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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Serious Decisions / Doubts  (Read 415 times)
Slonzok

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« on: June 09, 2018, 07:27:39 PM »

Hello dear BPD family!

It has been a long time since I posted here. I’m writing this post because I would like to have your honest assessment of my situation – I hope some of the experienced members would join in. Because it will probably become a lengthy post, I’m not sure where to put it.

To my situation:

42 years, m, my wife 43, unBPD, no children.
Together for 13 years, married for 8 years


I used to come here for advice, for support in the worst times of my life. I surely have learned a thing or two. For some time it seemed I figured out how to avoid the worst fights, how to not let arguments reach a critical level etc. My decision to marry her was strongly connected to the wish or  the hope that our relationship would improve through a stable setting, frame. My wife is of Turkish descent and a romantic / sexual relationship without being married is strongly sanctioned in her culture. I also hoped that our sex life would improve, because I had experienced periods as long as two years without sex before it… Another reason was the promise made by my wife that she would gradually detach from her dominant parents when she would be married.

As far as I hoped our wedding would be the starting point of a better relationship it was a bitter letdown. We had the first serious crisis two month after the wedding and it was my conscious decision to give her another chance, because I had the feeling that our entire struggle would be wasted if we would divorce. I think many of you can probably relate – the idea that we have put so much effort into it was somehow an obligation to carry on.

Another reason for me to still try to make it work can probably be seen in the fact that my only sister was diagnosed with BPD and was the cause of many trouble and sorrows in my life. I learned about her condition almost simultaneously when I understood what was going on with my wife. I think, once again, some of you may relate. It explains many things from the beginning of our relationship – I felt strongly connected to my wife, because it was all so familiar to me. I was also used to the role of a caregiver, silent sufferer, to the struggle to comfort a female who is suffering herself etc. My sister went NC a month after our wedding; she also tried everything to prevent it. My sister has vanished from my life since then and also has broken up any contact to my mother one year later.

 The first three or four years into our marriage were the most difficult years I have ever experienced. In that time I tried to help my mother to cope with the situation (my sister has three little children now I have never met) and at the same time I was trying to make my marriage work. I eventually became ill and my health issues seemed to have a positive influence on my wife. She started – for the first time – to provide consistent support, something I did not believe she could do. There were certainly setbacks, from time to time, but our relationship improved. I had the feeling we were growing together and I slowly gained trust. The sex life was however practically nonexistent.                     The influence of my parents-in-law over my wife, her time, her energy and her plans grew even stronger.

 I don’t know if you can understand me… My small family was falling apart (some other family members went nc for other reasons in the last years), my wife and her family on the other hand were the stable factors in my life.
 

There was however another reason for the improvement in the behavior of my wife: her declining hormonal levels. For the entire time of our relationship her typical BPD behavior occurred ca. 10 days before her menstruation. I stumbled over BPD when searching for information about pms-related problems. There were at least two stages when everything seemed to become more and more “normal”. In the first phase the insane fights and accusations before her menstruation vanished, but occurred always right after it. In the second phase she would show no further symptoms anymore, besides such as craving for sweets or headaches. It was a huge relief and I was eventually able to tell her many things I would never try to tell her before.

Unfortunately her hormonal situation is also connected to the most important issue of our life by now – the wish to have a child. Because of her refusal to have sex with me we have missed quite many opportunities to achieve a pregnancy. Despite her “official” statement three years ago (she was by the time around 40 y) that we would try to get her pregnant she was not willing or able to have sex more than once a month. We still had breaks of two or three months entirely without intercourse. We had many fights when I suggested having sex because she was fertile by then. She did literally everything to avoid it. My attempts to talk about it, if she really wanted to have a child were blocked, led to further arguments etc. Through the years I learned enough to be almost 100% sure that my wife and her twin-sister were both sexually abused by someone from her family in their childhood. I even believe that this situation must have occurred at the age of ten years. There had been many hints, many strange situations and also statements by her twin-sister pointing in this direction. My wife however denies anything like this and presents no explanation for her sex related issues. Her gynecologist asked her once if any kind of abuse happened to her, but she denied once again. Her sister’s remarks were not openly admitting an abuse, she also denies anything like this, but she once said something in an extreme stressful situation what seamed to be a slip of tongue and sent chills down my spine.

I have to add some information to this complicated matter by now. Her sister’s husband is one the best and closest friend I have. We met through the two women and became really good and reliable buddies over the years. Her sister and her husband had their first and till this day only child six years ago. I hoped that the pregnancy of her twin would foster the wish to have children in my wife, but the exact opposite happened… I have never experienced anything like that. Every attempt on my side to speak about having a child was blocked, ignored. She never told me anything like: I would like to have children too, or I would like our children (her sister’s and our) to grow up together. I have to admit that I have been suffering a lot because of the situation. I have been watching my “brother-in-law” for six years now to experience something I wish so badly for. His life with my wife’s sister has been very similar if not even identical to my own experience. I would describe my wife’s twin-sister as a highly functioning pwBPD. My wife’s sister displays the same issues in regards to sexuality, very often using the same wording in arguments etc. Their sex-life seemed to improve after the wedding but only as long as her sister was trying to become pregnant. Interestingly enough she never told her husband that she wanted children (he hoped she would want to) but initiated sex every time she was fertile. Sexuality stopped however the very moment this objective was reached. Her husband had been trying to have sex with her for the five years after the child was born without any success. Their marriage is about to finally fail and the only reason for him to stay is his daughter and the fear that his wife could implicit a lot of suffering and mental damage to the child if he wasn’t around anymore. He met a young woman lately through his hobby, who herself is a psychotherapist. They became friends – but not lovers, he isn’t having an affair. After some time he decided to tell her some stories from his and also from my life and the problems we experience in almost identical way with our wives. The assessment of this therapist – I would not call this a diagnosis for obvious reasons – was BPD caused by posttraumatic disorder in the wake of sexual abuse. I decided to share this opinion with you because it sheds some light on the overall situation. We have experienced exactly the same reactions when trying to initiate sex many, many times. The situation had similar effects and leaves the both of us without any hope for improvement.

Despite rather negative reports of her sister’s behavior after the pregnancy I initiated visiting a gynecologist for in vitro fertilization. We have actually been even in two such institutions. The female doctor in the first one lost my wife’s trust after stating that having sex once a month would probably not be enough to achieve pregnancy. The doctor was painted black - I have to admit that I enjoyed the whole conversation a lot. We found another medical office specialized on in vitro last fall. The gynecologist there told us that there was still some hope and we would maybe succeed. Besides the cost – at least 4.7k $ - the examination took place seven months ago and there was no attempt made till now, because my father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer two weeks after our visit to the doctor. As you can imagine it was not possible even to talk to my wife about this topic. Her father was very lucky and has the best possible prognosis, he will probably survive and stay cancer free. Unfortunately he is now about to get himself killed by diabetes, which he refuses to take seriously. The fact that he does not monitor his sugar levels and does not want to take his medicine will probably lead to a stroke or a cardiac arrest in the nearest future. We know it because my wife’s twin-sister is a physician specialized on heart disease and vascular surgery… Even she could not convince their father to take the medicine and the outlook on the future is really grim. This situation is continuing since March and I clearly see the negative impact on my wife’s condition. Needless to say our sex-life ceased to exist somewhere around October 2017.


That is the situation I’m facing right now. There are some serious  decisions I have to make in regards to my professional career as well. There are many options on the table, many chances, but I can’t say for sure what my professional situation will be like by October of this year. One possible option would include visiting the USA and staying there for at least 12 months. It has been my personal dream to immigrate to the USA for many years, but I know for sure that my wife would not follow me because she would never leave her parents and other family members living in Germany. One could assume that the best solution would be to get a divorce and try a fresh start. The only problem is my commitment to my marriage and the love for my wife. It appears to me inhuman to drop her because I can’t pursue my personal dreams – having children, normal sexuality, going to the USA -  with her. There are a lot of things I appreciate about her; in some regards I feel a deeper connection than some years ago. But deep inside I also know that everything good can vanish in the blink of an eye, e.g. in the case of her father’s death.


My main question can be described as follows:
Should I still try to have a child with my wife? I know that if I don’t take any action (organizing appointments, funds, talking to her about giving it a try etc.), nothing will happen. I am in fact unsure if I can still wage another attempt on building a family at my current age of 42 years…



If anybody managed to read the whole text – many thanks! To close the saga I would like to add a list of positive and negative aspects / developments:

POSITIVE:

-   Have learned a lot about my own issues by dealing with my wife’s BPD.
-   Strong healthy habits in some areas in regards to anger, self-control etc
-   Regained my Christian Faith, rebuild my connection to God
-   We have very good times, with mutual support, fun and acceptance
-   No physical outbursts by my wife anymore

NEGATIVE:

-   Lies still an issue – my BPD-wife lies often even about insignificant things
-   Impossible behavior during arguments, e.g. silent treatment, verbal aggression etc
-   Sexuality
-   One ?attempted? Affair by my wife three years ago, probably only “checking her value” but not sure if not even more (have not confronted her)
-   Destructive influence by her family on many levels
-   Manipulative techniques causing me being permanently alerted
-   Many spoiled days like birthdays, x-mas, etc.
-   Unpredictable behavior in stressful situations
-   Double standards – maybe less than initially but still a serious problem





I would appreciate any comments and hope that maybe someone will see things I cannot make out any longer in this fog of war….
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2018, 10:09:33 AM »

You've mentioned lots of issues that you are contemplating.

I guess I'll start with the sexuality. By virtue of age, your wife is nearing menopause, and is possibly in perimenopause. Due to waning hormones, the probability of having an improved sex life with her is quite unlikely. As a woman who previously greatly enjoyed sex, I'll tell you, the interest declines radically when the hormone level drops, sad to say. And if she was uninterested in sex before, that doesn't portend well for the future.

Regarding pregnancy, by age 43, the number of viable eggs has lessened considerably. Something to think of at this age too, is that remaining eggs might be less healthy. The possibility of birth defects, miscarriage, as well as autism rises. Would you want to have a special needs child with your wife? The odds of that might be a good question to raise with the fertility doctors or do your own research.

Then there's the co-parenting if you choose to have a child. You've experienced her behavior for 13 years. Is this a person you'd want to share parental duties with? And what about the impact her behavior might have upon your child?

It sounds like you're in a position where you're making some big life choices. Do you want to continue with her as your spouse, knowing what behavior is likely to occur in the future? Can you accept her exactly as she is, knowing that you've been successful at not making things worse? Do you want to follow your dreams and visit the USA? Do you want to let go of the marriage and hope to make a new start? Or do you want to hang on to the good you have found in her and just accept that you can't have some things you want out of life?

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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2018, 04:31:06 PM »


So... .a big pattern jumped out at me.

Trying to reflect your words... let me know if I've gotten this incorrect.

"I didn't have the best relationship but she promised it would get better if we got married... ."... .and that didn't work.

So... ."I really want to have a child even though we have an unstable relationship and my wife won't have sex with me very often... ." ... and things will improve after having a child (Is this what you are thinking?)

Listen man... .children are blessings... but they also take a lot of work and they are "a tax" on a relationship.

An axiom:

A stable loving relationship is likely to produce good, well behaved children.  Having a child is unlikely to improve or create a stable loving relationship.

Thoughts?

FF
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Slonzok

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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2018, 07:21:02 PM »

Thanks for the reply!

@cat familiar:
Thank you for insight - I value it highly as coming from a woman. As a man I always have to take into account differences in regards how men & women experience sexuality. It leads on my side often to more doubts... .The issue about sex is, as you probably can imagine, not only the missing satisfaction, the drive itself but the lacking intimate connection a bodily connection. In some times it is really hard for me to cope, in another times it seems less important. My wife's attitude towards sex seems very similar to the described general problem of men &women with BPD dealing with such a proximity or real intimacy. I have learned that she often would be able to come into erotic driven mood, but she choses not to do so. She seems to fight against it. I suppose it has very much to do with the fear of losing control etc. A therapist I consulted once explained it this way. The T said that destroying intimacy, blocking sexual actions, like passionate kissing is the only way for her to keep control. All the rational explanation does not really help when I'm starting doubting myself, my male sex appeal for her etc... Really sad.

The life changing decisions are clearly ahead, my problem with the situation is the discrepancy between my rational self and the emotional self, so to speak.

Thinking rationally can mean to accept the fact that I should certainly try to achieve the best outcome for myself, because I am responsible for my decisions and the consequences. I will have nobody else to blame later on. I struggle with this rational point of view because of my upbringing, my faith, responsibility for my wife etc. There seems to be a conflict between being loyal towards myself or my wife - there is no solution... . 

Additionally I blame my wife and her sister for the difficult situation in regards to having children. I have been speaking, reminding and warning that it may be too late if my wife would postpone this "project" year by year. Around the time her sister was pregnant my wife had two options: pursuing a certain professional goal or taking a "break" for about two years and going after it later. I suggested we should try to get her pregnant and postpone the professional objective. My wife ended screaming at me: "You are ready for a child, but I am not!" - she was at this time 37 y. Her sister supported her opinion and convinced her that she still had plenty of time for pregnancy... .I hoped that her sister as a physician would understand and act accordingly. That is in fact something I cannot forgive and I sometimes even believe that her sister is following a hidden agenda to make sure that my wife would take care of their parents - in present and in future, which would probably become complicated by a child. I really don't understand it, but as I stated before my wife's sister is probably a pwBPD as well.

It's a nightmare, because I see all my fears coming true... .I feel like Cassandra... And still... I don't want to say: See? I was right! Now I'm leaving and you can deal with this mess. It's just not me, it seems not right. On the emotional side I see the risk of me breaking down or suddenly dropping everything because I would not stand it anymore. It is very painful for me to see children, dads with kids playing etc. It hurts a lot... .I have never caught my wife looking sadly at children, she seems for example perfectly happy playing with her niece while I could break down when I watch them... .


@formflier:
You have certainly a point here. My thoughts, plans or wishes can only work under the condition that this relatively stable stage would not change for the worse. In the really bad times, when we argued almost daily and the fights would escalate into physical violence by my wife I could not imagine having a child with her. But my wife has made huge progress, she has been able to keep a job in a very competitive field, with lot of stress etc. She developed skills to deal with criticism - as many people report here - one of the biggest issues for pwBPD.

One example: It is actually possible to end an argument in a peaceful way within hours or sometimes even minutes now. It has never worked this way in the first years.


But I have to admit that this optimistic aspects can vanish if her hormonal situations changes dramatically (through hormonal treatment before in vitro, during or after the pregnancy etc.), or through dramatic events like illness, a stroke or (God beware) the death of a close relative.

I certainly have many doubts myself - that is the reason for me posting here. Thank you for your suggestions! I hope to understand better the way the unconscious motives on my side work... .


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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 11:29:32 AM »

Slonzok,
You certainly are dealing with very profound issues. That your wife has made great strides in improving her behavior is commendable. But is it enough for a lifetime with her?

You speak so longingly about children and being a father. Parenthood does not seem to be a shared dream for your wife.

You see the entwinement she has with her parents and the likelihood that she will be their caregiver in old age.

You would like to experience coming to the USA, but you know that your wife would be unlikely to accompany you if you did.

You’ve got some very hard decisions. Do you give up your dreams of fatherhood, travel, a supportive wife? Or do you stay with the status quo?

I would bet that for many of us on this forum, if we’d had an insight into our future partner’s behavior and had seen BPD behaviors at the outset of the relationship—probably a good percentage of us would never have had a second date.

And many of us here are bound by parental and financial considerations to an unreliable and unpleasant partner. We are hoping to make the best situation for all concerned, but our relationship is certainly disappointing and unfulfilling.

Some of us have the potential freedom to break the constraints and create a new life, unbound by a mentally ill partner. Why we don’t do that: Fear, Obligation, Guilt. (FOG)

When I ended my first marriage, I had to deal with all those elements (FOG). It wasn’t easy, but I’ve never regretted it. I did end up with another BPD husband, but this one is much nicer and way easier to live with.

Cat
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 12:05:37 PM »

For many, any one of the things on your list of negatives would be a relationship "dealbreaker".
Not for us here. Alas.
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 01:23:37 PM »

Good point Dragon72.  I am struggling forgiving myself for not doing what a healthy male would have done over 20 years ago, and every year since then.  And yet, we hang on.
Slonzok, You've got to find that inner voice and listen.  There are a lot of things to take into consideration. 
For what it's worth, I know a guy who is still married to his uBPDw because he'd rather pay child support amounts of money _on_ his kids - rather than a check to what would be his ex-wife.  Having a kid doesn't fix anything.  Getting pregnant used to be a method for a girl to trap a guy into marriage.  It surely won't be a way for a guy to get his girl acting better.  If anything it will draw her away into the kid.  And, I believe in the heritability of mental illness - even absent the present generation abuse, I think parents still can pass on abusive personalities.  Consider your legacy, and visualize what your child's story might be in his or her future, if you have a baby.
Just adding to your things to consider.
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2018, 02:44:13 PM »

Excerpt
My decision to marry her was strongly connected to the wish or  the hope that our relationship would improve through a stable setting, frame.

Hey Slonzak, Your story is quite familiar.  Like you, I thought that certain issues in our r/s, like my W's stormy temperament, would diminish with the certainty of marriage and commitment.  In other words, like you, I ignored the red flags.   Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)

I'm with Samwize: Having a kid doesn't fix anything. To the contrary, having a child adds a whole new dimension of stress.  Suggest you proceed cautiously before going down the path of parenthood, which is a huge responsibility.

I'm also concerned about your isolation and the fact that your sister, as well as other family members, have cut you off.  That's another red flag to me,  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post), because without the support of family and friends, you can lose all perspective in a BPD r/s, which is not fun, believe me, if you lose yourself like I did.  In my view, your brother-in-law is too close and conflicted to be useful to you in this regard.

Now is a great time to think hard about where you are headed in your marriage.  What are your gut feelings?

LuckyJim


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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2018, 03:07:32 PM »


Excerpt
Hey Slonzak, Your story is quite familiar.  Like you, I thought that certain issues in our r/s, like my W's stormy temperament, would diminish with the certainty of marriage and commitment.  In other words, like you, I ignored the red flags.

Me2... .I "thought" things would be different after we married, .ran right through ALL the stop signs ->  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
I'm with Samwize: Having a kid doesn't fix anything. To the contrary, having a child adds a whole new dimension of stress.  Suggest you proceed cautiously before going down the path of parenthood, which is a huge responsibility.

I also concur, having a precious baby with a disordered woman is not a good idea, .I would seriously think about that one... .yes, think about it pretty hard !

Red5
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2018, 03:46:09 PM »

Addendum.  A lot of our stories of woe started when an unsuspecting non gets into a r/s with a BPD abuser.  I didn't know what I was getting into, not at all.  However, if you know ahead of time, and are here posting, and studying about BPD, the onus changes - and it is something in which you have to take greater responsibility.  We can collectively tell the future here.  I wish I had this resource and knowledge 20 years ago.  My wife would have been just a girl I knew.
Just saying.
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2018, 04:25:11 PM »

Excerpt
Addendum.  A lot of our stories of woe started when an unsuspecting non gets into a r/s with a BPD abuser.  I didn't know what I was getting into, not at all.  However, if you know ahead of time, and are here posting, and studying about BPD, the onus changes - and it is something in which you have to take greater responsibility.  We can collectively tell the future here.  I wish I had this resource and knowledge 20 years ago.  My wife would have been just a girl I knew.
Just saying.

Like Samwize, I had no idea what I was getting into.  Like Red5, I ran through all the stop signs.   Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  Most guys would have run for the hills; not me.  I was naive, yet you know about BPD and are here posting about it.  You're in the driver's seat, my friend, so think about where you're going.

LJ

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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
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