Am I being a little too vindictive to get back at her?

[madeline7]

Good morning,

I have been working hard these past 2 years since the passing of my Dad, grieving and facing head on the repercussions of being "left" with an uBPD elderly Mom. My "lesson" this past month has resulted from becoming aware of what I now know to be parentification and emotional role reversal. I was working hard to carefully validate my Mom's feelings, yet set healthy boundaries. But I just don't want to exert that much effort any more. I became a first time grand mother this past week (so exciting), yet this week continues to be all about her. So as I was sitting with her last night, trying my best to supportive, talking about her needs (and not her great grand child), I became a little too vindictive for my taste, and think I probably did it to make her suffer. I DO NOT want to be like that. I DO NOT want to be like her. I always prided myself for being a positive and happy person like my Dad was before he was poisoned by her toxicity. I am having very dark thoughts concerning her and everything she has done to me and my FOO. I no longer have a relationship with one sibling which is likely due to her manipulations. I initially thought my Dad's passing gave me a sense of liberation to set those boundaries with my Mom, and yesterday the liberation went too far, I am not ashamed of myself, but not happy with who I am around her and my FOO. This would be a very bad time to go NC, with her being eldery and a new grandchild, but I am starting to lose my footing around her. This should be the happiest time of my life, and she just sucks the joy out of everything

[once removed]

hey madeline7 

what happened?

[Pina colada]

Without knowing the story, I can tell you I have had vindictive feelings toward BPD/NPD sister whom abused me as a child and to this day is on an incessant smear campaign against me (as she always must target someone) with her venom.  Please share the story.  Your feelings and actions are probably "normal"... .

[madeline7]

A little more info. I have 2 siblings, and although we were not super close, we had a good relationship, and supported one another thru the challenges of sharing an uBPDm. Around the time that my Dad passed a few years ago, one sibling starting talking with me less and less and after about 1 year stopped entirely. We are civil when in the presence of each other, but the relationship is almost non existent. After being excluded in 2 events last year by that sibling, I attempted to work things out with her. Initially she did not return my calls but finally she did, I calmly asked why she was not talking to me, and said that I was open to working things out, that we were sisters, blah blah... .She just said NO, no explanation as to why she was no longer talking to me. I honestly have no idea, and no one else in the family has no idea either regarding what happened or why she won't talk to me. So after I reached out to her, extended the olive branch, I decided I was done. I continue to be civil, but I am detaching from the family. My Mom wants peace now that my Dad is gone, and she is elderly and widowed. She even asked me to put my hurt feelings aside for her sake. And I told her I would not do that. I told her in a way that was not entirely kind, I told her how I was detaching from the family, I did some name calling about my sibling knowing it would cause her pain. I left thinking that if I have to suffer through this, then I will make sure she has to suffer. No more coddling her entirely, I would sneak in an aggression or 2. The most important thing to know is that I became a grand parent for the first time this week, and yet she continues (or I allow her to get to me)to drain the joy out of every encounter I have with her.

[Pina colada]

madeline7 thank you for sharing the story.  The problem is our relatives with BPD/NPD don't think they have a problem, they do.  They don't think the way we do so when we try to find answers as to why, in your case you were cut off without explanation we are left baffled, upset, no closure, no resolution.  Oh have I lived through this with my much older sister.  She cut me off in December, I won't bore you with detail here, but initially shocked, it is the best thing she could have done!  For you, it is hard as your mother wants peace.  My dad passed in August and I went through the same.  My dad reached out to me and my brother, to make peace with BPD sister because he knew how irrational she is.  Unfortunately I feel it must be common for family members to seek the peace with the rational folks... .I had many talks with dad and he knew something wasn't right with her and in the end left me alone.  I am happy to PM with you if you like!  Wish you all the best of luck with a challenging situation.  Read and therapy helps!  Congratulations on your new grand baby!  That is so wonderful!  Don't give your sister the power to spoil such a joyous event.  You can't change the way a disordered thinks, but, you can change how you choose to deal with it!

[madeline7]

Thank you Pina Colada for your reply. But I need to clarify that my Mom is the one with long standing BPD, and my sisters and I had a fairly good relationship with much support over the years. My sister who has cut me off is NOT the BPD family member. So now I am dealing with a BPD elderly parent AND a sister who won't have a relationship with me. I don't think she has BPD, just think the family dynamics are so dysfunctional that things are changing since the passing of my Dad who was the enabler. I always knew his passing would change things, but never once thought that it would look like this. The other sister doesn't want to be in the middle, so she stays neutral, meaning she allows my other sister to leave me out which makes her an enabler. I see what's happening, but it is a difficult choice to distance oneself from the entire FOO, especially when I have a new grandbaby and would like my kids to have a sense of family.

[Harri]

Hi Madeline.  Congrats on your grand-baby!  That is wonderful news.  I am sorry that circumstances make it difficult to share the joy with the rest of your family however.  Many people struggle with this aspect of having a mentally disordered family member.  Wanting a sense of family is perfectly normal and healthy, but what to do when the family dynamics are anything but healthy?  I don't know to be honest but several people here are in the same boat of trying to figure things out.  You are not alone as unfortunately this happens all too frequently.

I am having very dark thoughts concerning her and everything she has done to me and my FOO.

It is good that you are sharing this.  Not only does it help others who may be reluctant to share but it is also a relief for you and a way to shed light on some difficult thoughts and feelings.  I think this is to be expected or at least not unheard of.  I know I had a hard time after discovering BPD and realizing all of the lies and manipulations that governed my choices all of my life.  The anger and resentment, even rage, was hard to come to terms with and to learn to control.  I wasn't always able to do so.  I think though that having these feelings is natural and even healthy given the reality and the depth of the hurt and abuse.  Granted they are not the more socially accepted responses and feelings but they are genuine, and besides, our situations were/ are anything but 'socially acceptable' though they are often ignored or dismissed.  It is easy to label our feelings as bad and try to push them away, but often that is only going to make things worse.  I don't mean to release them at will but definitely acknowledge that you have them, like you are doing in this thread, and allow yourself to feel them without judgement.  They are not bad feelings, they just are.  As I'm sure you know it is not the feeling that is the problem, it is what we do with them.

I initially thought my Dad's passing gave me a sense of liberation to set those boundaries with my Mom, and yesterday the liberation went too far, I am not ashamed of myself, but not happy with who I am around her and my FOO.

Recognizing that this is a reality, knowing that sometimes you can say mean things and express anger in unhealthy ways is good.  I too had a problem with this after I first moved out and started using boundaries and saying no.  I'm not proud of it either, but it happened.  All that anger and pain was and still is a part of me.  Learning about BPD, mental illness, recognizing all the damage done and the extent of the damage, it all came pouring out.  Like anything else, I was ill equipped to deal with it and full of judgement of myself and my mother.  It took time and some distance.  Limited contact is what I chose and I only interacted with her when I was feeling strong and steady and even then I would lose my temper.  I yelled, I walked out in anger, said things that were anything but kind, I did a lot of things I would do differently today... .with a whole lot of time and distance and learning in between.  I also said and did things in anger that I would **not** go back and change. 

Madeline, I think I understand some of what you are going through.  It is hard.  It is also hard when the rest of the family is affected, or join in, or try to get you to go back to the same old role you always had.  Everyone is affected when one person changes.  The hardest thing for me was accepting that my brother and father had the right to come to their own conclusions and make their own decisions based on what they knew and what they thought was right.  It hurt to see my brother choose my mother and support her and believe all the lies and stories about me.  It hurt to see my father trying to play both sides just to stay out of the line of fire.  I had to let them be who they were and I had to remember where I began and ended in relation to them.  I had to give them the freedom to be who they were.

[hellebore1]

I'm so sorry.  I lost years of a good relationship with my mother, who was totally enmeshed with my BPD half brother.  She finally got counseling and a much better handle on the situation.  I understand you'd be angry with your neutral sister who allows your other sister to cut you out, but I wonder if eventually she may help you... .if only relaying information about you in passing that mentions you're doing well and enjoying life.  Unfortunately if you really don't know why your other sister cut you off, you probably have limited options.

I think I'd focus on Neutral Sister and have as good of a relationship with her as you can, trying to leave NC sister out of the conversation.  Not a perfect solution but perhaps a workable one.

In terms of your mom, I'd think seriously about hiring someone to help care for her if you don't have anyone so you can spend more time with your grandchild and less on someone who abuses you and whose behavior you have limited power to affect.

Hang in there. 

[madeline7]

I agree that outside help is needed, and whenever there is a crisis my Mom appears receptive at first, then says I have 3 daughters, I shouldn't have to hire help. The best way to describe her is a help seeking rejecter. Since my sisters and I are not on the same page, it is difficult to set things up, and I am not the child with the power to arrange things financially speaking. So I have limited options at best. Time to take a deep breath, and breathe in that sweet smell of newborn!

[hellebore1]

I agree that outside help is needed, and whenever there is a crisis my Mom appears receptive at first, then says I have 3 daughters, I shouldn't have to hire help. The best way to describe her is a help seeking rejecter. Since my sisters and I are not on the same page, it is difficult to set things up, and I am not the child with the power to arrange things financially speaking. So I have limited options at best. Time to take a deep breath, and breathe in that sweet smell of newborn!

IMO this actually gives you the perfect out, psychologically speaking.  Since you can't control who gets hired, whomever has the control is responsible for who takes care of your mom.  In the sense that it doesn't have to be you.

As far as your mom's attitude, remember to maintain healthy detachment.  She isn't well.  You're being asked to contribute your time, mental energy and resources, this means you get to control how much of each you're willing to give.

I'm guessing NC sister controls the money.  Wonder what she'd do if you started to stay away more and allow her to deal with the problem.

[Notwendy]

Hi Madeline-

Congratulations on the new grand baby!

I can relate to your feelings about the rift in the family after your father's passing. My BPD mother was angry at me and actually told some of her FOO not to speak to me. What shocked me was that they listened to her. They were not supposed to tell me she told them not to speak to me but one of them must have felt bad and so he told me- and then basically said not to contact him about it again.

It was a loss at the time. I was really hurt. How could these people who have known me since I was a baby just discard that whole relationship? But through a larger lens, I realized that family dysfunction involves more than just the person with BPD. This is the family my mother came from and so if there were issues in my immediate family- those issues could be there in the extended family.

I detached from them. I have to admit though not entirely- I do feel a sense of sadness but it isn't as intense.

Eventually BPD mother wanted us all to be nice and forget the whole thing. One of them reached out to me- I suspect at her request to try to patch things up. I am cautiously cordial. His wife won't speak to me though. As much as I want to know why they did this, and what happened, I probably won't get to know as there are so many layers of ":)on't tell so and so" I am not sure I could believe it if I did.

Madeline- It isn't you. It's what dysfunctional people do. I don't know what is going on with your sister, and you may not know either. I realized it was best to focus on the people in my life who I care about and who care about me- and I hope you can as well and enjoy that grand baby!

As to feeling vindictive. I try to stay aware of the line between holding my boundary and being hurtful. If my mother isn't happy about a boundary - this does not mean I am being hurtful. I also have to watch the line between being kind and being co-dependent/enabling. I don't have mean intentions towards my mother and do not attempt to be hurtful, but she also isn't always happy when I have my own boundaries.

I am not her caretaker, and I don't enlist my children to do that.  If things were different, I would spend more time helping my elderly mother- but the reality is, when I do attempt to help, it is difficult, she is cruel and manipulative. She also is manipulative with her helpers at times, but they are professionals. They know how to handle it.  It is better for both of us if I can just visit.

[madeline7]

It is the neutral sister who controls the money, she understands the need for outside help but doesn't act on it. She travels a lot, then the responsibility falls on the NC sister who is not as involved and me. As I type this out, I see how dysfunctional the entire family system is. I know the only way is for me to set more rigid boundaries, then the BPD goes into a rage and I do end of feeling guilty and drained. The cycle repeats. My first post here was I want to get off of the merry go round, or something like that, and I feel stuck on this very scary ride

[hellebore1]

Keep posting here.  I find posting your story can be really cathartic - click my username to read mine.  I think this is the first time I've told it in its entirety in my whole life, I'm so used to other people not believing me when I'd describe my uBPD half bro's behavior and my mom's enabling.  (Surely I must be exaggerating or lying.)

Sounds like you need to have a long talk with neutral sister.  Say the way things are isn't working, you'll visit X times per week *only* starting on X date.  use short words and phrases and don't JADE.  Keep us posted. 

[madeline7]

So I had a conversation with neutral sister, and she is either enabling or truly feels on her own that I am not acting in a caring way towards my Mom. So to add to the BPDM and NC sister, I now feel I must limit my contact with neutral sister, who will now be known as LC sister. Heavy sigh. But on a positive note, I am getting daily updates on my new grand baby and get to see him next Monday! I got to see him 4 times in his first week, and I am so in love with this sweet baby. I know I have issues stemming from my family dynamics, but can now see that I did not perpetuate the dysfunction, raising a wonderful daughter who will raise a wonderful son.

[hellebore1]

So good to hear things are good with your own nuclear family.

You don't mention whether you're in therapy - I'd really recommend it.  Again, my experience with multiple people dealing with BPD is that the FOG can really increase as people call each other to reinforce it.  You may need to some help to reinforce your own sense of reality. Hang in there!

[madeline7]

I did have counseling shortly after my Dad passed. I also saw a separate T for grief counseling. Right now I am feeling stable, just disappointed in the FOO members who continue to enable uBPDm and the effect it is having on their relationship with me. I know that I will learn to accept this, as I am moving towards acceptance of having an emotionally unstable uBPDm. I find the support and information on this board invaluable and so glad I found this place to be myself, to learn and hopefully help others with my stories and support.

[Notwendy]

Madeline- there are several relatives on my BPD mother's side who continue to enable her and believe what she tells them about me and maintain that I am being a bad daughter.

Despite them witnessing some of her behaviors, they insist she is just wonderful.

It astounds me that these grown adults continue to believe her and enable her.

Families operate on a system. For some reason, they feel a need to do this. I can't explain it, but it is what it is.

If I were to speak to them about the situation it would present a bind to them- her word or mine. Both can't be true. I have decided that if they really wanted to know my side of things, then they can ask me. So far they haven't and I don't think it is possible to change their minds- nor am I certain I want to. They are my mother's circle and I'm OK to not be in her circle  of people close to her.

I did grieve the loss of family I thought were my family too. But if being accepted as family means enabling my mother, I don't think I want to do that.

[Blueskyday]

The one thing I take from our experiences is there is a huge grief we feel. I could be wrong but when the drama my DD creates dies down I for one feel bereft.

Could it be that your desire to have your Mother suffer is fuelled by grief? Maybe the anger stage? You have lost your Father, lost your sibling. Your wonderful news and emotions are tinged by the fact that this is not a healthy family the child is being born into. You lose your Mother regularly by the sound of things.

Its so difficult to wade  through alone through the anger and sadness we feel at this unjust situation. It is unjust and you have a right to feel vindictive.

The fact that you have outed yourself and find this distasteful suggests to me that you are a loving and warm human being. We all have a limit

My advice is back off a little. NC is playing into the drama... Playing into the black and whiteness of BPD... Dont be hooked back in but back off gently and enjoy this wonderful new baby.

Remember you can see your errors and when you fall short of your moral compass. IMHO, that shows that you are different to your Mother and deserved more.

People who love us don't need us to explain ourselves and those who do don't really love us the way we imagine. Feel this sadness for your sibling and put it in a box and put it away if you can.

My DD has lacerated my character for 18yrs so I do empathise. Now my Grandbaby is being subtly poisoned against me. Its a painful helpless experience

[once removed]

My advice is back off a little. NC is playing into the drama... Playing into the black and whiteness of BPD... Dont be hooked back in but back off gently and enjoy this wonderful new baby.

great point, Blueskyday.

So to add to the BPDM and NC sister, I now feel I must limit my contact with neutral sister, who will now be known as LC sister.

there are other ways. you have a real disagreement with your family members. if we cut everyone out we disagree with, who are we left with?

Families operate on a system.

and in conflict, most go back to their natural role, and it perpetuates the cycle of conflict, and/or things come to a head and the family disconnects. its not always fair, but often breaking this cycle starts with us.

with that in mind, where do you see yourself here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[madeline7]

I appreciate the words of support and feel for those who share in this most challenging of situations. When the need arises for me to post, I find I approach my issue with a sense of helplessness, but through the thoughtful and insightful words of this BPD family, I usually take away a newfound sense of hope and understanding. Thank you one and all!

[madeline7]

So in terms of the drama triangle, I used to feel like the rescuer, now I think I am perceived as the perpetrator, and at times I now feel like the victim. How can it be that I own the triangle? This is seriously one damaged family.

[once removed]

This is seriously one damaged family.

hey, we all have difficulties with our families, some more, some less, and every family has its share of dysfunction, especially in trying times. dont beat yourself up 

like Notwendy said, families operate on systems. if you read up on bowens family systems theory (https://thebowencenter.org/theory/), it can get pretty mind blowing.

its good that you can see this (where you fit in). and yes, we can switch roles on the triangle, and at times where we perceive ourselves or others to be can even be misleading. once we can see this (as close to objectively as possible, which is hard), we can take steps to move to the Winner Triangle (bottom of the article).

so whats next?

[madeline7]

Excellent reading suggestion once removed and great insights by not Wendy and everyone else. Gaining more knowledge helps me to understand where I fit in, and I think I turned out pretty good considering the family system in place now and when I grew up. Perhaps it's time to re visit counseling, I never did find the right T, but can continue to explore. I will also be more mindful of my responses to my family members, and to pause for a second in order to stay focused and positive and to avoid the drama.