About to enter family court trial with BPD spouse, contested child custody case

[Ollie2018]

I am new to this forum.  Married for 13 years, two young children under 10 years age.  Wife exhibits signs of BPD. 

Been in divorce process for 12 months, trial in two weeks.  Very nasty child custody argument.

Any advice?  I have an attorney very recommended in my area for dealing with divorce involving personality disorders.  Has been extremely stressful.

[Turkish]

It sounds like you found a good attorney. 

What's being contested in court? How are the kids?

[livednlearned]

Welcome and hello 

Sorry for what brings you here, OLLIE2018.

And glad you found the site.

What is the current custody arrangement? I'm guessing there is some sort of temporary agreement?

Do you feel like your attorney is doing a good job so far?

LnL

[Ollie2018]

Wife has been involved in multiple sexual affairs throughout our 13 year marriage, recently discovered her deceit and double life.  Two of her paramours are convicted felons and she has involved our two young daughters by introducing them in person and via video chatting with her boyfriends .  She has been living the lie as a super mom... .head of PTA, home room mother, Girl Scout leader,... .but all the time carrying on a double life and making horrible choices for herself and our family by choosing to involve extra marital relationships with felons.

We have still been living in the same home with our daughters since last July when I filed for divorce.  I decided to stay in the home to protect my daughters from my wife’s terrible double lifestyle choices.  She was planning on moving one of these felons into our home and I could not allow that possibility.  She is admitted she is not a rule follower and to date we have temporary court orders in place which she has all but broken every one of the orders but the courts here in this state tend to default to favor the mother in divorces so nothing but slap on the wrist warnings to try harder have occurred to my wife.

I try to employ no contact with her while in the home but that does not work well as I am sure you can imagine.  I have installed a lock on my bedroom door to prevent her from entering my room at night and climbing into bed... .one of her favorite manipulative tactics.

We have nanny cameras installed in the home for the main living areas and they have already been a saving grace to prevent false allegations from my wife to try and have me kicked out of the home by the courts.

I do not go into areas of the home while she is present if it is out of the coverage of these camera systems to protect myself.  I also spend almost all my time in my own room away from her when she is home to avoid conflict.

She is trying to have me removed from the home, take possession of the home, take fully custody of the children, get awarded most of the common property, awarded child support, and awarded spousal support for the maximum value and time period.

This is ridiculous and she knows it because of the mountain of evidence I have collected of her double lifestyle and affairs (while the kids were at home with her as the stay at home non working mother for 13 years).

She has a very crafty attorney and is playing all the angles to try and get the most she can from me before she moves onto her next target.

I trusted her completely and never suspected her double life. 

We have our trial in about two weeks as her attorney has delayed every step of the way to try and wear me down and expend all of our family funds and retirement with numerous court hearings.

She greatly under estimated my depth of care for my children and that it is not about the money as I can rebuild my money afterwards.  She only really cares about her reputation remaining intact as the victim super mom AND money.

Over the last 12months of legal fighting we have expended North of $300k battling it out in court and multiple psychiatric reports and studies... .all of which have ultimately found as recommendations for me to gain managing custody of our children and for her visitation to be greatly managed by the courts moving forward.  Even to the point of recommending she have to submit a full criminal background report to the court designated officer for any individual she may wish to become involved with romantically and expose to our children down the road.

I am happy the numerous reviews and studies have found in my favor but until we get to court in form of a jury trial it is all still in flux and chaios around here and that is where she excels with her BPD tendencies.

[Ollie2018]

Both of our children attend regular child counseling sessions and are really struggling with the currently level of stress and chaios in the household.  I try not to place them in the middle but wife specifically involves them as she knows they are a soft target for me and I will do anything for my kids.  She uses them as a leverage point to get her way and she will not limit her mind games for trying to turn them against me.

Makes me very angry and sad but I try to shield them the best I can under the current situation.

[livednlearned]

Oof. Wow.

Living in the midst of that chaos has to take a toll.

I feel your pain about the high cost and the legal nonsense that can drag out cases out and make things worse. It took me 8 years to recover financially from six-figure legal debt, but the freedom, safety, healthy relationships, and piece of mind is priceless.

It sounds like you are not in one of the states where alienation of affection laws apply?

Are you representing yourself?

What are the orders that she has not followed and what course of action were you advised to take, or did you take?

courts here in this state tend to default to favor the mother in divorces so nothing but slap on the wrist warnings to try harder have occurred to my wife.

My ex was given six, seven bites of the apple, too. Several years into our protracted custody battle (4 total) I learned to make recommendations and consequences both for compliance and non-compliance. When I started to do that, things finally started to turn around. I had a good L but she didn't feel the pain of the courts incompetence quite the way I did.

For example, through my L we would recommend anger management or parenting classes or this or that, and if he did not comply by day/date, then visitation remained status quo.

Or, I would choose three parenting coordinators, ex could pick one. If he did not choose one by day/date, then I would get to choose.

Every action had a reaction spelled out in advance.

Also, I learned that it was worth the money to have my L write up the ruling. She would take what the judge said and then write it up, then I would send her my edits. Those edits were often where I would make the recommended (and reasonable) consequences for inaction or non-compliance.

Those rulings always had their own hearing, and because it was mostly administrative, the orders were always waved through because they were well-written, comprehensive, and reasonable.

Make sure you go through that stuff with a fine-toothed comb to spot any loopholes, and close them up so that they are watertight. That way, when you (inevitably) go back to court, the judge will look at the order and see that it says, "Mom must do xyz by day/date. If she doesn't, then abc will occur."

It eliminates the merry go round of hoping the judge will rule in your favor. Judges, in my experience, prefer that the parties come to some kind of agreement about how to handle the trainwreck of their divorce. If you insert some solution-oriented language into the order, it increases the odds that the hearings will go in your favor.

[Ollie2018]

Thank you for the advice and share.  I like the ideal for a cause and effect for trying to instill some sort of order moving forward.

I do have an attorney and so does wife.  My attorney does not play games or operate outside the letter of the law and hers does all of the above... .she is constantly pushing the limits and then begs forgiveness when caught.  We are close to the end of the first stage the divorce... .I am just praying it is not like this for the next 10 years until our girls are grown.  Right now it is worse than ( one of which has a criminal record involving battery of his wife, battery of one of his girl friends, and endangerment of a child of three years old).  Real winner to expose our young daughters to.

Yes the last 12 months have aged me and changed me being in the same home with her and her mask being ripped off with her BPD.  She does not have a middle ground, either trying to win me back with any trick she can think of to push my buttons or raging at me.

No in between.  Never know who is walking in the door, nice or rage.

Beyond old!

[Ollie2018]

Orders violated... .just a few


Destroying evidence for trial, emails, texts, pictures, social media, etc... .

Keeping kids out of town and not returning when she was agreed to,

Speaking and allowing her parents to speak frankly to children about details of the pending divorce,

Speaking and allowing others to speak extremely disparaging about me in front of children,

Placing the children in the middle of arguments therefore upsetting the well being of them,

Hiding money from the community accounts,

Stealing money from community accounts,

Hiding mail, bills,

Has spoken to almost everyone of our circle of friends and has lied to make herself look like the victim to garner support and favors,

Has spoken with children’s school staff and done the same thing about lies to make out as the victim and try to hide or conseal information from school for functions and events, teacher meetings... .

Has continued to carry on affairs during divorce proceeding, even having a man come stay with her and the girls while away on a trip for New Year’s Eve.  In the same room of hotel!

Just a few... .

[livednlearned]

Your L probably has a good strategy.

I'll chime in with some things that helped in my case.

I focused on the things that I had proof or evidence for, and whenever describing any violations, I framed everything in terms of how it impacted our son.

Court does not really care about what goes on between you and your ex, not unless it impacts the child.

Because there were affairs, court will be expecting you to be angry.

If you set aside the anger and focus instead of what court cares about, which is a healthy environment for the kid, you will likely get more traction.

Applied pragmatically, you would order your list according the thing that impacts the kids the most. You would propose a solution to the problem, and then some consequences both for compliance and non-compliance.

For example, you don't need court to help you get information from the school. You can go to the principal and school staff, let them know you are there to focus on the well-being of the kids, and would like separate emails to help reduce conflict in the home. That's better for the kids, and it allows both parties to focus on the kids. You ask that if they have any questions about you, that they ask you directly.

You can't do much about her lying to friends. Court can't do anything.

You have the kids in counseling, which is great. Courts love counseling. You might ask that mom go to parenting classes to help her learn the difference between what is, and what isn't appropriate to say to the kids. Court could help with that.

You can get a new PO box and have important information directed to that address. If she complains in court, you simply explain to court that important information was not being delivered. You had concerns that those documents were going missing and set up a PO box where you could guarantee that information would arrive. Or, you ask the companies to deliver duplicate copies. You don't need court to help you solve that problem.

Not returning kids according to the court order, court can help with that. What is your solution for when it happens the next time? Because it will happen again. Maybe you propose to court that when mom does not return the kids on time, your custodial increases by the same amount, tacked onto your next block. If she doesn't bring them back for 2 days, you add 2 days to your time. That's a reasonable consequence for her non-compliance, and if court helps with that, you don't have to come back to court every time it happens because the solution is clear.

Court loves it when you help keep both parties out of court.

If she continues to bring affair partners back to the home and introduces the kids, even though the order says don't do it, propose to the court that she move into her own apartment and undergo some sort of treatment for sex addiction or counseling. Don't do this spitefully, do it in the interests of the kids -- give specifics about how she can earn back her privileges with the kids. Maybe she only spends time with the kids in public. If she takes the kids back to her home and it is discovered that she is introducing them to felon/boyfriends, propose to the court that custody be suspended until she completes treatment.

You can't do much about her parents talking about the divorce. Maybe you toss that in there with something else -- in fact, look for patterns and clump that stuff together, then bring it back to how it impacts the kids, but only if there is evidence to back it up (otherwise it's just hearsay). But in terms of what they say, court can't really stop them from saying stuff. And there isn't really a great way to put a stop to that. The best recourse is counseling for the kids.

If court picks up even a whiff that you are aggrieved, or using court to settle differences, you lose a little standing. The way they talk about parties in court is very demeaning. They see child-adults in court day in, day out, people who can't solve their own arguments so they have to run to the judge to settle differences.

If you show up with a solution mindset, and only use the court to help solve the problems it can reasonably help with, your outcomes are likely to be more favorable.

[Ollie2018]

Thank you!

[Skip]

Any advice?  I have an attorney very recommended in my area for dealing with divorce involving personality disorders.  Has been extremely stressful.

Here is a 35,000 ft view. Family court will host a bitter fit where the two of your scrap it out, you will get a postcard that says you're divorced, next day you need to be loving co-parents.

How did this every become the process? But this is it.

I think its best to get advice on how to tee-up and manage the post divorce period. You've got 10 more years with her as a co-parent... .it's important to be strong, learn BPD communication and empathy tools, and plan to provide structure (e.g... , first year with no deviations from scheduled custody) while you manage a non-threatenig cool down (12 months) with the hope you can become supportive and amicable co-parents.

She may want to retaliate. You may want to retaliate. The losers will be the kids and we have seen it happen many times here.

It really comes down to what is more important, your wounds or your kids?

[Ollie2018]

Thanks, Skip

Good words to think about.

Hard to put saber away after learning your spouse has been the worst imaginable nightmare right under your nose and using your hard work and support to fuel her own double life with numerous other men two of which are convicted felons who now know my two young daughters, probably my entire schedule and net worth.

Fallout potential for many years now... .

[Ollie2018]

Need to be able to communicate with folks who have lived through these types of nightmares... .family and friends try to be supportive but they just cannot truly understand the psychopath I am married to.  They cannot understand how she could have done everything she readily admits to with a smile.  She fooled everyone we knew, well!

Scares me to think about the stuff I have not found evidence on to force her to own up to.

I am sure she is like an iceberg and I have only discovered what is above the water line.

She may be more than just BPD... .she would never admit to seek treatment or diagnosis.

I can suck it up and do what is necessary to protect my daughters.  She keeps to the act of super mom if others are around.  If left alone she reverts to about polar opposite of super mom.

Part of the challenge to prove to jury in our trial.  Doubt they will believe the whole story... .will do my level best.

Understand from the posts on this forum I am in for a long road which will be in and out of court for years.  She is a professed non follower of rules.  She rejects rules now that her mask has cracked and does not even try around me and the home.

[Skip]

Part of the challenge to prove to jury in our trial.  Doubt they will believe the whole story... .will do my level best.

You are having a jury trial? How far into the process are you? What is she asking for?

[Ollie2018]

Yes jury trial week after next... .12 months of nasty fighting it out in court hearings after court hearings to get here.  We live in same home with our daughters.

She wants home, majority of community prop, spousal support, child custody or at minimum managing conservatorship of kids.  She wants to put a gag order on me to prevent me ever discussing the nature of why our marriage dissolved.  She does not want any record of her affairs and adulterous behavior.

She wants everything!

[Panda39]

Hi Ollie,

I see you've made it over here and met the wonderful LnL.

I just wanted to chime in on some of what she had to say in regards to my SO's divorce from his uBPDxw.

Because there were affairs, court will be expecting you to be angry.

Yes, keep the anger under wraps.  My SO had his anger at his ex used against him.  He was speaking to her on the phone and got frustrated with her, hung up and threw the phone into the couch.  This upset his daughters who then told there mother (who had a parental alienation campaign going).  Between them the story grew to the phone was thrown at the wall and shattered into a million pieces, to their dad wouldn't let them use the phone to call their mother and finally morphed into dad wouldn't let them leave his apartment.  He was then dragged into court for abuse... .all because he got angry and threw a phone into the couch.  He took his intact phone to court and the charge was dropped (the oh so concern mom didn't even show up to court) but he was ordered to go to therapy for anger management.  This turned out to be a good thing it gave him someone to talk to and get support from. My SO doesn't have many regrets about his behavior, but he does regret showing his anger.  By the way both he and you have every reason to be angry... .just keep it on the down low.
  

For example, you don't need court to help you get information from the school. You can go to the principal and school staff, let them know you are there to focus on the well-being of the kids, and would like separate emails to help reduce conflict in the home. That's better for the kids, and it allows both parties to focus on the kids. You ask that if they have any questions about you, that they ask you directly.

Do this with Doctors, Dentists, Teachers, camp counselors... .any adults that interact with your kids.  Always be proactive and always go straight to the source.  :)on't wait for your stbxw to give you information... .you could be waiting a long time  

If court picks up even a whiff that you are aggrieved, or using court to settle differences, you lose a little standing.

Be professional and focus on what is best for your children.  Try and organize your evidence in a way that stresses how your stbxw's behaviors negatively impact your children.  

You're hurting, what she did to you is a total betrayal, but leave it at the door when you go into the courtroom.

My SO had a 3 inch binder full of evidence and he broke it all down into small chunks divided by tabs.  In his case he had a lot of evidence of neglect regarding their daughters.

For example, their younger daughter had a toothache (mom had majority custody at the beginning) so mom scheduled a dentist appointment and didn't go, so she rescheduled the appointment and didn't go, then she decided she wanted to change dentists and scheduled an appointment and didn't go and rescheduled again... .her daughter had a toothache and this went on for 3 months!  My SO finally found a dentist that was open weekends and got her in.  He had a whole tab in the binder of the emails documenting this and his requests over and over to take her.

She had issues all the way around when it came to parenting... .she was great at getting you costume jewelry when what you really needed was socks and underwear... .she was a combination of neglect and over indulgence.

Panda39

[Panda39]

She wants everything!

She can want what she wants and she can want it until the cows come home but it doesn't mean she gets it.  Don't buy what she's selling, focus on what you want and go after it.  Typically things will fall some where in between, and yes it's scary... .it's the unknown.  What you can do is put your best foot forward and we can support you through this.

Panda39

[GaGrl]

It will fall somewhere in between, and you may be unsatisfied with the result. What you will read here is that many parents received full custody and decision-making in stages, over several years, when the BPD parent could not/would not adhere to the court order or behave in the best interests of the child.

The saying is... .it's a marathon, not a sprint.

[Skip]

Yes jury trial week after next... .12 months of nasty fighting it out in court hearings after court hearings to get here.  We live in same home with our daughters.

She wants home, majority of community prop, spousal support, child custody or at minimum managing conservatorship of kids.  She wants to put a gag order on me to prevent me ever discussing the nature of why our marriage dissolved.  She does not want any record of her affairs and adulterous behavior.

She wants everything!

Jury trial is unusual and expensive. Was that her attorney's idea?  Is your attorney a fighter or a pragmatic guy?

Sealing the documents should be a good thing ("gag" order to use your term). I did that in my divorce and there is no public record - girl friends, prospectibve employers, etc., can't look it up.

Alimony is formula, and only if she has no income, or domestic violence, or has a special needs child (in your state).

Property will be split 50%/50% unless there is something very unusual (domestic violence, etc.) - an if so, then maybe 60/40% are worse - more like in-between those two.

Custody plan will depend mostly on how well you convince te court that you have time, and environment (same school) to care for kids.

I don't want to over simplify (above), but family court is formula - the stories and the fight don't affect the outcome much, except if there is extenuating circumstances. Talk to us (in detail)... .we can give you perspective and things to consider.

[ForeverDad]

These days most alimony is intended as a stop-gap as the person transitions from married to single life.  The exception may be a few states that can order lifetime alimony for long marriages.  Typically, if she remarries alimony may end, depending on the wording of the decree.  If she shacks up, as is more common today, that may make triggering an early end to alimony harder.

So when dealing with alimony demands, think objectively.  If she's not working now, advocate every time that she needs to get working.  Alimony could give her limited time to focus on getting a job or the training for a career.  No, she can't demand she wants to go to college for 4 to 8 years and have you foot the bill.  But maybe a year or two, there are many occupations where a year or two years of classes can qualify a person for a career.  The key to remember, for most people alimony is to help in the transition out of the marriage.  It shouldnt be considered Free Money or Owed Money.

A warning about alimony... .the tax laws have changed for alimony.  Until now alimony was taxed to the recipient.  Often they recipient earned much less and paid little in taxes, a relief to the payer.  However, starting with new orders in 2019 and forward in the USA the payer also gets the tax hit, just like with child support.  Be aware.

[Skip]

No, she can't demand she wants to go to college for 4 to 8 years and have you foot the bill. 

I think 5 is the max in his state unless there us something really exceptional - like a special needs child.

[Ollie2018]

Over the course of the last 12 months I have paid to send wife to school to become licensed real estate agent.  She has been able to secure a job and actually sell her first home.

All good because now she is trained and can support herself with her new career... .

Been very costly but oh well better than paying support into a black hole... .at least I have been in same home to see where that money was spent and that is actually did something for her to make the transition.

She does not understand that she does not help her case for asking for spousal support when I just spent money to actually help her get a new career over last year prior to final divorce decree.

[Ollie2018]

I find it extremely disappointing that the courts do not take adultery as the reason for the destruction of the marriage more seriously in their splitting of community property.  I understand child support and what is best for the children is above all else but if during the adultery the wife exposed the young children to felons and dangers of potential abuse that should factor into the way the divorce splitting is handled.

Is there no longer any morals in the legal system?

[Ollie2018]

I guess the difference between a judge trial and a jury trial is that judges are nearly always going to stay to the norm and not deviate from the middle because they have to worry about re-election at some point at a district level.  Jury on the other hand can listen to the evidence and determine if they want to PUNISH a party for their extra ordinary bad behavior and damage to the family by their careless or dangerous decisions which expose the children to abuse.

A judge can try to limit the jury in their decisions but I doubt a judge would ever try to nullify a jury decision in family law case.

Am I missing something here?

Jury trial is unusual in family law case and cost more in time and fees to secure but the ability for the jury to decide a divorce as being caused by adultery and or marriage fraud is not possible by a judge alone in my state. That determination is only possible if the parties go to trial before a jury to try the facts.  That is why I am going before a jury.

Risky yes, but I am not the one with the mountain of evidence stacked on the table documenting my terrible decisions and numerous adultery actions over the years of the marriage.

I will gladly roll those dice at trial and accept whatever the jury comes back with.  Jury’s normally would not over look an individuals crazy actions which destroyed the family and marriage.

[Skip]

I guess the difference between a judge trial and a jury trial is that judges are nearly always going to stay to the norm and not deviate from the middle because they have to worry about re-election at some point at a district level.  Jury on the other hand can listen to the evidence and determine if they want to PUNISH a party for their extra ordinary bad behavior and damage to the family by their careless or dangerous decisions which expose the children to abuse.

What punishment do you seek? 

I'm so sorry the children were abused. What happened to them?

[Panda39]

Is there no longer any morals in the legal system?

The thing is courts aren't in the "morals" business no matter how much we want them to be and how much we would like to punish someone for their behavior, it is more pragmatic and about "administering the law".

That said I totally get your anger at your stbxw's betrayals and wanting her to hurt as much as she has hurt you and it's hard to let this go when you are in the conflict of a divorce.

Are you seeing a Therapist at all?  It might help to have someone to work through some of this stuff with.

Panda39

[Ollie2018]

Yes I have been seeing a counselor to work though and try to process all of this.  My goal is to work through the anger and be there for our children.

It is more difficult for me at the present because we are all still in the same home.

We have tried to get her removed from the home more than once but the judge was not wanting to put mom out of the home , again the courts here favor the mothers in divorce.  Since I have not done anything to justify them removing me from the home the judge decided to order me and wife to stay in the home until the trial.

I could leave on my own at any time but then I would be leaving my daughters behind and exposed to wife and her poor parental choices while she chases her next man target.

[Ollie2018]

Punishment is for her in the form of reducing her portion of the community funds because she cares so much about the money.  I understand when it comes to child custody the first time in court they will most likely split our time of possession evenly.  I pray I get the managing position to make necessary choices for our kids.

I will be having to return to court as time goes and she reverts to her poor choices which should result in her continuing to loose her custody rights by further court orders.

How is one parent to protect their kids from the other parent who has a personality disorder?

The courts do not seem to want to see that side of the child custody issue at this time (my situation).

[Ollie2018]

My attorney was able to get the court to order us to submit to a court psychologist study which lasted almost 8 months and involved the study of my wife, myself, and each of our children.  Purpose was for the court psychologist to write a report recommending how the child custody should be handled post divorce.

Well we have this report and it finds that the court psychologist recommends that the father has managing custody awarded and visitation for my wife under the requirements she submit a full criminal background check to the court appointed PC for any individuals she would become romantically involved with or possibly expose our children to during her times of possession.

Now I would hope that once we get to trial and this report is presented by the court psychologist it carries weight for the jury and or judge to consider for our child custody orders.

I am told that in this county that court psychologist has been doing this work for over 30years and most of the time she is recommending an even split or weighing toward the mom, very unusual for her to come out with such weight for me the father.  She also eludes to the mom has some personality issues but stopped short from actually stating she has XXX condition because that was not within her court scope of the review.

[snowglobe]

Dear Ollie2018, I’m sorry that you are in so much pain from your wife’s infidelity, deceit and hurtful actions. I’m also sorry to hear that your daughter’s well being was compromised. It certainly comes across in your posts. They are filled with pain, seeking vengeance, quest to “punish” her and “romove your children from their mother’s care”. Like most of nons you are trying your best in this setuation.
I want to speak to you on another matter, I was in the same setuation that your children are currently in. I was the only child of cheating uBPD mother, and a very hurt father. Through legal system he managed to leave her with just enough to get by. He wasn’t successful at removing me from her care. There was a lot of hurt feelings back and fourth, he was in a “punishment” mode for about 4 years after the divorce. She cried, she regretted, allegedly, and his ego was satisfied for the time being. I want to caution you, that for your children, she will always be their mommy, and the more pain she will be in, the more complicated your relationships can be with your children. I’m not condoning her behaviour by any merit, what my mother did to my father (cheating on him, openly, staying the in the same hotel rooms as I was, asking me not to tell my father thereafter) and what your wife did to you is a very hard pill to swallow. Yet, leaving us without access to the same lifestyle I was used to growing up, telling me that my mother had “xyz” issues turned me away from him, and created the triangle that still follows me to this day. She was a victim (my mom, or your wife), my father was a punisher (as I was growing older, it made me resent him, until I completely cut him out of my life at the age of 15) and myself as a “rescuer” (saving my mother, comforting and consoling her.
DBT skills are amazing for starters to help you deal with difficulty processing the trauma and regulating emotions. When all will be said and done, enormous amount of money spent fighting, all will be left is how you continue having relationships with your children. From myself, I wish you to find peace and enlightenment to let go. I wish my dad took the high road when he had a chance