Dating - part 2

[Fie]

hello all,

I am afraid I need input guys.
I have been dating this great guy for some months. Yes, it's the same one as here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=324784.0
So far, so good. He's intelligent, kind, sweet, and above all ... .he makes me laugh. And I am realizing I so need that. I enjoy his company so much.

But I am superscared.
The first 2 weeks I was afraid he'd turn out to be a NPD. I looked behind every stone  :-) He was moving a little faster than I am, so I took that to be a red flag. Sometimes I spent a whole day being scared on how many messages he would send me, and what that would mean (BPD ? NPD ?). Still, he respected (very much) that I was a bit slower then him. I didn't even need to tell him, he just picked it up and gave me (and still does) all of the time I want, both emotionally and fysically. And that feels ... .great. I feel respected. I have never been treated like that by anyone.

Let's say the first weeks I suffered from fear of commitment. Of course, the flip side of fear of commitment is separation anxiety (that has always been an issue of mine). And this all too well known fear is starting to kick in now... big time.

My new boyfriend has only had one serious relationship (he's 41) and has told me that he probably also has had some kind of fear of commitment when he had this relationship (he was 28 then). He has lived together for 2 years in this relationship, but after one year he had the feeling of wanting out.

I wanted to be honest with him.
I told him that I cannot handle someone with the same issues as me. That I have fear of commitment (actually it's more separation anxiety) myself, and that is difficult enough as it is. That I cannot handle these fears of someone else, too. He understood, said that for now he feels good with me, but he has had this fear in the past, and that he cannot 100% guarantee he won't have it again. That he likes what we have now, and if it's up to him, we should not overanalyze. That he doesn't want to loose me over something that he will probably never feel. But that he wants to be 100% honest with me, so that he has no mathematical certainty that he will never feel that way with me like he had in this one relationship.

I kind of am flipping over this now. I now I cannot ask him certainty. But having those issues myself, I think I need someone with a secure attachment style (he claims to have a good relationship with his parents). His explanation is, that in this past relationship, he and her went too fast (that's recognizable to me) and that also, they were younger. And that she sometimes didn't give him enough space, which made him feel closed in. That he's happy I am taking things a little slower than him, that that feels healthier. Mind you, he has never really actively thought about this and has never realized this being a problem. After this one relationship he never had something serious anymore. Sometimes he fell for someone who was married (which I think can be a sign of not wanting to commit). He never really felt the need of having someone in his life, until recently before some months, when he started to feel that he didn't want to spend the rest of his life alone and he wanted to built up something with someone.

Objectively, he has treated me good. He doesn't show signs of fear of commitment. He has talked about me to friends; wants to see me on a regular basis, doesn't cancel dates, nothing. Only thing is that he's moving a little fast, but I have been able to move that tempo down a bit - and he admits it's for the best, so we are able to build something together.

For now we kind of agreed that I am an overthinker, and that we should take things as they come. That there will probably not be a problem, and that we will handle things as they evolve.

I am superhappy that he wanted to be honest with me. But I am flipping. I cannot handle another bad relationship.

Is this all a bad idea ?

xxx

[Kwamina]

Hi Fie

I have been dating this great guy for some months. Yes, it's the same one as here

There is always an element of risk in relationships and going to next levels also means taking risks. If the trust is there, things might feel a bit less risky, yet trusting others and also trusting oneself can also be quite scary. Especially when you've been raised by a BPD mother  and also have had difficult relationships in your adult life before.

To help you examine and manage your fear, it might help to ask yourself some questions:

1. What is the worst thing that you think can happen in this relationship? Based on your experiences in this relationship so far, how likely do you think it is that this worst case scenario will become a reality? Is there any evidence to support the notion that this scenario might possibly occur?
2. What do you think is the best thing that can happen in this relationship? Based on your experiences in this relationship so far, how likely do you think it is that this best case scenario will become a reality? What is the evidence that suggests this scenario might possibly occur?
3. Can you think of any alternative scenarios that could play out in this relationship, other than the two opposite extremes listed above? Can you identify any evidence which supports the possibility of these alternative scenarios?
4. What is the likely course you think this relationship will take, based on your experiences in this relationship so far and the evidence you see?

I hope thinking about these questions will help you manage your fears. I understand your concerns though, also considering that it's not just you, but also your daughter that you need to think about.

I am superhappy that he wanted to be honest with me. But I am flipping. I cannot handle another bad relationship.

Then I guess it's a good thing you don't have a bad relationship with this guy right now. In fact, based on your own posts, you've actually got a pretty good relationship with him

My general parrot advice would be to stay present, take it one step at a time and try to focus your thoughts on the here and now and on the objective facts/evidence you can see.

Take care

The Analytic Parrot

[Fie]

If the trust is there, things might feel a bit less risky, yet trusting others and also trusting oneself can also be quite scary.

Trust ? What is that ? 


I am realizing I mistyped,  I mean I have been seeing him for some weeks, not months.

So to call it a 'relationship' is slightly exxagerated maybe. But you are right, we do have something going on that feels good, we both agree on that.

Thanks Parrot for the analysis. You are asking some really good questions (how on earth do you always succeed at doing that ?) 

My general parrot advice would be to stay present, take it one step at a time and try to focus your thoughts on the here and now and on the objective facts/evidence you can see.

 

That sounds like excellent advice, and I will do my best to follow it, I promise.

I am realizing that I still have issues. The last 3 years I have worked incredibly hard, also in therapy. I have been discharged by my therapist some months ago, but I've asked for another session to deal with all of this better. But I guess I will always have those damn anxieties. It was easier being single, just having a fling now and then and not feeling attached to anyone, not having to fear anything.

Thanks. You are the best.

[Harri]

Hi Fie.  

You are asking some really good questions (how on earth do you always succeed at doing that ?)  

 I know right?  :)o not question the power of the Parrot!

Trust ? What is that ?

[/i]  Can you trust that you can handle whatever may happen?  Trust for others is related to the trust we have for ourselves.  

I cannot handle another bad relationship.

Are you basing this on your past relationships?  You have new coping skills and have healthier patterns than ever before.  No one wants another bad relationship but don't you think you would identify and end a bad one earlier than before?  

 

[zachira]

I with you on not being able to handle another bad relationship. I have been learning everything I can about healthy relationships because I have realized I will never find one if I don't know what one looks like.
"Attached" by Levine and Heller is by far the best book I have read on how to find a healthy relationship. Take care and keep us posted on how we can best support you in your journey.

[No-One]

Hi Fie:
Could part of your hesitation be related to some level of "a fear of abandonment"?  I can understand being cautious with your heart.   Sometimes, it can seem best to NOT get attached, as the loss of someone you get attached to is painful.

If we don't take some level of risk with our heart, we may miss out on wonderful relationships. There is a risk in all new relationships, that it might not work out.  It takes time to really get to know someone.  The early weeks and months are generally as good as it gets.  As weeks and months pass, and stressful situations enter in the mix, either of you could decide that they dislike a behavior or trait to such an extent that they don't want to marry (or continue with a long-term committed relationshp).

It may seem silly to compare human relationships with pets.  Pets can be a wonderful source of comfort.  After the death of a beloved pet, some people say they won't get a new pet, because they couldn't bare another loss.  Whether it's changing jobs, entering a new relationship, getting a new pet, trying something new or conquering a fear; life will be boring without taking some level of risk.   

When we lose something in life, it isn't fun to work through that loss.  As the years go by, and we reflect back on our prime years of life, most will be happier with a short, rather than a long list of regrets about opportunities we didn't take.

Kwamina poses some interesting questions that can likely help you work through some of your fears.  Even if your relationship doesn't become permanent, it likely that your boyfriend has/will enrich your life to some extent. 

It's good that he is respecting your desire to go slowly.  Most women get really attached, once the relationship gets physical.  It's understandable that you want to feel confident that the relationship has potential, and that he is really interested in a real relationship (not just a physical relationship)

Enjoy your relationshp a step at a time.  Perhaps, it could help to journal your thoughts, as your progress in the relatioship.  How much did you enjoy certain dates and time you spent with him?  Was it better than not dating anyone, or just going out with girlfriends?

Do your best to stay in the moment and enjoy yourself.  Even if you part ways at some point, sounds like you will have had some fun along the way.  If your goal is marriage, and he advises you/demonstrates that marriage is possible with him, then it is wise to keep progressing with the relationship.

At some point, (perhaps a year, or a time period you feel comfortable with), you set a goal for a formal committment.  If you feel he is a "keeper", and you want to get married, you might want to arrange for some premarital counseling sessions. 

I think that premarital counseling is an under-used tool.  Many people spend more time researching a car they want to buy (and really look under the hood), but enter into marriage with a lot less thought.

Think about your personal goals and boundaries for this relationship. Think about your informal time line.  Right now, you can continue to interact here and with your therapist, as you step into the relationship. 

Enjoy yourself.  Let things evolve. No one is perfect, so see how he reacts to bumps in the road. I've heard that stronger relationships happen after a couple has a conflict that they are able to work through.

[Fie]

don't you think you would identify and end a bad one earlier than before?  

Thanks Harri. I have completely overlooked that. I will still feel bad if a relationship would end, but I would never stay in an unhealthy one anymore. You are right.

Can you trust that you can handle whatever may happen?

Actually, no. I have felt confident in my newly acquired skills, and here he comes, sweeping me and my confidence off my feet. I like him. And there is danger in that.

But No-one is right. There is risk taking in everything related to the heart. Some time ago I felt like there was room in my heart for someone new. In fact I felt that there was room enough to also accept possible children of a new partner. And now I am feeling anxious, forgetting that my heart was big enough, only focusing on my fears.

Whether it's changing jobs, entering a new relationship, getting a new pet, trying something new or conquering a fear; life will be boring without taking some level of risk.  

That is true. I am in a choir but I don't sing so good, so I would like to take a singing course, even though I am scared as hell that the teacher will think I suck so much. I manage to conquer fears related to doing things, activities. When people are involved, it's more dangerous.

Thanks Zachira, as always you are so kind. Thank you also for the book suggestion. It is good to know that I can come here when I feel bad.

I have heard you all. Thanks for your opinions. I have been panicking and I need to center myself and live more into the moment. I will really try.

You are the best, all of you. I am happy to have this forum.

[Kwamina]

So how have you been doing Fie?

You are asking some really good questions (how on earth do you always succeed at doing that ?)

It's my parrot vision, it's 20/20 Even better than Superman's! (yeah that Superman thinks he's so special cause he can fly, well all us parrots can fly!)
  

I am realizing that I still have issues. The last 3 years I have worked incredibly hard, also in therapy. I have been discharged by my therapist some months ago, but I've asked for another session to deal with all of this better. But I guess I will always have those damn anxieties. It was easier being single, just having a fling now and then and not feeling attached to anyone, not having to fear anything.

Yes, after being raised by a BPD parent, the healing process more often than not will be a lifelong process with ups and downs, sometimes one step forward and two steps backward and always a parrot along the way to ask you about trust

What you say here about fear is interesting though. Because even in the scenario that you weren't attached to anyone, it seems that fear is still an issue issue here. For it seems your reason for not wanting to feel attached to anyone, is the fear of what might happen if you were attached to someone. Would you agree with that?

 I know right?  :)o not question the power of the Parrot!

Yes, that sounds about right

The Board Parrot

[Fie]

Hi Kwamina, thanks for being so kind to check up on me, that feels really good 

I have been doing good. In my therapy session I have learned that I need to focus on my body when I feel anxious, and stop my mind from going into overthinking again. Things I know already ... but it was good to hear them again.

Like you guys my therapist said that I needed my thinking mind for just one thing though, and that is the knowledge (trust) that I can handle anything that will happen to me.

So now and then I repeat this to myself... .it's what you guys also had told me.

I promised to try and stay into the present, I am working really hard to keep my promise. I have noticed it helps a lot. Whenever I am not with my new boyfriend, I try to focus on what's here and now, and I am learning that my other not-to-him related activities give me a lot of joy too (like they did before I knew him), and that I should focus on that, instead of fearing that something will happen instead.

In the meantime we did have a little incident where it came up that he has similar abandonment issues as me, which is a pity. I read somewhere that people with these issues are better off with a partner who has nothing of that kind ... but well. To paint a clearer picture, at one point I kind of criticized him, after which he sort of told me that he wasn't too sure about his feelings for me anymore. It was very confusing, so I asked for an explanation, because he does act like he's in love with me. So he told me 'if I really loved you enough, don't you think I would do those things without you having to ask me for it?'. So I was like : 'love ? Did you just tell me that you love me ? and why on earth shouldn't that be enough ?',  upon which he said, 'yes, but maybe I don't love enough, and maybe I will just disappoint you because of that' ? So he admitted that he probably never is in real relationships because he's afraid to disappoint people, upon which they would abandon him... .When I told him that disappointing me is something that automatically will happen, because it's inherent to every relationship between any two people, he was like, really, would you accept that from me ? It was a little strange to see how severe he seemed for himself.

It's very double because he does clearly have a problem with abandonment, and so do I. But hell, I make a problem of everything. I make a problem of him telling me he loves me, because I think it's too soon and I am scared of myself because I do have similar feelings for him myself.

So for now, well, I told him that whenever he feels scared that I would leave, in stead of the push and pull, he can talk to me and I can reassure him.

And on the other hand, I just follow your advice - and I stay in the present as much as I can. This is someone I like a lot. I am telling myself it's a pity he has those issues, but that everyone has something. When I am around him, I feel good. He makes me feel age-less. It's been ages I have felt this way. Well, 20 years to be precise  :-)

Thanks again Kwamina. Really sweet of you to see if I'm ok, I feel blessed.

[Kwamina]

Hi Fie

I am glad you had such a good therapy session

I am telling myself it's a pity he has those issues, but that everyone has something.

Exactly, everyone has issues. It is important that we are alert to red flags, especially considering our background, yet it's also very important that we don't look for perfection in others because, to quote Pete walker, Perfection is a self-persecutory myth.. Pete Walker was talking about how we view ourselves, but it can also be applied to how we view others:
"My perfectionism arose as an attempt to gain safety and support in my dangerous family. Perfection is a self-persecutory myth. I do not have to be perfect to be safe or loved in the present. I am letting go of relationships that require perfection. I have a right to make mistakes. Mistakes do not make me a mistake. Every mistake or mishap is an opportunity to practice loving myself in the places I have never been loved."

hen I am around him, I feel good. He makes me feel age-less. It's been ages I have felt this way. Well, 20 years to be precise  :-)

I like this! The special way some people can make us feel is something that will stay with us forever. Sounds like he's been able to connect in a special way unlocking a special part of you

[Fie]

Thanks Parrot. I cannot tell what a relieve it is that I can come here to talk.

Sounds like he's been able to connect in a special way unlocking a special part of you

He certainly has. Unfortunately though his and mine (similar) issues could cause problems I am afraid... .Friday something similar as I mentioned before occured. In stead of wanting to talk about it, he took his bag, and said he'd leave. I was like : what ? Can we just talk about it ? So, finally, we did, but his intention was to run away and apparently that's what he has been thinking about the last two,three weeks, wanting to break up because he's afraid to be too connected and he's afraid he could never be good enough for me. According to him I am way 'above' him, a better person, etc., and I'm foolish to be with him, I only don't see it, and I just apparently fall for the wrong persons (he knows about my past by now), him included. It all sounds so familiar to me. I cannot be angry for this because all of the feelings he said he had, I have felt them, in this relationship or in the one with someone I loved a lot 20 years ago. I also was just waiting for that guy to break up with me because I was convinced he was a better person than me. I did quite a bit of push/pull with that guy and fortunately he was strong enough to guide me through it.

I don't know. He's this superpositive person, and I like that. I am also a bit like that. But apparently there is one area where he cannot be like that, and that's relationships. And that's the same for me.

I told him that he can go anytime he likes, but please not for this reason. Let it be because he thinks we don't fit, or he doesn't love me. But not because he thinks I deserve better / he's afraid to loose me, because I'm not planning to go anywhere.

I have great difficulties dealing with it. He knows it, and keeps telling me he will deal with it, when he starts overthinking again, and that he won't leave. It helps to hear it (not for him when I tell him similar things but for me it does). I panic. This is something I don't want. I know everyone has issues. And a lot of people have abandonment issues, a lot. But he doesn't even have a lot of material things out of fear to loose something he'd gotten attached to. He's worse than me ! (hey, that exists !)

But I so like him. (And I'm not even talking about the fact that I have started to love him) He's funny, kind, smart, and he's one of the sweetest people I have ever met. There are not a lot of people I like being around more. He likes honesty the way I do. He's considerate of other people and in those little things he does I can tell he's attuned to what I need. Not a lot of people have treated me the way he does.

I panic.
He is going to have this again. He knows that when he runs, I cannot allow myself to accept him back, because then I participate in the push and pulling that would feel so old familiar. I cannot go that way again, I cannot do that to myself. That's not the person I want to be anymore. I want to have someone by my side who chooses to stay with me, who doesn't run one day, only to realize the next day that he wants me anyway (apparently that's the scenario that would play).

I don't know what to do.

[Harri]

Hi Fie!    

As usual, when it comes to romantic relationships, I don't have much to share.  But (!) as usual, I have an opinion   and I think you are doing a great job at recognizing the dynamic involved and managing your end of things.  It is really all you can do.
 

I have great difficulties dealing with it. He knows it, and keeps telling me he will deal with it, when he starts overthinking again, and that he won't leave.

Other than when you encourage him to stick around and talk things through, is there anything he is doing on his own to help himself?  Mindfulness?  Therapy?  Is he aware that there are things he can do and help he can get?

 

[Fie]

Harri, friend, as usual I am happy to read you ... .thanks !

Other than when you encourage him to stick around and talk things through, is there anything he is doing on his own to help himself?  Mindfulness?  Therapy?  Is he aware that there are things he can do and help he can get?

I don't really know ... at first he told me he was not into psychologists and so ... he thinks they label people, and have one sort of treatment for every 'label', without looking to the person, 'knowing everything best'. He also thinks they have a lot of issues of their own and that's why they became a therapist  :-).

Yesterday he dropped a little something, I think it might have been deliberate. He was joking around, then jokingly said 'well, my self esteem could be a little higher', and then some time later he made a quick reference to not excluding to go to therapy one day. I'm not sure if he's really on to something, I didn't ask further because I didn't want to push. We have talked quite a lot about this stuff lately, and he's doing his best to calm me down by saying he has no intention of quitting the relationship (he's aware of the panicky dynamics he has caused in me). So I do not want to exaggerate and I also just want to keep having good times with him, not turning the conversation on the same thing the whole time.

He does turn to humor though. Yesterday while holding hands, at one moment I took my hand away ; he said: 'hey, watch out, my separation anxiety !'.  That was a good moment, it was a bit funny and I realized he's trying to give all of this new information a space into his head (I am the first person to whom he has talked about this).

x