BPD sibling lives with enabling parents. Not sure how to change things.

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hello. This has been a long time coming. I have a sibling diagnosed BP way back when he was 17. Years ago, I remember an updated diagnosis of BPD/Schizophrenic get tossed out. I can't confirm this, I never talk about the illness with my brother and we NEVER discuss it together as a family. My parents and I discuss it (as I bring it up and want something to change) but my sibling isn't aware. I am at the point where I feel the need to break the silence. My parents rang my doorbell recently at night, fleeing their house due to my sibling, "not stopping" according to my mother and my father gets in his face to attempt to get him to stop screaming. My mother is afraid my brother, will, "beat my father up" although she maintains, "he's not violent."

There's a great deal of shame in my family, there's denial and enabling going on with my parents. I think I am finally at my limit as the behavior is starting to impact my child. I myself are tired of the abuse myself. I attended a NAMI family-to-family class a few years ago to get a handle on things. It was helpful. However, not much has changed and the disease is progressively getting worse, these are the words of my mother. I am currently reading, "How to Stop Walking on Eggshells." What a great book!

Whenever I do call my brother out on his behavior by simply asking what his role was in the current situation he is complaining about, he points the finger at me and complains of my behavior and that I am acting like a therapist, judging him, etc. There have incidents multiple times a year, throughout the year, holidays are always catalysts. Usually, it's a misunderstanding about something and results in some kind of verbal attack in person or via text.

I have a son. Lately there have been a few instances where my brother gets angry at my child or starts saying to him, why are you acting this way, why do you have to be like that. He speaks to him like he's an adult. It makes both my husband and I uncomfortable. There have been arguments in front of my son with my brother yelling, yelling at my parents, etc. Not behavior I am down with. I already am undoing generations of damage by handling things in a loving, caring supportive manner with my child. My parents did the best they could I guess based on the abuse they endured.

I feel for my brother because we came from the same house. I know the challenges I had to overcome myself. I am not sure how to help him anymore. Over the years I have been supportive, he has acknowledged this. I rarely challenge him, sometimes I will ask, why don't you get a job? I can't sit on the phone everyday and listen to him complain. Usually, a holiday comes along and my parents expect me to sweep all the feelings under the rug and come over. I've been staying away. I told my brother something needs to change and I'm not OK with the treatment and abuse. This of course he feels is abuse towards him.

I talked to a social worker. She feels an intervention is necessary. My mother has felt for the past few years, his medication needs adjusting but she will not mention it to him fearing he will blow up and she'll hear about it as he lives there. Sometimes he will stay in their bedroom complaining into the wee hours of the night. Oh, that's right I have a father... .he stays quiet most of the time, but when I get him alone and ask what he thinks, he does feel my brother has been OFF and manic for quite some time.

I wish there was a way to discuss this in a loving caring manner. I'm not confident enough to address this in person with him. He is a large guy and I am tiny. One time he followed me getting on my case about something and he got really close to me and my son, my son was an infant at the time, I pushed him back away from me (something I never have done, maybe out of instinct as I felt threatened) he grabbed my arm and said, I'll F@#$ING break you arm with crazy eyes looking at me. He let go... but it made an impact.

That's all I have right now. Thanks.

[BabySister]

Hello. This has been a long time coming. I have a sibling diagnosed BP way back when he was 17. Years ago, I remember an updated diagnosis of BPD/Schizophrenic get tossed out. I can't confirm this, I never talk about the illness with my brother and we NEVER discuss it together as a family. My parents and I discuss it (as I bring it up and want something to change) but my sibling isn't aware. I am at the point where I feel the need to break the silence. My parents rang my doorbell recently at night, fleeing their house due to my sibling, "not stopping" according to my mother and my father gets in his face to attempt to get him to stop screaming. My mother is afraid my brother, will, "beat my father up" although she maintains, "he's not violent."

There's a great deal of shame in my family, there's denial and enabling going on with my parents. I think I am finally at my limit as the behavior is starting to impact my child. I myself are tired of the abuse myself. I attended a NAMI family-to-family class a few years ago to get a handle on things. It was helpful. However, not much has changed and the disease is progressively getting worse, these are the words of my mother. I am currently reading, "How to Stop Walking on Eggshells." What a great book!

Whenever I do call my brother out on his behavior by simply asking what his role was in the current situation he is complaining about, he points the finger at me and complains of my behavior and that I am acting like a therapist, judging him, etc. There have incidents multiple times a year, throughout the year, holidays are always catalysts. Usually, it's a misunderstanding about something and results in some kind of verbal attack in person or via text.

I have a son. Lately there have been a few instances where my brother gets angry at my child or starts saying to him, why are you acting this way, why do you have to be like that. He speaks to him like he's an adult. It makes both my husband and I uncomfortable. There have been arguments in front of my son with my brother yelling, yelling at my parents, etc. Not behavior I am down with. I already am undoing generations of damage by handling things in a loving, caring supportive manner with my child. My parents did the best they could I guess based on the abuse they endured.

I feel for my brother because we came from the same house. I know the challenges I had to overcome myself. I am not sure how to help him anymore. Over the years I have been supportive, he has acknowledged this. I rarely challenge him, sometimes I will ask, why don't you get a job? I can't sit on the phone everyday and listen to him complain. Usually, a holiday comes along and my parents expect me to sweep all the feelings under the rug and come over. I've been staying away. I told my brother something needs to change and I'm not OK with the treatment and abuse. This of course he feels is abuse towards him.

I talked to a social worker. She feels an intervention is necessary. My mother has felt for the past few years, his medication needs adjusting but she will not mention it to him fearing he will blow up and she'll hear about it as he lives there. Sometimes he will stay in their bedroom complaining into the wee hours of the night. Oh, that's right I have a father... .he stays quiet most of the time, but when I get him alone and ask what he thinks, he does feel my brother has been OFF and manic for quite some time.

I wish there was a way to discuss this in a loving caring manner. I'm not confident enough to address this in person with him. He is a large guy and I am tiny. One time he followed me getting on my case about something and he got really close to me and my son, my son was an infant at the time, I pushed him back away from me (something I never have done, maybe out of instinct as I felt threatened) he grabbed my arm and said, I'll F@#$ING break you arm with crazy eyes looking at me. He let go... but it made an impact.

That's all I have right now. Thanks.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi BabySister, 

Welcome! You've come to a great family that will understand and support you. We've each been in very challenging places with our pwBPD, and yours sound's quite intense!   I'm really glad that you shared such an informative first post with us.

There are a couple of things that stand out to me from your post. It sounds as if the potential for physical harm is there, would you agree? Does anyone in your family have a safety plan in place just in case? If he is living with your parents, do they have a plan in place?

I'm glad you are getting help from the book you're reading. There's a lot to be gleaned from those pages. What would you say has been most helpful to you from what you've read?

Looking forward to hearing more from you. Please jump right on in to reading other posts and offering your thoughts. It's how we learn from one another and encourage too.

Wools

[BabySister]

Hi Wools,
That was a lot for me to write. I am very happy to get your reply.

I agree with you, I am super concerned about the potential for physical harm. This is why I am finally making some moves. Last time we were at my parents house, my brother was VERY manic, hands shaking, talking a lot, getting really close to me, getting really close to my son. If my son is tired, I am afraid he may swat my brother away and who knows what kind of response will follow! There is NO plan. My mother always says, he's not violent, but in another breath, she'll admit she's afraid of him. When I mention I am not OK with how he's been treating my son, she says, he's crazy about him, he's fine with him. Denial! When they showed up at my house, it was like a cry for help. She wanted me if she texted me a code word to call the cops if she couldn't do it herself! Then when they left my house, she says, "I wasn't here." I should have said, no you were here, no more secrets!

Great question about the book. The most helpful part of the Stop Walking on Eggshells is separating the BPD from the non-BP and also learning what is going on in the pwBPD minds. Helpful reading the proper responses. It's making me feel stronger and more confident in my decision to stop taking this abuse.

Thank you for the warm welcome! Look forward to chatting more.
Thanks!

[Turkish]

BabySister,

I'd like to join Wools in welcoming you to the family and I'm glad you reached out for support.   

It sounds like your brother is getting more aggressive,  yes? Even if you mom and dad enabled him,  it sounds like things are getting worse if she reached out to you secretly.  She trusted her gut.  Trust yours,  especially given the safety of you and your child. He's your brother and you love and care about him,  but love doesn't preclude you and your son being safe. Here is a safety plan:

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety_first.pdf

How old are your parents,  elderly? Was the social worker from Adult Protective Services or a similar agency? It was wise to reach out.

In addition to our concern about your safety,  there are communication tools which can help reduce conflict. There is a link to a discussion at the end:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

That being said,  I don't blame you for a minute going momma Bear and pushing him in that incident. 

[BabySister]

Hi Turkish,
Thank you for the resources. I checked them both out, need to look at the safety one in greater detail.
My mom is mid 70's, dad is close to 80. The social worker is someone I've visited personally in the past who knows my history and family history. I reached out to the woman who led the NAMI course the day after my parents showed up at my house. Her suggestion was either, call his Dr. doesn't matter if he's been there recently OR call the police but ask for someone trained in dealing with a person in this state of mind. I didn't do either. Not sure it's my place to call his Dr. He's a grown man.

I'm not sure of my next move. I would appreciate any advice anyone can offer.

I'm starting to feel the pressure to just resolve it, like it's mine to resolve. The other day my mother said, just resolve it!

I've communicated many things to my mother over the past few weeks, she has communicated things back to my brother about my concern of safety and that I don't like the things he's said to me. He hasn't taken accountability, basically chalks it up to, we've both said hurtful things to each other and he'd like things to be better between us in the future. What I said to him is I'm not OK with this treatment and abuse from you, this is what's hurtful to him! I've stated something needs to change. He did text me that he misses me. I responded and said I miss you too, love you and want the best for you. He called me a few days ago... .I haven't called back. I'm hesitant. Not sure what to say. Do I just go for it and address it?

The social worker suggested I make a list of all the incidents with my hubby that we aren't comfortable with and maybe start with my parents. Let them know we are both not OK with the behavior and won't be coming over until he's properly medicated. Then sit down with everyone and discuss it. I can't even visualize this. My parents do not want to change.

I already had my mother blame me for ruining their weekend a few weeks ago when I took a stand and texted my brother that I'm not OK with the abuse. He wouldn't shut up after I sent the message. So in her eyes, things are mine to just sweep under the rug at this point. He's expressed wanting things to be better, he's calmer so it's time to get together.

Ugh!

[Turkish]

So your mother by saying "just solve it!" Basically is saying "we and your brother aren't going to change so it's you who has to change." Not to mention invalidating you.  Is that how you interpreted it?

[BabySister]

I definitely see it as US vs. me for sure. My brother has stated if we don't resolve this soon, I will have a long standing problem with them, not him! It's really upsetting to read it like that but you are correct, "we and your brother aren't going to change so it's you who has to change." and it does totally invalidate me.

I know it's not for me to change it. I laughed at her and said, like it's mine to change! Let me waive my magic wand!

Last year when I attempted to take a stand and I blew the whistle on our holiday plans as it was taking place in an exclusive, members only type of place and my BPDbro was angry, raging and manic... .I let my extended family know about it and it got called off. That was a very big deal for me to do. I was taking a chance at my parents being pissed at me.

I do feel like I don't matter in a way. I'm the most important, least important person in the dynamic as they want me back. He wants my ear and my presence. They want to see my son and me and just continue on.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again BabySister, 

It's hard to feel invalidated, isn't it? And then to also be held responsible... .where can one find a safe place emotionally in all this? The safe place will be found inside of yourself as you begin to set those firm places of saying no as you have been. Good for you! 

Turkish has shared some excellent questions with you, and I'm glad you are thinking about them. The safety resources link is very good and one we recommend a lot. I think if you can take step one to start a plan you will feel empowered. Typically the intensity of the situation eases and we put aside the danger and say we'll get to it later. I want to encourage you to even do something simple like have a code word set up that you or your parents/husband can use to indicate danger or whatever you define it to be. For my kids, we used the first initials of their names and it happened to spell 'S am.' If they ever called and said Sam needed a ride, it was our code word that they needed help.

It also sounds as if there's triangulation going on if your mom is repeating things to your brother.
  Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation and Guilt (FOG) Do you think there is any possibility of her not sharing your safety plan with your brother?

I agree with you that I'd feel awkward about calling his Dr. I don't see any harm in informing the police though. With Alzheimer's patients the family is encouraged to let the authorities know in case of trouble so they know who they're dealing with.

So glad you are keeping your son safe! 

 
Wools

[BabySister]

Hi Wools 
It's very hurtful being invalidated. I'm very upset with my parents... .although I put myself in their shoes and understand how difficult this is. They have allowed it and enable him. I've been explaining to them, it's OK to let him know we are not OK with being treated like this. He needs to know it's not alright, otherwise it's endorsing it. I get so angry how powerless they choose to be.

Yes, my mom communicates to me for my brother. I checked out the link on FOG. That is definitely happening, there's a lot of info on that page. Will check it all out. That Emotional Blackmail book is quoted multiple times in the Eggshell book and it always rings true. It will probably be a tough read but I will check it out.

My mom will definitely NOT share details on a safety plan with him. No way! She is only repeating things to try to resolve our differences dancing around the real problem. She will say, don't send nasty texts to your sister. But she won't say, I don't think your medication is working properly, you've been off! She just wants us communicating again. She doesn't like being put in the middle. I say she throws herself in the middle. Let him reach out to me. I told him I want a change. Then she asks if he can come to my house when my parents babysit my son on an occasional date night. Unbelievable. I let it slide a week or 2 ago and let him come as my mother will start saying I am using my son as a pawn.

The cops have been to my folks in the past. I think what your suggesting is to give the cops a heads up for future reference right?

[Turkish]

Good for you sticking to the boundary of him not being around your son when you are not there.  If he is unstable enough to assault you holding your baby then he isn't safe to be around your kid unsupervised. We can help you work communication strategies to reduce conflict, but the issue of safety is paramount.  It is they who are using you and your kid as pawns and blaming you for the behaviors of a grown adult. 

[Panda39]

Hi BabySister,

This is a little bit outside of the Safety conversation (which I think should be your number one priority, particularly in terms of your son), but I wanted to share the Karpman Triangle with you because I see this dynamic going on between you, your parents, and your brother.

Link to more on the Karpman Triangle... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

It sounds like you all have been doing this dance for a long time, I hope the information is enlightening.  After coming up with a safety plan you might want to look at how you can get off the triangle I just share this with you now so you can see some of the pattern your family are engaged in.

And yes you might want to reach out to the police before there is an incident with your brother, find out what their recommendations are for your parents situation.  I also want to add that if things escalate or your parents are fearful or things become physical do call the police... .they are professionals and at the very least could intervene and help de-escalate things or if things don't improve get your brother into an emergency room where he can start to get some treatment.  Calling the police on a family member is hard but a "crisis" can shine a light on a situation and the proper professionals can then get involved.

Panda39

[hellebore1]

Yup.  Sad to say I think the only thing that's going to work here are some really hard boundaries for you to set.  As in, tell your parents you refuse to be the person responsible for this dynamic any more and if they won't take steps to set boundaries with your brother you'll be seeing them a lot less, as you don't want your child exposed to this toxicity.

Then do it.  Your child MUST BE your #1 priority.  If you're even a little afraid your brother may injure your child you MUST keep him away from him.  

I understand you'll then be concerned your brother may hurt your parents, and as a person with a severe uBPD sibling myself I do understand what's at stake here.  My uBPD sibling caused our mother severe emotional and mental distress for years and years.  Things finally only really improved when I removed myself from the situation and told her she had to get help.  Things were much harder for her initially but having to deal with uBPD on her own and without my help meant she finally did get the counseling she desperately needed.

uBPD is now living on his own and somehow holding down a job and Mom has finally learned healthy boundaries.  I do talk to her about him and the boundaries - my own bright line is that I will not knowingly be in the same room with him unless he's seeing a therapist.  That hasn't happened so I haven't seen him for 15 years.  

Staying tuned. <3

[BabySister]

I appreciate all of your responses so much. Thank you!

I'm not sure if it was clear in my last post, I am allowing my BPDb to see my son when my parents are at my house babysitting only. I gave into that. It's once a week. I guess I wasn't ready for a WAR with my mom... .should I see this as a concern too? My mom and I did have it out the day I agreed he could come. I said many things to her. This is how it goes, he stops over for about 15 minutes and I've expressed concern in advance that my mother is NOT to leave them alone and WATCH and LISTEN to what he says to him. I haven't been to their house and have not left my son there as the very last time I left him there, I felt uncomfortable and told myself I would not do that again.

To give a little more context on my BPDb current status, the latest blow up was due to an incident back in April that my BPDb subjected himself to and he spiraled from there and expected me to around whenever he wants me to listen. I'm sure he is a bit calmer as my mother has been saying. "It's normal for their house" she recently told me I don't feel great about him coming over especially in that I asked for a change in his behavior and if he's allowed access to my house when I'm out, the only motivation is that he's not allowed to see me. I did call him back and leave a message as he called me 2 days ago. I think I may be ready to talk to him on the phone and address things calmly, without emotion. I may give it a try.

Panda39,
You are correct in this dance being done forever! Thank you for the info on the triangle and I like the idea of getting into the middle of it. These resources are helping me realize I need to take the emotion out of my feelings and communicate my needs and set the boundaries.

hellebore1,
The pain he mostly causes emotional abuse and mental distress! He's going to send my parents to early graves if something doesn't change. That is a long time to not see your brother, wow! I hear you on seeing them a lot less. That's what's been happening. It's very sad. I feel like I don't parents.

[BabySister]

Need to correct this paragraph and separate into 2 paragraphs:
To give a little more context on my BPDb current status, the latest blow up was due to an incident back in April that my BPDb subjected himself to and he spiraled from there and expected me to around whenever he wants me to listen. I'm sure he is a bit calmer as my mother has been saying. "It's normal for their house" she recently told me.

I don't feel great about him coming over especially in that I asked for a change in his behavior and if he's allowed access to my house when I'm out, the only motivation is that he's not allowed to see me. I did call him back and leave a message as he called me 2 days ago. I think I may be ready to talk to him on the phone and address things calmly, without emotion. I may give it a try.

[hellebore1]

It's hard to convey the complexity of these difficult relationships in this medium!  My only concern might be whether you can trust your parents to stop your brother from hurting your son.  If they're as boundary-free as they sound, this might be a problem.

More about my own situation... .IIRC I linked the longer version above, here it is again.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325477.msg12971917#msg12971917

When my uBPD half brother "A" moved in with my mom, I was so sick of his manipulations that I told her I wouldn't set foot in her house as long as he was living there (we're about 12 miles apart.)  Then I did it.  For ten years.  I mean not one time did I go over there.  If she wanted to see me we would go out to a restaurant and she was always welcome to come to my house.

Part of it is how phobic I am about dealing with A b/c he abused me, my dad, our family so severely for so long (I wonder if he might have more than one mental illness, he's so bad, but anosognosia is in the picture so I won't ever know.)  Part of it was that I thought my going NC might actually make A think about counseling (ha ha ha) but I admit a lot of it was calculated to force my mother to face the problem.  :)enial really isn't a river in Egypt.  For decades she absolutely refused to admit there was anything wrong with A, which meant of course he was allowed to wreak havoc and spoil holidays and threaten me and embarrass me in front of people, which is particularly tough when you're a teen.  (I understand now he's mentally ill and that I can't blame him in the traditional sense for so profoundly affecting my childhood, but I admit there'll always be a part of me that won't ever forgive my parents and especially my mother for failing to protect me.  I'm quite open about that even with Mom but we can't go back and reinvent the past and she went to counseling and is trying really hard, so I try not to come down on her too hard about it.)  

The entire ten years I was willing to talk to my mom about the problem, reinforce her sense of reality - for years A had her convinced she was an abusive monster, she simply isn't.  She finally really wore down under the strain of living with him and dealing with the illness by herself, as A ran off our other family a long time ago accusing them of "abuse"  (for the usual reasons BPD people do these things... .anything that isn't giving them what they want is "abuse."

Drop me a DM, though I'll also check the thread here, if you want to talk.  Helping my mom accept reality and helping her get help dealing with A is the hardest thing by far I have ever done.  In my long bio above I talk about how she threatened to disown me for marrying DH... .man oh man did she do everything in her power to make me accommodate A's ravings, till I was in my 30s and finally realized it was in my power to say "no more."  If it hadn't been for DH I would have moved as far away as I could again after my dad died, which would have been too bad b/c I have some other great extended family members I'm now close to.  

I still have difficult days sometimes, but lately I talked to Mom, told her I was on a BPD support message board and that I was trying to emotionally prepare for dealing with A if she becomes seriously ill or if there are end of life issues that crop up (Mom is 80).  She took it pretty well, and she's dealing a lot better with A than I had even realized.  I couldn't believe my ears when she said she told him she would walk away if he couldn't moderate his outbursts... .would never have believed it was possible.  If I didn't think it would be ethically questionable I'd send her therapist a dozen roses.

I read the "parents of BPD kids" forum here sometimes to help give her advice... .I will absolutely help her set boundaries with A now that I trust her not to shove me under the bus where he's concerned.  Sadly it may take a village when he starts sniffing around for his inheritance if he thinks there's anything to get (there won't be, Mom spent all her money, paying for A a place to live and I'm sure plenty of his other bills for almost five decades.  He finally got a job and is keeping it somehow, probably b/c it's computer programming so he doesn't have to deal with people very often or very closely.)

I post all this to illustrate how hard it can be to help convince parents to accept reality when it comes to BPD children.  In a sense I get it - nobody wants to believe their child isn't right, good, perfect... .especially when other people are reacting so badly to the child, the impulse is probably to take up for him/her.  That said, I really couldn't say why my mom clung to her own distortion for so long, especially since in my view she should have seen what it was doing to me and to her marriage.  Probably because her family of origin is so dysfunctional she simply didn't have the tools.  She's 80 years old and we're finally there, so I'm determined to enjoy what few years we may have left.  If there's life, there's hope.  

[BabySister]

Thanks for sharing your story with me. I checked out the thread. Your situation is extremely relatable. I have felt mentally drained the past few days, this stuff really takes an emotional and physical toll just thinking about it all.

I hear you on the boundary-freeness of my parents. That's a great way to put it! I do feel it's safe right now. I wouldn't have said yes to him coming if I didn't.

Yea, part of me distancing myself is definitely so that maybe my folks will actually face the problem but from my meeting with the social worker, she said you are trying to change your parents... .you can only change yourself.

When you mentioned nobody wants to be believe their child isn't right, my mother always says how successful he'd be without the disease. I told her, you need to let that person go. She tells me all the time, I don't want him to be sick, I just want him cured, I just don't want to deal with him, all this garbage because I am standing up for myself and wanting change. A close family member recently said, she believes my mom clings on so tight and acts as the victim here unable to change because changing would mean she failed as a parent. Or at least maybe that's what she tells herself. I can see how that's possible especially because I see how she makes the situation worse sometimes, they play off of each other and enable each other, keep each other stuck. I see my mother in the pages of the Eggshell book and I have a feeling she sees herself too. I leant her my copy recently.

My folks know there's a problem but choose powerlessness. They made a decision years back after his first few episodes and hospitalizations, a social worker recommended a group home, mostly for later in life when they are no longer around. My mother wanted him to go, father couldn't do it. So it's a rift between my parents. Here we are and he's is their executor of their will! My mother refuses to change it! That makes sense, right! When I think about what's to come in the next decade, it doesn't look pretty.

[hellebore1]

A close family member recently said, she believes my mom clings on so tight and acts as the victim here unable to change because changing would mean she failed as a parent.

Definitely a big part of it with my mom, too.  She's pretty insecure about certain things, I'm sure that was one of them.

Also, for years she would walk around talking about how cute and sweet A was as a young child, and I'm sure it's true.  But no amount of wishing will bring that boy back.  His mental illness had kicked in by the time he was 10 or 12, IIRC.

It's really hard to steel yourself mentally against your parents.  Virtually our entire society dictates how you're supposed to honor and respect them, but that assumes they act like healthy mature adults.  

In your place I think I'd consider what you even want from your parents at this point.  Are you concerned your brother will stop you from seeing them if they have to be put in assisted living?  (Unless they've saved money more likely they'll run out b/c they've likely been supporting your brother for decades if your pattern is like mine.)  At which point you'll have a whale of a burden on your plate taking care of all three of them, or at least dealing with their being incapacitated which will remove your buffer with your brother and make things about a million times more stressful.  I think I'd see if you can get your parents to talk finances.  It might help to get your own mental ducks in a row before there's a health crisis with one or both and you're losing it from the strain, IMO.

If it's belongings you'd like (sentimental photos or whatever) I wonder if you could ask them for them now. Sounds like they might be a little willing to see reason if you are persistent about your fear your brother will, say, hock all their property for pennies on the dollar and blow through the money in a manic BPD binge.  One reason I didn't want to hand A money from my dad - I'd have been glad to put some in trust for him but he insisted on a lump sum and I knew he'd burn through it (probably a gift to some grifting so-called friend or girlfriend since he's so desperate for friendships... .without any insight as to why he doesn't have them of course) and be back for more in short order.  Of course my mom was right behind him trying to force me to give in to him.  I really didn't have any choice to go NC with him in retrospect and I went NC with my mom a few times over the years, too.  Again in my case it did seem to help her see the problem more clearly when she realized I was serious and she was truly risking her relationship with me if things didn't change.  

You have to do whatever you have to do, to take care of your sanity. The focus should be protecting yourself and your own nuclear family first and foremost, since it's true you can't make your parents see reality.  They're choosing not to act or to do anything about the problem, but that doesn't mean you can't.

[BabySister]

Great question, what do I want from my parents at this point. First, I'd like have an actual relationship with them that doesn't revolve around HIM so much! Whenever I go over there, he's right there planted in the living room. The conversation is SO different when he's around compared to not. For starters I want to ask for some separation. My hubby and I invited my parents over for dinner almost 2 years ago... .didn't invite him... .he showed up in the middle of dinner. Conversation became all about him. I'm actually amazed my parents came over and didn't insist that he be in invited to being with. I think it's only fair to have some occasions without him. Mother always guilts me about it though.

They have money saved like your pattern. I my mom reminds me there will be little left. Another thing eating at me is their will and him being in charge of it! She recently said to me, he's going to need your help running their house after they go as he will be able to live there for a specific amount of time and then the house will go up for sale. Again, this picture doesn't look pretty. HELP! What kind of help are we talking about? She's so confident that he, the person who won't go grocery shopping and is totally unpredictable most of the time will execute the will and I will help him if he needs it and if necessary I can just go lawyer up. OK! 

It's hard to say what my BPDb will do with money inherited. I've voiced concern over that too as I feel the state may be able to take it as he's on social security disability. She assures me it's taken care of, but I dunno! Good idea asking for a few things in advance. Will have to think about that more.

I agree this is about protecting my sanity and family at this point. This leads me into my next question, I'm wondering if I should start a new thread. So my BPDb texted me that he'd like to talk so we can forgive each other and change things to be in each others lives. I need to address my concerns and he's never been open to talking about them. I need the words to express my concern. I want to say something like I've been uncomfortable for a few months. How do I say, you've been off? How do I get him to talk about HIS behavior rather than him making it all about that I haven't been there for him. I haven't been there because he doesn't want to hear the truth!

[hellebore1]

Man oh man.  This is a tough one.  Hmmm.  I'm thinking.

I may say a couple of things here that sound a little harsh and please remember I do NOT intend any of this to be judge-y.  I've been where you are.  This is NOT an easy row to hoe.

I would say you need to firm up your boundaries with your parents.  Right now they're having an easy time of things because you're helping them with your brother, in the sense of not flatly insisting on things and telling them if they do X you'll do Y.  I mean, I hate to word things like this.  But part of what I did with my mom was figure out what she wanted from me and then make it clear to her that was at risk if she didn't help me set some boundaries with my BPD brother (BPDB) "A." Things my mom wanted: a relationship with me, period, and there's also some sense on her part of vulnerability since she's elderly, divorced and one of her kids is raving mentally ill.  I never framed it flat out quite like this, but - if you want your non-mentally-ill kid to, say, line up your lawn care and drive you to the doctor?  You're going to help her (me) set boundaries with A.  That kind of thing.  

In retrospect nothing really worked on my mom but force.  She was just so caught up in denial and refusal to believe there was anything wrong with her precious baby boy (who is full blown BPD with a healthy dose of probably another Cluster B disorder) that the only way I was really able to break through it was threats that if she didn't change things she would never see me again.  I went NC with her for several months at a time more than once. Eventually, as I said I started getting her attention and over time she realized I really wasn't going to help her accommodate A's outbursts, hysterics, blackmail, ever again and that I might be on onto something vis a vis his being actually mentally ill.  

Again, my own BPDB has anosognosia and will deny till his death that anything is wrong, despite his living with my mom till he was over 50, no real friendships, no romantic relationships, etc etc etc.  I'd say from start to finish helping my mom with her denial took, again, over 10 years.  But if I was ever going to have my own life free from constant emotional torment and manipulation it was patently clear it was going to be up to me to see that it was going to happen, since I really don't think my mom would have been able to break the pattern out of her own free will.  (Part of it is my extended family; mom has six living siblings, all adult children of my alcoholic grandfather, several of whom married their own alcoholics.  So they're big with the denial and saying you need to just overlook and accommodate difficult, even abusive, behaviors... .the FOG is so thick in my family you could cut it with a knife.  I take breaks from them too every once in a while.)

I'm trying to think of how you can get your parents to see you without your BPDB.  If the issue is he's around all the time, I wonder if you might take one of your parents out to lunch once per week so the other one can stay home with BPDB.  If I were you I'd avoid framing it like "I don't want to see BPDB," but more "gee I never get to spend any time with YOU MOM, just the two of us" and make the focus more on you and your own relationship.  If you do this the right way they might not even figure out what you're up to.  Before you know it you've strengthened your own relationship with them and will be coming from a place of strength when you start up in earnest telling them they're going to have to do something about BPDB or they're setting you up for unpleasantness once he's on his own and with control of their estate. You're their child too, dammit.

Again:  I am not saying this be a hateful witch.  Just that I've been there in the sense that in my experience some parents of BPD kids don't tend to think about reality in the sense you'd think they would.  In their minds BPD child will be OK someday and they'll get the future with him/her they dream of, when what's really going to happen is the child will likely be severely mentally ill forever, especially if s/he's not being encouraged to seek professional help, and will eventually become a burden to other family members.  It's really, really hard.

Things I might ask:  What guarantees are there exactly that BPDB will live in their house for X amount of time and then sell it?  My own BPDB "A" would think "hey, free house" and would never sell it or move or share the money with me.  It's just how he thinks.  Me me me me is always the focus, since he's got this fixation that anyone who won't give him his way 100% of the time is an "abuser" and he's justified in his selfishness.  Again, I think A has another Cluster B disorder in addition to BPD, your own BPDB may not be this bad.

On to your other issues.  I would absolutely hire a lawyer and be prepared for legal proceedings once you can see your parents are on the downswing or one of them has a health crisis.  Although, bear in mind even if BPDB is the executor of the will, he has to abide by whatever's in it.  If your parents mandate the house be sold and the money shared with you, that's what will happen legally, whether your BPDB likes it or not.  Does he also have their power of attorney re: living will, end of life issues?

Things I'd think about: Where will BPDB live once your parents are gone?  if there's no money left and he's on SS, he'll probably wind up in a Medicaid facility.  I would prepare yourself for the possibility that your parents will soon start pressuring you to move BPDB in with you once it really sinks in they won't be around forever.  You want to have a plan in place you can suggest as an alternative - I would call your county's mental health office and see what facilities are around, and I personally would start visiting them.

As far as your relationship with BPDB:  Try to remind yourself this person is mentally ill.  In a sense it doesn't matter what he wants or doesn't want out of his relationship with you b/c BPD relationships don't work that way.  If I weren't NC with my own BPDB, he would absolutely still be trying to find a way to finagle money or material items out of me and separate me from other people in my life.  Honestly his life must be hell... .yes I'll always be damaged by what happened to me as a kid but there's a big part of me that feels pretty sorry for people who won't ever have close relationships or likely even know real happiness.  I'll try to remember this in case I have to deal with him again someday.  Thanks for the reminder.  

[BabySister]

Thank you for your response hellebore1. I don't take your suggestions as judge-y, no worries. I appreciate you saying that. I like idea of taking out my parents one at a time and build our relationship. They are all so connected over there, it will be a game changer. I have in the past made bold moves like that. Took my dad to a sporting event and my mother got jealous and was annoyed I didn't invite her. They were tickets from my job and I had 2! I totally agree with the, hey, he's going to live with you! I already get the guilt when trying to find a solution here and address things, aren't you going to help him in the future! Like I wouldn't or something.

I didn't call my brother back yet as I am still very uncertain of the approach to take. He texted me that he wants things to be better and to be in each others lives, etc. and for us to forgive each other. I am not sure what I need to be forgiven for except not meeting the needs he has mapped out for me. One of the things I am struggling with today, as all the other stuff with the house etc is future... .is when we talk and attempt to address things I feel like I can't mention that my parents came to my house fleeing from him, that my mother thinks he needs a meds adjustment... .so just struggling as they are babysitting this weekend and I know my mom will start asking me to contact him. Not sure if the recommendation is to just deal with my parents at this point and don't contact him?

I'm thinking, call him and listen. Identify my trigger words ahead of time, which I believe I saw on a link someone shared, remove the emotion and then state what I'm uncomfortable with and state my needs. I do need to remember he is ill. I want to address some things this go around for sure. If anyone else has suggestions I am open to hearing them. 

[Turkish]

That his emotional state may depend upon his meds is tough.  You might do well to go through the communication tools to help reduce conflict.  In the these lessons:

Tools for communication, validation, and reinforcement of good behavior

These are from the Bettering Board,  but it's the best place where the communication strategies are all together.  I know it's a lot... .SET would be a good place to start. 

T

[hellebore1]

How old is he?  How ill is he?  Is there any chance at all he might live by himself someday?  I think the answers might dictate where you choose to take this.  If he's older and could conceivably live on his own you might start pressuring your parents about that.  If he isn't, bear in mind they're struggling under the burden of having a BPD child and it sort of isn't personal that they're relying on you so much to help them with it.  You might try some of the threads for parents of BPD kids to get a sense of what it's like.  It really does help to try to see things from their perspective and see if you can find some alternatives (i.e. paid home health care workers or something) to lessen the stress.

I'm not a good person to talk to to negotiate a relationship with a BPD since I've been NC for so long, but I hear it's a good idea not to JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain).  Anything like that will be just be used by the BPD to justify his/her own arguments and leave you more frustrated.  Hope some others weigh in here on it.   

[BabySister]

Thanks Turkish and hellebore1,
It really is A LOT! My husband and I just sat down and I started reading the SET stuff and the D.E.A.R.M.A.N. approach and we are frustrated already. This all seems like so much work on our part.

To answer hellebore1's questions. He is in his fifties and has been living there for the last 25 years at least. I'd say there is no way he's moving out of my parents house as the years roll on the chances become slimmer. My parents are SO resistant to change this situation. My mom can't even say, you've been off lately when he's been acting manic for months at this point. I actually have been checking out the threads of parents of pwBPD. I'm not saying it's easy for them... .but I'm angry that they want me to keep pretending and dancing at this point when my mother admits, it's getting worse! Is it OK for me to post a thread on the Parent's of BPD or do I stick to on here and just reply to threads on there?

By paid home health care workers, I think you mean to generally help out at their house right? That's not a bad idea. They do need help over there. I may present that idea to my mom as she and my dad are doing all the work over there, mostly my mother. She cooks, cleans, shops, and more... .my dad is starting to experience memory loss which adds additional pressure on her.

J.A.D.E. Yes, I really shouldn't do those things and agree that is not going to help.

So here's what I did. I sent him a message that I need a little more time before we talk as I'm not sure what to say how to help and how to communicate what I need and the changes I'd like to see. At least I'm responding to him and giving myself the space I need to figure out my approach. I have a few months ago asked my BPDb to adjust some things he says to my son. I did it at lunch with him and he was receptive and did make adjustments.

[BabySister]

So I received a bunch of responses from my BPDb today which tell me nothing will be different after all this semi-NC from each other. We've had no contact in person.

Basically he wants to forgo talking on the phone and just come on over to move forward. Feels the conversion would be too contrived, basically invalidating my feelings and what I want to say or have change. He's making this all about that I can help by being there for him and not cutting him off from his family. I haven't cut him off, he gets to come over when I'm out and see my son.

It's all about, I haven't been there for him lately... .I haven't been there because I don't want to just continue on and on with no change and no accountability on his part. Also he says that we can't change each other. He said he doesn't understand what I mean about trying to help, or how I can help, says he didn't ask me to solve his problems. Denial, denial, and denial.

I do want off the triangle. Looking for any support or suggestions. Thank you.

[hellebore1]

OK, so - what do you think about BPDB's chances of living alone?  As in, will that happen after your parents are gone or do you need to think about asking them to find a custodial living situation for him when they become incapacitated?  Again, I would guess they're going to start up on the idea of him moving in with you probably sooner rather than later.  Sadly my further guess is that the pressure to do this will be intense.  I'd be thinking about what you are willing to do, say, visit him once a month if he's at a Medicaid facility or similar.

I know you can't make your parents do anything or change their attitude.  But there are things you can do to help them change their attitude, especially if they see you are really willing to set some boundaries in the interest of your own mental health.

Sorry to hear your BPDB was being unreasonable.  It's almost like we deal with two different issues when our siblings have BPD:  our own boundaries with BPD, and our parents' trying to force us to accommodate unreasonable behaviors, both their own enabling and BPD outbursts and manipulations.  It's just not easy.

[BabySister]

He has only lived out on his own once and wound up at my parents house and current gf's house most of the time and that quickly ended and he wound up back home again. I don't see it happening, think the chances are slim of him living alone. If it's forced to happen maybe he could handle it for a little while.

What will happen after they are gone, that's the million dollar question. It is specified that he will live in house for 1 year and then sell. If I can even talk to him about the illness at all, and they can't, not sure how plans for this will get made. My mother guilts me and says, aren't you going to take care of him, help him. This is why we need to address the illness and talk about it at least.

I am not willing for him to live with me. No way. Where I stand right now for the first time is just avoiding him, I've had enough and his messages from yesterday are just more of the same old same old.

A little more context... .his GF of many years broke it off last year with him. Couldn't take anymore of the yelling. He is not anywhere near over it and yesterday in the mix of messages he sent me was reminding me that he needs support as this is like a divorce for him. I've been supportive all up until the last 2 rounds of nasty texts but yes I've been distancing myself and he does not like it.

Back to my parents, I am starting to feel more confident to set these boundaries and allow myself this space right now. I'm not going to be pressured back into the same cycle. Maybe I will be able to help change their attitude and see that things can change.

I've reread the advice on here and appreciate it all. I guess my own action is what's next. Thanks.

[hellebore1]

For what it's worth, the way things stand with my own BPDB is this: I won't have anything to do with him - I mean nothing, no phone calls, emails, in person visits - unless he's seeing a therapist.  I know treating BPD is difficult even if someone IS in therapy, but what that would say to me is, there's some effort on his side instead of me being asked to accommodate forever.  He's got the usual menu of BPD behaviors in terms of being really mean on purpose, spoiling holidays, frequent outbursts, etc.  I have pretty severe ADHD and am taking care of two elderly family members right now, don't need more stuff to deal with.

I'd be very wary of this "him living in the house for a year" thing.  Guess what, as soon as the year is up he'll have a million reasons why he "can't" move and whatever you offer will be unacceptable.  In his defense living in a Medicaid home would not be much fun.  Wonder if there are some halfway houses or similar around he might qualify for.

Man does it sound familiar to be told the BPD needs support and it's your responsibility to provide it no matter how he treats you.  Another reason I went NC - sick of the one way street.  It would have been a lot better had my mom not been all over my case to let him walk on me, but I got pretty sick of that too.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting NC is the only option, my situation was a little different.  But I think I would explore getting counseling for you as well, just to give you some support in dealing with this.  Hang in there.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again BabySister, 

You have been processing a whole lot these past few days. I can tell you are overwhelmed and rightly so. Early on in my journey of healing, sometimes I got so inundated with information that I didn't know what to do. It was/is all good and helpful, but how does it apply to daily life with the pwBPD? Rather than making stabs at it, would it help if we practiced some scenarios here? Practicing helps you to walk through something you anticipate will be coming. Let's be practical, we know what types of responses and behaviors to expect from the pwBPD in our life. We are so familiar with it. So let's try it if you are game.

What do you feel will be the one or two main topics of discussion with him that HE wants to talk about?

 
Wools

[hellebore1]

Really wish we could "thank" people for posts here - that's a terrific suggestion from Woolspinner.  

[Harri]

This thread has been locked and split as it reached the post limits.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338454.msg13067226#msg13067226