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Author Topic: No longer in love. What does want? [Discussion of Christian Beliefs]  (Read 1035 times)
Jackie59

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« on: June 16, 2018, 11:15:39 AM »

Hi. I’m married to a BPD. I’ve done my research. She has hurt me so badly that I am no longer in love with her. I know I need to leave for my sanity and happiness. However I am a very religious person and I’m scared that God doesn’t want me to leave. Does anyone here have any Christian viewpoints on this?
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Jackie59

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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2018, 06:58:25 AM »

Are there any Christians on here who have struggled with what God wants?  My anxiety is so high. My wife is trying her best to control it and be nice. But it’s only an act. It’s the same cycle. I talk to her about how I can’t live this way anymore and she does a 180. I drop my guard every time thinking she’s really trying. Not long after it starts all over again with her being mean.  I’m at the end of my rope.
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2018, 08:44:22 AM »

There are people with different belief systems and many posters here are Christians. I don't think any of the tools on this board are incompatible with the ethics of Christianity or other religions with strong ethical systems.

The original 12 step programs were founded by Christians and have been adapted for people of all backgrounds - many have found them helpful.

A good read is an older book "love must be tough " by Dr. James Dobson. He is known for evangelism but he also has a PhD in psychology and draws on those principles as well. This book considers the idea of boundaries - having boundaries and sometimes not giving in to your partner does not go against Christian values - in fact it could be that this is what is needed.

You can learn from the tools on this board and many posters. I hope some will respond soon.
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BetterLanes
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2018, 12:59:37 PM »

Hi Jackie59. What Christian tradition are you in?

I think I am in the same place you are. I am a Catholic but also born again Bible believing Christian. I am currently exploring around the Catholic concept of annulments. I thought like you that God required Christians to stay married. But I also knew from the evidence of all the other blessings I have experienced in my life, that He didn't want me to be this unhappy for the remainder of my life.

I recently found out about BPD and found out that this might be grounds for an annulment. I'm investigating this at the moment and I had a nice talk with a Catholic priest at the weekend. As you know the Catholic church doesn't really permit divorce at all even in cases of adultery, abuse, etc. However the concept of an annulment is what is used instead because it says there was never a valid marriage in the first place. This includes grounds like failure to consummate the marriage and not permitting your spouse to practice the faith. According to some sources on the Internet that I am trying to confirm with some actual priests, a marriage can also be invalid because one of the spouses did not have the psychological ability to understand and consent to the marriage vows. It's stated quite vaguely in the canon law as "for psychic reasons" but I am led to believe this includes BPD and other personality disorders. Basically one (or even both) persons was not sufficiently mature emotionally to really take on the responsibilities of marriage. A marriage that is declared as not valid is called an "attempted marriage" which means basically you gave it a go but it was not ever really meant to be.  I find that concept very comforting and am trying to investigate it currently.

The nice priest I spoke to at the weekend said "God doesn't want you to live in a living hell". Whatever Christian tradition you are in I think he has a fair point there. The idea of an "attempted marriage" feels much more like the situation I have been in than the Christian marriages pictured in the books and sermons you'll normally see. Those materials would often make me feel in the range from annoyed to despairing because they assumed the partner was a reasonable, mature, Christian person that would communicate with you appropriately. Sometimes they would mention physical abuse and say well, of course if there is physical abuse you have to leave for your own safety. But what if there isn't? It's much harder then to know what God wants you to do.

The nice priest said that at least a separation is advised if your emotional and spiritual wellbeing is being harmed by the marriage. Separation is a perfectly valid thing in even the Catholic church - it doesn't mean you are saying that you can't ever reconcile (with appropriate help), it means the marriage is so damaging to one party or another that you can't be actively married right now.

Hope that helps - let me know if you want to know more.

BetterLanes x
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2018, 04:46:47 PM »


Welcome

I hope I can help you working through your Christian views and also learn useful information about this thing you are facing called BPD.

I'm Baptist... .fairly conservative Christian (I can go into more detail if needed).

I applaud you for trying to sort through what God wants.  I'm going to suggest you won't find a specific answer, yet we can discuss lots of applicable Biblical principles.

What kind of advice have you gotten so far?

What scriptures seem to be "tugging on your heart?

You've found a safe place.  We can help.

FF
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2018, 06:04:40 PM »

A lot of us have struggled with this. Can you tell us what has been going on? What are your ages, are their children, has their been infidelity or other issues... .what has been done to recover the relationship. What denomination... .etc.

It's a complicated question for Christians and the situation influences the matter greatly.
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Jackie59

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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2018, 06:25:21 PM »

I’m a southern Baptist. My whole life. I’ve been married for many years and emotionally abused most of the time. To the point it makes me not want her to even touch me. She’s also cheated on me since day one. My physical health isn’t too good. High blood pressure and sugar. But my emotional health is in tatters. I can’t do it anymore.
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2018, 07:07:28 PM »

She’s also cheated on me since day one.

Jesus was an extraordinarily caring person. But his teaching on divorce and remarriage was also firm: "What God has joined together let not man put asunder" (Mark 10:9). A sinful decision is often just as harmful to a person as the emotional pain.

The great challenge to the Baptist church in the face of divorce and remarriage is to love Biblically. John wrote, "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments" (1 John 5:2). In other words, the test of true love to people is not only the feeling of compassion in the heart but also conformity to the commandments of God in behavior.

The great challenge for you, your family and your peers is to mingle the tears of compassion with the tough love of obedience.

I'm sorry if its hard to go into details... .I'm sure you are beaten down pretty low to even be exploring this.

Has their been serial infidelity for years?
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2018, 07:17:17 PM »

I'm going to second notwendy's recommendation for Dobson.

Love Must Be Tough
Author: James C. Dobson, Ph.D.
Publisher: April, 2007
Paperback: 238 pages
ISBN-10: 141431745X
ISBN-13: 978-1414317458




It's not necessarily a book about BPD.  It does help Christians look critically at what it means to love someone.  That sometimes you have to respect their decisions, even when those decisions aren't respectable and also respect yourself enough to be clear and firm about what YOUR values will allow you to be part of.

Please... .if you get this book.  Keep it private.  Also keep private your involvement here.

What has happened recently that brought you to this board?

I'm glad you are focused on your emotional health.  How are you doing caring for those physical items you mentioned.  They are all connected to your emotional health.

FF
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2018, 12:17:40 AM »

Is your wife also a Christian? I'm guessing yes,  but still asking.  And have you brought any of these issues before a pastor or counselor,  or have you been suffering alone?
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Jackie59

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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2018, 05:15:45 AM »

Thanks to all who have responded. I don’t feel so alone now. My wife is also a Christian. She has people at church thinking she is so nice and sweet and the best wife and mother. I have two kids. One still at home. She’s emotionally abused them both. My daughter who loves at home is showing signs of BPD. I was also raised to believe I need to avoid divorce at any cost.

I’ve only been seeing a therapist by myself for about a year. I’ve also asked other doctors and a few trusted Christian friends about it. They’re very supportive. I was told by one that God loves me more than he hates divorce. The psychiatrist that I see is worried about my health. She asked if I can do it anymore when it gets really bad again.

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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2018, 05:43:48 AM »

Morning Jackie59,

Let me start by endorsing Formfliers suggested reading. It's a great book written by a Christian for Christians. It also highlights how prevalent infidelity is in the church. I personally found the fact that my W is a very devout Christian tough to cognitise her actions... .why can she not see this is wrong? It would appear even Christians are very apt at finding moral justification for their actions. The book takes a different approach from what you might expect from your run of the mill religious teaching of 'love them more'.

Like you, my wife's church friends see her as the picture of innocence and she has a couple of very special masks she places on when she's around her church friends... .even though her current affair is right under their noses. Like you I can see how she's twisting our little girls minds... .but never in public.

There are many many things bpdfamily can help you with. The weight of guilt is often causing the most emotional damage (which in turn causes physical damage). Loving someone doesn't mean you have to suffer for them.

Matthew 5: 11-12 - Blessed are you when others revil you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Romans 5:3-5 -  More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

Isaiah 30:21 - And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, "this is the way, walk in it", when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.

Isaiah 40: 30-31 -  Even youths shall faint and be weary, and young men shall fall exhausted; but they who wait for the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not be faint.

Lets give you some freakin' wings buddy so you can sore like an eagle. You're not alone 24/7.

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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2018, 07:12:58 AM »

Hi Jackie,

Just catching up on your thread... .I would also highly recommend the book Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend.  It was recommended to me by our couples therapist based on my initial individual meeting with her, and all of it is based on biblical references.  I found it very helpful as part of my initial learning to generally take better care of myself.

mw
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LongGame

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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2018, 07:43:18 AM »

Hello there! I have recently joined the forums but have been "watching" the site for the better part of a year.
I am married with (a lot) of children, and have been married to my wife for 20+ years (being vague in case she ever sees the forums too). I am a practicing, devout Roman Catholic. I did see a great post on the Catholic viewpoint from a member on the first page of this thread. At any rate though, the Bible's teaching is pretty clear regardless of denomination.
Things have been absolutely terrible for the last several years, this past one being almost unbearable. Wife is undiagnosed BPD. I have considered annulment, separation, the whole bit. My wife has screamed at me that she wants these things too. And yet, here we are, still married. Although living in separate rooms and almost having separate lives. It's hard.
The thing that has helped me the most is what is described in Jacques Philippe's book "Interior Freedom", which is to grow my interior life to the point where my validation and freedom comes solely from Jesus Christ. I am finding that I have indeed been codependent to some degree for many years. The only way for me to break this cycle is to find my identity apart from my spouse (and in Christ). In a certain way, the BPD has allowed me to do this. It exposed me for who I really am and is giving me an opportunity for Jesus Christ to heal me. Not her, me.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in paragraph 1534 that "Two other sacraments, Holy Orders and Matrimony, are directed towards the salvation of others; if they contribute as well to personal salvation, it is through service to others that they do so. They confer a particular mission in the Church and serve to build up the People of God."
This paragraph can apply to any denomination because it echos what Saint Paul says about marriage; that we are to love our wives as Christ loves the Church. He died for us, emptying Himself to bring life to us.
Before He died for us though, what did He do? Went into the Garden of Gethsemane and sweat blood. Prayed to His Father. Asked for the cup to be taken from Him.
Sometimes our marriages feel like the Garden of Gethsemane. Sometimes they feel like the Cross. In these times, the Father is close to us. Very close to us. And to our spouses. He is bringing about the salvation of the other in and through our marriages.
I try to remember our vows; in sickness and in health we say. I know my wife is dealing with a sickness, although many times it is hard to see because it is anger addressed at me. And in a certain way, too, I am dealing with my own sickness, my own brokenness.
By allowing this as an opportunity for me to grow my interior life and find "interior freedom" as the book above speaks to (I highly recommend the book), my wife in all of her brokenness is in fact drawing me close to the Lord, and my prayer is that my brokenness is doing the same for her.
If we join Our Lord in the Garden of Gethsemane, and fall to our knees before the Father, the Father will listen. We may have to do this many, many times. Daily, in fact.
I guess my point is this; we don't have to run and seek to escape the relationship if we have interior freedom. Of course, abuse may change things and as stated in other posts, separation is sometimes necessary. By and large though, our sufferings in all of this, and our spouse's sufferings, may be an opportunity to allow the love of Christ to be shown clearly to us.
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2018, 08:29:10 AM »

Jackie59


I'm glad you continue to post.  Your wife seems a touch like mine... .in that she seems to put a lot of effort into her "church face", yet lives quite differently (I would say hypocritically) at home.

Do I have that about right?


I'm not suggesting that you do anything by my questions below.  More of an attempt to "inventory" what has been tried yet.

Are you guys members of a church?

Does that church practice church discipline?

Does that church do "biblical counseling" or "pastoral counseling"?  (sometimes those are very different)

Have you "confronted" your wife using the Matthew 18 "procedure"... .brought in others and "taken it to the church".

I'll also second mama-wolf that the Boundaries book would be a good read.  Keep it private as well.  Likely best to discuss on here first how exactly you want to "apply" what you have learned in that book and the Dobson book.  

Neither one of those books are "BPD specific", so it is very likely we may change the emphasis of some of the lessons they teach... .just a little.

FF
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BetterLanes
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2018, 04:08:56 PM »

Hi Jackie59 and all the participants,

And welcome out of the woodwork LongGame! (Your post is great too.) I'd just like to pick up on something you said right at the end that of course, abuse may change things.

Jackie59 already said that he is abused beyond what he feels he can tolerate any longer. I expect most or all of the posters on this thread and board would be considered abused by the world's standards and have no problem at all getting a divorce for unreasonable behavior. I know I struggle with this issue as a Christian in particular. How do I recognise and quantify this and understand what God wants me to do about it? When your Savior, leader and teacher tolerated being betrayed, deserted, falsely accused without responding, insulted, spat on, mocked in public, whipped, and nailed to a cross to die, because He was doing God's will (and for our sakes), it's really hard to know where you should draw a line for yourself in terms of what you can tolerate and for how long, or even if you're entitled to draw a line for yourself at all.

It looks to me like the majority of the participants on this thread have already made a decision to stay at least for the time being, and I really admire that choice. But I feel like (and Jackie59 please correct me if I'm off the mark here) what Jackie is doing by asking specifically for Christian advice about God's will, and what I'm doing by chasing down this question about annulments so hard, is basically the same thing. I think we both want help with answering the question ":)id God really say we must not leave these marriages?"

Yes, I know who I'm quoting there, but I don't think that makes the exercise of asking the question invalid. A lot of people have had bad experiences with Christianity for not being allowed to ask questions. Eve failed in this situation of ":)id God really say you must not do this thing you want that seems good?" because she failed to correctly remember, understand, and apply God's teaching, and was therefore convinced to follow her own desires. I don't want to be like her in that respect, I want to find a good and accurate answer. I know that if staying in a marriage of the sort we all have genuinely is God's will, then He can equip us to do that in some way even if we don't know how. There are a number of good and Godly methods of being encouraged and getting help already suggested on this thread. But before making that call I guess I really want to know like Jackie said in his original title, if that's what God wants me to do according to His teaching.

Mods, please correct me if I'm wrong as a newbie, but I don't think it would be incorrect for us to post views in this particular discussion on whether we think God says you should stay in a marriage of this type. At the end of the day we are all at liberty to say yes, you other humans are right about this or wrong about this, and take those views and apply them to our situations. I don't think that's the same thing as telling a particular person they should stay in or leave their particular situation.

I hope that makes sense to you all. Again, Jackie, this is your thread so please correct me if this isn't a direction you want it to go in. But I think from what you have posted that it might be.

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2018, 05:23:52 PM »

This is my first post to this board. My wife has BPD and the behavior is getting progressively worse and harder to be around. My Christian beliefs and promises (in sickness... ) don't let me consider divorce. A legal separation would be a financial bust for me. We went on two weekend trips recently and in close quarters I could hardly bear her behavior. I told her that I would no longer take vacations with her. It's just exceedingly stressful. My blood pressure gets elevated when with her, goes to more normal when she's not around. She's able to mask the behavior outside the home as at church, but I think some people have noticed that something's wrong. My therapist recommends long road trips which I've have begun planning. The last few days she's been off the chart with anxiety including not sleeping at all one recent night. She's been seeing a therapist and psychiatrist for several years, but without improvement. She's got them both fooled. So no particular advice, it's just comforting to know others are struggling with the same predicament.
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2018, 05:43:48 PM »


If there is a place in the Bible where God says "stay in the marriage"... .please post it.


I'm not aware of a place where that is stated.  Certainly God values marriage and wants us to as well.

FF
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Jackie59

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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2018, 05:44:14 PM »

BetterLanes

YES!  Thank you for putting that into words for me!

Also yes we’ve been members of the same church for many years. It’s a small church and the pastor is very old fashioned.

I want to know why God would want me to suffer and be unhappy my entire life. My wife is so bad sometimes I could swear she’s possessed. She has all but broken me. I don’t love her anymore. I feel like I’m suffocating.

She will not admit fault. Ever. I’ve thought of telling her to get treatment or I’m leaving.
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LongGame

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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2018, 06:31:59 PM »

When I look at my situation and the similar situations on these boards, I can't help but think in terms of paradox. Like when Jesus tells us that if we want to gain our lives we must lose them.

We walk a fine line between virtue and despair. When does fortitude give way to masochism? That's a serious question that I ask myself daily, and maybe more often than that. I really don't know because it depends on the person and the situation. That's why we need to develop our interior lives and stay close to the heart of Our Lord. He gives us the strength we need when we need it and the wisdom to discern these things, along with the help of others who are close to Him.

Jesus doesn't say we must stay in these marriages; but he does say we shouldn't seek to marry another if our marriage is a true one; hence the post by someone earlier regarding annulments. For me, I wouldn't seek an annulment because I know my marriage is valid. Separating from my spouse for me would mean celibacy for the remainder of my life, unless my wife passes away. I am OK with this now. I am not scared of this now. A few months ago, I was scared to death of this thought. But developing my interior prayer life has brought me to the place where if I pan back and look at that Catechism passage I quoted earlier, I can see that my prayer life has grown and my fear has been cast out precisely because of the suffering that has come to me- in and through my marriage. I am being drawn closer to the Father in all of the muck and mire of a less than ideal marriage. Maybe that's the whole point.

I am not certain if I will separate. It doesn't make sense financially, or practically. If I need to though, I need to. So be it. But I will remain married to this person and I know my life must be placed in the hands of a God who will fulfill my desire for being loved.

He will fill this desire with Himself. He already has.
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LongGame

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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2018, 07:18:03 PM »

To clarify this last sentence of mine:

"He will fill this desire with Himself. He already has."

This doesn't mean that I have received this gift in its fullness. I still struggle to.
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2018, 04:11:40 AM »

Morning all,

I grew up Baptist in the UK and now attend a more progressive Church of England Church.

My understanding is:

- God takes no pleasure in divorce.
- Since many of us were married in his name and in the sanctity of his Church, making promises to him it would suggested our marital unions are ordained by him.
- God expects EACH OF US to do everything within our human capability* to preserve the sanctity of these marriages. (* Human capability being the tipping point of our mental health, or physical health, our safety & and that of the children in our care).

What does this mean in practice:

- We as nons have the obligation to educate ourselves, to sanctify ourselves of our legacy emotional injuries, to apply communication tools, to lead by example, to pray, to use wisdom in how to keep ourselves and dependents safe.
- We as nons have the obligation to separate ourselves from someone who is dangerous emotionally or physically
- We as nons have the obligation to show compassion (you are not required to put yourself in danger to show compassion to someone).
- We as nons have the obligation to provide an environment which best enables our SO to cooperate in a healthy marital relationship... .we are not required to enable BPD traits, since these are not aligned to a healthy marital relationship.
- God does not require us to accept nor tolerate behaviour that is not aligned to a healthy marital relationship... .He requires us to do everything within our control to correct it, and this could include removing ourselves and children from the family home enforcing a boundary that violence, infidelity, alcoholism is intolerable. It could be calling the emergency services if they threaten suicide.
- God requires us to armor ourselves with knowledge, self reflection and empathy.
- God does not require us to be nice, God requires us to be fair, just, Godly, honorable, compassionate, trustworthy, impeccable integrity, righteous and kind.


Proverbs 3:3-4 Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favour and good success in the sight of God and man. 

I have very little doubt that God works among the community of bpdfamily... .or maybe it's just the global spirit of human kindness... .for arguments sake you have been led to bpdfamily as Gods helping hand, his guidance, his word of direction. Come, feast, learn, find fellowship with people who genuinely understand your struggles. As FF says, there is nothing in the Bible that says you cannot leave a marriage, however who not flip the question to be, what more am I obliged to do by God and the promises I made in my marital vows before I have no choice but to leave.
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2018, 08:09:49 AM »

Hi everyone,

Jackie59's and my different but equally fundamentalist churches both appear to us to teach that divorce is not right in any circumstances. This must be based on some thing(s) in Scripture. Thinking about it, I think it's the verse Skip already posted that I have always understood to mean that a marriage is indissoluble. I'll post the whole context from Mark 10:

2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

- I've highlighted verse 9 (I hope), but this all applies to our discussion. In the context of verse 9, I'm a man (you know what I mean!). What circumstances would give me the right to put the one flesh marriage asunder? Does it count as putting asunder if I physically separate at all? What about if I separate but never divorce or remarry, as LongGame was discussing earlier? What about if I divorce my husband but never remarry?

This is fundamentally the situation where Catholics seek annulments, when they want to remarry after a civil divorce while remaining in the faith. If the original marriage was not valid you are considered to be not bound by this commitment. I'm of the opinion that it's doing things in the wrong order to make a human decision (divorce) and then get it ratified by God via the Church (annulment). I'd rather know what God says first.

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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2018, 08:20:24 AM »

Annulment being viable... .

Does that mean that God made a mistake when he bonded you in the original marriage ceremony, or that we made a mistake believing that our choice was sanctified by God in the ceremony?

... .and he further blessed that mistake with the gift of children?

The bible teaches us that it's good to go out and do work, it doesn't teach us that a husband and wife should hold hands till death do us part. Doing labour in the fields is one thing to grow food to nourish our bodies... .separating to do work on our emotional and psychological being must also be good and right? Do you agree?
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2018, 08:32:32 AM »

.

She will not admit fault. Ever. I’ve thought of telling her to get treatment or I’m leaving.

This is a good thought.  The Dobson book will help you organize this better in your head and coach you some on how to do it.

When I say things like "this is not a book about BPD"... .the biggest thing is that with BPD, many times you have to do lots of other stuff before they can "hear"

I would also point out this is Biblical... .but the proportion is a bit odd for us "nons".

How many times in the Bible do you remember God instructing us to put "truth before grace"? 

vs

How many times are we instructed to give "grace before truth"?

Hmm... compare this to SET?

Perhaps God was a psychologist?


FF

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« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2018, 09:48:35 AM »

For me, this sums it up as to if we should stay in abusive marriages from a Christian theological view (hint - the answer is no).

https://dannimoss.wordpress.com/articles/abuse-in-the-christian-home/does-god-want-me-to-stay-in-an-abusive-marriage/

And regarding cheating, Christ was quoted that it's justifiable before God to divorce because of cheating.  Does not mean God sees it as a good thing, just that it's acceptable in lieu of staying in a situation that is continuing to harm you.  In fact, the Greek word "Pornia" that is translated as sexual infidelity or immorality as quoted by Christ, is even thought to maybe mean a more general "perversion" by some translators.  I wonder sometimes if it's really Christ saying if your spouse is perverting the marriage and it's hurting you, you're justified in divorcing as a way to protect yourself if they just flat won't stop.  It's not done out of anger, hate, etc.  You do your best to love them still, and sometimes that's done by removing yourself from the situation and not continuing to enable their sin by your presence. 

JMHO - others will disagree, but my belief as a Christian is really captured in this post regarding divorcing an abusive spouse. 
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« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2018, 10:34:43 AM »

In fact, the Greek word "Pornia" that is translated as sexual infidelity or immorality as quoted by Christ, is even thought to maybe mean a more general "perversion" by some translators. 

Porneia (porne, pornos) is very much like the word "whore"... .literally, both refer to prostitutes. Metaphorically it's a broad derogatory term that even extends to greedy business practices.

I believe all the bible translations together are covered by this definition:
      adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12

metaphorically, the worship of idols

There at linguists that argue the broader metaphorical use existed at the time.   

So what was Jesus message? Was he prone to speak with this style (did the writers and copiers of the bible write with this style)?

It's an interesting observation. Thanks.
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2018, 11:06:47 AM »

This thread has tapped into some deep thoughts for me.  I do intend to think and consider the input more in detail.  But, I do feel like adding this much now.
I was in a long term, healthy, uplifting relationship with a (non-Christian) woman, not of my faith, for a few years before I married another.  I ended the previous relationship since I felt it was needed (obedience) to marry in my Christian faith. So, I did marry a woman in my faith, thinking I was doing what was right.  When we do right, I hoped for the best, especially for the most important thing we can do here, I must have thought I'd be blessed, and helped along.  

I must have been deeply fooled.  After getting married, I was in shock and depression for years.  At the time, I had no language or education with which to identify verbal and emotional abuse.   I chalked it up to continuous PMS, and then coupled it with my own sense of guilt, responsibility, duty, and eventually fear.  My FOG of marriage.  After 17 years of suffering, including years of laying awake at night with a secret prayer in my heart, pleading with God to let me undo just one mistake in my life.  A chance to correct one mistake - that of getting married.  In the following three years (been married over 20 now), I have gone on a long journey of self-discovery, education, meditation, therapy, withdrawal, recovery, obtaining a lot of learning about BPD, parenting, divorce, and life.

I can say that I have a profound compassion for victims of abuse now.  Including the quietly desperate men married to Dr. Jekyl - wives who gets praise and adoration for being the pious super-mom, and meanwhile the invisible cancer as a destroyer of souls behind closed doors.  

I can say God gave me freedom, and I made a choice.  I can't escape that.  I got married, stayed married, and have kids counting on me now.
I believe that God's laws for the "less-than-perfect" men, allows divorce not for the selfish, but for the victims of the selfish (re-reading that meaning into Mark 10 KJV).  I believe that divorce is permissible, and tolerated by God as a necessity since we live in a flawed, mortal world.  We are bound to make mistakes, and even without mistakes, we can still lay victim to the abuses of others.  God can't want that for His children.
If you found a child who was being neglected and abused, wouldn't one do everything in his power to rescue the child?

I feel as though I have walked with Jesus now, because of the agony marriage causes.  I have been to a corner of my own Gethsemane.
I found Buddha on my path also.  I believe that God inspires people of all walks to share wisdom.  I have gotten guidance on how to suffer, how to let go.
I also found lots of support from BPD groups and books, and therapy.  
I have processed some of my anger at having followed the advice to marry in my faith, when I was with a truly better person from outside of it.  I am working on my feelings of sadness and loss to consider that I wasted my life, at least my one opportunity to make the most important decision in that life - that of marriage.   I am taught that families are eternal - making the bitterness of my eternity colored with regret about marriage, making my eternal 'salvation' a view of endless suffering and disappointment.  My brainwashed and alienated D17 a living reminder of the pain possible in family life.  :)ivorce, it will not solve things I fear, but, it will incite my wife to worse acts.  

I view life as though on death row now (in a slightly positive way however).  Which means for me I try to use my time on earth to be good to others.  I value all the time I can get with my kids, do all I can to fill my life with something of meaning, and a little fun if I can squeeze it in.  In a lighter spirit, I try to live a very healthy lifestyle, with the aspiration of outliving my wife and have a few years of peace in the twilight of my mortal life.

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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2018, 12:26:58 PM »

Waddams, great articles! I will read some more of those.

Enabler, to clarify and get way too technical, this is the Wikipedia explanation of annulment -

Reasons for nullity
Certain conditions are necessary for the marriage contract to be valid in canon law. Lack of any of these conditions makes a marriage invalid and constitutes legal grounds for a declaration of nullity. Accordingly, apart from the question of diriment impediments dealt with below, there is a fourfold classification of contractual defects: defect of form, defect of contract, defect of willingness, defect of capacity. For annulment, proof is required of the existence of one of these defects, since canon law presumes all marriages are valid until proven otherwise.

Defect of form: If the marriage ceremony is invalid (e.g. two Catholic persons being married outside of the Catholic Church) [BL notes: It is trivial to fix this one, friends did by having the marriage blessed in the Church.]
Defect of contract: If it was not a marriage that was contracted, such as if there was a defect of intent on either side. This can occur if either party lacked the intent to enter into a lifelong, exclusive union, open to reproduction. In the Church's understanding, the marriage contract can only be between a woman and a man. [BL notes: This one is reasonably commonly known as the example of entering into the marriage with the intent not to have children.]
Defect of will: Because of "mental incapacity, ignorance, error about the person, error about marriage, fraud, knowledge of nullity, simulation, conditioned consent, force or grave fear".[BL notes: The footnote link here is www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/marital_consent.htm which specifically mentions personality disorders and has more detail of this.]
Defect of capacity: If either party were married to another and thus unable to enter into the contract. Also, certain relationships of blood render the parties unable to enter into contract. [BL notes: This is basically legal stuff.]

- An annulled marriage is known as an "attempted" marriage, and the children are considered legitimate.

God obviously can't make a mistake, as you rightly point out. What an annulment essentially means is that at least one of the parties was not in a position to legitimately enter into a marriage at the time of the marriage ceremony, or did not actually want to. The simplest example is that one of the partners was already married and concealed that fact. The ceremony would go ahead unless God miraculously intervened or someone spoke up at the provided opportunity. The couple could go ahead and act in every way as a married couple. But it wouldn't be a valid marriage. I know that is a legal as well as a religious example, but the point is a marriage ceremony could take place and appear valid to the observers but not actually be valid.

I should point out here that annulments are not generally considered to be for normal people in normal marriages. The situations described are often very odd and/or medieval. People do try to push the boundaries and there is a whole tribunal system set up for the purpose. It's a pretty extreme option. Also, as you can see, the system has gone a long way beyond the teachings of Scripture into some pretty intricate detail which I wouldn't know how to refer back to the Bible.

If and when I find out from my contact more information about annulments and BPD, I promise to start another thread where interested parties can discuss that. I know it's not a solution that will help the OP Jackie59 since non-Catholic churches don't have this concept. I do however think it's interesting to note the use of this concept to provide a solution for obviously invalid marriages in a church that firmly believes divorce is not permissible.

BL
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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2018, 12:46:57 PM »

After reflecting on this a few moments, I had a few more thoughts come up.
Let's play with words.
Church - a hall or building, leadership, a priest, teacher, or minister, written or colloquial laws, canon, dogma, authority, financial reserves, membership, fellowship, communion, organization, ordinances.  You go to church.

Religion - spirituality, beliefs, traditions, teachings, connection and direction with a higher being.  You have religion.

I'm a church-goer, but more important to me now is that I have a spiritual life.  I also am pragmatic.  So, if my church, not religion, teaches me to do something harmful (i.e. stay in an abusive marriage), I'd strongly question my church, and likely keep my own council.  Churches advocate and practice marriage by different methods, but if the canon perpetuates a harmful practice, it seems it would be time for the membership (individual) to decide, or act, otherwise.
Now, if your deeply held beliefs, character, and your religion guides you to do something, then by all means, obtain, hold to, and suffer that if needed. 

I think we all have to face whether it's an external or internal reason that we eschew divorce.
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