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Experts share their discoveries [video]
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Caretaking - What is it all about?
Margalis Fjelstad, PhD
Blame - why we do it?
Brené Brown, PhD
Family dynamics matter.
Alan Fruzzetti, PhD
A perspective on BPD
Ivan Spielberg, PhD
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Author Topic: 25 years, just found out what's up Complication: Catholic  (Read 1279 times)
BetterLanes
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« on: June 04, 2018, 03:24:55 AM »

Hi everyone. I met my husband at age 18 and we married a few years later in the Catholic church. One child now about to finish primary school. A friend who is studying mental health posted on FB the book "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me". I read the reviews and they said if you recognised your relationship in the title you should probably read the book. So I did this last week. I actually first read "Stop Caretaking" by Margalis Fjelstad and it completely fitted with the issues in our marriage and what I've been doing as a caretaker to try to manage them. (I also read Walking on Eggshells and all the articles off this site.) I had no idea this was a thing before, but it entirely makes sense of the situation.

I am well aware that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I have learned from my reading that speaking to my husband would not be the right thing to do. Which of these other potentially useful people would you suggest that I do and don't talk to at this stage?

- The friend mentioned above who has been studying mental health
- Another mental health professional
- Our parish priest
- Another priest I know who has been studying canon law relating to marriage
- My manager at work (who has a good awareness of mental health issues)
- A member of my family (one of whom may have BPD or similar, judging from the books saying this is a likely background for a caretaker)
- A member of his family (I am pretty sure which second degree relative or even two had BPD there)
- A member of the local prayer group that I'm a part of (we have a remit to pray for issues not individuals, hence never needing to discuss my problems there!)
- A member of staff at the school my child is about to finish
- My child
- Anyone else you can suggest not mentioned above

I have had two individual phone counselling sessions with Relate, and have been waiting 6 months for an individual appointment with Catholic Marriage Care which has not been offered yet.

All advice and suggestions very welcome, especially from anyone in a similar situation.

 
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2018, 10:20:33 AM »

Hey HH, Welcome!  I suggest speaking with a close friend who you trust, because I think it's helpful to reach out to someone outside the family system.  Of course a T is also a good option.  You probably know already that some you listed are not the best candidates, such as: parish priest; work manager; member of H's family; staff member at your child's school; and lastly, your H.

On some gut level I suspect you know who you can trust for purposes of discussing your situation.  I find it extremely helpful to get some of these issues out of the dark and into the clear light of day, where the healing can begin.

Let us know what you decide.

LuckyJim

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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2018, 10:27:55 AM »

Hi HH . . .I also am Catholic and also didn't understand what was going on until 25 years into the relationship. My situation is with a high functioning Hermit type undiagnosed person with BPD. I am not a mental health professional, so maybe I am wrong in that assessment, but everything fits the descriptions in the books, and the techniques described on this website have been so helpful, that it is uncanny.

Here's my reaction to your list:

 -The friend mentioned above who has been studying mental health
              It's always good to have someone to talk to but be careful. Can you trust this person to keep things confidential? Will you
               husband accuse you of going behind is back or cheating?.  

- Another mental health professional
               I think that's always a good idea but make sure they have expertise in personality disorders.

- Our parish priest
               He's bound by confidentiality, so that is good. Many priests are well educated in mental health, many are not. Try to get
               some sense of his background. Just like with mental health professionals, you have to get the right one. Parish priests
               can range from highly educated and wise to pretty ignorant. What's your sense on this one. At the very least,  
               he may be able to offer some help on the spiritual side of things.
            
- Another priest I know who has been studying canon law relating to marriage

               Same as above. Are you thinking about an annulment? He could help on that. Be very careful before you take steps in
               that direction as I believe it could trigger your husband.

- My manager at work (who has a good awareness of mental health issues)

                My gut reaction is no, unless maybe if you need to explain how hour work is impacted by this.
                Work and personal issues are a bad mix no matter how nice/aware your manager is.

- A member of my family (one of whom may have BPD or similar, judging from the books saying this is a likely background for a caretaker)

                  My gut reaction is if they also have BPD you can't be confident that they won't take offense or say things to the H.
                   Even  if they don't have BPD, it's a minefield.  I'd be real careful there. Your H may resent you are talking to everyone
                   but him, even if you can't talk to him.

- A member of his family (I am pretty sure which second degree relative or even two had BPD there)
                   I think that's going to come across like your ganging up on him or trying to win allies in his family.
                    My gut reaction is no.

- A member of the local prayer group that I'm a part of (we have a remit to pray for issues not individuals, hence never needing to discuss my problems there!)
              
                   I believe in the power of prayer. I don't know how or why, as I think we should opt for science first, but I believe there is a spiritual aspect to healing for all involved. I think it best if you keep things general and discrete with the prayer group. You can go into more detail with a priest who is bound by confidentiality.

- A member of staff at the school my child is about to finish

     Why? If the child is about to finish my reaction is just move on.

- My child

  The consensus on this is usually  no. It may appear like you are triangulating against the H. On the other hand the child may be confused about what is going on and you want to comfort him/her, so I know it can be tempting.  It is a difficult issue that is discussed here a lot. How old is the child? You need professional guidance on this issue most especially.

- Anyone else you can suggest not mentioned above

    Not off the top of my head. Just keep checking these boards. There are much more informed people here who can help you out. I am fairly new to this too, so don't rely on what I have to say. Wait for the others. I  just wanted to add my two cents because of the Catholic angle. In some posts I have seen that people may ask or wonder "Why don't you leave?" But, for many of us with religious backgrounds of all kinds, that is not an option, or is an option of absolute last resort only, so we do our best to work things out within the marriage as best we can.   Prayer does help. Good luck and God Bless.
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2018, 07:45:19 PM »

Hello HH.

Welcome to the world of freedom! I've been in a relationship for 30+ years (been married for 29). Just figured out which way is up. I have one close friend from my Torah fellowship who has helped me tremendously because she went through a few NPD relationships. Also, from there a couple of Youtube channels that have helped immensely: The Little Shaman Healing and From Surviving to Thriving. Listen to everything they've posted.

I would generally stay away away from those heavily involved with religion. There is so much baggage and bias within the various religious subcultures that prevents them from truly understanding the disease or solution. The biggest problem I have with religious circles is that my wife believes that we need "marriage counseling." In other words, I'm not making her happy, therefore it is my responsibility to fix the emotional problems in her life so she will be "happy."  THAT is a completely dead end street with Narcissistic BPD types. Moreover, when religious people hear this, they think, "Oh, this wife loves her husband and wants to fix the problems in their marriage." But the problem isn't the marriage. The problem is her sickness.

Also, don't talk to your children. I've tried that. They go straight to the other parent. Then they will accuse you of attempted to shame, discredit, or malign them.

If you have a close friend that isn't friends with your husband, and she/he is the type to research the illness and offer you encouragement, rely on that friend. Otherwise, find a good psychologist. Stay away from "Biblical Counselors." They haven't had the training in psychological disorder diagnosis. I'm speaking from experience.

Hope this helps.

PB
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BetterLanes
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2018, 03:23:09 AM »

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies. I didn't want to be more specific about the people and situations involved for identifiability. The moderator changed my name as it looked too identifiable, and he was right.

My child has anxiety and the school are aware of that fact. She has also recently developed intermittent physical symptoms with no obvious physical explanation which I know could be an outworking of anxiety. So far I have been covering because I didn't know there was an identifiable issue going on so assumed that she would just be removed by social services if I indicated any kind of dysfunction in the household. This is why I'm quite twitchy now to talk to some people so it is out there and not just in my head and I can find out if it's a real thing.

Yesterday I requested conversations with the other priest and with the friend studying mental health (who is female), without stating the topic. Neither of these are likely to happen until next week.

I did also, and having not at that time read your replies, panic and talk with the one person who you all said not to which was my manager. He actually turns out to have had a BP in his life in the past. I was quite keen to do that because I can only safely be active on here and hold phone or face to face conversations with people IRL in work hours. He suggested I contacted the Employee Assistance Program and said they got him an appointment with a psychologist within a week. So I have emailed them with that request (no reply yet).

I need to work now but I'd love to spend some more time later on discussing the specifics of your replies. Thank you all again.

BL Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2018, 05:22:10 AM »

Hey BetterLanes,

Your mention of relate suggests that you're in the UK somewhere... .just trying to get a picture of your situation. My uBPDw and I used Relate in 2003, my experience was similar to that of the village cake stall run by a lot of old ladies. It was great and all and certainly a peaceful environment where we as a couple felt like we couldn't argue (because it felt like our Grandmother was in the room). They were pretty expensive as well and definitely comparable to private T's. My advice would be to see a good well recommended private T individually. Do not rush into couples counselling until you have a very clear, well evidenced picture of your reality and your relationships current and historical reality. My gut feeling is to separate spirituality from psychology, although they are linked because they invoke emotions and feelings, mixing the 2 means you cannot focus on one or the other. As an individual you also run a greater risk of moving towards spiritual bypassing rather than confronting any issues about your own behavior you may need to tackle to better yourself for continuing the marriage, or not.

From a BPD or emotional wound perspective this is how I see the actions of spirituality vs psychology... .   we all have an emotional bucket inside us, for a healthy individual this is filled with the love of our parents, it's like the never ending cryptonite we can turn to in tough times, it burns like a fire inside us allowing us self love, confidence and resilience. An emotionally wounded person has a hole in their bucket, they don't have the cryptonite so are on a constant search to get the love that they need to fill their emotional bucket, to rid themselves of their emptiness. God provides a never ending supply of love to fill the emotional bucket. His love never ceases and isn't dependent on our behaviour, but you still have the holes in the bucket. A T will help you plug the holes in your bucket by dealing with issues, they may want to run the bucket dry to allow the holes to be covered well... .then they will help YOU fill the bucket yourself with your own cryptonite, making you strong and powerful.

Regarding the people you should speak to, I have had some incredibly painful experiences with regards to speaking to people about the problems I have with my W and my belief she suffers from childhood trauma and BPD traits. I am a talker, I like to share, often inappropriately and insensitively. I became so excited and desperate for people to see and believe my narrative I shared with anyone who'd listen. I soon gathered that people not only thought I was talking about unicorns, but they also thought I was nasty, unkind and was an utter lunatic for thinking my W had any issues at all. From their perspective she was a lovely woman, courageous and highly competent... .if only they knew the mask melted when the front door closed. I'll run down the list:

- The friend mentioned above who has been studying mental health - when you say study, is that armchair style or accredited. Armchair style learning has a tendency to focus on the dramatic side of BPD and lacks deep loving empathy one might approach your H's issues with. Armchair will often start to mind read and start to over interpret your H's intentions and behaviours rather than taking a neutral stance. Be very careful and don't become their pet hobby. My W has a friend who is Armchair and she is causing A LOT of problems labeling me NPD, coercive controller, abusive, emotional abuser etc etc
- Another mental health professional - They need to have experience with BPD and best if they are out of your circle of friends, ideally they need to be in a position to CHALLENGE YOU on your baggage... .you've been in this for a good few years now... .you have some baggage.
- Our parish priest - Maybe use your priest as a source of support and prayer. Pray for guidance, for inner peace, for love and compassion for your husband. Use the Church as a value guide of how to treat your husband in the face of his disorder. As above, don't use the Preist to help you fix your love bucket.
- Another priest I know who has been studying canon law relating to marriage - if this is a direction you want to go down.
- My manager at work (who has a good awareness of mental health issues) - I have found my work colleagues a great resource, they are typically your friends only and a good safe zone. Also, they are a good daily check that you are safe and well.
- A member of my family (one of whom may have BPD or similar, judging from the books saying this is a likely background for a caretaker) - very much depends on how self aware they are and whether they have had therapy. I have a friend who has BPD, her advice on dealing with my W is in essence "let her run you over, we can do anything about our behaviour", which is exactly what someone with BPD might like, but may not be what they need. Taking advice from someone with BPD is helpful to gain insight and empathy, but the advice with regards to action should/could require a double take as to whether it promotes healthy behaviour of enables. If you ask a drug addict if drugs should be legal and free... .guess what the answer is likely to be.
- A member of his family (I am pretty sure which second degree relative or even two had BPD there) - Leave his family alone or at least approach with caution. A topic discussed in "Toxic Parents" and one that I have seen in action in my W's FOO... .they ring round and defend. The old saying that blood is thicker than water is very true. Regardless of whether or not each family member shows disdain for each other in open court, they will likely rally round to defend if an outside is seen to attack the precarious family balance.
- A member of the local prayer group that I'm a part of (we have a remit to pray for issues not individuals, hence never needing to discuss my problems there!) - prayer triplets can be very good sources of emotionally support and encouragement. The sense of isolation can be enormous especially when you have a sense that people 'don't get it'. You don't necessarily have to be specific to commit things to God in prayer. Vagueness may be appropriate especially if your H is a church goer as well.
- A member of staff at the school my child is about to finish - Teachers have mandatory reporting requirements if they believe a child is at risk. I don't have any experience here so will reserve comment.
- My child - I believe there are many way that you can communicate with your child about BPD without actually saying BPD. From a child's perspective love you/hate you behaviour can be very confusing. They don't necessarily understand their own emotional dysregulations let alone an adult. From what I have read children can deal with cause and effect situations such that they can learn to adapt the cause to change the effect. With a BPD parent often the cause has no relation to the effect and nothing to do with them, hence "why is Daddy shouting at me for asking him when dinner is?". Daddy was stressed because the herd of unicorns on the front lawn were eating the flowers. We and your T can look into way you can discuss general emotions with your child to heighten their emotional intelligence. 
- Anyone else you can suggest not mentioned above - your family here 
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BetterLanes
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2018, 07:59:32 AM »

Thanks for another helpful response Enabler! I didn't know what spiritual bypassing was, so I looked it up, and haha, yes, I do that all the time. That feels so true about God and the bucket as well. I get a lot of blessings.

I asked my manager to watch for any unexplained deviations from my normal work presence and set up direct texting with him.

The friend studying mental health was reading the book for a degree she just completed, is a professional mental health nurse working in some kind of prison environment, and is our next door neighbor. I would trust her to judge which one of us has a mental health issue, or indeed both, and suggest appropriate actions in accordance with professional guidelines. We couldn't undo that conversation, though. If that now seems to you all like a really bad idea, you have about 24 hours in which to warn me off, or it will probably happen.

BL.
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2018, 08:50:09 AM »

The friend studying mental health was reading the book for a degree she just completed, is a professional mental health nurse working in some kind of prison environment, and is our next door neighbor. I would trust her to judge which one of us has a mental health issue, or indeed both, and suggest appropriate actions in accordance with professional guidelines.

Prison is a very good proving ground for the study of BPD. If you think about the type of clientele you get in a prison, it tends to have a higher than average population of pwBPD. Emotional dysregulation is clearly rife as is self harm and suicide. The inmates are typically not there because they were capable of thinking the consequences of their actions through on the whole. My W interestingly is training to be a pastoral assistant in a local woman's prison, although conversations are very very scarce between us, she tells me about visiting a lot of women who are suicidal, regularly self harm and whom come from very distressing backgrounds. I'm alarmed that she doesn't see any comparables but then again that's the nature of the beast.

I do think it's important for you to ensure that this person understands you want to control your situation and you are not looking for her to take matters into her own hands. She is not in a prison where she might be required to do so. I would not necessarily look to this person to make some kind of judgement on your H, how useful is that? You know what you experience and no one else needs to validate that for you. You can however use her experience in dealing with mentally ill people to help ground yourself in a firmer, safer reality. She may have some additional tools, you can learn how to validate his emotions and soothe situations. Having a safety net next door is also excellent.

We do not know much about your H's behaviours. What most concerns you at the moment? Are you safe?
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2018, 12:23:17 PM »

Manager is also a friend.  If you trust this person, then go with your gut, so to speak.  Mine, whom I've known for 25 years (two different companies) was a great support. 

I agree with the others about your child.  Only discuss issues relating to your kid, not your issues as such.  Enabler gives good advice in Reply 5.

What kinds of communication tools have worked and have not worked and what is your biggest struggle with your husband? If you haven't seen them, take a look at the resources in the right sidebar ---->
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BetterLanes
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2018, 03:17:33 AM »

Thanks Enabler and Turkish. Sorry to leave that question about behaviors and safety as a cliffhanger! I can't post without risk after about 3pm when my child returns from school. Also, I had to think really hard about that question. I am very used to denying the BP behaviors and minimizing my perception of their effects. I am physically safe, though I understand there is a possibility of that changing if I make serious changes in the status quo.

The behaviors I have difficulty with myself include his anger, negativity, persistent low mood, anxiety, clinginess, worst-case scenario thinking, public anger and walk-outs, immature conversation and baby-talk (is that a co-morbidity of some sort?) to which I am required to respond, repetitive criticism and blaming of me. I am unfree to express my emotions or my preferences in areas such as finance and sexual behavior and contact. I have to lie a lot. For a concrete (although probably unusual) example, a recent development is that he now requires me to drive although I have a driving phobia (that's a real thing, you can buy books about it and everything). He agreed that I did not have to drive about 15 years ago, and I valued that a lot. Driving was what made me lose my fear of death because I hated doing it so much. Currently the requirement is more or less limited to me driving to church, also a few other local events that he knows I am keen to go to (like The Last Jedi movie. I booked Solo in a city centre cinema!). His stated reason for this is that he fears he will be ill in hospital and I will not visit him often enough if I do not drive. It's not for my benefit.

I am experiencing a serious divergence between my public persona, my home life, and my thought life which does not feel sustainable over the long term. Although all the other problems in my life have been fixed, I still don't have hope for the future or enjoyment of activities I previously liked, and I have been actively craving death. Note that isn't suicidal ideation, because although I believe suicides incapacitated in some way by mental illness can get into heaven, I wouldn't take a chance on that for myself. My experience in difficult life situations has always been that if I acknowledge them, take some reasonable action step(s), and wait beyond what I think I can tolerate, God provides a really good solution or breakthrough that I wouldn't have known about or come up with by myself. I believe this is also what is happening here.

I am also concerned about the effects of the behaviors on my daughter. She is learning this pattern of relationship and I worry that she will end up in a similar situation unless it is explicitly identified as the issue I think it is. She has anxiety as mentioned above and struggles to make and maintain friendships. With him, she tends to talk quite cautiously and pleasantly. With me, she tends to spill it all out, expressing anger, disobedience, contradiction, worry, demands, bossiness, and criticism and blame. I hear the words he uses to me coming back out of her mouth. This does not appear healthy. I may be able to help her more now I understand what I think is going on, but it would not be a step change unless it is acknowledged explicitly. I also cannot visualise a way in which we would deal with any (undoubtedly upcoming) teenage crisis as a family, as we do not have any adult communication tools. If I express a serious issue or need, the typical response from my husband is to become angry, criticize me about some peripherally related existing issues, and then walk out of the house for an hour or two. After a few days I might be able to say the next sentence. I believe the first serious teenage crisis might (given what I think I know now) initiate an immediate family split anyway.

The reason why I am now quite so hungry for information and breakthroughs is that it is a perfect window of opportunity for discussing or initiating major life changes. It's God's timing. I am about to complete a 2-year cycle of a Bible story ministry at my daughter's existing school (working with members of the prayer group mentioned above). I need to make a decision this summer as to whether to sign up for another 2 years or find someone else to replace me. The (volunteer) contract explicitly obliges me to be an upstanding and scandal-free member of the local community. I can see that this would not be compatible with initiating a messy marriage revision of terms or breakup with a person with mental health issues. So I need to decide a go or no-go on that. The other factor is that my daughter is finishing school and moving on to a new secondary school. She does not have any close friendships that she would miss. God has gifted me a new (1yr in) job that I could do from anywhere in the world with decent broadband, and support myself and her, if needed. So if it turns out I am not theologically obliged to maintain the marriage, it would be an ideal time if she and I wanted to "lift and shift" and do the re-architecture work afterwards.

So that's somewhat more detail about my situation. Thank you all for listening! Today I plan to phone the employee assistance programme and see if I can talk to a psychologist directly (I guess they don't think an email request has the same level of urgency).

PS PBailey, is "Surviving to Thriving" from Chuck Swindoll's ministry? I have a book with that title by him and love the ministry. I haven't tried any type of counselling or sought advice because I believed the relationship was too dysfunctional to make that possible, and also because of beliefs like it was my fault and other people couldn't help me. I'm glad now I skipped over that step as it does seem from what you all say here that it wouldn't have helped without an identification of the underlying issue.
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2018, 06:01:51 AM »

BetterLanes,

Can I summarise:

You -
- despondent
- feel trapped by scripture dictating that you are required to stay in the marriage
- feel death and heaven is preferable to life on earth, but not prepared to act on that in an active way
- you are not afraid as such but understand your H has potential to 'go there' maybe by accident due to his emotional volatility.
- key impacts of your H on your day to day life - conflict resolution, impact on your daughters behaviour, his control over your activities, public embarrassment, inconvenience of him walking off after conflicts at home and outside the home.
- You are financially/economically mobile and can support you and your daughter independently from your H
- We're unsure of your emotional feelings towards your H, do you love him (part or whole), want to love him, hate him or feel complete indifference towards him... .I understand this could be a tough question as it clashes directly with your religious beliefs. But being honest about your emotions is good... .your emotions exist regardless of whether you admit to them.

Daughter (not sure how old she is but guess Yr 6 so 10-11?)
- Physical signs of anxiety
- Different behaviours with you and your H - passive accommodation and adaptive behaviour to avoid conflict with him, aggressive and objectionable with you.
- Has minimal close friends / social attachments with her peers

Husband
- No physical abuse
- Mental / coercive control of your decisions
- Pessimism, black and white thinking
- Narcissism - you feel he wants you to be there for him but not necessarily in a loving way. You believe that if you love someone you want the best for them, it feels to you that he loves you for the things you do for him... .if that makes sense? He loves you for being an extension of him e.g. driving to come and see him.
- Inability to hold emotional discussions, disagreements and partake in conflict resolution.
- Halts resolution with smoke screens, passive aggressive behaviour and fleeing
- Any history of childhood trauma? 

My first suggestion would be to look at the following before making any decisions:

- Your relationship with your daughter - How does she see you and why does she interact with you in a different way to your H -  What might she be anxious about and how is she expressing that to you, how can you validate those anxieties such she can further express her anxiety

- Your relationship with your H - How can you stabilise the relationship such that you can get a steady footing to decide to either look to improve, or look to exit, to make considered rational choices based on your values - How to radically accept your current position, the nuances of your relationship that are different from others, how the outside world may not "get it" and how to deal with that isolation and empower yourself with knowledge - How to create a safety net should things change, create a decision tree with which to avoid slipping further and further into a situation that is not improving. - Realisation that you have choices, take yourself to 30,000ft and see your relationship for what it is, has been and where it could potentially go.

Does this seem like a good summary and plan of action?

Have you had a chance to read some of the info on the right hand side of this page?
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2018, 07:25:41 AM »


The... ."who should I talk to question" is a good one... .a very wise thing to consider carefully.

I'm going to stay very general here and suggest a "stool analogy"... a three legged stool to be specific.

Leg 1:  bpdfamily.  Anonymous... .you can vent... just say it... just ask it... .and you know you will get wide variety of experience in your responses here... .

Leg 2:  An in person mental health professional, preferably one that has experience with PDs.

Leg 3:  (and perhaps most importantly) a group of family and friends that is "normal".  Where you are deliberate to NOT talk about PD issues and marital problems.  Relationships where you have fun and build connections and "live" life without the impact of they dysfunction of a PD.

Make sense?

FF
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2018, 09:17:57 AM »

Thankyou Enabler and Formflier. I was about to reply when the EAP counsellor phoned. So I'll just scribble this before my daughter returns from school, then maybe won't be able to be around again till Friday or Monday. It is a good summary, Enabler. Yes my daughter is 11. I won't answer the tough question right now since it probably makes more sense if I add some more information that I didn't post yet.

Formflier, I was hoping to talk to a mental health professional via the EAP but she was "just" a counsellor. Though a very helpful one. She says she will send me details of some UK helplines including BPDWorld which offers more specific assessments. I don't think I can action anything else until Monday. I will try to spend some time with the sidebar resources which I can probably do discreetly.

Talk to you all again soon. I am loving being a part of this family Smiling (click to insert in post) Thank you. 
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2018, 10:34:32 AM »


To be specific... .this is YOUR stool I'm talking about.  The mental health professionals are for YOU... in your corner where you can lay our your feelings... talk in great detail and without restraint about the crazy in your life (you can talk about that here too)... .

Sure... you need professionals to help get you resources for your hubby, but I'm more interested in resources for you!

Starting with "just a counselor" is OK... .they are around the industry and know people and usually have a good grip on what they can and can't do... .so if you really need a PhD level really experienced psychologist... then... .perhaps they can get you there.

This is a journey... not a "one stop thing"

Looking forward to your next post!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2018, 11:43:25 AM »

Just to reinforce FF’s point about the mental health professional being for you.

Many if not most people find bpdfamily after some time dealing with a disordered, chaotic person. Their emotions and even sense of what is and isn’t true becomes jumbled and confused. The majority of people who have not experienced the overt or even subtle twisting of reality in a relationship with someone with a PD will not get it let alone rationalise it. A mental health professional should be equipped to help you unravel the ball of string in your head, help you lay everything bare, help you make sense of it all and then help you get yourself to a position where you can make positive informed decisions about how you want to move forward.

I personally have spent a long time mentally filing my perceptions of what was. It was a long and arduous process involving evidencing key grounding points in our relationship, working out who I was and how I had changed and why my behaviours had adapted. I have spent time looking at my physical and emotional reaction to experiences, learnt how to listen to my body and change how I reacted to situations.

When I first went to see a T I felt like I was carrying a very large rucksack full of burdens shame and guilt, some were mine, some were other people’s... .I feel a lot lighter on my feet now and that weight off my shoulders has positively impacted my relationships with everyone.

It’s an exciting voyage of discovery!
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2018, 03:12:03 PM »

I have been procrastinating by posting on other people's threads. It's time I got back here! H is away for work.

I have been trying a few helplines, a mental health helpline and a women's helpline. The latter seemed to have quite an agenda and not much time to spare but it was interesting to talk. The former I talked about H, but she didn't have anything to offer between "get him to go to the family doctor about it" (no) or "have Social Services come around and assess him without his consent" (again no!).  I'll try another helpline tonight that only runs in the evenings.

Formflier, I'm aware my daughter and I will need a bunch of therapy so I will look into this soon I promise, but I am keen to make some decisions and changes at this window of opportunity. Actually right now I feel pretty good, I have to keep reminding myself this isn't because anything changed for the better in the relationship itself, it's because I think I can now action changes, but I still have to stay motivated to do that.

No real people yet. The priest should by now have seen my request for contact. I haven't sought out the neighbor yet.

Sorry not sure how to do the quotes in boxes! Enabler asked:
- Any history of childhood trauma (for H)? 
H's father died of cancer within the two years before I met H at university. Initially I put a lot of the BP behaviors (anger, over-emotional responses, sulks, expecting me to fix problems) down to this. So I have never met his father. I suspect his grandfather was BP, H's mother was obliged to care for him and his wife for many years as he refused to go into a home or let his wife go into a home, and she was very depressed, exhausted, and quiet about this. H's mother has made comments indicating she is aware of his temper and unreasonableness, although I have not had conversations with her about it. H uses the same tone and some of the same behaviors and reactions with his mother and sister as with me. There was not any abuse in their home that I have been told of, but H's mother tells how when left at playgroup he would just sit in the corner the whole time crying ("but you have to do it, don't you? Otherwise they won't learn to get on". These things indicate to me that H had issues within the family environment but I don't know of any causes for these. 

Enabler also asked:
- We're unsure of your emotional feelings towards your H, do you love him (part or whole), want to love him, hate him or feel complete indifference towards him... .I understand this could be a tough question as it clashes directly with your religious beliefs. But being honest about your emotions is good... .your emotions exist regardless of whether you admit to them.

- I was reminded today by a workplace discussion about Myers-Briggs that I am an ENTJ and see emotions as a display of weakness and am all about the efficiency and solutions! I laughed thinking of my posts here. I have some emotions and in fact was considered an over-emotional child and teen, but I have learned to mostly keep them to myself. I have more or less replaced the public-facing parts of my personality with an attempt at a kind of ongoing stand-up situational comedy routine which works out a lot better for me. At home I mostly keep quiet now. 

Yes, it is a tough question. H occasionally makes comments like "God says you have to love me." "You promised to love me." I would have to say that I don't now have feelings of being in love with him. There's too much of a build-up of resentment and negativity, and I feel like I have to be so careful with expressing any emotions around him, anything in that area has to go in the box as well. I spent a lot of time assuming and/or trying to convince myself that I had to love H. I told myself the presence or absence of romantic feelings shouldn't matter at this stage of the relationship, to a good Christian, etc. I thought up till recently I'd grown out of needing to feel in love with or cared for by a person.

 I definitely fell in love with H within a short time of when we first met at university. As noted above he was still emotional over his father, and I actually had just left a relationship of 2 years with a boyfriend who I had briefly moved in with. (I was a pretty disturbed teenager with many out of order behaviors including disordered eating, but kept up the good grades.) It was a very different feeling than with the previous boyfriends.  There was a bit of back and forth before we coupled up and from then on shared accommodation. I had stopped going to church as a teen but became a Christian at university. I wondered at that time if I should break up with H since he was not a believer but I didn't. I think we were already quite enmeshed. We thought within about six months that we were going to get married. After a while I wanted to start attending the Catholic mass at the university and went to ask the priest if that was okay since H and I were in a sexual relationship. He said it was okay if we were intending to get married.

I think I knew reasonably early on that there was something unreasonable about H's behaviors, but I thought it would be better when we actually got married, when we had good jobs (H was and is very anxious about money), when we had a better house, when I was slim enough, if I was good enough of a housewife, when H started going to church with me, if I managed to do all the things he wanted, when we had a child, when said child was older, when we had enough money. (It is true there are fewer BP behaviors now but a large chunk of this I think is to do with my learning what wakes the dragon and how to adapt my behaviors (and instruct H to adapt hers) to avoid this. It is also a big relief to understand now that all the sorts of trying I listed above will not fundamentally help the issue and that I don't need to take it personally.) My daughter's early years were hard as she was a fussy baby and quite an anxious child (fearful and not physically adventurous). I also had a disordered relationship with food still (sorted now), and was in an unhealthy work situation for about six or seven years leading up to the end of 2016, really toxic and bullying for the last two of those. So I put some of the blame on those things for difficulties in the relationship and my own depressed feelings.

So this is where I was at in about October 2016, with my best hopes and favorite thought topics being that the Rapture would take place or that God would arrange some kind of a death for me. Of course I kept doing a whole bunch of useful things but that was how I felt inside. Then some very interesting things happened which I will tell you later on tonight if I feel brave enough. I've already been writing this post so long I am starting to deny the early paragraphs. It's not even really many feelings, just a bunch of facts. What does it indicate psychologically if things you have written about yourself seem completely unfamiliar to you after a few days or hours? My long post from June 6 already looks to me like it was written by and/or about somebody else. Is that a poor sense of self? I wouldn't be surprised. I'm going to hit Post now before I edit!
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2018, 03:59:28 PM »



I thought your answer about therapy was interesting... worth exploring further.

If you are in agreement that you and daughter will need it, why not pick up the phone now... .as soon as you read this?

What decisions do you want to make... .changes you want to make "in this window of opportunity" that you believe are better made without therapy?

What specifically is going to happen... .if you wait... .that will "close the window of opportunity"?


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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2018, 05:00:45 PM »

Hi Formflier,

Thanks for replying. The two specific things that are going to happen are -

(1) I have to decide in the next 3 months or so whether to commit to or drop a Bible story ministry at my daughter's soon-to-be-ex primary school, ending in three weeks and starting again in September. If I do it I am contractually obliged to be a respectable and non-messed-up member of the local community for the next two years. I know this isn't incompatible with therapy, but it is incompatible with suddenly freaking out if anything escalates, which I currently feel like I might do. I would hate to dishonor that ministry.

(2) My daughter is going to start at a local secondary school in September with many people that she knows from her primary school. If major life changes or more particularly relocation for us are on the cards, I feel like it would be least disruptive to implement that now. In that situation she would be able to start at a school with no prior expectations and could just give a brief explanation of herself and get on.

I did try calling the mental health helpline after I posted earlier but it was closed already (I thought it was operating another hour or two). As I said I find it easier to focus on plans and solutions and actions than on emotions, and it's much more of a mood booster for me to think about those right now. From Thursday I'll be having Relate calls every week, so that might help, but I'm aware that's not therapy for me as such.

Thanks, BL
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2018, 05:14:23 PM »

Perhaps I missed something... .

Can you point out what part of your explanation prevents or makes it somehow unwise to pick up the phone and schedule a T visit for next week?

At first blush... all of the things you mentioned would be wonderful to discuss with a T.

FF
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2018, 04:43:36 AM »

Hi Formflier,

I guess because it would be hard for me to hide that action. Going to a therapist is not something I think I could talk to H about without starting an uncomfortable conversation or telling some new lies. In this country it's not so usual to see a therapist or at least to talk about it. I don't have my own car so it couldn't be a physical visit (though I did see some counsellors on a local listing that offer home visits so that might be worth a try). My manager would likely let me have time off for a home visit or phone call, I have limited ability to make up work hours in the evening without upsetting H. I also don't have enough money under my control to pay for therapy for very long or very often (I think I have concealed enough money to pay for half a dozen Relate or CMC sessions without informing H, but I'd be concerned that proper therapy would blow through that quite quickly). So the blockers are to do with my life situation rather than the factors I mentioned in the explanation.

BTW Lenfan, looking at your post again, what is a "high functioning Hermit type"? Please could you give me some more details? My H is competent at work and in the domestic tasks he agrees to do but prefers to keep himself to himself socially. Is that what it means?

BL
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2018, 06:56:48 AM »

BL,

You are in a straight jacket. I'm not sure whether its a self inflicted straight jacket or just a circumstantial straight jacket, but you're stuck. from what you have said it feels like you have had painful experiences being emotional, and you have sought ways to minimise the pain/disruption from being emotional. Feelings hurt sometimes, but they also enable you to experience great joy, lust for life and fulfillment in life. By moving towards a completely rational way of thinking by suppressing any emotions you have avoided hurt, but as a consequence starved yourself of emotional fulfillment.

I am no theologian, but I do know a bit about Christianity and know about the vows one might make in a Christian marriage service to Love, Honor and Obey... .without going down a rabbit hole of unnecessary discussion, how possible is it to control Love for someone? Sure we can do/not do things to promote love and avoid distraction, but the actual feeling of Eros or Agape... .well that's not actually anything we can force is it? When your H says "you are biblically commanded to Love me", well all you can do is act in a way that a loving person would love someone regardless of whether or not you actually love them... .I can act in a loving caring and kind way to complete strangers, but do I actually have Eros or Agape... .no. My interpretation is that I should treat my wife in a loving caring and kind manner creating an environment where my feelings have the highest probable chance of nurturing Agape as possible... .and each of us in the relationship owns that responsibility for themselves.

I can understand that you don't want to lie to your H about the T. Would it be a lie if you said that you have had a very turbulent past, one with eating disorders, troubled teenage years. That you believe that this past and unresolved issues is preventing you being in touch with your emotional self, you have become emotionally hardened and this is a barrier to your flourishing and restraining you from being as emotionally committed to the relationship as your husband deserves. That for these reasons you would like to have a series of counselling sessions to unpick what is preventing you from being the person your family deserves... .you are addressing your problems as part of your marital vows. This isn't deception, this is what you should be doing. Get your husband to take you there, use family funds and be very open about it.

Does that sound like a solution?
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 08:56:20 AM »


I think we could give you one or two sentences to tell (not ask) you husband that you are taking care of your health.  Also would leave the door open for him to join you.

There is NO option for him to block you taking care of your health.  There is Biblical basis for this... .YOU are called to be a steward of your body and mind.

In addition

Proverbs 4:23

Above all else, guard your heart,
    for everything you do flows from it

Seriously... .everything you do flows through and is affected by your heart (mental health).  The link between mental health and physical health has been solidly established.

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2018, 09:00:22 AM »

Hi Enabler,

Thanks for that! I liked that C.S. Lewis book "The Four Loves".

It's true that I could explain the therapy to H based on my own issues. The issues I would foresee with that are (1) questions about why I'm not happy and what problems I perceive in my life, and (2) my own resentment about stating I am the problem in the situation. I actually did phone a counsellor after replying to Formflier and she is looking into whether she can do a home visit for me, hoping to respond today.

Your middle paragraph is a lovely picture of what I guess I have been doing up till now, and what I would probably do better in the future on the basis of improved knowledge if I felt I had to do that. I would need to replace my current fear-based motivations with something better and find healthier coping strategies. I'm not sure what range of emotional expression or fulfilment I would be able to have. An issue would be that all the loving actions have to be done correctly according to H's rules and frequently they end in complaints about my inadequate performance of them. I would need to spend a lot of time managing and altering each requirement and behavior individually. It would be a massive internal and external project.

I'm confident I could find a way to do anything I decided that I had to do. However, currently I am entertaining the possibility that I do not actually have to do this project at all, according to the Catholic church's rules. I previously believed I did not have a choice about my marital situation. Now my primary goal is to find out whether I do in fact have a choice and make an informed and yes! rational, decision on that basis.  This is why I seem to be looking mainly at the short term high level solutions rather than the more foundational issues.

I agree about the straight jacket, and am aware that it is made of an unholy mess of my and H's issues. In fact in the course of last year, the stuff I didn't post yet, I had a whole bunch of emotions which I had no idea I had the capacity for any more and were very joyful and painful. That was an emotional wake-up call that made me realise that I needed to act on my marital situation and request individual sessions with Catholic Marriage Care (in January). I had no idea what goal I had for those, only that it was an "authorized" means of seeking assistance which I was now aware I needed. So I waited and waited and waited (that still hasn't happened yet), used various coping mechanisms, and then finally (mid May) called Relate, saw my neighbor's post, read some books, found out that maybe I do have a choice, and found the BPD family. (waves)

The two facts I really feel like I need to know are whether an annulment is possible in my situation, and whether my H actually does have BPD. If I don't hear from my cousin soon I'll find another priest to discuss the first with. I'm planning to discuss the second with a T or other mental health professional ASAP. I am imagining that with those facts I can think about the future and make informed decisions about what actions to take, and then sort my head out afterwards. I know this is not the recommended process, but as posted above, in the next two months or so, our current life situation is at a good point for enacting any type of decision however extreme, and I don't need to feel bound or unduly influenced by my current roles and obligations and my daughter's. That's why I'm trying to cut to the chase rather than slow down and take some of the sounder and healthier advice provided by the BPD family. If that window runs out, and I find myself in it for the medium (2 years) or longer term, I'll be sure to take it then.

I hope that all clarifies. I probably can't post again till tomorrow but thank you all again.

BL
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2018, 09:07:32 AM »

Oh, except to reply to Formflier. Thanks for that and the verse! I tend to think first of "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure; who can understand it"! But yours is much nicer.

I'll let you all know if the counsellor is able to do a home visit - it would just be an initial factfinding session at first. She might recommend I go ahead and do it openly. If so I'll come back and discuss ideas on how to present it to H.

BL
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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2018, 09:56:50 AM »


Your verse works well too. 

The best way to "work with" a deceitful heart, is to bring people into our lives (that have our best interests in mind) and let them wisely guide us... .so we can avoid "deceiving ourselves"... .especially with unhealthy habits and thought processes that we have built up.

Please don't explain this to your husband 

"inform" him... .and let him know that you look forward to inviting him into future sessions for an "explanation".

You owe him no explanation  Going to therapy doesn't mean anything is wrong... .or that you are "unhappy".

It means you are being deliberate to take care of your health.

FF
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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2018, 04:33:47 AM »

Update: I do now have a T appointment on Monday next week. She's going to come to my house. The cost is only the same as a Catholic Marriage Care phone appointment would have been, so that's ideal. I'll let you all know how it goes. I probably won't post on here again till after the weekend now. Thanks again!
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« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2018, 05:47:31 AM »

All the best for the T appointment. Remember this is for you. T takes time and doesn't always go the way we planned. The more open and honest you can be about yourself and the T, the more likely you are to have a positive experience. Emotionally we can be like an onion, each layer is a layer of emotional protection we place round ourselves to protect the hurts from the past and present. T will help peel back those layers, opening ourselves up to being truly vulnerable to change and heeling.

Enjoy the experience, letting it flood out is liberating beyond belief.

Enabler xx
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2018, 03:08:47 AM »

Sorry, I've been using my posting opportunities to post on other threads again! I had a nice initial consultation session with the T yesterday. We have planned four or five sessions that can probably happen before the summer holiday starts. I told her a bit about everything and my various concerns. Next time we will talk to teenage me, but we agreed we didn't have enough time left to talk to her today, she has no idea when to shut up.

I also started talking to the canon law student about annulments, but he's a busy guy, so I only got as far as asking the specific question about BPD, and haven't had a reply yet. I don't know to what extent he's allowed or it's appropriate for him to talk with me about this. I did kind of raise that up front but he seemed happy to help.

I also had an opportunity to go to confession with another totally random priest at the weekend which I did. Proper old school in a wooden box with a grid thing and talking to the back of his head. I confessed various of my inappropriate and/or negative feelings and he was very kind about that. I asked him if he had any advice on the marital situation and he said some encouraging words about that and some explanations of the annulment process. He said in his opinion it was unlikely to be of value to talk to the parish priest as most wouldn't usually be very clued up on annulments. It's a bit specialist. I don't think he said anything I didn't already know but it was nice to hear some kind words from a minister. The format and anonymity made me feel really comfortable too. 10/10 Would confess there again Smiling (click to insert in post)

BetterLanes x
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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2018, 03:33:16 AM »

Morning Betterlanes, sounds like you stumbled upon a great source of spiritual comfort, it's awesome when you reach out for help and find someone who genuinely understands where you are and what you need. IMHO, the Priest was correct about you local parish priest, not just from the annulment perspective. Understanding personality disorders isn't for everyone, for some it's like believing in unicorns. My guess is that many of our US friends belong to very large organised churches where they have access to specifically trained clergy for counselling. In the UK for example our local Parish vicar with his congregation of 40 people probably has more clue about brewing mead than PD's. Be careful is all I'm saying.

Great you spoke to the T, it will take time to get going and an hour never feels long enough... .I love seeing mine and am seeing him tonight. I feel exhilarated after seeing him, like someone has released a pressure tap and taken baggage out of my back pack. Teenage you sounds interesting, I hope you revive her!
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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2018, 04:22:40 AM »

Betterlanes, I read this yesterday and liked it a lot. We see our reflection in a lot of people, your husband acts as a mirror to you and shines back a distorted view of who you are. It is your job to work out who you are in a clean pure mirror such that you can see how your H twists and distorts your imagine back to you. You may find that he is right about a some things and you might not like that... .but that will be an opportunity for you to choose to change... .or not  Smiling (click to insert in post)

... .The past few years have given me the opportunity (necessity) of figuring out who I am.  One thing I've learned is that everyone holds a mirror up to me, reflecting what they see.  Some of those mirrors are small and only show a small portion of me.  Some are smudged with the stuff their holder has touched them with.  Some are incredibly distorted "fun house" style mirrors.  My own mirror has its own smudges and distortions. 

I have spent an incredible amount of time and energy trying to fix things about myself that only existed in the mirror I was looking into.  The problem is that you can never wipe the smudge off the mirror by cleaning the part of your body that is reflected in that smudge.  Eventually you start hiding that part of yourself.  You start standing awkwardly to compensate for the distortion in the mirror.  You start thinking that the mirrors that more accurately reflect you are the ones that are distorted.

I am working on cleaning and straightening out my own mirror, but in the meantime I'm looking to surround myself with people who have better mirrors.  I have a therapist who is trained to keep a clean mirror and point out distortions.  I have friends who don't have a ton of distortions in their mirrors and are willing to take a swipe at what may be a smudge on their mirror as readily as to offer me a tissue to wipe the spot off of my body.  I have had perfect strangers hold up mirrors that show something beautiful and learned to not discount them or think they are angled towards someone behind me.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I hope you are being careful about what mirrors you look into.  Until you are a bit more sure that you know yourself well enough to recognize distortions, it may be best to avoid certain "mirrors". 

BG
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