Are There Any Family Members Out There Who Chose To Disconnect from uBPD?

[Angie59]

Hello and Happy Mother's Day to all of us Moms!

I just got home from my Mother's Day celebration and am thinking over some very serious thoughts.  I have written on this board many times, just chose a New Topic, because it sort of is a new topic, but my other one was getting really long too! 

My youngest son is in a very dysfunctional, crazy, relationship with his uBPD fiance.  My oldest son and my husband just got back from their house. 

The disrespect, inconsideration, and downright ridiculousness of what goes on there is becoming too much for me.  There is a lot that goes with this and I do not want to make this go on and on, so please feel free to ask anything you would like to, but I am just going to ask if anyone has decided for themselves to do a disconnect from the uBPD and family member who is causing all the issues. 

I know some of you have just by reading on some of the other posts and of course, that is why we talk about boundaries.  I just wondered if I could ask what made you decide this for yourself - to be the one disconnecting instead of letting the BPD people decide this for you and doing the disconnecting or NC?

Thanks,
Angie59

[Feeling Better]

Hi Angie59

For me, I could never be the one to instigate NC with a child of mine. Even though things weren’t good between me and my uBPD son it felt like I would be giving up on him if I were to go NC. I decided that if it was going to happen it had to be his choice, not mine. The reason I decided that was because I thought that if I was the one who instigated it then I would be risking having the door closed forever to a relationship with my son. He would take it as confirmation of his belief that I didn’t love him. Whereas if I let him choose, I thought well, it’s his decision, my door will still be open which would give him the option of coming back to me in the future if he so chooses.

[Panda39]

Hi Angie,

I feeling a lot of anger from your post.  I don't know what happened yesterday but try to let it go.  Your son and DIL are going to do what they are going to do, letting it upset you isn't helping, you control your emotions and I know you can get a handle on them.

Thinking about cutting your son off when you're angry, could lead to something you will regret later.  I'm glad you chose to come here to vent, that was a good idea. 

How are you feeling today? Has some time helped you cool off any?

I like what Feelingbetter had to say in her post, and I would like to piggyback on that and say I don't think that you want to throw the baby (your son) out with the bathwater (your DIL).  Maybe instead of cutting contact you lessen the contact you have with your son and his family right now? Use the time to work with your Therapist and let things cool off.

Hope today finds you feeling better,
Panda39

[Angie59]

Good morning!

Panda39, I see what you are saying about throwing out the baby with the bath water.  What happened yesterday is that there was more than no mention of the man she went on the trip with a few weeks back.  We had Mother's Day at their house and she had to work at the bar (which is where she met him to begin with).  She said, well I still need to make M a plate. 

Well I have been biting my tongue so long over disrespectful comments like that as well as telling everyone how this one guy in particular keeps trying to take her home with him, and how she keeps telling him, no, you have a wife at home, remember?  And you have two kids at home.  No mention of my son at home waiting for her and no mention of her own kids. 

The disconnect I am trying figure out in my head is not total NC but a smaller NC regarding them not talking about their relationship in front of me. 

Panda, I feel like I am a teapot who my son keeps filling up slowly with extremely hot water and there is no more room for any more hot water (my triggers).  Although he could not help what she said yesterday, because he refuses to listen to how we feel, yet we are expected to hear her and anything she should like to say because she wants us to "accept" her as she is, he needs to see how incredibly one-sided this all is.

When do I get to show who I am and how I feel and be accepted? 

Thank you Feeling Better for your reply as well.  I do see your point and can certainly understand where you are coming with regarding your uBPD son. 

Please understand, I am grasping and searching on how to keep my own self healthy and happy while I deal with them.  It kind of seems impossible to do to me right now!

[Panda39]

The disconnect I am trying figure out in my head is not total NC but a smaller NC regarding them not talking about their relationship in front of me. 

Angie,

What you are describing is a boundary and a really good one!    What is your plan to enforce this boundary?  I ask because people with BPD like to boundary bust and push our buttons. 

Panda39

[Angie59]

Hello Panda!

I could have sworn I posted back to you, but I must have gotten interrupted or something occurred because your post looks to be the last one on here. 

Yes, I actually made a boundary, and didn't even know I did!  Kudos to me - didn't even recognize it!  LOL! 

Well, the boundary for my son would look something like this:  He usually calls most evenings on his way home from work, for instance.  So the boundary is we can talk about his day, his job, what projects he is working on, etc.  He can talk about whatever he would like to me - but no talk about the relationship with his uBPD fiancee. 

The reason I'm doing this is because it is a no win situation.  He calls and brings her into the conversation sometimes, or the kids, and I have been biting my tongue so hard over the past 4 years, I'm surprised it hasn't fallen off by now. 

Panda, why do you suppose someone can say whatever they want to say regardless if it hurts another's feelings, do whatever they want regardless of who their actions effect, speak with absolutely no filter, etc... .you get the picture; yet I need to stay quiet and keep the peace and just continue to go home after each encounter with her either crying my heart out or seething with anger.  How does this happen?

I haven't even gotten into the disrespect my son shows me.  I woke up this past Friday morning with what I am hoping was a panic attack and nothing more.  I couldn't catch my breath, started crying because I was so afraid, hands shaking, feeling flushed, then hands became tingly, and a strange feeling went through my arms and legs - very hard to describe - just like a "whoosh" feeling.  I had to cancel babysitting that day and went to my doctor.  They ran some blood work and I have to have a stress test done and a sleep apnea test.  An EKG was done at the office and only showed a fast heartbeat, other than that normal.

My son has not even asked me when the tests are scheduled, what I'm having done, how I am feeling - absolutely nothing!  I really do feel I suffered a panic attack and am leaning toward the idea that my heart is okay; hope so anyway.  However, where does this complete lack of concern come from? 

Thus, the need for some sort of disconnect from him.  As far as his uBPD goes, he can't control what comes out of her mouth, so the only thing I know to do sounds childish so I'm reaching out for other ideas if anyone has any available.  My filter in conversation with her is now gone, just as hers never was, so I've been just saying what I want lately whenever inappropriate or disrespectful remarks come about.  This then results in my son coming down on me because I was all in the wrong.  It's only okay for my son's uBPD fiancee to act this way - not me or anyone else.

So what to do there?  I don't know. 

Any suggestions?

[Panda39]

Well, the boundary for my son would look something like this:  He usually calls most evenings on his way home from work, for instance.  So the boundary is we can talk about his day, his job, what projects he is working on, etc.  He can talk about whatever he would like to me - but no talk about the relationship with his uBPD fiancee. 

How would you approach telling him about your boundary?

How would you handle it if during the conversation he start's talking about his marriage?

Panda39

[Notwendy]

As far as his uBPD goes, he can't control what comes out of her mouth, so the only thing I know to do sounds childish so I'm reaching out for other ideas if anyone has any available.  My filter in conversation with her is now gone, just as hers never was, so I've been just saying what I want lately whenever inappropriate or disrespectful remarks come about.  This then results in my son coming down on me because I was all in the wrong.  It's only okay for my son's uBPD fiancee to act this way - not me or anyone else.

Hi Angie-
This looks like classic drama triangle dynamics and you are part of it - even if you are not aware of that. There is no winning on this triangle. Every role leads to "victim" and when you engage in it, that is how you are feeling.

Yes, the rules are different. These were also the rules I grew up with having a BPD mother and father who stepped in as her rescuer no matter what. This is the triangle and if you say or do something that is taken as against your DIL, your son will step in to rescue her ( against you) no matter what.

Disconnect from it all if you wish, or get into the issue with them, but either way, the risk of losing your relationship with your son altogether is there. I naively jumped into this and reacted to my mother, saying what was on my mind, setting boundaries in an inexperienced way ( I did not have the tools here or the understanding of the dynamics) and the cost was my relationship with my father. This is not what I wanted,  but no matter how unreasonable or abusive my mother was to him or her own children, he took up for her. This was their drama.

Personally I would not tolerate verbal abuse from them, but having expectations that your son will somehow care about your medical tests, or your feelings in this situation is probably unrealistic. A BPD relationship takes a lot of mental energy. Your son is driven by his own dysfunction in this. My father had only so much mental energy to go around. I made this about me, but it never was in the first place. Your son's lack of concern for your health is not about you. He is likely overwhelmed with his own situation.

I think it is good for you to practice what you might say about a boundary here first before you say or do it. I don't regret that I stood up for myself with my parents but I do regret that I did it before I knew better how to do it. If I was not so reactive to what they said, if I did not take it personally, if I understood the pattern of dysfunction ( drama triangle) and examined my part in it, I may have been able to do it better and in a way that didn't add fuel to the drama fire.

When you lose your filter with what you say, react, take your son's actions personally- you are adding fuel to the drama.

A first lesson on this board is "stop the bleeding"- this does not mean allowing someone to abuse them, but it means controlling your reaction to the situation- so you can think it through. It was hard for me to see my part in my relationship with my parents when I was feeling so hurt and upset, like you are now. But it was important to see my part in it- so I could navigate staying off the drama triangle.

Self care is key- get rest, take care of yourself. If your son calls, make this about you, not him for now. "Son, I am not feeling well at the moment and need to rest. I love you and will talk to you later".

A good acronym to remember is HALT - hungry, angry, lonely, tired. I could add others- not feeling well, sad, upset. These are cues that you are not up to dealing with someone else's drama and need to take care of yourself. It is best not to make big actions or decisions, like talking back with no filter, or making a big change in the relationship. It is enough to tell your son you need some rest if he calls and leave it like that for now. To me, it is huge that your son calls as often as he does. It means he still wants a relationship with you.

[Angie59]

Excellent questions Panda.  Unfortunately I don't have the answer to any of them. 

Thank you Not Wendy and Feeling Better for both of your responses as well.  Since my brain feels like scrambled eggs right now, I don't know what else to say for myself at this point. 

[Harri]

Hi Angie.  What do you think that scrambled eggs feeling is related to? 

I think I used to experience something similar (still do but rarely now).  My head would get all buzzy and thoughts would go so fast it was like they weren't even there.  For me it was associated with fear of what i was thinking or talking about.  It was my brains defense mechanism kicking in when I was working on my own issues, be it in therapy or here.

Do you think some of that is going on for you?  It would be normal in a sense if it were.  This is very tough stuff you are dealing with.  Not just with your son and STB DIL, but with your own self as well.  Take it slow and don't forget to breathe.

[Panda39]

Angie,

Here are some links about boundaries that might help you... .


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

Panda39

[Angie59]

Panda, thank you for the links.  I usually print things out and keep them all in a folder to read over and then to have available to read again as things come up. 

Harri, not sure what the scrambled eggs feeling in my brain is, but you brought up some good points.  It could be fear because I do have an anxiety disorder and further tests regarding my heart has not been set up yet; I am fearful of possible scary results.

I guess when I originally said it, I meant that all of the things you go through, sometimes many things in one day is so mind-boggling and so much to sort through and try to understand, that it makes your brain feel like mush!  Not much better of a description than scrambled eggs I guess.  Just feeling like you have exhausted your brain with it all and it seems there are no good or positive answers whichever way you look.  I'm just mentally and physically drained at this point and knowing that I don't know what to do next is definitely fearful.

I also feel when I talk to my son I will be being "fake."  By that I mean, "Hi honey, how are you doing? (kiss on the cheek, hug), did GS2 eat breakfast yet?  How has his cough been?  Have a good day at work." 

No one ever speaks of the big white elephant in the room.  Do you know what I mean?

[Turkish]

Truthfully Angie, it would piss me of to no end of one of my kids were on a marriage like you describe.  That would be me. 

However, short of cutting off my son or daughter and my hypothetical grandkids, there is only so much I would be able to control,  and it wouldn't be their marriages.  It would be me.  My choices. 

As messed up as this is,  you have the choice: to radically accept your son's choice, as messed up as I agree it is,  or cut them off, which is what I think you are positing (correct me if I am wrong). This isn't black and white. You can certainly maintain some amount of emotional distance while maintaining a relationship with you son. Sometimes the ball is on our court without being served.  To repeat, it would kill me to see either of my kids like this,  especially given that their mom left me for another man.  At one point, however.  I was willing to put that aside,  as much as it killed me emotionally,  for the sake of my kids.  I know that this isn't easy.

[Notwendy]

I think it is good that you have identified your feelings that your brain feels like scrambled eggs. For many of us who are caretaker types, we are so tuned into other people's feelings that we ignore ours, until they are experienced as brain is mush, or anxiety. These are signals to tune into yourself- and take care of you. Although you are understandably concerned about your son, his issues are his, and your feelings are yours. They say on an airplane- put your oxygen mask on first.

You can take some time to care for yourself without completely cutting off your son and his family. They may not like it, and even get angry if you are not available for them, but that is their part. I think it helps to identify your own boundary to yourself. What is you and what is them. Your feelings, your health, your anxiety- is you. Your son's marriage and the problems he may be experiencing is him. Stay focused on what is yours and if you need some rest or time to think simply say it.

A good rule to consider is to not use "you" statements when speaking to your son and to use "I" statements. This involves less drama. It may feel un-natural or fake at first, but it isn't being fake, it is changing your focus and with practice it becomes more natural. Let's say you are angry or upset, or not feeling well and he wants you to babysit. You have some choices:

You go ahead and babysit, but you don't really want to - you are saying yes when you mean no. That is not being truthful to yourself, but you do it out of fear. It is the easiest way to avoid conflict and not deal with the fear of the consequences- their anger and perhaps threats not to let you see the kids. In this sense you are trying to control their responses.

You say " I don't want to babysit because you are inconsiderate of me and my feelings are hurt". That "YOU" puts you into persecutor role on the drama triangle with them.

You say " I am not available to babysit as I have plans today" What plans they ask? ( well not their business, your time is your time, but you might say) " a meeting, plans with your father, plans to rest today" or whatever it is.

Which answer is being fake? The first one- we are being fake when we agree to something when we really don't want to do it. The other two are not being fake but one fuels the drama more than the other. Choosing the one with the "I" statement may not feel natural to you if you are not used to speaking that way but it isn't being fake.

So there is an elephant in the room, but whose elephant is it? It is your son's elephant. You can learn to leave it alone. There is a saying "not my circus, not my monkeys". It isn't your circus and you don't need to join it.

[Notwendy]

The drama triangle has been a useful model for me. Dysfunctional relationships follow this pattern. Two people feel more stable when they are bonded against a third. I observed that my parents needed a "persecutor". My mother would take "victim" mode and my "father", her rescuer. The role of the persecutor could vary- it could be one of their children, a health care helper, a relative, a friend. Didn't matter. Their relationship seemed to seek out a persecutor to take the focus off their own issues and on to someone else to stay stable.

The triangle was not just them. Sometimes my mother would vent to me about a sibling, trying to bond with me "against" that sibling. But once on the triangle, the roles can shift and I knew it was only a matter of time before I became the persecutor in the triangle and she'd bond with the sibling.

I think this could help you with a boundary with your son. A boundary isn't something we put on another person but on us. A boundary for you could be recognizing when you are being "invited " on to the triangle. It it tempting to jump in when someone is venting to you- because we think we have a chance to help. But if we know where this "invitation" leads, we can work on avoiding it.

The "invitation" is venting. Rarely my father would vent to me and I would open up about my feelings about my BPD mother. I would feel momentarily validated. What would happen sooner or later is that he would report everything I said to my mother and the two of them would bond together against me. I eventually recognized that, to stay stable, they needed a persecutor and saw this as an invitation to that role.

How did I enforce a boundary? I had to learn to recognize what was venting and what was reporting news. It is very hard to avoid speaking about a family member altogether. Your son is married to his wife and she is a part of his life. I think it would be hard to have a boundary on him not mentioning her at all.

I learned this later after my father passed away, so I can not apply it to their relationship. My mother still has BPD and still "triangulates" people. She would call and vent about a sibling. So my response ( note the "I" statement ) was "Mom, I feel uncomfortable speaking about S behind his back" and then change the subject. Now this doesn't mean she respected the boundary right away but I just kept repeating it till she got the message. I also use a pleasant and not emotional tone when I say it. I still ask about the sibling- such as "have you heard from S?" "How does S like the new job?".  This takes practice to discern when we are simply exchanging news about family members or triangulating. I also don't vent to her.

If your son is venting to you, he is inviting you on to the drama triangle. You may be tempted to think " this is my chance" but the drama triangle is circular. It goes nowhere. Yet, when you reject his wife altogether, you are rejecting a part of him. If he tells you his wife took the kids to a birthday party. Well great, that isn't venting. You can say something like " oh that sounds fun". If he says "wife is off seeing another man" you can say " Son, I love you, and I am sorry this is hurtful to you, but I trust you are able to handle this". ( these are "I "statements) This lets him know that you are letting him fix this issue.

[MissAlwaysWrong]

I want to have NC most of the time when it comes to my uBPD mother. It is so difficult and affects my personal life and other relationships way too much. I just keep feeling the FOG and can never do it. Unofficially my uBPD mother and my brother, sister, and father go without contact for a few months on average.

[Harri]

Hi Angie.  I am glad to read this thread which is aimed more at what you can do for yourself and your needs rather than trying to change your son and future DIL.  Good work Angie!

I just want to make sure I understand what this post is about so I can support you better.

Are you talking about cutting all contact with your son, future DIL, and grandkids?

Or are you saying you do not want to talk about his relationship with STB DIL?  I remember from your previous posts you saying your son does *not* talk about issues with his fiancee with you but that he talks with someone else who passes that info on to you.  Is that still the case?  Who is passing along the info?

If you are not cutting all contact, are you still watching G2 Thursday and Friday every week (health permitting of course)? 

If you do watch G2 at your sons house will you commit to not looking through their personal things (receipts, tablets, notes in margins of books, etc)?  That seems to be a great source of your difficulty with keeping yourself in a good state of mind to maintain a relationship with your son and grandkids.  As tempting as it may be do not go looking for confirmation of your fears.

A big part of making this relationship work will be separating yourself from your son by recognizing what is yours and your business and what is not (much as Notwendy talked about and we have been discussing for a while now).  We can continue to help you with that.   

[Angie59]

Hi Turkish!

I needed to hear those validating words from someone regarding how they would feel if one of their kids were in this kind of marriage/relationship.  Yes, it does really make me angry and you made me feel that it is not me overreacting or just being a protective mom.  With all that has gone on, I don't know how I could even begin to question my feelings in this whole mess, but I do sometimes.  You helped me so much as one parent to another and I can't say thank you enough for that.

I also understand that part about it not being all black or white but finding an in-between.  I want that too, but I think we are both so angry at this point and I think we are pointing the finger at each other with anger, when the source of the anger is not even being acknowledged.  I know that probably sounds confusing.  My son, for the last few weeks, has been carrying around this huge chip on his shoulder and has been very short and not himself at all toward me especially but also his brother and dad.  None of us know of anything we did, except for me.

I turn around and then get angry right back at him with a cold shoulder, or little conversation.  My son's uBPD fiancee does not appear to be suffering any of these consequences and she is the whole cause of this! 

I can't make sense out of it all. 

[Angie59]

Hello MissAlwaysWrong!

I don't think we have met yet on this board and I thank you for your reply.

It must be very hard for you to deal with your uBPD mother.  I really get the FOG.  It is hard to find your way out and I'm still trying desperately now to do that without much luck.  I think my son lives in Fear of his uBPD fiancee and feels an obligation to her and his family at the same time.  Not sure where the guilt comes from but I think it most likely is coming from his fiancee. 

I feel caught up in the FOG because I am in Fear for him and what has been happening to him mentally.  I can tell it is taking a huge toll on his mental state as I'm sure you can relate to as well. 

Well, we may not have all the answers, and may not always do things right, but we can hang in there together and keep trying.   

Angie

[Angie59]

Hi Harri!

No, I never want to cut all contact with my son and grandson.  Perhaps I came across that way because of all the anger, but that is certainly not what I want.

My son does not talk about his fiancee much at all with me because he knows that if he does, we will get back into the circle of me saying how I feel about an instance, a remark, or whatever, and he will end up defending her and around and around we go again.  Yes, you are correct Harri.  The person you are talking about is my SIL who lives in Florida.  We are all extremely close to her (we just call each other sisters) and she is Godmother to my son with the uBPD fiancee.  He will make comments to her such as, "I don't know why my mom gets so upset about... .," or "I hate when my mom is mad at me.  She does not understand that all (the BP) wants is for her to like her.  Then my sister puts in her two cents of it all, but it is like he is getting points across through her to get back to me because he knows her and I talk on a daily basis and she will probably tell me what he had to say. 

This evening my son and I had a discussion about how hard it was getting on his Dad and I because of the long days (usually 10-12 hours a day) on Thursdays and Fridays.  As of this moment, we are still doing that because we cannot come up with an alternative.  The idea of bringing GS2 to our home is simply not going to work because of the third hand smoke in the house.  He said coughs way too much after he has been with us for a day and gets up at night and they have to use his inhaler. 

I would never do anything that would make my GS2 ill, of course.  So, best bet sounds like, if you feel this is truly why he is coughing so much and especially at night, then bring him to the doctor!  See what the doctor thinks and being a pediatrician, they will most likely tell them any exposure to smoke, be it second hand or third hand or whatever is not good for them.  Thus, him coming here for babysitting would be out. 

You are absolutely right.  The looking around or seeing what is on the tablet that GS2 uses to watch his Daniel Tiger show is not in our best interest.  I asked my son's uBPD fiancee outright about the poetry books and said, I notice you leave a lot of these poetry books lying around.  Is it okay if I read them?  I see you have some things written in the margins and did not want to read them without asking first in case they were personal.  She said there was no problem with me reading them at all and she didn't care if I read what was written in the margins by her at all. 

However, the tablet is a different story Harri.  Our GS2 is allowed to use the tablet, again for his favorite tiger show.  It is a big surprise and a big deal to us whenever we hear, "Uh oh, Paw Paw... .and he brings the tablet to my husband to "fix" for him because he is on a page with nude pictures of his mother. 

Feeling pretty down, lost, and not even angry anymore.  Just feeling defeated by the whole thing. 

Thanks Harri for being there and listening.

Angie

[Notwendy]

Hi Angie- I would be upset as well and yet, my advice comes from the place of having been on the drama triangle with my parents as an adult, and observing my ailing father being mistreated by my BPD mother. It may not be exactly the same as seeing a child in the same situation, but at that point in his life, he was elderly and ill, and in ways, our roles had changed to me feeling protective of him. My attempts to help as a daughter were often twisted and thwarted by BPD mother.

I felt many of the emotions you are feeling - like anger, being upset, feeling like my whole relationship with my father was changed by his relationship. We did have a parent- child relationship when I was growing up, and I consider this bond to be very special and it was- even when I married, had children, and my children were close to him. Yet, my BPD mother was able to change all that. I was stunned and shocked. I learned that this also happened with his own family- his own mother- and I felt sad for her.

I have only stepped into this thread to point out the drama triangle because I wish I had known the potential results of my stepping in on it. It added fuel to the fire. I don't know if it would have salvaged my relationship with my father to know this ahead of time, but I do feel that participating in it made it worse and it has helped me to recognize when it is happening with my mother and other situations.

You've identified this triangulation in your response to Harri:

My son does not talk about his fiancee much at all with me because he knows that if he does, we will get back into the circle of me saying how I feel about an instance, a remark, or whatever, and he will end up defending her and around and around we go again.  Yes, you are correct Harri.  The person you are talking about is my SIL who lives in Florida.  We are all extremely close to her (we just call each other sisters) and she is Godmother to my son with the uBPD fiancee.  He will make comments to her such as, "I don't know why my mom gets so upset about... .," or "I hate when my mom is mad at me.  She does not understand that all (the BP) wants is for her to like her.  Then my sister puts in her two cents of it all, but it is like he is getting points across through her to get back to me because he knows her and I talk on a daily basis and she will probably tell me what he had to say. 



The first triangle in this statement is: your son, you and his fiancee. There are three roles on the triangle- victim, persecutor, and rescuer, but all roles are dysfunctional in this drama. Your son brings up his fiancee. You respond negatively. To your son- the fiancee becomes the victim. You become her potential persecutor, and he steps in to defend her ( he is her rescuer).

Son then vents to his godmother. ( he is in "victim" mode at this point- "I don't understand how my mother... .). Then sister puts her 2cents in - and takes on a rescuer mode- either in relationship to him or to deliver the news to you.

When you relate to your son, there is a third person involved- the fiancee or your sister. This is triangulation. It may actually be a "normal" pattern in your family. It is in mine- so much that I didn't notice it as it felt normal, but it is actually dysfunctional as it increases drama.  My goal was not to cut off contact with my family members but to change the pattern of my interactions so there was less drama with them in my own relationships. I hope it can help you as well.

How would you do that? The next time your son mentions the fiancee, don't respond with an emotional statement. This may feel dishonest to you. Most likely you do feel something and it isn't pleasant, and you can have your feelings but know that sharing them with your son may not lead to the kind of relationship you want with him.

I would be disgusted by the pictures on a GS tablet. The solution if parents want to have adult content on their tablet is to not share it with a child. I know there is no control over this outside your home, but is it possible for you to have a tablet at home for the grandkids? Then, you can put theirs away when they visit and they can use that.

I wish I could tell you why a decent person would seemingly be so blind to the actions of someone like your son's fiancee but I don't know and I don't understand how my father could overlook some of my mother's behaviors. His family wasn't like her. I do know that they were a good influence on me, as well as other mothers who did role model more appropriate behavior for me. It's OK to have your own rules in your own home about the tablet without saying anything bad about the parents. Taking away the tablet would probably be seen by the child as punitive, but getting to play with his own special tablet ( and doing other things too) at grandparents could be something he would look forward to.

[Angie59]

Can someone please remind me why a sit down heart to heart conversation with my son's iNFO fiance is a bad idea?

[CollectedChaos]

Hi Angie!

Reasoning with someone with BPD is not generally something that works out well.  You sitting down with her and speaking your mind about the situation at hand will not solve any issues, and instead will likely create more issues than you already have.  In situations like this, it is typical for the pwBPD to feel as though you are attacking them and they will react as such, even if your conversation is well-meaning.  She may even act as though things are totally fine during the conversation itself.  However, she likely will then go back to your son and tell him that you verbally attacked her/criticized her/whatever she may feel, and may even tell him that you said things that you didn't actually say in an effort to paint you black.  Clearly, this will then create a rift between you and your son (who has made clear in past situations that he will protect her), and widen the rift between you and her. 

It doesn't make sense to create a new situation in which this cycle can perpetuate.  This falls right in line with the drama triangle that has been discussed in this thread bu Notwendy and Harri.  If you have this conversation with your son's fiance, you put yourself into the persecutor role, she will become the victim and your son will become the rescuer.  Anything you can do to stay out of the triangle is best, but putting yourself into a position where you will automatically be the persecutor is not a good idea.  Don't start a new drama triangle - stay off the ride altogether.  You should probably practice medium chill with her whenever possible.  I think doing this not only will help your relationship with her and with your son, but will also help your anxiety.  I know it doesn't sound that way right now (I get it - this whole thing feels like a problem that you want to be able to fix it and feel better, I'm the same way.  But trust me when I say, you can't fix this), but once you effectively handle a couple situations in this manner you will see that the drama doesn't spiral and things are calmer and more manageable. 

[Learning2Thrive]

Can someone please remind me why a sit down heart to heart conversation with my son's iNFO fiance is a bad idea?

Do you mean uBPD fiancé? If so... .

Because uBPD = potentially a serious  mental illness.

Why do you think having a sane conversation with someone with a serious mental illness (insane person) would have a positive outcome?

[Angie59]

Hello Learning to Thrive and thank you for your reply.  First of all, the iNFO part of my post was a mistake, but not on my part.  Something was off kilter today with my computer or the site or something was not right because I tried putting in uBPD and it kept coming out as iNFO.  I don't know the cause of this but I know what the correct term is - it was simply a glitch somewhere.

That being said, I don't know why I think that having a sit down talk with my son's uBPD fiancee would work.  Still a glimmer of hope maybe?  A piece of me still in denial that he is involved with someone that has put us through so much and maybe it is me making too much of things?  I don't have an answer for you as to why I was thinking of that.

Problem may be solved now anyway.  I have been biting my tongue over the last 4 years with my son and his uBPD fiancee, been taken advantage of with the grandchildren, been blamed when the blame was misplaced to me and should have been her, inconsideration, disrespect, tons of hurt feelings and tons more of tears.  Today, I felt like I wasn't even in control of myself anymore.  I literally felt that I was standing there when she and my son got home from work and some other me stepped out of my body and just went ahead and said my piece. 

She said and said practically nothing.  I wasn't very nice.  My son just keep asking me to stop yelling and please lower my voice - anger was out of control for me.  I don't know what the future now holds for my relationship with my grandkids, son and her and her family.  In spite of the uncertainty of all of this, I do not feel bad for what I did and said.  I do not feel guilty.  I would not take back one word of it.  I really feel stronger and quite relieved.  I always knew if something like this happened, then I had to be ready for the consequences.  Whatever they end up being, it will be hard, I'm sure, but I know I will be okay. 

Sometimes when you keep all of that anger inside of you, one day the lid just pops off and that's what it did today.  Such a shame, but my son is so ready to lay blame on me - the drama triangle as some of you explained so well to me thank you Collected Chaos and Not Wendy).  She was the "victim" today, I was the persecutor, and he was the rescuer.  I have now removed myself from that triangle and am going to try with all my might to never engage again in it.  I knew I was going to be a part of it with the confrontation took place, but the anger of all of this craziness pent up inside and made to keep quiet and all the &#$( that went with it was too much to take anymore. 

Just thought I would post this to see if anyone had anything to comment, add to, etc... . 

Thanks once again for letting me vent.
Angie

[Panda39]

Not the choice I would have made.  But what's done is done and your right there will be consequences for your actions, some that you may regret later.

Panda39

[Notwendy]

Having a heart to heart talk doesn't work - as CollectiveChaos stated, reasoning with an unreasonable person doesn't usually work. In a heart to heart you are hoping the person will see your point of view. I don't think a person with BPD can do that, especially when  being faced with something they may have done to hurt the other person.

PwBPD have trouble managing their own uncomfortable feelings. A heart to heart involves understanding the other person's feelings. If they can't manage their own, then they can not manage anyone else's.

There are two mechanisms that interfere with the ability to "hear" another person's hurts. One is projection. If they feel uncomfortable, they project that on to you. The other is denial. They have such a fragile sense of self that anything that feels threatening to that self, may not register with them.

The likely outcome of a heart to heart is for them to feel like a Victim and then lash out at you. This leaves you feeling hurt as well. Personally, my own opinion is that I think the preferred role in the triangle for someone with BPD is victim. If you are hurt, you present yourself as victim and that competes with their preferred role.

I understand where you are coming from with your anger. I did that as well with my BPD mother. My father was dying, and I was distraught and had completely had it with her. Being that I was not feeling emotionally strong at the time I had a short fuse and let loose and yelled at her. Yes, I meant it, and I don't regret that I stood up to her, but I do wish I had known about the drama triangle before I did it.

Yelling at a person with BPD is like - peeing in the wind. It all bounces off them and flies back at you. This is again because of their tendency to use projection and denial. As you could have predicted, she went into victim mode and my father jumped into rescue her and was angry at me. My mother was angry and vengeful for some time after that.

I get that in the moment, getting this anger off your chest feels good. It felt good to yell at this person who had mistreated me. But it didn't work, because ultimately none of it registered with her. She projected it.

I had to learn a different way to deal with her if I was to continue a relationship with her. Using the tools on this board, learning boundaries and being able to manage my own feelings better ( this does not mean being a doormat to her but learning to pay attention to when I begin to feel resentful and then manage that by taking some space from her, learning to say no and not fear her responses).

Your son's fiancee is in victim mode now, and your son is her rescuer. I don't know what they will do- she will be angry for a while. They may or may not come around and when is hard to tell. I think for now, the fact that you lost it shows a lot of built up resentment. Take care of yourself. We are all human, and hopefully you won't get to your breaking point next time.

[Kwamina]

Hi Angie59,

I have been biting my tongue over the last 4 years with my son and his uBPD fiancee

Four years is a long time to be dealing with a situation you experience as quite unpleasant.

When you started this thread you said:

The disrespect, inconsideration, and downright ridiculousness of what goes on there is becoming too much for me.

When you consider your own behavior that you described in your last post, do you consider what you did respectful? There is a fine line between being assertive and being aggressive.

In spite of the uncertainty of all of this, I do not feel bad for what I did and said.  I do not feel guilty.  I would not take back one word of it.  I really feel stronger and quite relieved.

Perhaps it can help to ask yourself some questions:
- What is your long-term goal in your relationship with your son and your grandchildren (and also his fiancée)?
- Do you believe that your latest actions have contributed in a positive manner to achieving your long-term goals?
- Do you believe the way you expressed yourself to your son and his fiancee was in line with the values you deem important?

We have an article here about ending the cycle of conflict, I encourage you to take a look at it:
Ending The Cycle of Conflict

No matter how your son's fiancée behaves, it takes two to tango and you're definitely also engaging in the tango here. The article talks about commitment:

Make a Commitment to Stop Making it Worse
The first step is commitment. By definition, when you are out of control (throwing the proverbial fuel on the fire), you are not using logic (or any other helpful process) enough.

Commitment means practicing alternative reactions ahead of time until they become automatic. Then, as you start to become out of control, this new automatic behavior appears. In a way, commitment gives you self-control.

If you wanted to run a marathon, but you had never run more than three kilometers, you couldn't do it. No matter how much you wanted to keep running, you would be unable to merely will your body to perform in that situation. You would have to really want to run the marathon, which would get you out of bed early every day for months to work out, to practice. With enough commitment, you would engage in enough practice so that you could keep on running effectively (despite the pain).

In situations of high negative emotion, when it is harder to do the new behavior, you are likely to think, "I don't really care about that now". In this emotional state, you fail to see the consequences of your actions.

So, you need to get to a balanced place in your mind in which you are broadly aware of your real relationship goals and not just your painful emotion of the moment. It is important to practice now, so you can get there in situations of duress...

Would you say you are committed to stop making things worse? Are you willing to explore new ways of communicating with your son and his fiancee? There are structured communication techniques described on this site that can help you express and assert yourself to people with BPD in a way that minimizes the likelihood of further conflict and drama while maximizing the likelihood of you achieving your long-term goals. I am talking about techniques such as S.E.T. and D.E.A.R.M.A.N... Are you familiar with these techniques?

Are you willing to practice alternative responses ahead of time? If the answer is no, that is fine too, but I think it might help to ask yourself what you are willing to do since the only person you can truly assert control over is you.

You can read more here:

S.E.T. - Signal Support, Demonstrate Empathy, Offer Truth

D.E.A.R.M.A.N. - Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce, Stay Mindful, Appear Confident, Negotiate

Especially D.E.A.R.M.A.N. is designed to express needs for change in a constructive and respectful manner:

D.E.A.R.M.A.N. is used when you have an objective, you want something specific, such as to get more sleep, to have help with the chores, to affect a change or to say NO to a request. You want the other person to come away feeling good about you and not full of resentment. This preserves the relationship. You also want to protect or even enhance your self respect.
... .
The key to acquire the skill for DEARMAN lies NOT in following the letters. It lies in learning the underlying skills and practicing them well enough to then being able to steer a conversation through DEARMAN. When looking at DEARMAN it is clear that we are to express needs for change.
... .
A critical component when requesting anything is assertiveness.

We are pushing someone to change and we need to appear confident. While we are pushing we are possibly stepping over a boundary on the other side and we need to be careful to sufficiently respect to other sides other boundaries so that this push is not leading to escalation. It is a balancing act. Pushing some boundaries but not coming across as threatening the core. Assertiveness can be seen as one point on the spectrum of:

Passive --- Assertive --- Aggressive

It is far from trivial to balance this. Particularly hard as one can expect resistance when asking for change from anyone and often strongly from a pwBPD. We need to be ok experiencing resistance, it is expected after all and just a milestone on the way. When it comes to balance you need a firm stand... . 
... .
The key to acquire the skill for DEARMAN lies NOT in following the letters. It lies in learning the underlying skills and practicing them well enough to then being able to steer a conversation through DEARMAN. When looking at DEARMAN it is clear that we are to express needs for change.

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

Panda, I am somewhat taken aback by your response, to be honest.  I was under the impression that this was a place where you could air your feelings, vent, admit anger and talk about things when they go haywire.  You said not the choice you would have made.  Perhaps you can handle anger better than I can, or perhaps you are able to take more than I can.  I'm not sure what it is, but I am surprised by your answer because in sharing what happened, I felt that you became my prosecutor, judge and jury all in one with a guilty verdict!  Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, I don't know anymore.

Thank you NotWendy for all of your information.  I read over it and plan to read it again and again when my mind is in a better place.

Thank you also Kwamina for your response.  I don't think of my behavior as a respect/disrespect thing in the confrontation I had with them.  I have friends that I have been with in excess of 35-40 years and I know what it means to show respect to people.  I was also taught when growing up.  However, when you show respect to certain people (my son and his uBPD) and you continue to over and over for 4 solid years and get nothing, and I mean literally nothing in return, it gets kind of old.  So if what it seems I did was disrespectful, I think I can understand for myself why.  It doesn't make it right, but it makes it understandable.  I have never in my life ran into a person who takes so much mental work to just even get along in a superficial way!  This is now bleeding over into my physical well-being as well as mental. 

To sum it up, I am now not viewing this board (and this is not for everyone that has replied to me by any means), as a place that is supportive.  I feel like the victim here in a sense that I blew my top after all the things I have been through with this person (including now knowing for a fact that she is cheating on my son), and know for a fact that she is working in the porn industry, and know for a fact that she is causing damage to her children, and know for a fact that she has filed false reports to the State for aid, and know for a fact that she will never treat us as we deserve to be treated - not asking for much here, just as her fiancee's parents and treated with respect and consideration. 

Yes, Panda, I know there will be consequences to pay.  I don't know what those consequences are.  I do know it has taken a toll on not only my mental health but my physical health and I had to let off steam.  Was it doing perfectly?  No.  Was it done by the books?  No.  It was done as a human being who has had her fill of all of this and of working so hard for the past 4 years receiving nothing in return.  That's what is all sums up to.

[Notwendy]

I understand how you are feeling- as if you are not supported. I went to counseling to learn to deal with my parents, and then also to 12 step co-dependency groups. I had hoped to feel supported, after all, I was the "victim" of abuse on the part of my parents. However, instead of consoling me, both the counselor and my 12 step sponsor and the group turned the mirror on me. They pointed out my role in the dysfunction and how I was interacting on the drama triangle with my parents and adding to the dysfunction by my own reactions.

I felt hurt and angry and not supported. It didn't seem fair. My mother's behaviors were over the top and I am a nice person. I don't behave like her. I believe that you don't behave like your son's fiancee.

But I wanted something to change and the first message was that the only person I could change was myself. Whenever I brought up an issue with someone else, they held the mirror up to me. Ouch- but I stuck with it. I figured I would give these people a chance after all, my way wasn't working so why not try what they said? I could always go back to doing things my way if I wanted to. Some of what they said to me was similar to the responses you have had on this thread after you got upset with your son and his fiancee.

In time, and with practice, I began to see the results of learning this new way to deal with the dysfunctional people in my life. It wasn't being a doormat but learning to hold boundaries and respond from a place of calm rather than resentment and anger. It wasn't that I didn't feel resentment and anger, but I learned ways to deal with my feelings better. I didn't get the chance to interact with my father with these new behaviors but I still am in contact with my mother. Yes, she is still dysfunctional and I have a difficult time in her presence- I fully admit that, but our relationship is much better than it ever was now that I know how to best interact with her, while still having my boundaries.

When I think of the people who helped me to do this, it isn't not feeling supported. I realized they cared enough about me to lead me to make positive changes- even if it made me feel uncomfortable. Had they consoled me- supported my point of view, I would not have ever seen the ways I could change and nothing would have changed. My mother is not going to change. I realize it was a form of tough love, but it was love in the sense that they didn't leave me stuck in my feelings of being wronged. Responding to others from this place is not very effective.

I know how you are feeling because I felt that way too. However ,I hope that one day you will see the different kind of support in these responses- from people who have been in your shoes interacting with a BPD person. Sometimes it isn't possible to see our part in things. For me, the drama triangle was "normal" - I grew up with it and it felt normal- until someone pointed it out to me. I may have been a victim of abuse from my mother but they would not let me stay in that feeling for long as it was disempowering.