Very close to leaving my BPD spouse

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm about 80% sure I'm going to divorce my BPD husband. I just cannot take the raging anymore. We recently started seeing a counselor. This counselor did diagnose my husband as BPD (and yes, he is qualified the reason I chose him as our marriage counselor was because of his background with BPD). I was very optimistic when my husband took it in stride, he didn't rage, he didn't get up and leave or deny it. He accepted the diagnosis. I just don't think that he understands it, though. We can't afford to go to this counselor very long since he is not covered by our insurance plan, but I was hoping he get encourage my SO to start individual counseling with someone he recommended.  And yesterday after our second appointment I was really believing that this could work, that we could get through this.
  However, this morning, nothing was different. I understand that two sessions with a counselor focusing on marriage and not BPD will not fix things, but I just can't keep doing this. This morning my SO had a physical for a new job he is starting. He was very anxious because he is a cannabis card holder and though it is perfectly legal in this state, he fears discrimination and so found a place that sells synthetic clean samples, and he was very nervous about being found out. I know that he is nervous and really, I'm angry on his behalf that he even feels like he has to do that when he's not doing anything wrong or illegal. That's why I went shopping with him last night as he tried on various outfits to find something that made him feel less anxious. I even paid for the clothes despite running low this week due to paying out of pocket for this counselor. He asked me to go with him this morning and I said yes. He got up more than an hour early and I asked him if he would mind if I got up just a half hour before as I don't take long to get ready. He said fine. I go back to sleep and he comes in yelling about needing help finding his clippers. Yelling about me moving them (I don't touch them). And I say, you don't need my help, you get ready every morning without me. And maybe that was wrong, but I didn't feel like I should reward such behavior. If he had wanted my help he should have said so when I asked if he minded that I slept a little longer. And it just gets worse from there. Admittedly, I do feel bad that this happened before something that he was already nervous about, but I am just so tired of him acting like I am his doormat because he is nervous or anxious. Just the other day he said he knows he needs to work on his anger and "would go to China and back" or would do anything to make our marriage work. And maybe with more time it could, but I am not seeing how that would be possible without him doing some intense individual counseling and he likes to threaten not going to counseling whenever it seems like I am pulling away from him (which is usually proceeded by him actually telling me to go in the first place). I'm just exhausted by this and I feel like I'm an idiot for thinking that things could work because of the loving behavior that happens in between. I just don't think I can do it anymore. I say 80% sure it's over because I still love him and I still wish with all my heart that it could work, I just am tired of the treatment. I feel like an ass for leaving but I couldn't stay.

[Nixie_3]

I'm about 80% sure I'm going to divorce my BPD husband. I just cannot take the raging anymore. We recently started seeing a counselor. This counselor did diagnose my husband as BPD (and yes, he is qualified the reason I chose him as our marriage counselor was because of his background with BPD). I was very optimistic when my husband took it in stride, he didn't rage, he didn't get up and leave or deny it. He accepted the diagnosis. I just don't think that he understands it, though. We can't afford to go to this counselor very long since he is not covered by our insurance plan, but I was hoping he get encourage my SO to start individual counseling with someone he recommended.  And yesterday after our second appointment I was really believing that this could work, that we could get through this.
  However, this morning, nothing was different. I understand that two sessions with a counselor focusing on marriage and not BPD will not fix things, but I just can't keep doing this. This morning my SO had a physical for a new job he is starting. He was very anxious because he is a cannabis card holder and though it is perfectly legal in this state, he fears discrimination and so found a place that sells synthetic clean samples, and he was very nervous about being found out. I know that he is nervous and really, I'm angry on his behalf that he even feels like he has to do that when he's not doing anything wrong or illegal. That's why I went shopping with him last night as he tried on various outfits to find something that made him feel less anxious. I even paid for the clothes despite running low this week due to paying out of pocket for this counselor. He asked me to go with him this morning and I said yes. He got up more than an hour early and I asked him if he would mind if I got up just a half hour before as I don't take long to get ready. He said fine. I go back to sleep and he comes in yelling about needing help finding his clippers. Yelling about me moving them (I don't touch them). And I say, you don't need my help, you get ready every morning without me. And maybe that was wrong, but I didn't feel like I should reward such behavior. If he had wanted my help he should have said so when I asked if he minded that I slept a little longer. And it just gets worse from there. Admittedly, I do feel bad that this happened before something that he was already nervous about, but I am just so tired of him acting like I am his doormat because he is nervous or anxious. Just the other day he said he knows he needs to work on his anger and "would go to China and back" or would do anything to make our marriage work. And maybe with more time it could, but I am not seeing how that would be possible without him doing some intense individual counseling and he likes to threaten not going to counseling whenever it seems like I am pulling away from him (which is usually proceeded by him actually telling me to go in the first place). I'm just exhausted by this and I feel like I'm an idiot for thinking that things could work because of the loving behavior that happens in between. I just don't think I can do it anymore. I say 80% sure it's over because I still love him and I still wish with all my heart that it could work, I just am tired of the treatment. I feel like an ass for leaving but I couldn't stay.

[pearlsw]

Hi Nixie3,

Wow! I feel like I could have written parts of this post and my SO rarely rages - only when he's upset, other than that he is either is EXTREMELY happy with me or slightly ignoring me.

Do you feel like your feelings will pass or will your percentage keep going up and up?

Do you want to write out a bit about reasons to stay or go? I've been wanting to do this myself lately, make a list, but I think I'm a little afraid to see such raw data in front of me!

with compassion, pearl.

[Danielle79]

I can understand where you're coming from. My husband goes through these cycles, too, where one day he's loving and everything seems okay and the next he's yelling at me for things that aren't my responsibility and making me feel like my feelings don't matter and that I'm stupid. He takes cannabis, too, for anxiety, but he hasn't worked in over three years. There are days I'm sure I'm going to leave him... .and then I get less sure again. It's exhausting! I hope you have some support ♡

[Red5]

Good morning Nixie_3,

You are certainly not alone in what you are experiencing, as Danielle79 and Pearlsw describe... .

My husband goes through these cycles, too, where one day he's loving and everything seems okay and the next he's yelling at me for things that aren't my responsibility and making me feel like my feelings don't matter and that I'm stupid.

Classic splitting, black and white thinking process... .I call this in my own r/s... ."hero to zero" in a split second

There are days I'm sure I'm going to leave him... .and then I get less sure again.

... .rarely rages - only when he's upset, other than that he is either is EXTREMELY happy with me,

What this is, the back and forth roller-coaster ride of good, and bad, black and white, is the punishment that the BPD dolled out, but then the punishment is suddenly lifted, and then there is the "intermittent positive reward" (IPR)... .that IPR is what keeps "non's" hooked.

It's exhausting!

Oh yes it is !

Red5

[Nixie_3]

The percentage seems to fluctuate. Most of the day I was sure I did the right thing, but now I feel like I have made a terrible mistake. I almost feel nauseous. I just want everything to go back to the way it was (in the moments when he wasn't having a rage). I had to leave some of our animals with him because I can't take them all to my parents' house (my SO and I live in the country). He works at night and I feel like crap that they won't have someone there with them at night. The cat is afraid of him so probably will stay out all night.
    And I feel like maybe I was wrong, maybe I should have catered to his need. I feel like that, but I don't believe it. We were just talking about taking vacation back to the beach we got married at, he just gave me an apology that I felt long overdue and really meant a lot to me, he actually liked this counselor. Things seemed to be looking up, but now I feel like it's crashing around me. I'm so confused I literally feel like I can't make any decisions today. I couldn't even decide between taking the dogs for a walk or going swimming. I could make a list of the reasons to stay or go, but I think I'm afraid to see more on the go side than the stay side. 

[Amazingkids]

  Nixie_3,

I understand what you are going through.  Whether you stay or leave is not an easy decision and neither one will be easy.  Please take care of yourself.  You can only control your actions and you are not responsible for the actions of others.  It is OK if you need a break!

A huge hug to you!  You are not alone and plenty of us have made things you call mistakes.

I am glad you reached out to this forum it has been amazing to help so many!

Sincerely,
Amazingkids

[Nixie_3]

Update: so I did go back home after we had a decent conversation. However, the nonsense just started right back up. He's getting ready for a trip with a friend and is not ready to leave this morning as he planned. Going on any trip with him sucks by the way, some little thing always goes wrong and he freaks out and talks about how awful I am and how God hates him and such... .Well, I thought this would be better as it is his trip alone, and therefore, in my mind, his responsibility. I've been working twelve hour shifts the last three days. He asked me to pick up some small things for the trip on my last night on my way home. I thought, great, maybe that takes care of the drama and I'll get up early tomorrow to help him make sure he's got everything and see him off. Nope, he lost the key to one of the ATVs he was going to bring. Somehow, even though he lost it, I am a terrible excuse for a wife and I don't help him even though I spent three hours after a twelve hour shift without eating dinner to try and help him. This morning he was screaming at me to clean out the other car (to help look, I guess). I said no, I will not help someone who is screaming at me and calling me names. He said "then pack your stuff, I don't want you here when I come back." Of course, he also said he wasn't going on his trip anymore, but he just left to go get some stuff for his trip, so it's really hard to follow his logic. I have a counseling appointment this afternoon and I think I am going to ask her how to help me detatch. I am just so tired of being treated like a___ person and a ___ wife when I feel like I try so hard. I don't think it's unreasonable at all for me to refuse to help someone speaking cruelly to me, right? And anyway, as I said, I am just so exhausted by it and I feel contempt sneaking in when he starts treating me that way.

[ConfusedEmoji]

Wow! This type of behaviour sounds so familiar to me. The verbal abuse, the ups and downs, the screaming etc. I hear you. I am in a similar situation with my husband; probably would have left a long time ago if we didn't have kids. Everytime I spend time away from him and come back home I notice how bad he treats me. This is not love- the  way he treats you. There are many types of abuse and this sounds like emotional and verbal abuse. I can relate to the behavior of him mistreating you and you're ready to leave and then he apologizes and treats you with loving kindness. I am in the kindness stage right now, but I'm waiting for it to go back to the raging. Once it does... .I will be gone. I think the only reason my husband is being nice now is because I threatened to leave. Sounds similar to your situation. Surround yourself with friends and positive people who care about you. What does the counselor say? I asked myself the other day, if I had a daughter would I want her to be treated this way? The answer is no!

[Ltahoe]

I’m in a similar situation although a man with a BPD wife. I’m to the point where I know divorce is probably ahead. Not sure as who will instigate it, I’m constantly getting divorce threats from her. She always makes it apparent that plenty of men think I’m lucky to have her. After all she is pretty attractive and I’m sure plenty of men are sexually attracted to her but have no clue. I do ask myself everyday why I deal with this, idk even what I do to set off my wife but she rages all the time for no apparent reason. The relationship isn’t close to reciprocal.

It’s sad to hear your story, but at the same time the vac thing sounds really familiar. Almost every time we are on vac something sets her off, too hot, too overcast, it’s like half a day of not perfect weather is grounds for destroying a whole week or two weeks of vac.  Other small things we went to a state park once and they didn’t except credit and all we had was a laundry bag full of quarters so I paid in quarters versus turning around, I didn’t realize that was grounds for WWIII but it was. Asking if she can get out to get our plate number to fill out a registration form set her off, I asked her as I was too close to the check in both to get out.  Idk she refuses to be distracted or go out of her way no matter how small, and makes a war out of it if she has too. She can sit on her phone the whole time I’m driving but the minute I ask her to google maps something she refuses cause focusing on a screen will make her sick or give her a headache. Dang I really want to throw her phone out the window sometimes. . It’s really a nightmare to travel with her needless to say. At this point I really only do it to avoid depriving the kids.

The kids are really the only reason I’m still around. I always think about divorce as I can never meet my wife’s ridiculous expectations and it’s made known. Then spending time with my daughter makes me realize that a divorce would significantly change the amount of time I get to spend with her. Idk it’s one of my toughest fights with myself ever I know I’m abusing myself by staying. I just can’t bear the thought of hardly seeing my daughter. With my work schedule no court would give me custody. She’s a high functioning BPD so it’s really not apparent unless you’re close to her. So a court wouldn’t notice her disfuntion. It wasn’t really even apparent to me for a few years. Probably not apparent to my family or Many of her casual friends, really she’s a great actor. She can go from raging at home to being all bubbly and polite in public or a social setting and vs versa polite out and raging the second we’re alone. At first I was like you got to be kidding but no I just know how it is. Sorry for the long reply just letting you know you’re not alone and letting just a tad out too.

[raiano18]

In the same situation. My fiancé has BPD. She is fine one day and literally a different person the next. We have a 8 week old baby together. If it wasn't for her, sadly, id be gone. I cant take much more of the threats, the punishments, the anxious thoughts or the ignorance. She's constantly putting me down, but reversing it, because it's "my fault". Everything is "my fault". If the kitchen isn't cleaned, it "my fault" if the bathroom needs cleaned it "my responsibility". I understand we're new parents, but she was this way before the baby. Its only getting worse, and to say the least, im broken down to the point where I want to leave, but I still love her, and I want my daughter with me at all times. Im scared she will turn our daughter into her. Placing blame ON ME for not being together. She admits to the bull___ she puts me through, but blames it on me.

[Nixie_3]

Thanks for the replies. It is both reassuring and sad to hear similar stories. I suppose I should be thankful we don't have any children. I feel bad enough about leaving the dogs with him.  We have four and I left the two he considers "his" with him. My counselor did advise me to leave when I spoke with her last weak. She's the only one I've given all the details about his abusive behavior when he rages to and she said was concerned for my safety and his anger was too unpredictable. When my friend said the exact same things she did the next day it confirmed my decision stay elsewhere for the time being. It took me five more days to actually follow through with it, though. I wanted to sit down with my SO and explain that I just need some space to recover from all this emotional turmoil but am still open to counseling as long as he will be doing some individual counseling.
     Unfortunately, that conversation didn't happen. He got mad last night that I had my parents let the dogs out while I was at work and he was out of town. He has this just absurd animosity for my dad. This morning he was still fighting with me about it. He hadn't even been home a whole day and he was already fighting with me. I don't know, perhaps he could sense some distance building between us, because there was, I wasn't even sure how to greet him when I got home from work yesterday. Part of me wanted to hug him and tell him I missed him and have everything go back to normal, but I just couldn't forget the nasty things he said to me before he left and that he never even apologized.
     So, now he's saying we're divorcing and I should make sure to have my stuff out of the house by the end of the week. I feel like that's his attempt to get some control of the situation. He did say he was going to make an appointment with the counselor, but that he didn't want me there. I said, ok, I was just glad he was planning on going. Again, I wonder if I made the wrong decision, but I worry that if I stayed then I would just grow to be so bitter towards him and any hope of repairing our relationship would be gone. Although, that may be true already if I'm to take him at his word. I just hate this whole thing.

[LivingWBPDWife]

Same situation with BPDw, she rages constantly, makes threats, we have a 3 year old and the thought of her alone with my BPDw without me around is terrifying. My BPDw is a monster, then when around strangers is happy, smiles, a complete fake. Reading these comments is EXACTLY my life. But, to the original poster -- IMO therapy is a complete waste. In reality, no one can afford to pay $125-150/hr once a week. Then the chances of getting a good therapist is 1 in 10, 1 in 20, so you spend 1-2-3 months figuring this out, that they suck. All the time, if you have a bad therapist, then they make things MUCH WORST -- They end up getting manipulated by the BPD and an unwitting accomplice empowering the BPD to rationalize why you are the monster and not them. For therapy to work it takes YEARS -- and you MUST have an EXPERT in BPD, not just someone that says they are, but someone that IS and you can vet and verify this - which is very hard to do. What needs to happen, is you hire a therapist and IF AND WHEN you see progress you PAY.

It's just all so exhausting -- I am mostly tired of the constant threats and the weaponization of my daughter -- My BPDw knows I care, and want our daughter to have both parents, and uses it to get her way, throw tantrums, rages, and have zero accountability since there's nothing I can do really --


So tiring and frustrating... .

[Emotionally Numb]

Wow Nixie, Confused Emoji & Ltahoe... .I read your replies and it was my life with my husband for the past 10+ years. 

I am new here - just joined last night.  I've always known something wasn't "right" but never knew what it could be until recently.  I'm at the point I'm trying to make my decision on what to do.  I feel my best when I'm not around him.  When I know I have to be near him or at my house, I start to feel anxious and tense.  I teach so I am off for the summer.  Currently, my kids and I are at my parent's house spending the summer.  However, time is running out and I have to make a decision soon.  Reading everyone's replies lets me know that I am not alone and that I'm not as "lost" as aI feel.  Thank you.

[Nixie_3]

LivingWBPDwife, I'm sorry your daughter is being used against you. I couldn't imagine how much more difficult this would all be with a child caught in the middle. Emotionally Numb, I understand how you feel. I'd say at least half the time my husband is around I feel anxious and tense, just because I never know when a good time is going to turn bad. Good luck in making your decision, I know it is so hard. I feel like I'm about there too.
    I did make a list as pearl suggested and it makes me kind of sad. I don't know if I couldn't find as much to put in the stay category because I have just about reached my limit of hurt or if I just never clearly analyzed our relationship, but here's my list:
Stay:
-Can be very kind and caring
-Can be very supportive
-Can be a considerate lover
-A lot of common interests
-Encourages me to grow as a person
-When he notices I have done something will always make a point of commenting i.e. The house looks nice if I have cleaned.
Go:
-Not sure he loves the actual me instead of just the idea of a loyal wife
-He makes the animals anxious at times
-Always making rules, feel like he thinks he's my parent and not my partner
-Feel more free to make plans with friends and family
-The stuff he says about my family
-The stuff he says to me when he's angry
-Feel like a mother taking care of a child, he's always loosing things
-Just not sure I can really be me
-Don't feel he desires me
-Not sure I really love him the same way. Maybe it's all the hurt that has happened, but I'm not sure now I believe myself when I tell him I love him.

  My friend says I'm just not happy in this marriage and is kind of pushing for me to leave. I'm still living with my parents but I agreed to stay the night with my husband tonight because he kept saying he would just file for divorce because he can't stand being alone (like that makes any sense) and because I wasn't quite ready for that decision I let myself be pulled into agreeing to stay the night even though, I really don't feel quite comfortable. I feel like it would all be so much easier to just say "ok, you want a divorce, you got it." And move on. Why, why, why can't I? It's that eternal hope that this dream we had together could be real. Am I just a fool for holding onto a dream?

[Ltahoe]

If you have no kids I say this whole heartedly with the best long term intentions for you. RUN NOW AND NEVER LOOK BACK!  Just take it from the many trapped even further because of kids. It’s only going to get worse with more commitment, plus if you have kids your kids will be subject to the same issues you are. Your kids will also be higher risk of having BPD. Nothing against my kids but having kids while dealing with a BPD is living hell, if I had no kids I wouldn’t even be thinking whether to stay or not.

[Red5]

... .I did make a list as pearl suggested and it makes me kind of sad. I don't know if I couldn't find as much to put in the stay category because I have just about reached my limit of hurt or if I just never clearly analyzed our relationship, but here's my list:

Good Morning Nixie_3,

I was at my wits end, and very depressed when I found BPDfam, and came here last January was a year ago now... .in a word, "defeated"... .but it's "funny", .I too made a checklist (list)... .in fact, I continued to edit it, and add to it... .sometimes I go back there and read all of it... .which is quite sobering now all these months later.

Coming here almost everyday now since, this site has helped me so much, and I have learnt a lot, .and I have to say I have been able to make a few improvements, (coping mechanisms) and I have learnt how to use the tools that are presented here, #1 tool is boundaries... .you have to stop the craziness!... .there is so much to learn about BPD/npd... .and a few others as well.

The human psyche is so complicated, so much to try to comprehend, .or even begin to understand.

I was lost in this when I came here, all but given up, beaten up, even mad!... .but I am still here, .any improvements do not happen over night, .no they don't;... .but improvements can be made over rime, .it's a lot of work... .every relationship is different... .and there are limits to what a person can, and will endure.

Well, anyways... .just for "fun"... .here is my "checklists" I made all those months ago, well over a year now... .wow!... .I was really "up a tree" for sure when I first wrote all of that... .

Kind regards, Red5

link-> https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=304834.0;all

[Nixie_3]

Red5, I did read your list and you sound  pretty opitmistic now, which makes me hopeful. Boundaries are something I am just now realizing I do struggle with. I would tell him things like on work nights I need to be in bed by 9:30 which I tried to be strict about which somehow started to get pushed later. And perhaps realizing that I have a boundary issue is why I have been trying to stand by staying away until we at least see the therapist. I let myself be talked into going over the other night because he kept threatening divorce (although honestly, he's threatened that at various times throughout our marriage, it's like his go to pressure point for me, unless it's about him and not me and he really thinks that's the only answer).
    Anyway, I let myself get talked into staying over, and then somehow into giving him the impression that I was just going to move back today. I wanted to, I did. And even now, I still wish I could have said yes, but I told him I really feel like I need to at least wait till therapy. He just isn't able to hear me, I think. I guess his feelings are so intense he can't understand that I have things I need to work through, but that doesn't mean I'm just giving up on us. When I'm with him I start to doubt that things were really so bad that I felt the need to leave, but it was. I would have never done it if it wasn't. I'm not trying to play games with him, I just feel so used up emotionally at the moment that as much as I wish I could stay, I just can't right now. And he just keeps saying divorce. My mom says give him time, he's angry and hurt right now and needs time to work through his emotions, but I just keep wondering if I made the wrong decision. Of course she also told me that no matter what decision I made it would probably feel wrong because this is such a complicated situation. She's probably right, but I still wish I could be there holding him right now, because I know he's hurting. I wish God  would just speak to me in a dream or something and tell me what to do. I just have no idea.

[BetterLanes]

I wish God  would just speak to me in a dream or something and tell me what to do. I just have no idea.

Hi Nixie_3! +1 from me but that hasn't happened yet If you are a Christian you might want to check out the recent thread Jackie59 started up on this board to discuss the issue of whether God is okay with splitting up or ending a marriage. Separation in a problematic marriage situation, for you both to get your heads in a better place, appears to be a valid thing in all the traditions we were discussing from and need not be permanent. However, it sounds like your H cannot see it as such and finds it so hard to be apart and have that uncertainty.

When I'm with him I start to doubt that things were really so bad that I felt the need to leave, but it was.

I get that too. I am not a psychologist but it feels to me like you have to have a mental safety shut-off switch for your reactions and emotions to be able to be with the BPD person when they are acting out and being horrible, because if they were a stranger or even a friend you would just walk away. You're not a fool at all for wanting the good and normal parts of the relationship (the dream bits) to be the reality of the relationship all or at least most of the time. It's hard when the BPD behaviors are either there spoiling whatever it is you are doing, or you are aware they are potentially there if you don't get everything right and that's making you tense. I find I have to do a lot of mental editing to deal with this and that kind of kicks in automatically around my H. It feels strange but it doesn't mean you're crazy or stupid. (I hope so anyway for my sake!)

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

[AskingWhy]

Nixie, I am with you in your frustration.

My H of 20 years is most likely BPD with BPD as well.  I am glad you are able to step back and clearly look at your H's behavior.  You also have tried counseling, although, as you probably know, BPDs don't take to counseling well and often say they don't have issues.  Moreover, the BPD can blame you for having the problem.

I know well the rages and the splitting.  In the past, I was broken down into tears one time my H blasted me with his rage, which included destroying my property, punching holes in walls, and threats of divorce.  This started to happen on a regular basis a few years into the marriage.  His X wife divorce him after finding a lover and took his children across the country. I think H is still projecting the rage he feels for his X onto me.

I have looked at his FOO and its a mess.  My BIL and his wife are both drug addicts and FIL is most likely uNPD.  I don't care if I ever see his family ever again.  My H is the only person who made anything of himself; FIL, for 30 years, took a series of low-paying, low-skilled jobs and yet always had a very high opinion of himself.  FIL routinely begged for money from my H, his son, after spending his income on hunting, fishing and golf.

You have found this site and I hope you will arrive at the decision that is right for you.  You know the problems in the marriage are not your fault.  This is a wonderful step in the right direction.

[AskingWhy]

I forgot to add recommending this book on divorcing a pwBPD.

It's an essential guide for navigating the certain roller coaster when divorcing a BPD.

"Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."

https://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254

[PeteWitsend]

Here's my $0.02 about MC & pwBPD

I'm in the same boat as a lot of you who are sticking with this mostly because of your kids.  We've been through 5 years of marriage, barely a year of dating before that, and we have two young kids.  

Even though we've been going through a relatively good spell, I know it'll come to an end soon enough.  and even good spells are punctuated with plenty of nasty behavior that only de-escalates because I ignored her personal attacks and complaints, validated her concerns, and we moved on.

If it was not for the kids, I'd have been gone a couple years ago.  

For those wondering, we tried MC three different times with three different therapists.

the first one was... .okay.  he called her out when she was hysterical, and making incredibly depraved (and needless to say, baseless) accusations about me and my family members.  but in my opinion ignored some pretty egregious behavior from her in the process of trying to help resolve our issues.  we resolved nothing through it.  Even after weeks counseling, if I disagreed with anything she said, the rage would come roaring back, even mid session.

the second MC was just bad.  I mostly remembered him on our second visit, yawning with disinterest while my wife screamed and raged at me after I told my side of the story.  I think that was on our second visit.  on our third visit, I found myself self censoring, it passed uneventfully, and my wife declared us "cured" and refused to go back.

the third MC was better (about a year later), although b/c of that, it ended worse.  she called my wife out for some of the jealously and controlling stuff.  like the constant questioning and accusations of infidelity.  wife hated that, and refused to keep going.  I refused to self censor and stuck to my guns.  sessions devolved into me stating the things that upset me that week, and what I didn't like, and my BPD wife going off on 15-20 minute rants about everything I ever did wrong, one year ago, three months ago, 2 years ago, 4 years ago, 5 days ago, like a bad stream-of-consciousness novel.

SO, MY CONCLUSION:

in my experience, unless you get an absolute saint for a MC, MC is largely a waste with pwBPD.

They aren't actually interested in changing anything; they have thing exactly how they want them (in their own twisted way of thinking).  Nor will PwBPD be willing to engage in the sort of honest, and candid discussions that are required for successful MC.

You're better off learning the tools explained here: validating, listening with empathy, and trying to redirect negative emotions elsewhere, and so forth.

At least those things work sometimes.  You can possibly reduce conflict to manageable levels, and ride out the worst.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Nixie_3,

Sorry I couldn't post this over the weekend, but here is a song for your heart: "Where We Go" from P!nk's Beautiful Trauma album. It's an uplifting song about someone conflicted over the possibility of a breakup (sounds weird but that's how it is!). If you don't think that was written for your exact situation let me know and I'll refund your 99 cents

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

[Nixie_3]

Thanks BetterLanes, I'll give that song a listen. I love Pink. So, I thought things were improving. We talked about celebrating our anniversary this wednesday. I'm annoyed that he was upset that I work on our anniversary day, but I had done it so I could get several days off in a row in case we wanted to go somewhere. So he badgered me into saying I would call in that day. I agreed because it was the only day we could get an appointment with our therapist, but I'm still upset about it. In my opinion you can celebrate on a different day just like a birthday. But he goes into saying things like he's hurt that I don't care enough to spend the actual day with him. I feel like another adult would have been understanding. We talked about gifts and I told him I couldn't get anything till friday when I get paid. He showed up at my work yesterday with jewelry. I thanked him and told him I would open it later (I'm an ICU nurse, I'm kind of busy). When I talk to him later, I tell him they're beautiful and he tells me he spent $1200 dollars on them. First of all, rude, you don't tell people what you spent. Second of all, I cannot afford to pay anything like that, I pay all the bills. I was talking about spending like 300$ max and even then I wasn't sure it was appropriate with as up in the air as things are.  So that made me super uncomfortable.
  As we were talking he starts to get mad at me for working weekends. That is the position I was hired for and I have asked to switch to a normal schedule which I was supposed to do, but the nurses they hired for that did not stay through orientation and now I have to wait till september when they have new nurses in that position. He keeps going on about I should "put my foot down" about it or I could find a new job. I don't want a new job and I can't put my foot down to make them give me a regular schedule, they need someone to work the weekends and it costs more to hire travel nurses. That is the position I was hired for no amount of "putting my foot down" is going to make them move me until they have someone to work that, it's always difficult to find people to work weekends. So then he says he's going to start camping on the weekends because he can't "put his life on hold." That hurt me, camping is our thing and we haven't been in a while. Maybe it was just that we were talking right after work, but I felt like he was saying it to punish me because he said "you can think about that while you're working." And then proceeds to tell me he "can't make me feel a certain way." And when I started to get frustrated about the work argument he accused me of yelling, I was not yelling, yes my voice was raising a bit but I was certainly not yelling. Then he tells me that if he has to learn to control his anger I need to learn to control my frustration. To me there is quite a difference between being a little frustrated in discussion and acting out anger/rages inappropriately. I feel like I'm not allowed to have any negative feelings ever. I was thinking about moving back this week and trying to put some communication techniques into practice, but now I'm not sure we're ready.
   He sent me a text late last night saying he after he left my work he started crying and going went to bed. Why? What did he expect showing up at my work? A party? I kissed him and thanked him for the gift. He says he cries all the time because he doesn't know we'll be ok for sure (maybe that's why he bought such an expensive gift?) and is hurt that I told him I keep myself from crying. Yeah, I know it's not healthy, but I feel like if I did I would be crying at work all the time. He interprets that as I am not hurt like he is and he's not as important to me. I do love him, I'm just not sure I have the patience and the emotional stamina for this and he does not appear capable of giving me the time I need to try to determine that. So now I just don't know what to say to him or do. I haven't even tried the jewelry on because he might have to return it. And I don't know if we're really still celebrating our anniversary on Wednesday. I'm just as lost as ever.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Nixie_3,

  to you and thank you for your dedicated work as a nurse! That's not "just a job", it's something society really needs and it does come with irregular hours and shift work. I'm concerned your H isn't able to understand this - he is only thinking about your availability to him and thinks that should be your top priority. My H has always complained if I work extra hours, odd hours, etc. and I can hear that it's not that he is worried I am being unfairly treated or exploited, he is just worried I won't be available and present with him. My job doesn't matter to other people's lives like yours does, but it would still be nice to have more flexibility in this respect.

The thing with going to bed to cry is interesting. My H also does this at points of great emotional stress. It's a very strange childlike response. Maybe it is a form of self-soothing or trying to hide from the emotions, or just hiding from the situation or from other people? My MIL has told me that as a child my H used to "put himself to bed any time of day whenever he was tired" - I don't believe that had anything to do with being tired, did you ever know a kid do that? They will sleep in a chair rather than go to bed voluntarily. I think it was this behavior.

It sounds like you haven't moved back in yet. Do you think it would work to say that you don't think it's appropriate to celebrate your anniversary while you're on a break and you should both take some time to think things over? My MC was suggesting to me (in the context of suggesting counselling) that it might work to share with my H that I am also scared / uncertain about the situation. I'm not sure, I also get that feeling that I'm not allowed to have negative feelings myself, so I worry that this might backfire.

Alternatively, could you insist that the celebration is dinner in a public place and not going away or getting alone together? (And mentally prepare yourself for the possibility / likelihood of a walkout by him). Would he be any better in that situation? You'd need to wear the jewelry which means if it includes earrings he can't return it, but that's his risk. It was a manly gesture to buy it, although not to tell you how much it cost, as you say. It sounds like you have or could get a therapy appointment on the anniversary, is that happening? How would it work out to plan dinner afterwards and then cancel if either of you don't think the therapy went well?

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Nixie_3,
So sorry you're struggling with figuring out your next steps regarding this relationship.

As you know from reading posts here, there's a wide spectrum of BPD behavior, ranging from extreme acting out to mild dysfunction.

Having been married to a man with the extreme type of behavior and now being married to a man with the mild form, I thought I'd offer my two cents.

Even had I known how to use the tools I've learned here with husband #1, I still think the relationship would have ultimately been doomed. He was just too damaged. Years later, I still get calls from creditors trying to track him down for unpaid bills, so I know he's not being a responsible human being.

With husband #2, using the tools has allowed me to step away from conflict and enjoy a peaceful relationship. That said, the BPD doesn't go away and the "perfect relationship" that I thought we had in the beginning is a distant memory. I'm aware that I always need to be mindful in a way that I wouldn't with an emotionally healthy partner.

I did marriage counseling with #2 and it yielded very little, other than slightly improved communication. Later I went back to that psychologist for individual counseling and she told me that he has a personality disorder.

It's so tempting to want the wonderful relationship that drew you to your spouse in the beginning, but all accounts here point to the inevitable pattern of Dr. Jeckyl turning into Mr. Hyde over time. Yes, you often reencounter the good Dr., but Mr. Hyde can be right around the bend. What you can learn here will help create more space for Dr. J and help you avoid Mr. H, but it's a twofer deal; you can't have only the good one.

What kept me in relationship for far too many years with husband #1 were the animals we shared. Much like with other members who have children, I couldn't bear splitting up the "family." Then we acquired property together and unraveling the marriage became even more problematic. But I finally had had enough and made that decision. Even though the logistics were very difficult, obtaining my freedom from #1 was worth it and never, not for a moment, have I regretted it.

Imagine your life 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 25 years from now. Is this the man you want to spend your life with?

 
Cat

[Nixie_3]

Is this the man I can see myself with in 10 or 25 years? I'm not sure. I thought I was sure wednesday. Our counseling session went well and I agreed to move back so we could work on things. We even went to dinner to celebrate our anniversary ( but BetterLanes, I think you were right and I didn't feel it was appropriate at the time to celebrate when things were so up in the air).
  Wednesday was very nice, yesterday and friday went well. Of course, he was at work those days. He even kept the jewelry. He told me, as I recall, we could keep it, exchange it, or return one item but it was up to me. Then he kept saying things as I was considering it about them being a family heirloom and stuff that sounded to me like he really wanted me to keep them. So I said, ok, I will keep them. Now he's upset because I "didn't include him in the decision" and he meant for me to only keep one piece. Ok, you said it was up to me and also did not include me in the decision of purchasing such items then gave them as a gift and then are going to act like I'm a jerk for keeping said gift after you gave it to me twice? I had given it back to his mother for him to return, he chose to keep it and present it to me a second time. He said he got them because his counselor had suggested to him that perhaps no one had ever shown me my worth or some nonsense. Well, I don't feel real valued when I'm treated like a jerk for accepting a gift given to me or when he would rather go on a trip with his friends on one of the few weekends we have together. He claims I'm being controlling because I would prefer if we did something together, without others, to spend quality time together. He keeps acting like I'm selfish for taking riding lessons for one hour a week.
 I like riding, it helps me build my confidence. Am I wrong for thinking that there is something quite different between spending an hour doing something for self-care and choosing to spend one of our few weekends together with friends instead of quality time?  I don't mind what so ever if he went riding every other weekend. I just am hurt and a bit confused that he doesn't want to spend time together after acting like he was practically dying without me. And he also acts like I want to work weekends andit's my fault I haven't "made"them move me to a regular schedule. I feel like he is being selfish and childish. Am I wrong? That's why I don't know, I really felt like things were optimistic but look where we are again already.

[Cat Familiar]

So you feel yourself wavering on whether or not you want to stay. When he's nice, it's enjoyable, but you're not sure about the future.

Sort of mixed messages from him about the jewelry. Is there anything about keeping it that is meaningful to you or has his push/pull regarding it made it awkward?

Riding? Motorcycles or horses? I'm way into my horses.   They return the favor.

Something to file away is that pwBPD are not good at the "fairness" calculation. It's heavily weighed by whatever they feel in the moment. So many members have issues with the inequality, but that's a given with the disorder. You just have to figure out how to make that work in your favor. Any ideas?

[Nixie_3]

I ride horses, and yes they do. What kind of riding do you do, Cat Familiar? I wish I did know how to make that fairness thing work in my favor.
Yes, I am wavering, I feel like at least daily. Today is another example, I felt yesterday we addressed some good things in counseling and when I left for work this morning he was very loving and funny. When I got lunch finally at nearly three thirty, I get a bunch of messages from him and his mother about cleaning this rental house that his family owns that we had moved out of. Granted, we have taken quite a while to finish cleaning it, but that's on both of us and I feel like he acts like it's if not all on my, mostly on me. I don't mind discussing cleaning it out and I sent his mother a text back right away since she addressed me reasonably. I ate before I replied to my husband because he texted me about how I don't care about his family, it's not a priority for me, his mom has been on his back about, he's been crying all day, I've been ignoring him (phones are not allowed at work, so no)... .I got seven texts from him. Seriously, don't text me while I'm at work! I just got done dealing with a very emotional, sad family and I need to keep my mind on work, which I'm not doing as well because I felt compelled to post here because I am absolutely dreading going home tonight. Why is he crying? And why is that supposed to be my responsibility? I feel sad and empathetic when I see others cry (including my husband, usually) but right now I am just disgusted. What is he? A baby? I am at work, stop bothering me! I've been back at home for about a week and at least half of that has been arguments or other emotional upheaval and I'm just starting to get supper tired of it all. The counselor keeps making me think there's hope for us, but my friend disagrees and I'm not sure what I think. I'm still not certain if I love as anything more than a friend anymore. I'm really not attracted to him right now. He's not just an awful mess all of the time, obviously, he has his good points, I just am not sure I have the I don't know tenacity? Patience? Compassion? to see this through. I just can't believe my first day back at work after moving back and it feels exactly like the same crap all over again that makes me feel anxious and sick to my stomach.

[Cat Familiar]

So you’re feeling a bit hopeful after doing counseling and talking about important issues and it’s a relief to see him happy and loving. Then abruptly he’s back to being stressed about cleaning the rental and is expecting you to take the bulk of the responsibility for it.

He feels under pressure from his mother, acuses you of not caring about his family, texts you repeatedly while you’re working and tells you he’s been crying all day.

You deal with life and death at work and not only are you irritated by his numerous texts, his whining is not only inconsiderate of your job, but also makes you lose respect for him.

In the short period of time that you’ve returned to the home you share with him, you’ve experienced a lot of emotional turmoil that he’s created. Though the counselor makes you feel a glimmer of hope for the relationship, you wonder if what you’ve just experienced in the last several days is more likely.

It’s a lot to process. You see his good points and wish those would predominate. He’s so absorbed with his own issues, he doesn’t see the important work you are doing and wants your focus at inappropriate times.

I have to ask the important questions: what would happen if you were to become pregnant? Would he be able to support a family? What would happen if you were unable to work? Is this the person you want to spend your life with? Are you staying with him because you feel sorry for him?

Let’s go back to horses. I have a boundary with my husband that I ride horses. Period. It’s my mental health break, though I don’t tell him that. He can whine and complain about it, but that doesn’t change my behavior, so he no longer does. He just accepts the fact that I need horse time.

Mostly I do trail riding but I also ride English and my friends are encouraging me to compete in Cowboy Dressage. I’m not a competitive person by nature, but my mare would do well. She’s got reining bloodlines, a great granddaughter of Hollywood Dun It. My Morgan gelding is getting on in years, but he loves to teach new riders and go on trail rides. Horses have kept me sane in trying times. I encourage you to keep your time with them precious and inviolate.

[Nixie_3]

I started learning western, but I switched to English about six months ago and I really like it. My instructor said I could start showing in a walk and trot class. That sounds exciting, I just started riding a little more than a year ago so it would be fun to do something at one of the horse shows. I'm familiar with English dressage, but I don't think I've ever seen Cowboy Dressage.
   Those are important questions and as of last night I believe the answers are not happy ones. I thought marriage counseling was helping, but in some ways he seems worse. Last night he accused me of lying about being at work because he texted me right when I got to my car and my phone sent back the automatic "I'm driving" reply. He actually demanded I send him a picture of the hospital. I did not and told him it was hurtful and unwarranted. I did not get an apology, all he said was he thought it was earlier then it was (before I usually get off). Then he comes home after midnight (works second shift), throws on all the lights and is stomping around. It wakes me up, I had gone to bed because I had work, and I ask him to stop making so much noise and he starts yelling at me about how inconsiderate I was not to get him dinner, as he started to escalate I just left and went to bed. This morning when I was getting ready for work, he "apologizes". He says "I'm sorry for yelling but I was hurt you didn't get me dinner." And it was just an argument after that because I told him I was hurt he didn't apologize for his false accusations. And he says "I wish you would just leave," sounding like he means leave him not just go to work. And honestly, I think it may be time. I was holding out hope for that loving man I fell in love with, but I don't see things getting better and I was actually disgusted by his skin touching mine when he finally came to bed. I don't want to sleep with someone who treats me so disrespectfully. I feel I've come to a decision but I'm stuck in the fog. I feel guilty for failing both him and his mother, but I just can't keep doing this. I deserve better.