His kids have it: BPD boyfriend's son is self-harming

[Radcliff]

He was lucky to have you, even more than was already clear in this thread.  It is sad that the illness prevents our pwBPD from seeing how much their "nons" are there for them, and sad for us "nons" when our needs are not met.  If you had to list all the feelings that you are feeling now, what would that list be?

WW

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Harri]

There is guilt that I’m stepping back further, that here he is with a kid threatening self harm and suicide. In the past he has used it to manipulate his dad. His son does need help... .  Its a mess and my co dependency issues come out. I’m a lot better than last year not swooping in to save the day. I saw him for an hour this morning. He worked a 12 hour day and so did I running my own business. I’m going to work hard tomorrow and try not to call him. I’m going to slowly “wean” myself from talking to him to make it easier in the long run. it takes time. Yesterday I forced myself not to answer his texts immediately, even when he got upset with me for not immediately answering him. In the past I always answer right away, even though mine often don’t get acknowledged. I’m more at peace with if it works it works, if it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I don’t get anxiety anmore that it will be over. I feel like what will be, will be.

Hi calmcollected.  We haven't met before so I want to say hi.  I read this thread and the response I quoted above caught my eye.  I can relate to having to force yourself to stop fixing and helping.  It goes against every instinct you have  inside doesn't it?  It is hard but I think you are doing very well fighting the almost reflexive urges.  It is good that you can see them too, but changing how you interact is what is so important here.  Good for you! 

I don’t get anxiety anmore that it will be over. I feel like what will be, will be.

I hear strength and acceptance here.  I imagine it was hard won though.  I think you are doing great and I am glad you are sharing on the board.  It is so important to look within and getting support while you try to change a lifetime of care taking behaviors is a smart thing to do.  Turn that caretaker instinct within.

[Calmcollected]

I felt a lot of sadness today. A need to be touched by him. He hasn’t in a very long time. I’m not conceited, but I do know that men find me very attractive. I get hit on all the time. This week I got invited out to a guys house to look in his barn. For the last year he has been bringing me items that I can use for my designs. Last week he had come in and said he had more stuff for me and would bring it by. Then he showed up at my shop and invited me to come take a look as it would be easier. When I got there, I realized he was trying to find a way to get to know me. Just an hour ago another man I know was messaging me telling me how beautiful I am and wants to take me out. The only thing I want is for my BPDbf to make an effort. Its only when he thinks I’m leaving that he does.
I’m considering contacting the man who had me at his farm and seeing if he would like to have dinner. I want to be with someone that reciprocates my feelings. Sometimes though, I feel like he’s a drug and I’m addicted to him. I need to try to distance myself more. Today I brought him coffee while he was finishing up a job. There was no thank you or acknowledgement that I had done so. Just expectation.

[Harri]

Hi.  I am sorry to hear that yesterday was such a difficult day for you.  Sometimes just sitting with our feelings is the best thing we can do.  Feelings just are and as difficult as they may be they do change in time. 

I understand wanting to reach out to someone who does pay attention and helps you feel good about yourself when you are with them.  I think it is natural to feel that way given the circumstances.

Are you able to just sit with your feelings without judging them, just noticing them and acknowledging them without acting on them? 

What can you do to take care of yourself?

[Panda39]

Hi.  I am sorry to hear that yesterday was such a difficult day for you.  Sometimes just sitting with our feelings is the best thing we can do.  Feelings just are and as difficult as they may be they do change in time.  

I understand wanting to reach out to someone who does pay attention and helps you feel good about yourself when you are with them.  I think it is natural to feel that way given the circumstances.

Are you able to just sit with your feelings without judging them, just noticing them and acknowledging them without acting on them?  

I just wanted to chime in, I'm sorry you are feeling/being so neglected it totally sucks!  

I agree with Harri for a couple of reasons.  Jumping into another relationship when you haven't finished the first never works out well  (been there done that   even if the attention initially feels good in the short term, it doesn't resolve the issues you have with your bf in the long term.

It's also unfair to the man who is interested in you.  He deserves to have someone who is present for him, interested in him, and wants to be with him, not because it soothes your feelings about your bf.

I say this from experience... .from marrying my "rebound man" for all the wrong reasons... .to prove to my ex that I was desirable, to prove that someone could commit to me when he could not, to get married because at 26 I thought that was what would please my critical mother, and that I was doing what society expected of me... .I married him for a million reasons and none of them were because I loved him. I married him because he asked and I was hurting.

So I totally understand why you want to reach out to someone else but I encourage you to like Harri says, just sit with those feelings.  They are uncomfortable and they suck but in acting on them you will inflict more pain on yourself and pain on others.

From my experience you need to work through your current relationship and heal from it before you can be there for someone else.

I encourage you to think about your current relationship.  I often found myself thinking about what the other person wanted/needed/deserved and not about what I wanted/needed/deserved.  So I ended up settling for relationships that were lopsided, all about them, blamed myself for the relationship ending (when in reality the relationships just didn't work... .we tried/we failed... .no one was to "blame".)  It took me a long time to think about me, what I wanted/needed/deserved and whether or not I was receiving those things.  

I think it is good that you are thinking about what you need for you,  and if you are getting that in your current relationship.  Those are important questions to ask yourself.

Hang in there,  
Panda39
 

[Calmcollected]

Thanks. These are all things I know all ready. I wouldn’t act on them. Its just nice to know that there are options. I do love my bf. when we broke up in January I went on dates and was totally upfront about the situation, but they didn’t care. After 2 weeks I stopped because I felt like I was cheating. I would actually rather be alone than without him at this point. Today again, we were to spend time together and instead his 34 year old showed up at his house & started a huge fight with his 17 year old brother and now we aren’t.
This craziness & drama are just too much.

[Panda39]

There seems to be a lot of dysfunction here a lot of acting out by everyone in your bf's family... .everyone acting out to get attention.  Negative attention is still attention    You seem to be put in the position to be in competition with your bf's children for his time.  There seems to be triangulation going on here... .but everyone seems to be vying for the "victim" position.

More on the Karpman Triangle...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

His cutting son by his actions to me is absolutely screaming for help.  I may have missed this but are any of these children receiving any therapy?  How do their mothers play in the picture? 

How would you describe your role in the mix? If any. Do you see yourself on the triangle?  What role do you find yourself in most? What are you getting out of this relationship?  Are you getting what you want/need/deserve?

Panda39

[Learning2Thrive]

I understand wanting to reach out to someone who does pay attention and helps you feel good about yourself when you are with them.  I think it is natural to feel that way given the circumstances.

Are you able to just sit with your feelings without judging them, just noticing them and acknowledging them without acting on them? 

What can you do to take care of yourself?

Hi Calmcollected 

Harri offers some excellent wisdom. I know it’s very difficult, but I encourage you to focus on you today... .and tomorrow. And the next day and the next... .

What would happen if you give yourself the same amount of love,kindness and compassion you have continually given your bf?

I think I have been where you are.

I understand the desire to help your partner and pull them through. And you recognize he resonds when you appear to be moving on.

It hurts so much and words can’t even begin to describe the drive to help. Something deep within is driven to show compassion, empathy, love and kindness? Maybe it’s the love, compassion and kindness you desire and deserve... .but never received? And maybe, even subconsciously you have realized that he pulls you back when you seem to be ready to move on to someone else?

 No wonder seeking comfort with someone new seems appealing.

I want you to know you absolutely are worthy of love, kindness, compassion, respect and joy, Calmcollected. Especially and most importantly your own.

The pain you feel is real. It is toxic. But at the same perhaps time you struggle. You don’t want to give up on him—because maybe you need someone who won’t give up on you? 

Please give yourself the same gifts you have given him.

You are amazing, unique and ever so worthy. You, above anyone else on this planet deserve your own love and compassion and respect.

  L2T

[Calmcollected]

I’m out of triangle & quite aware of it. When I start to get dragged in, I remove myself from it. I haven’t been around his kids since the beginning of the year except for one time when his daughter showed up at the job site and beeped her horn until he dropped what he was doing to go and talk to her. She did that because I was there. His son has been referred to a psychiatrists and is waiting for his first visit. I had arranged for counselling for him through his probation officer because of his extreme anger and the fact he pushed me out of the house. Before our relationship was good and I know that he loves me. The eldests mother left. They were 17 when they had him and my Bf kept him. He has 2 other children from mothers that do like me. He had 3 kids with a second woman in his early 20’s that left the two youngest at home by themselves and the house burned down with them in it. His last two, the daughter that sits in her car and his 17 year old. That mother is an alcoholic and mixes prescription meds. I’m 5 years younger than her and she looks 20 years older. She is estranged from her son. His son has said I did more for him in a year than she did for him in a lifetime.
None of the other kids will go to therapy or have the skills of seeking it out.
Everyday that goes by, I see the futility. Everyone on these boards have trouble with their ine BPD. I’m dealing with 4.

[Learning2Thrive]

Everyday that goes by, I see the futility. Everyone on these boards have trouble with their ine BPD. I’m dealing with 4.

Yes, that is a lot to deal with and so overwhelming. That’s why it’s so important for you to take extra good care of you. 

Truly, I know first hand and can definitely empathize as I actually have several uBPD and uNPD individuals in my life. One uBPD ex-lover, one uNPD ex-husband (with whom I had 2 children, both of which are grown and independent but one shows strong BPD traits), one sibling who is diagnosed cPTSD with strong BPD traits, and a uNPD/sociopathic mother. It was EXHAUSTING!

I had to give myself a break and establish healthy boundaries so that I could take care of me. The interactions with them kept me running ragged and believing that everything would be better after I did this one more thing (fill in the blank) for them. Or, if I would just accept their abuse and pretend it never happened so they could feel better because they were so “fill in the blank”.

I had to accept that I am the only one who can provide me with lasting peace and true happiness. Through therapy, a lot of introspection and practical use of the tools and resources here, my life has completely changed for the better. I still have tough days sometimes, but there is a peace now that I never had before.

All this to say, I really do understand. Only you can decide what is right for you. We’re here to listen and support you with tools and resources to help reduce conflict.

Sending you positive energy and good thoughts.

  L2T

[Calmcollected]

So I found out what happened yesterday at the house. This morning my BPDbf said he had a terrible morning. When I asked what made it so terrible, he told me not to push. I went to the job site and went for a ride with him to get supplies. He eventually let out that his older son had come over and was saying his younger brother owed him for living in his house for the last 3 months. He had him selling for him that whole time & it was a large quantity. He wanted him back there to continue. The older son was supposed to show up at work today, but didnt because he got home really late and was too tired. My BPDbf said hes done forever. That he wants his new girlfriend to know who he really is. We drove up to the job site and our employee was there working his heart out. I said what a good worker he was and how he was extremely loyal to my BPDbf and looked up to him. He replied, hes more loyal to me than my own kid.
This is good for 2 reasons. The older son manipulates everyone to be against me and knows how to do it. One of the fights I had with his youngest was about his older brother and how I knew what he was selling. He insisted I was wrong, that his brother wasnt into heavy stuff and defended him. I have now been proven right. The last week he has been out of his brothers  house his mood has lightened and he is back to himself. I think the self harm may be the things he was being forced to do.
I spoke to my BPDbf today and said to ask the youngest if I can take him out to supper so we can rebuild our relationship. He seemed open to the idea.
Fingers crossed.

[Learning2Thrive]

Hi Calmcollected,

My BPDbf said hes done forever. That he wants his new girlfriend to know who he really is

Do you believe he will follow through on his words?

Do you have a plan of action in the event he does not?

I spoke to my BPDbf today and said to ask the youngest if I can take him out to supper so we can rebuild our relationship. He seemed open to the idea.

Is this really the kind of relationship you want? Are you referring to rebuilding the relationship with your bf ? Or are you referring to the adult child?

  L2T

[Calmcollected]

The relationship I would like to rebuild is with his 17 year old son. We always had a great reationship until January. My Bf has been estranged from his eldest before. 4 years when he wouldnt stop getting in trouble with the law, & 1 year when I first met my bf and his eldest son had at that time given his 14 year old brother pot to sell at school to make $20.
The eldest is the biggest problem. Always manipulating, in trouble with the law, I believe he is a sociopath.
The youngest has now seen and understands that the brother he has always looked up to does not have his best interest at heart and lied to him about what he really does.
When I said he is done forever, I mean working for the company.

[Calmcollected]

Yesterday friends and people in a similar  businesss to ours sub-contracted us to do some work. They are a husband & wife team. When my BPDbf doesn’t tell me things, he will talk to them. I asked if he had said anything about his eldest, and he had. His eldest son yesterday  kept caling my BPDbf’s phone & he didn’t anwer. Then he received a message saying “we need to talk”. He told our friends that he didn’t want to talk to him and he was going to have to cut ties with his son to protect his other son.
If he does this, it wil provide the space for healing. The eldest son turns everyone against me. The youngest boy loved me. We spent a lot of time together. If he was in trouble, or needed help, I would be the first one he called. The eldest would tell people how he orchestrated fights between everyone in his family. With him gone, it will be different.

[Panda39]

If your bf goes no contact with his older son, it might make things easier in some ways, but keep in mind that this will be very difficult and painful and guilt filled, for your bf.  He will need your support.  I've gone through this with my SO's daughters and their uBPDmom, D17 is low contact and D21 is no contact.

Also keep in mind that this is now and things could look different and change in the future. You will need to be adaptable.

Panda39

[Calmcollected]

I know. I’ve gone through it with him all ready. His main concern was not seeing the grandchildren, but we have a good relationship with their mother who said he can see them anytime.

[Learning2Thrive]

... .he received a message saying “we need to talk”. He told our friends that he didn’t want to talk to him and he was going to have to cut ties with his son to protect his other son.
If he does this, it wil provide the space for healing. The eldest son turns everyone against me. The youngest boy loved me. We spent a lot of time together. If he was in trouble, or needed help, I would be the first one he called. The eldest would tell people how he orchestrated fights between everyone in his family. With him gone, it will be different.

  Calmcollected

I’m a little confused.

Are you saying your BPDbf will have more time to focus on you and will start meeting your needs once the eldest son is cut off? 

What happens if your bf doesn’t cut him off?

What happens if he does but still doesn’t make an effort to meet your needs?

  L2T

[Calmcollected]

No, the oldest son causes dysfunction throughout the whole family. I believe he is a sociopath as well as a drug dealer & user.  If its not me, he turns his attention to someone else in the family and causes drama triangles. When he wasn’t around, everything was calm and much more functional. When you take him out of the dynamics, its a different world. He announced last year to our crew that he enjoyed ruining his dads life and caused fights between my BPDbf & me & knew how to get rid of me, his youngest son, his daughter etc. On the job site there were fist fights he would orchestrate by causing paranoia between former friends etc. It was insane. He went around telling people he owned the company. He would tell people he was going to hire them when we were overstaffed & he didn’t have the authority to do so. The small amount of time he has worked this year he has lied to new staff about former staff. He has tried to submit twice the amount of hours he has actually worked and doesnt show up.
His younger brother that was self harming is no longer doing so now that he is not living with him.
With his lifestyle he will end up in jail. Its just a matter of time.

[Learning2Thrive]

I understand how having the eldest out of the picture would lessen the drama and chaos. I agree that would improve the situation. But, your bf has allowed this to go on for quite a while. What happens if your bf doesn’t cut him off?

What happens if he does cut oldest son off but your bf still doesn’t make an effort to meet your needs?

I understand you care and you want to help your bf and his children. But what about you? You are worthy of having a safe, mutually loving, reciprocal relationship with your bf. You deserve to have a partner who is as thoughtful of your needs as you are of his.

  L2T

[Radcliff]

Wow, CalmCollected, that really helps us to understand how disruptive his eldest son is!  You care so much for your bf and his youngest son, and it must be very hard to watch their healing and growth interfered with by someone with such destructive tendencies.  It seems like striking a balance between letting your bf own his own problems and giving him support to move in a healthy direction would be a very difficult challenge.  What are your thoughts on that?

WW

[Calmcollected]

Wentworth, thats what I’ve been doing. I haven’t been bringing up his son & what he’s going to do. He hasn’t been at work at all this week. This week has been tumultuous. My BPDbf is lashing out and angry. Nitpicking at the smallest things. I told him that I know he didn’t mean to make me feel unloved and that he was stressed about the decision he had to make about his eldest and that I supported him in whatever decision he made.
Last week we were working together and I talked with him and told him that if he didn’t start making an effirt for quality time for us, he was going to lose me. He asked if that was a threat and I said no, we were drifting apart and needed to work on it.
That conversation slipped from my mind. Yesterday I realized that its been on his this whole time. He showed up at the bank to meet me & was really angry. I spoke to the teller first and it set him off. When we got outside he went on a tirade about how I disrespected him inside but not alowing him to deal with it. (We were transferring money from his account to mine as I had lent him money to cover payroll the last time) How I haven’t changed in 2 years, how I disrespected him on a quote by asking the client questions, how he was going to buy a printer to do everything himself from now on (he doesn’t have a computer) etc etc & snowballed. I didn’t jade.
Then the truth came out. He said “I’m just going to move on, you’ve pretty much made up your mind to move on, so I am too”
I told him that I was not leaving, that we needed to work on us and we needed to do something together this week-end in order to to that. He said “like what” I told him anything he liked. I told him I was moving ahead with my life. My divorce settlement is coming. There are 2 places I’m considering putting an offer on & will need his help with for repairs. I explained there were 2 bedrooms in both, so room for all of us.
Then he blustered a bit and said he was leaving.
I know he has painted his eldest black. When he would try to turn my boyfriend against me, he had the advantage of being his son. But this time he has harmed the youngest brother who is his fathers favourite and needs protection. He gave his younger brother drugs when he was 14 to sell at school so he could make money for spending. Thats when the year of no contact happened. That was just once. When he got involved with something much worse, they were estranged for 4 years.
Having his brother live in a drug house, sell for him and then threaten him to continue in his eyes is the ultimate betrayal.
I will continue to hang back on that issue and just work on us. If it doesn’t work out, so be it.

[Radcliff]

Good work not JADEing at the bank.    I'm still really sorry to hear that that happened, though.  Those kind of cut-downs, even if they are not credible, still can hurt a lot.

It sounds like you work hard to be sensitive to him, though it sounds like a lot of your conversations happen on the go, and there's not really time to sit down and get comfortable to focus on a quiet conversation.  I see the irony here, though -- you're saying that's the problem, right -- that you guys don't get time together to work on things?

I have a question that may be out in left field, or may be worth considering.  Have you ever thought about having him pay you for the work you do for his business?  Here's my thinking... .your value as a gf and as a contributor to his business seem all mixed up together.  You are doing real work for him, and getting little in return.  There's no cost to him, so why shouldn't he get whatever he can out of you?  The labor rate isn't that important.  You could pick a low rate that wouldn't throw off his business.  If he said that he wanted you to do things for him as his girlfriend, that doesn't really work for you because you're not getting boyfriend time from him.  The main idea here is that you are not "free."  You and your contributions as a gf and business worker have value, and they should be honored.  Getting paid gets at the business side of things, and introduces the fact that you have value.  This is just an idea.  What are your thoughts?

WW

[Calmcollected]

I think thats a great idea. I will present it to him tomorrow. I had something else happen today that I’m not sure we’ll come back from as a couple. But I will present the wage issue. It makes sense.

[Radcliff]

I think thats a great idea. I will present it to him tomorrow. I had something else happen today that I’m not sure we’ll come back from as a couple. But I will present the wage issue. It makes sense.

I'm sorry to hear there's been another bump.  Give us an update when you have time!

WW

[Calmcollected]

I think this is more than a bump. I’ve been devalued to blackness. This feels final. I found out yesterday he took a woman to a family barbecue to his oldest sons house. I had messaged that I had heard he was seeing someone else, but coming from his son and it might not be true. His former daughter in law told me his grandsons had  met papas new girlfriend and she’s nice. I messaged him the womans name & said we need to talk. He called right away, for the most part was calm. Said she was just a friend and maybe he should start dating her. I wasn’t going to tell him who he could and could not be friends with. Then it became about me and the dates I went on when we broke up in January, how I called the police on his kids etc. Then he brought up a friend that I use for advertising my business and said I was friends with him and have fun ___ing him. I told him I considered it wrong by going out with another woman and that we should just keep things professional. I offered to do his work, but would have to go on payroll. He got very angry & said he wanted to have nothing to do with me and never wanted to see me again. I had asked earlier in the conversation if he was going to do the work on the house I was considering buying and he said no, He owes me money & I offered it as a solution to wipe out his debt. He asked for the passwords to his facebook business page, but I’m blocked now, so he can’t tranfer it.  I told him I needed the plates off inactive vehicles & trailers in my name tomorrow so I could return them and register them off the road. He said fine. He is also going to pay me back money he borrowed the other night. The conversation went back to never wanting to see me again and how he doesn’t care about me at all anymore. He’s putting everything up for sale including his harley & leaving. I asked if he had ever loved me or if he still did and he told me not to ask sych stupid questions ( he says that when I ask questions with obvious answers)
It was his birthday yesterday. People were leaving many messages on his facebook page and there is one woman from his home town that had been making sexual innuendos before and he would banter back. She made a kiss emoji and said she hoped he wasn’t working too hard. He is going back home this  week-end.
He has had emotional affairs before.
I messaged him that I had unpublished the business page and it was ready for transfer. I took down all the online ads and he would have to post his own. He was free to purchase his business domain for his email & I would show him how. Its on auto message directing them to call or text him. I told him to stop giving out business cards with my number  and putting out the yard signs with my number. I told him that he doesn’t own his logo, but how to pay for and order more cards and advertising materials. I did this by text. I also asked him to return the birthday card I got him with a gift certificate for a tattoo since we were no longer together. I said I would use it for myself.
Last night I received a message frim his 81 year old landlord. He lives in a mobile home park. He has been hired to do contracts for them and he was offered the job of managing the park as it has been sold to the landlords sons. He said he had given my exBPDbf’s 17 year old son heck for having his friends over with their dirtbikes and wrecking the yard. He said my ex BPDbf came over & chewed him out for doing that. He said he had never seen him so angry and was taken aback by it. He was afraid of him. I explained what had happened yesterday & that his anger was for me and not him. It was no excuse, but I diffused the situation. He could have been evicted for it. He asked why he had the mobile home up for sale and I told him it was because he owed me money.

[Calmcollected]

I just came to a self realization. He did pull back like this when he was having multiple emotional affairs before. When it stopped, we were good. I’m done now.

[Radcliff]

I just came to a self realization. He did pull back like this when he was having multiple emotional affairs before. When it stopped, we were good. I’m done now.

We are 100% behind you whatever path you take here.  It sounds like you've done a number of things in order to hand the reigns of his business over to him.  It's pretty likely he'll contact you again.  What's your plan if he does?

WW

[Harri]

This thread has been locked due to reaching the post limit.  Part 2 has been started and can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=327732.0