort my thoughts about this. I am grateful for you being on this board, with all of your experience and determination. It's good to not be so alone.

As they say down here, tomorrow is another day. I got some work to do.

[Radcliff]

As they say down here, tomorrow is another day. I got some work to do.

Got it!  Keep us posted!

WW

[braveSun]

Well, good news. I have to share.

She did help me with foods & bills this week finally. I feel more at ease now. Can focus more on my job preparation. Much less stress.

Still I have to process further all of what this means to me. I don't have all the answers. But I'm not stranded like I thought I was.

I am most grateful for your kind and wise words, WW and Pearl. 

Thank you.

[pearlsw]

hey braveSun,

good news on the food issue! glad that worked out this week. i'm hoping for food this week too! so glad to have the company of another person who gets this!

anything looking possible with the job search?

warmly, pearl.

[braveSun]

Possible? Yes indeed. It's a challenge, no less.
But it's possible for sure. Working on my job interview prep.

 

[pearlsw]

Okay! Thanks for letting us know! Pulling for you! 

good luck, pearl.

[Radcliff]

braveSun,

It's been a little while.  How are things going!

WW

[braveSun]

Thanks for checking WW! I have been quite busy with my job preparation (interview questions prep, job market researches, etc... ). And my spouse did help me with food, bills last month, and the June rent. Ended up being one of the better months I've had regarding this type of stress.

However, there has been some hiccups. One is that she did have a medical emergency and I went to her house to be with her for a few days. We had a very sweet time together once she recovered from the medical crisis. It was a bit like a return to the good times we had in the past, and both of us got kind of caught into the dream of those memories.   

Hiccups for me because I know that while this was one of the warmest moments we've experienced together in the last couple of years, it's also not going to stay that sweet.

Came back at the apartment a few days ago, and in addition to my work preparation activity, she asked me to help her with a small graphic design project she needs done for an art show she will be part of.

This is also very exciting for me, since it is directly in my field of work, and can allow me to produce a new piece of work for my portfolio.

However, she has already started to speak about the printing costs and she is reigning in the creative range a whole lot. We're on Day 2. I have already put in a lot of hours on this assignment, hoping this can serve as a portfolio piece. She's backing off, trying to shrink possibilities to the bare minimum, expecting me to just do a run of the mill piece. Not good for my own interests in the project. More about only hers, actually.

Than the third hiccup. She learned this week that a couple of sources of income she was working on are falling out. A bit disappointing, but she knew to begin with that these sources were not a certainty. The itch is that she also spent a whole lot of money regardless on property additions last year, said she was expecting to pay for them with the new potential income. Not so good news for me. She's has not exactly been saying that I am at fault, but did not hesitate to take a jab or two at me for not having started to work yet.

Well... .She is a high functioning person not doubts, but not normal.  On my side I see myself going slower than I would like and I don't like the slowness. I see that putting the blame on me is one of her favorite ways to bring the attention away from her own lack of forethought. Intellectually I am very aware of this mechanism. Her own way to process her feelings... There's been a lot of pain around this between us, and that pain has a way to slow me down. I still feel hurt from the past years rages and undeserved criticism. I know that now she chooses to not attack me like before, but that she still thinks I'm defective the same. In those moments. I'm surprised at how much the faintest allusion to the topics of past attacks ends up triggering me all over again.

So there. Is there actually a false hope that she and I will ever find a place of peace and balance, bla bla bla?...

I know the answer.

It was such a sweet time we've just had together... I want to keep it going, naturally. I want to believe her, that all the problems are in my own power to resolve, bla bla bla... She really believes I'm the source of her stress, and I am catching myself thinking like it should be easier for me to just take any kind of jobs right now. Just to stop the problem once and for all...

Well I know the answer. It won't stop the problem.

It's the way this stuff catches back with me...    

[Radcliff]

Thanks for the update!  I'm glad you had some good times.  It sounds like you see things with clarity, though that doesn't make the feelings any easier to bear.  I'm getting a sense from the tone of your messages that you're developing a head of steam on your job search.  Are you feeling more energy and optimism now?

WW

[braveSun]

I'm getting a sense from the tone of your messages that you're developing a head of steam on your job search.  Are you feeling more energy and optimism now?

Well, WW, I did. Things were looking up for a while. Than today got muddy again.  

I did have to ask her for some money again. Last month, she did end up depositing some in my account after all. I ended up being able to replenish the pantry and pay for the bills last month. At that time she also asked me how much I needed for the whole month (meaning June). I told her that amount and it seemed that she was agreeable with that.

By June 1st, she was in a medical emergency. She was very sweet than, we had an harmonious time together. Because of the emergency, when she asked me how much I needed for the rent due, I told her just the amount for the rent, not for the whole month's expenses. I didn't think too much of that. In those moments, I tend to think nothing too much of it. Later I'd come back with the rest. Big mistake?...

Today I had to ask her again for money for the bills. Some are due next week. Last week we did work on a project together (for her). She told me to buy some material for the project, that she was going to put money for it in my account the next day. I bought it. She didn't. So today, as I was talking about the project money, I added that I also needed money for the bills. I am basically running out of money again. (Note: I downplayed my needs again and I didn't say the word 'foods' because I have something in the pantry right now.)  

She snapped.  "Just get a job!"...

At that I felt like I was freezing inside. I told her that I was going to go for a walk. We ended the call.

Later we talked again, this time at the end of the day. We were both winding down for the day. I specifically had told her I was not up to talk about work or business stuff.

This is a small boundary. We both know things don't go well if we talk when we're tired. In general, she will try to respect that. Well this time, I guess she was already too tired or too done for self awareness.

So she goes on asking me to change a picture for her project. It's already submitted to the printers. Yesterday I did. I specifically told her yesterday that I wanted to submit it on Friday because I didn't want to have to think about it all weekend long. It's gone.

I slipped. I said I'll look at it Monday morning. She went on more about 'it's just changing a picture, it's easy.' I didn't respond to that. It depends on a) the printers; b) the picture itself. I repeated I'll look at it Monday morning.

That took me by surprise, but I did succeed in steering the conversation to some lighter topics. Than at some point she's telling me that she wants me to give her a schedule of my activities.

I froze there too. When I freeze I know it's one of my trigger responses. At that point, I need to find an escape, or steer the conversation to another topic very soon. I heard something in the bathroom, so I said so. We ended that call there too.

Ghee, that certainly won't happen... But I ended up feeling terrible. It's humiliating. These are the ways my spouse is addressing me. Not my values. At the limit it's her issues, not mine. But it has it's definite toll on the relationship.

Did anybody have their spouse with BPD/NPD ask for that sort of thing? If so, how did you respond to that?