Son is asking for support - yet cannot describe it?

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

I have been posting on here for a few months now and have learned quite a bit.  Some of it is knowledge, yet difficult to put into practice; but I have found all of it to be helpful and am still exploring the site for the many helpful articles that are offered.

I approached my son (not in person, but texting) that I did not feel our relationship was the same and that it has significantly changed.  His uBPD girlfriend has been an issue for quite some time and a blowup did occur between my husband, myself and her about 3 weeks ago.  This resulted in us not being invited to our GS2's birthday party.  Apologies from myself as well as the uBPD girlfriend to us have been made yet things are still very strained.

My question on the board is this:  In his text he kept talking about wanting our support.  I'm not really sure what he means by that.  He said at the end of the day he wants everyone to love each other and everyone to get along.  The fighting has to stop, he said, and every just needs to get along.  He mentioned support several times.  I was very confused exactly what it was he was asking of me.  So I asked him this question:  "I'm not sure what exactly what you need from me and I want to be able to provide it for you.  Can you tell me what would it look like for us to support him?" 

He then answered with, "That's a tough question to answer.  I'll have to think about it."

Call me dumb, but I really don't know if he was just using the wrong word by saying "support," because he doesn't even know how to say what he wants. 

I understand he wants peace, no fighting, everyone to get along and love each other.  I would absolutely be ecstatic if that could happen!  However, his uBPD girlfriend is not the easiest person to get along with, which isn't surprising since she most likely has BPD, and her parents are difficult as well.  You can only do so much on your end.  The other end has to participate as well. 

Any ideas?

Thanks everyone,
Angie59

[Kwamina]

Hi Angie,

Discussions via text has advantages in some situations, but can also be challenging in others as you miss a lot of the non-verbal communication. This can make it difficult to interpret what someone exactly meant. Also, not everyone is that comfortable or skilled at expressing themselves through written communication.

Let's see if your son comes back to elaborate on what he means with suppoort. Otherwise, perhaps it would be easier to briefly discuss this one-on-one with your son in person. Do you think that would be possible?

I approached my son (not in person, but texting) that I did not feel our relationship was the same and that it has significantly changed.

How would you characterize your relationship with your son before he got involved with his fiancee? What are the biggest changes you see?

 His uBPD girlfriend has been an issue for quite some time and a blowup did occur between my husband, myself and her about 3 weeks ago... .Apologies from myself as well as the uBPD girlfriend to us have been made yet things are still very strained.

Three weeks is a very short period of time compared to the years of tension that went before. Were you expecting things to immediately or quickly improve after the apologies were made?

The Board Parrot

[Notwendy]

He may not have been as clear as he could have but he said he wants the fighting to stop.

You mentioned the other party has to try too. But you can't control his fiancée. You can control your end of this. By fighting I think he means drama. You don't have to engage in it or escalate it.

It might be best to just listen to what he has to say and try to understand his wishes before deciding what you want to do.  I'm sure he feels pulled in two directions with the conflict between you and his fiancée. He loves you both. Keep pulling and he may have to choose. Chances are - he will choose her.

He can't control her. He's asking you to take the high road here. You don't have to be a doormat but neither do you have to fight.

[Learning2Thrive]

My question on the board is this:  In his text he kept talking about wanting our support. 

... .snip... .

It’s hard to know for sure, but having been raised to be a parent/people pleaser myself, it sounds (to me) like he’s wanting you to radically ACCEPT his choice of fiancée.

 In other words... .for you to stop being offended by her and her actions and pointing out her faults to him. He has chosen her (right or wrong). It’s HIS choice to make and it sounds to me like he wants you to respect HIS choice whether or not you agree with it.

[Learning2Thrive]

I think No-One was on the right track in your last thread.

If you want to understand your son and why he is making choices that don’t seem to fit, you need to understand someone who was raised to be a parent/people pleaser. If he is (as I was), I can tell you that if you continue to push your feelings over his for her that he will almost assuredly make a choice... .and it is not likely to be you.

Reference:

   
Re: So Where Do We Go From Here?
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2018, 08:26:24 PM »
Quote from: Angie59
How is my son in other relationships?  That is hard to say because this is, believe it or not, the first girl he ever brought home to meet us.  So I believe he may have had other relationships in the past but maybe they didn't last very long?  Not sure.  This is the only serious one we know of.  Regarding how he is with other people and relationships, always well-liked, gets along great with his coworkers, had nice friends in high school and overall everyone seemed to like him.  He was on the quiet side in high school, but from what we have observed, everyone likes him and says he is easy to get along with.
Hi Angie59:
Someone who is quiet and easy to get along with is often a "People Pleaser".  Add in a parent with a temper (and anger management issues), and a "people pleaser" is easily nurtured. Quiet people are generally passive and don't want conflict.

I've often read on the relationship boards about the person with BPD or strong BPD traits who is very attractive.  Early on, there can be intense sexual chemistry.  Some people let the good looks and chemistry be the reason for staying in the relationship (at least until they can't take it any longer).  The chemistry can be like a drug.

Perhaps the person with BPD would rate a "9" or "10" in the looks department (out of a scale from 1-10), and perhaps the non in the relationship is several points lower on the attractiveness scale.  The non may have never dreamed of snagging someone who was so good looking on the outside.  Early on, they will hang on as long as they can, and close their eyes to the ugly personality traits, poor values and bad behaviors.  The looks and the chemistry keep them hooked, and they want to keep that at all costs.  Just sharing a possible perspective on what your son might see in his fiance. 

Just wondering if you ever read the information offered on "People Pleasers" within your thread at the link below:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=324580.20

You left that thread and started a new one.  Perhaps it could be of some value to revisit some things discussed on the 3rd page of that thread. (opportunities?)

I've read many of your posts about babysitting and feeling unappreciated and taken advantage of.  Could you be stuck with ruminating over these things?

You have power over and can choose the following:

1.  Accept that you are giving your grandson a gift, by babysitting for him.  He is too young to realize it, but you are doing something good for his welfare.  You could choose for this to be enough justification for babysitting (without feeling taken advantage of).  You can exercise whatever boundaries are possible, or you can choose to quit.  If you can't get beyond the feeling of being taken advantage of, you may need to just quit and accept that you won't likely be baby sitting again.

2.  You can talk to your son and express your desire for periodic "Thank You's" from him.  Have you had this conversation with your son? Were "Thank You's" a common practice within your household, while your son was growing up?   

3.  Take measures within your control to make babysitting more comfortable.  i.e. you won't get them to buy the chair you want, but you can provide portable additions to make a chair more comfortable/suitable for your husband. (therapeutic pads for back support, lift pad, etc.)  What have you tried?

Has your husband thought about quitting smoking?  Very few people survive years of smoking, without cancer and/or lung ailments.  Earlier, you mentioned the smoke residue in your home as a problem.  It sounds logical that the car is an issue as well.  So if you husband wasn't a smoker, am I correct in understanding that there would have been more opportunities to babysit at your house and to use your car to transport your grandson?

Although detailing a car would improve the situation with smoke residue in the car, unless your husband quits smoking in the car, it will quickly revert to the way it was before cleaning.

Smoking, or the residue from smoking is a problem for someone who has allergies, asthma or is just sensitive to smoke. I actually understand why someone would stay firm with boundaries in regard to even 3rd hand smoke exposure.  If you don't have allergies and are used to being around smoke, it might be hard to understand how others have problems with being around it.

Until you radically accept the things you can't change, you will be in constant turmoil.  You do have some choices, and perhaps some things you can do to make some small improvements.  "All or Nothing" isn't realistic. 

You previously mentioned getting involved in some activities just for you.  Have you thought about some possibilities?  Maybe start a hobby, join a club, take a yoga class, learn meditation, etc.?  It's never healthy to hyper focus on one aspect of life.  Mental vacations with activities you like can help tame anxiety.

[Notwendy]

Angie- texts are not the ideal way to communicate, as it is hard to see facial expressions and tone.

Can you tell me what it would look like for us to support you?

That's a good question, and his response was appropriate- I think I would have a hard time describing this by text. His "I think about it" might be that he doesn't know how to respond to that by text and also needed to think about it.

This is my take on this- I think you are walking on thin ice with him.

Spend some time reading the posts on the relationship board. What you will see is people who are dealing with very difficult behaviors while still trying to hold their families together.

Members are not supposed to post "run" messages to them. One reason is because it isn't up to us- the posters need to come to their own conclusion. This is the nature of dysfunctional relationships. Each partner is contributing to the issues and the person posting here needs to learn his/her part in it- it is part of the decision process.

Read the legal board and see what kinds of issues/expenses people deal with during the divorce/separation/child custody arrangements. Sometimes these decision are the right ones to make, but they have their own challenges and it isn't our place to tell someone to go through that or not.

Your son has not told you he wants to leave this woman. They have a child together and he is attached to her other child. He is trying to work it out with her and it is likely to be very difficult. You think she has issues with you and your husband, but BPD affects the most intimate relationships and the one that is probably harder is the one between your son and her. It may not make sense to you but this is what he has chosen so far, and your conflict with her is making things more difficult for him.

The easy way out for him, in the moment, is to cut you out of his life. You don't live with her, he does, which means he has to deal with the issues in his relationship 24/7. Given the choice- more peace at home or a relationship with you, IMHO, he will choose home and cut you off if the conflicts between you and his fiancee continue.

When my father was sick, I was scared for his health and welfare and was in conflict with my BPD mother. I also got a few "stop this " e mails from him.  It was also a difficult time for me too, I was grieving the impending loss of my father- which meant I was feeling hurt and sad. But there can not be two hurting people (victims) on the triangle. My father made what was an inevitable choice- in this kind of conflict- to appease my mother. After this, I do not underestimate the power of this kind of relationship. My father would cut contact with his mother, his siblings, and even his own child to keep the peace with her. When she is unhappy, she is very difficult, and yet, he chose her anyway.

Your son's relationship with his fiancee may not make sense to you but it is his choice. This text for "support" could also have been a warning message for you to take control of your behavior. My father expected that of us kids too. It didn't seem fair, we were kids, but we also are not disordered. Sometimes a desperate person leans harder on the more capable ones and your son might be a this point.

[Notwendy]

This doesn't mean you can't have boundaries with them, but also his fiancee may not like them.

If you wish to have a relationship with your son, I think it's also important to respect his boundaries and his right to make his own choices ( even if you don't like his choices).

I know you sound hurt that the fiancee is doing hurtful things, but if you approach your son from this place of hurt, he then is faced with two people to be concerned about.

Support often means being able to consider his situation and try to do something that doesn't cause more stress. It could mean that you need to take care of some of your own needs ( yourself) and approach him with less resentment. He may also not have the mental energy to give something back to you. The fiancee, children, and his job are probably a full plate.

How about the next time rather than define support, maybe ask him  " how can I most be of help to you? " If all he says is "stop fighting" then back off the issues for a while ,do something for yourself. If you continue to babysit, make that the contact you have with your GS. Ignore the rest. Birthdays and holidays are once a year events. Two days alone with GS and them out of the house is much better than that. Let the resentments about not being invited to birthday parties go. It's not worth it.

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

First I want to thank all of you who replied to my posts.  They were really thought-provoking, gave me some new perspective and very helpful!  I really do appreciate all of you and this wonderful safe place to come to in dealing with difficult situations.

First I will answer Kwamina's questions that were posed to me.  I agree totally with texting not being the best choice of communication.  As of now, my son has not brought up the subject to me about what support from me would look like.  My feeling he is he will not bring it up himself again.  Someone on this board once said that it takes every ounce of mental energy that one has to sustain a relationship with some who has BPD.  It seems to me that my son is in that position.  Yes, I would feel fine with bringing it up to him about his picture of support to him.  I will wait a bit and give him a little more time though.

You also asked about my son and my relationship before his relationship.  First of all, a big change was simply moving out of our house and getting a place with his uBPD girlfriend.  This is a step in the right direction to go on with your adult life.  I missed him terribly, so for me that was a big change.  We have always had a close relationship.  Talked about all kinds of things, small things, general conversation, his job, his feelings about the jobs he was in at various times, GD4 and her behavior issues, (back a few years ago) and just felt it was a good, healthy close relationship, mother to son.

Ways that has changed is he is no longer open at all talking about GD4's behavior any more.  He only paints her in a good light and we see differently.  We are present when outbursts and behavior issues come up but he does not discuss those with us anymore.  His relationship with his uBPD girlfriend is not discussed anymore either.  So that really just leaves his job that we do still talk about, and we still make general conversation, so it seems it has changed in the sense that it is more superficial conversation than what it was before.

I think that I was expecting things to be much better after the apologies were made Kiamina.  Again, there comes by upbringing and the way they handled anger, then poof, everything was okay.  I understand that everyone does not operate that way, even myself in this situation.  The wounds made were deep (going both ways), and I realize it will take time to mend.

Notwendy, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "he is asking you to take the high road."  Since this relationship began, little by little I have found myself being someone I do not like.  I don't like being filled with anger and bitterness.  I don't like being someone who yells at people and hurts them.  I want to have the strength to put aside my own hurt feelings and take the high road, as you put it, and do what is morally right and follow what my own values and beliefs are - doing the right thing.  It is hard, but I am striving for this as my goal. 

At this point, there is so much information and so many lesson that apply to me and will, I believe, serve me well and I need to make the time to read these and put in to practice what I learn on this board.  As I have said so many times before, I really need to do this and take the time it deserves, because I realize the importance of it.

You have all pointed out many places for me to refer to and again, thank you for that.  You are all great! 

I do feel my older son who lives here as well as my husband is tired of talking about it all.  They have not said that, but I have seen the looks and their attitude.  They must be in a much better place than me.  They seem to be able to tuck it all neatly into a little box in their head, put a lid on it, and get on with their life.  I would say they are in a better place than I am.  It has consumed me and now all I feel like doing is isolating myself.  I have stopped talking to either one of them about it.  This may not be a good thing, but I feel like, other than this board, I really don't want to talk about it anymore with anyone.  I feel like my constant talking about it may be getting annoying to some people, although they say it is not.  It's a lonely place to be, but I think this is best for me right now. 

Thank you all for being there!   

[Learning2Thrive]

Angie, what would it look like if you took your focus off her and them and put it on you?

 Who do you want to be? What if you are kind to yourself and take time nurture that wonderful person inside of you? I’m not talking about selfishness here. This is self care, self soothing, and personal growth. Whether a sport or hobby or yoga or meditation or some combination of these, I suspect you will find more joy from within if you can begin to nourish yourself.

[Angie59]

Great point Learning2Thrive! Yes, taking the focus off of them and onto me makes perfect sense, and to be honest, at this point crucial for me to do. I have let this take up literally 90% of my waking hours. It is also effecting my physical health. Too much time devoted to others and not enough on nurturing me, and getting back to who I really am!

[Turkish]

How old is your son and is this his first serious relationship?

[Angie59]

Hello Turkish!

My son is 28 and yes, this is his first serious relationship.

[once removed]

Ways that has changed is he is no longer open at all talking about GD4's behavior any more.  He only paints her in a good light and we see differently.

do you favor GS2?

do you think your son thinks you do?

[Notwendy]

Angie, aside from the fiancee's disorder, wehat your son is doing- moving out, having a romantic relationship and not being as close to you is part of his normal development. Even with a non disordered partner, you would likely find that his relationship with the partner is taking some of the place of his relationship with you.

For you son, he is adding to his relationships- experiencing something new. For you, it is a loss. This is normal too. The empty nest is a natural stage of life and it can be a tough one. I am a mother too. If we do our job well, our children move out on their own to their own families. We raise them to be independent, self sufficient, and to leave home and go out on their own. It's tough that our reward for years of that work is to have the empty nest, but it is also a stage we have to cope with. It's also an opportunity for self discovery and pursuing other interests.

He doesn't have a "void" in his life. His plate is full- a fiancee, two kids, a job. You have that void- and it is your responsibility to fill that void. Blaming this void on the fiancee and son isn't fair to them. Yes, there are many reasons she is not your choice for your son, I don't blame you for thinking that. But she didn't cause your son to grow up, move out, and change his focus from parents to peers. That is normal.

As a mother, I understand that children take up our time and focus. You've poured your heart into your children. It doesn't seem fair that the result is an empty feeling for you, a feeling of loss. I think all mothers experience this. I have observed many of my peers going through this and it is fascinating to see what they do. One has taken up painting and is very skilled at it, some have gone back to careers they left or stalled when they began having children, some have taken up hobbies like photography, or hiking. The possibilities are endless and entirely up to you. Maybe this doesn't take the place of missing a child being close to you, but it is possible to be happy and have interests with the empty nest. This is your task to discover and if you take the focus off your anger and resentment of the fiancee, you might be able to discover new interests too.

From what I have read on this board, your cup is still half full. Some posters are grieving that their sons have cut them off entirely and they don't see their grandchildren. This is tragic. Your son still seems to want to have a relationship with you. By just accepting and being grateful for that, instead of angry and resentful, you have a chance of keeping what you have. By constantly pushing your son for more, or to change, or to pay attention to your feelings, I think you are risking him putting even more distance between you.

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

I was just going over my latest posts and wanted to address a few things regarding comments or questions which were posed to me.

NotWendy, I do agree with so many things you said regarding the empty nest syndrome and filling the void it leaves in our lives, especially mothers.  I, however, do not feel that I am asking my son to fill that void for me.  I recognize these facts:

1.  I cannot control what goes on with my son and his family.
2.  I realize it is healthy for him to be out on his own and be independent.
3.  I realize the choices he makes are his to make (whether in my eyes if they are bad or good), still his to make.

What is hard for me to accept in the way of "support" for him and his family is this:  How does a mother look at the uBPD girlfriend when I know all the things I know?  I've said all of this before so I hate to repeat myself, but things such as cheating behind his back, (know this for a fact), still continues to go out with this person, neglects her children, and treats my son terribly.  I'm not even hitting on the hurtful things that have been done to myself and my husband personally. 

My therapist asked me to consider doing two things.  One was to apologize for the blowup we had weeks ago.  The other was to maybe ask her to go shopping, or to lunch or to the zoo with GS2 one day.  Her thinking is that it sounds like she has never had a "positive female presence" in her life. 

Maybe mentally I'm just not in the right place, but being able to do those things seemed like an insurmountable request.  I, however, in trusting my therapist did make the apology.  I took the next step a week or so later in asking her if we could go to lunch one day when she was free, and she accepted.  Okay great!  Not really. 

How am I supposed to sit across from this person at lunch knowing what I know about what she is doing behind my son's back (and yes, he has no knowledge of it), as well as what her actions are doing to the grandchildren?  Please - if someone has this answer please tell me!  I don't want to go to lunch with her or anywhere else because all I see in her is all the hurt and pain she has caused everyone in my family, and still continues to do so.  How in the world do you get past this?  I'm obviously not there.

Yes, I am very fortunate that I still have a relationship with my son as I know many on this board no longer have that.  It has been altered to the point where the main areas of his life, we no longer talk about.  He do not discuss his uBPD girlfriend and their life with me at all anymore as he does not want to be in the middle.  Okay, put an X on that topic.  When I mentioned something about GD4's behavior toward GS2, I heard him say under his breath, "Here we go with our parenting again."  Okay, put an X on that topic.  So what we have left is pretty much, how is your job going, nice weather we're having, etc... .all superficial stuff you talk to your neighbor about, not, in my opinion, a close family member.  So that is what I am referring to as the alteration in our relationship.  I don't like it because I don't feel the really important points of his life, he obviously doesn't want to share with me, but guess it's better than nothing.

To OnceRemoved, you asked if we favor GS2.  Yes we certainly do.  Our grandson's learning to walk was stunted until about 13-14 months of age because of GD4.  She is a bully and no one is corrected this behavior to this day.  Every time he pulled himself up on the chair or couch and would begin to take a step, if she came around the corner he would immediately sit back down on the ground because as soon as she saw him trying to walk she would knock him back down.  She gets whatever she wants and acts however she wants because she will throw the biggest fit you ever saw if she doesn't and they don't want to put up with it or take the time to correct her behavior.  So GS2 suffers for it.  He is half her size, half her weight, half her height.

My son, his uBPD girlfriend, and her parents are what I call Team GD4.  All four of them allow this to happen while our GS2 is getting hit, pushed down to the ground, things taken away from him he is playing with just because she wants them, etc.  We bought him a tricycle for his 2nd birthday.  It is hidden in their bedroom and he does not have access to it because GD4 keeps taking it away from him.  My son explained, "He will be riding it and GD4 pushes him off, gets on it, (which is way to little for her), and then GS2 begins to cry.  So whether than fight with her, we just put it up.  His words, not mine.

So we get it out when we are by ourselves with him on Thursday and Friday and encourage him to ride it.  He doesn't even want to get on the bike now.  Another successful bullying incident for GD4.

So, in view of all of this, yes, absolutely there is partiality.  With a 2-year-old helpless, defenseless little boy in the midst of this madness and cruelty, you're darn right we are partial!  How could you not be? 

[Kwamina]

Hi Angie59

I don't want to go to lunch with her or anywhere else because all I see in her is all the hurt and pain she has caused everyone in my family, and still continues to do so.

Then don't. If you don't want to do this or don't feel ready to do this (yet), you do not have to do it, this is 100% your choice to make.

Our grandson's learning to walk was stunted until about 13-14 months of age because of GD4.

I definitely understand your concern for your grandson. As his grandmother you of course want to see him safe and protected.

GD4 is just for years old. Though certain aspects of her behavior do sound concerning, her parents are the ones responsible for this continuing. She isn't your son's biological child, but he is raising her as his own so in my opinion, your son and his fiancée are the ones who are responsible for this situation continuing and not that 4 year old girl.

... .no one is corrected this behavior to this day.
... .
My son, his uBPD girlfriend, and her parents are what I call Team GD4. All four of them allow this to happen... .

Exactly, the adults in this situation are the ones responsible for allowing it to continue. Children cannot raise themselves so your son and his fiancée have a huge responsibility here. GD4 is a child. Your grandson might be helpless and defenseless, your son on the other hand is not, nor is his fiancée.

How am I supposed to sit across from this person at lunch knowing what I know about what she is doing behind my son's back (and yes, he has no knowledge of it)

Does your son really not have any knowledge of what's going on here? You've discussed this before and this is what you said back then:

Regarding my son and what he thinks about his uBPD's fiancee's behavior with other men, I don't really know.  I feel he certainly has pretty much knowledge of what may be going on, but does he know for certain that he is cheating on him.  No, I don't think so or he may just be in denial.  The pictures I spoke of are certainly out in the open on the tablet for him to look at if he wishes.  He has certainly know about each of the trips she took with other men.  The very fact that he made the comment he did to his fiancee when she left on this last trip with her male "friend" to the Caribbeans, when she told him she was going was "Well, that's great timing.  We just got engaged."  He had to have said that for some reason.

Has anything changed since then?

[Angie59]

Hello Kwamina!

Rereading what I posted in the quote, I did state he does not know for sure that she is cheating on him.  That has not changed.  Yes, he does know about the pictures, the trips, etc.  It is hard to figure out how he wouldn't know, but he has made comments to a family member that he does not feel she would ever cheat on him.  He has also confirmed to me that they do not have an open relationship.

[Notwendy]

Angie-your feelings of resentment are understandable, but they are not helping you or your son and his chosen family. Your feelings are mainly causing friction between you and your son. He's told you why he doesn't discuss certain topics with you - he doesn't want to hear about what a bully D4 is or how you feel about his girlfriend. Not that you should lie or be dishonest but also I think he has heard your point of view as indicated by his comments.

Still - he seems to be seeking some kind of relationship with you and you still have a chance to be involved in his life. I'm also surprised that the GF accepted a lunch invitation. This also means she wants to engage you. But I am concerned that your resentment makes it impossible for you to see anything positive about this family or their continuing interest in seeing you.

It is said that harboring a resentment is like swallowing poison and then waiting for the other person to die. It hurts you more than it hurts them which is one good reason to let it go.

How can you have lunch with her? As Kwamina said if you truly don't want to them don't. But here are two reasons you might want to : your son and your grandson. She is his mother and your son's fiancee. Can you find a way to make peace with those reasons?

As to the cheating on your son. I don't condone cheating either myself but this is a matter between your son and her. Being concerned about her sex life is crossing a boundary. If your son is concerned - then it is up to him to deal with it. Yes she takes trips and has risqué pictures. They are her pictures.

I'm concerned that by getting into the cheating and the parenting with your son and his fiancée is straining your relationship. You can keep doing what you are doing but you know what the results are - they don't want to discuss it or hear it. You could try something else to see if that works better.

If you do have lunch with her- ask her about things like her interests or hobbies. She's a human being- and surely there are things you don't know about her. I know you think she's a horrible person but few people are 100% horrible. She might also be anxious about having lunch with you. Surely she knows you don't like her. Yet she still agreed.

I'm not saying you have to like her or even be friends but if you can be civil to her it may keep the relationships with you intact.

[Angie59]

Hi NotWendy,

I appreciate what you have said, but having lunch with her, and as you said, doing this for my son and grandson, trying to get to know her, etc., is asking me to be fake.  I can't do "fake" very well. 

I do not discuss his relationship with her anymore.  That has been put to rest.  He knows he is in a situation where things are not right; his friends and other family members have told him so.  That is why he does not want to discuss it with me.  He knows this is all wrong. 

As far as my grandson is concerned, how can having lunch with her benefit him?  This is not a person who you can trust.  My guess will be that if I would meet her for lunch she will have her mom with her because she does not want to even be alone with me. 

I also do not discuss parenting with my son either.  How he can allow his own son to be mistreated in this way is beyond me, so we don't discuss this either.  I do not press or disrespect those two boundaries he has set.

I have been around her now for four years.  I do not see acceptance of the lunch invitation as wanting to be with me or get to know me and spend time with me.  It is a pacifier for my son to make him think that she is really trying and showing herself in a good light.  She does the exact same thing with her daughter, GD4.  After GD4 tells her she misses her and wants her to be at home more, does she stay home more?  Nope!  She takes her out to dinner for an hour or so and thinks she has fulfilled her obligation as a mother.  Then goes about doing whatever it is she wants to.  She lives as though she is a roommate there in my son's house.  These are not things I am guessing at or speculating about, I have seen it with my own two eyes.

The man she went on her trip with, had scantily dressed pictures taken in his bedroom, goes on "dates" with him, she said out loud on Mother's Day when she had to leave for work at the bar, ""Well, I need to make a plate for M."  She openly talks about him to the kids and around anyone like she is involved with him and my son is invisible.  I believe she has lost interest in my son 3 years ago when her behavior started changing.

I know I sound resentful.  I know I sound angry and judgemental even.  This is the way I see it and it is very difficult to see it any other way as it plays out before my very eyes. 

I know everyone on this board is trying to help me.  Perhaps the problem cannot be helped at this point.  I'm beginning to think that.   

[Turkish]

I agree that it would be hard to be fake.  Overall,  I'm glad that you've taken time and space to reevaluate all of this. 

I don't remember if I said this,  but my ex left me for a younger guy she eventually married.  The other man became my kids' step-dad. She started bringing him to school events,  and I had to hear how much the kids liked him.  This was the reality,  my reality,  or reality.  So I stuffed my feelings in order to be cordial for the sake of my kids.  I'll admit that while he was a college football jock 20 years my junior,  he was afraid of me.   

If I had gone non-linear,  it would have driven them closer together and done nothing to support my kids.  I hate being fake too! Yet I chose to do what I did in order to keep things peaceful,  for the best interests of both my kids and myself. 

[Notwendy]

I's a difficult choice. This woman is in your son's life and is the mother of your grandson. Having a relationship with them is going to inevitably include her. I agree it is important to not be fake, but a middle ground is being civil.

I think it is fine to not go to lunch with her if you don't want to. The problem is that you already asked her, and she accepted. You can decline but that could cause issues. Or you could just go through with it and eat lunch, stick to non emotional discussions, and be done with it. However, if you are going to be angry and unhappy, then the lunch may just be more drama.

The main point of this is that you choose. You either have lunch with her or you don't. Weigh your pros and cons of doing it and not doing it.

[Feeling Better]

Hi Angie,

I too get the fact that you don’t want to be ‘fake’, I couldn’t put myself in that position either.

I also agree with others in that, if you really don’t want to go to lunch with your son’s fiancée, then don’t. Don’t put yourself through that, feeling the way that you do about it, chances are that it won’t go well anyway.

You mentioned in an earlier post that your therapist had suggested the lunch or maybe a trip to the zoo or something that involved GS2. This is just my take on it, if it were me, I would opt for a trip to the park or the zoo with her and GS2, not so demanding as having lunch and having to keep a conversation going, the park or the zoo would be more relaxed. You could easily tell her that you would prefer that to lunch without offending her.

Another thing, I hope you don’t mind me saying, you seem to focus a lot on your son’s fiancee’s negative traits. There must be something positive about her, I know that it might be difficult for you to see that right now, but please try. If you could focus on one good thing about her it might help you to become more accepting of her.

Which brings me to acceptance, I remember giving you a link to Radical Acceptance in a previous thread of yours, and I know that many others have expressed the ‘acceptance’ word.

I know I sound resentful.  I know I sound angry and judgemental even.  This is the way I see it and it is very difficult to see it any other way as it plays out before my very eyes. 

Angie, once you truly accept that what is ... .is, you will find that you will no longer be resentful or judgmental.

I wish you all the best x 

[Angie59]

Good morning NotWendy and Feeling Better and to everyone!

Thank you so much for your responses.  I realize I sound resentful, bitter, angry, and so many other things.  I certainly don't like feeling this way and would like to get to the point of acceptance. 

I do want to point out to you, NotWendy that so many decisions are left up to son's uBPD girlfriend rather than left to me or my family.  By that I mean, most times my son comes over to our house (which is really not that often anymore), he brings either GS2 alone or both kids.  She chooses not to come with him.  When we ask about her, he has various reasons why she did not come along.  Sometimes it is simply something like, she had a bad day and just needs time by herself.  So regarding get-togethers, she makes the choice many times not to be with us.

I think a lot of the resentment and anger comes from 4 years of trying to include her, trying to show her how we feel and even verbalizing it into words - kind words, which at the time she seems to receive happily and gratefully from us.  Then it goes back to her avoiding  us.  Put simply, it feels like it has been all give on our part and nothing back in return on her part.  That is hard to live with.  I wish had the wits and grace about me to keep giving, but I think I'm running out of "niceness" here.  I really don't feel relationships are sustainable when one person does all the giving and the other does all the taking.  So where we are now has been partly my fault in "blow-ups" when my pot finally boils over and part of it is her fault by her actions of avoidance of us and exclusion of us. 

I know someone said to let the birthdays go if we are excluded or holidays etc.  This is also hard for me to do and hurtful as in the very beginning these were all celebrated together.  It wasn't always this way.  To deliberately be excluded from GS2's birthday is a wound that is going to take quite a long time to heal.  I think I took my T's advice and went with it, but didn't realize it is much too soon for me; not for the apology.  I needed to do that.  Lunch or get-togethers?  Too soon for that.  So I am not wanting to be around her just like she seems to not want to be around us.  Sad situation.

I understand the concept of doing things for my son and grandson.  I would do anything for both of them.  My question is, again, it is always give, give, give, and all take, and even then it never seems good enough for them.

The hardest part of all of this is the grandchildren for me.  There are many hard parts to it all - just as described above.  No one likes to feel like the proverbial turd in the punch ball all the time and that's the way my husband, older son and myself feel in get-togethers.  However, now with the bullying on GD4's part have become so out of control, combined with the level my anger and hurt is at, I will speak up when it comes to her bullying GS2, no matter if it is just my son and his girlfriend there or her parents as well.  Like I said, when a pot boils over, there is no where for the contents to go but out of the pot and things come out of my mouth because I just cannot take sitting there watching such injustices to GS2 take place.

On Friday, my GS2 and I were sitting at the kitchen table playing with Play-Doh and coloring on some paper with crayons.  When GD4 came home, she came over to the table and immediately took what GS2 was playing with out of his hands and he began to cry.  My son asked what happened to GD4 and she didn't answer him, all the while I am staring at her.  She then finally said yes, she did indeed take what he had because she wanted it.  I then spoke up and said, ":)o you know what it feels like to have your feelings hurt GD4?"  No answer.  Son said answer grandma.  She said yes.  I said you hurt GS2's feelings just now and if you keep doing things like that to other people you will not have any friends.  Do you want to go to school and have to eat by yourself or play by yourself all the time, because that is what is going to happen if you keep being mean to other people." 

Son again said answer grandma.  Do you understand GD4?  She said yes.  I stopped there, making my point and not daring to go further or I would never stop.  End result - when we got up to leave, GS2 still never got back what he originally was playing with. 

I want to talk to my son about this but it is an X'd out topic, so I will not.  However, knowing how much he loves GD4, he and his uBPD girlfriend are setting up a life of problems for this child and allowing this.  What is happening to GS2?  He will not even get on his tricycle we bought him for his birthday - shows no interest in it.  My son admitted to us she knocks him off of it so she can ride it, and he cries.  Solution:  They put the tricycle up.  How does that teach GD4 a lesson?  How does that make GS2 feel?  I guess when he sees the trike now he just looks at it and walks away even though GD4 is at daycare and we are alone with him, because he relates it to something negative. 

It's simply all too much to take. As I write this I have tears rolling down my face.  It is all too much and too painful - wounds too fresh, and they just keep on happening. 

[Notwendy]

Personally I'd be thrilled to have time with my father without my mother along. My father was more relaxed and more himself when she wasn't around. Your son bringing the kids to visit you could be seen as a gift of time with them without the added tension of GF being there.

I get that you are hurt. This is a difficult situation.

My BPD mother despises my fathers family. It's mutual. I enjoyed being with them and not have her there.

I assume they had to put up with her in order to have a relationship with my father and us. He's deceased now but my children and I are very close to the remaining family on his side and estranged from my mother's FOO. We get together without her and strangely she is furious that she's not included in his family get togethers- even though they have disliked each other for decades.

The GF has done hurtful things. So has my mother. But if anyone wanted to stay connected to my father - they had to choose to be civil to her. There is only so much you can do to protect your GS. Even if you can't protect him entirely your loving presence does make a difference.

If the pain and anger you feel is bigger than your ability to hang in there for your son and GS and come to some civil relationship with the GF - then that's the reality for you.

[Angie59]

Hi NotWendy!

All of what you had to say certainly hit home with me!  GS2 is much too little to tell who he will gravitate toward in his later years.  I certainly hope he is still a part of our family's life as he gets older. 

One thing that really scares me is this:  My husband and I are retired and are really wanting to travel a little before we are too old to be able to!  My husband and I have 5 years between us and we have a recreational vehicle that we take with us and have done this since our kids were small.  It is a great way to spend family time together and my kids have some great memories of this.  Now, however, it is only my husband and I and we are looking forward to continuing this as long as we can.

This would mean the days we are babysitting GS2 will stop since we travel out of state.  We are stuck in the Midwest here and like to go places along the coastlines by the ocean.  I feel I am abandoning him if we do this.  My logic says, "Hey, this is your time with your husband, a time that you need to take advantage of while you are both still healthy and able." 

My emotions say, "What about the little guy?  Will he even remember us?  My husband is really wanting to do this, probably after this upcoming winter ends, so we still have time.  He says we can always Skype, and if finances allow, come back home to see everyone, such as holidays, etc...   I'm just want to remain a positive presence in his life.  This makes me scared. 

Any comments on this?

[Notwendy]

This is just my take on this- I would say travel with your husband. Many posters here have encouraged you to create your own life separate from your son. This is a great plan.

We didn't live near my fathers family. We mostly saw them during school breaks. Having kids home from school all day was not something BPD mom liked so we stayed with them for a while during summers. You GS will grow up. I can't say for sure but chances are they will need an occasional sitter and may be glad for you to step in.

I didn't see my grandparents often . I remember them fondly.