Processing losses that we aren't allowed to grieve (2)

[pearlsw]

Hey all,

I'm back! We reached the page limit!

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325979.0;all

Thanks again to all for the support and understanding! It means a lot to me!

Um, so... .gosh, it is not easy to keep up with the amazing and thoughtful replies here. It is hard sometimes for me when I start posts here and get so much feedback! It is great on the one hand, but a lot to process and think through, and it takes me a bit longer to reply than I'd like as I like. I appreciate your patience!

I want to be in a open place with all this, and yet there are parts I am still guarding. I am not sure I will ever feel totally safe after all that happened, and that is a bit of a hindrance in my recovery I think. We'll see... .

It is so interesting for me all the mixed feelings I had towards each person. One emotion I have always had some trouble with in life is anger. How much is too much? How much is not enough? How do you properly express it? I just naturally tend to see the best in people, and can't condemn them outright... .

But I wonder if I should write a bit about the ways in which each of them... .made me feel a bit taken advantage of. I mean, I want to maintain my sense of agency, and take my responsibility as an adult, but there is one piece of this puzzle that I would like to set right in my head, and that is... .the ways in which neither of them were fair to me, in a certain sense. (I was not fair to them either, fairness isn't possible in such a complicated circumstance... .sigh.)

I dunno. Again, I want to be sure to stay mindful and aware of my piece of this, but men... .they... .Well, I love them! I just do! And I can certainly assert myself with them, and I try to hold boundaries, but it is hard when it feels like they are... .pushing over them. And it is almost harder to keep them up with the ones I adore than with the ones I don't know so well.

Part of this, what made it hard for me to stop it myself, was this guy was a friend and a previous lover. I didn't know how to push him away, put the wall back up, and not lose him, but I didn't want this to go on either... .it just felt... .like being pulled... .and me being more afraid of being alone in this situation than... .than the consequences, of which I was not naive, but also not entirely prepared for given my partner's serious mental health issues.

I was amazed honestly at how much my partner understood and even sympathized with me at times and tried to even help me at times I would not have expected after this all came out. You know, I just can't condemn either one. I just can't... .I am a very balanced person who can always find the middle - like a weeble wobble!

I just wish all of our collective relationship problems and life stories hadn't hit this perfect storm that spun them even further out of control... .and gave us all more problems than we needed.

I still can't fully relax around my SO. He was always too jealous for my preferences and... .it got really bad for awhile, even as recently as what, last month? I can't find a real place of peace with him where I feel like I know who is waking up in our "home" everyday, though lately he's been on a pretty happy streak.

I am asking myself, do I keep personally investing in this or not? And I am just not ready to decide. I have no energy for therapy right now, and I seriously dread ever talking over these issues with him again, though I would in small bites if he'd stay calm - that I can do. Wickerman you are champ for being able to do that - therapy I mean! I guess it helps that she is not BPD, the other woman was?

But I don't want to poke the bear! I just don't! I know that is not the best thing, but there were eras in human history where people did carry on without that extra support and maybe we will be those people... .He honestly, doesn't... .He focuses on his interests and has a poor memory. He can't understand himself very well at all and seems to have little personal insight. He means well, he can even listen to me at times very well, stay quiet I mean while I speak, at least sometimes. I am not sure what he is getting but he tries. But the idea of him, imagining him in a room with a third person from a different culture than either of us, who are not from the same cultures, and me being told (I'm guessing) to speak more slowly and... .argh! It's too horrible to even envision.

I think I need to see first if he has more control over his mood swings. If he can show more self control then there is room to heal any wounds left to heal. I can honestly heal myself. I have no doubt about that. And he... .well, his only motivation would be to keep me... .

For me, a few good friends, a few weeks, and a few margaritas and I'd be fine and move well past all this. Much cheaper and more fun than therapy.  

in deep thought & still processing, pearl.

[Wicker Man]

Processing losses that we aren't allowed to grieve... .At face value we could presume the loss of our affair partners as the loss in question.  Perhaps we should also consider what exactly we have lost in a long and dysfunctional marriage.  It is truly terrible to have to face the loss of time, energy and innocence --the pain of marriage as a study in dysfunction.

I want to be in a open place with all this, and yet there are parts I am still guarding. I am not sure I will ever feel totally safe after all that happened, and that is a bit of a hindrance in my recovery I think. We'll see... .

Perhaps the portions of your experience you are still uncomfortable with could be written out and sent in emails to yourself.  Keeping an analog journal in your home may not be the best of ideas.  As we have previous mentioned  there is catharsis in having to articulate thoughts in writing.  It forces us to put them in some semblance of order.

... .I should write a bit about the ways in which each of them... .made me feel a bit taken advantage of... ... ..the ways in which neither of them were fair to me, in a certain sense.

If I were you I would focus on this.  Was this a matter of circumstance (context of difficult marriage and affair) or has this been a pattern in your relationships? 

... .it is almost harder to keep them up with the ones I adore than with the ones I don't know so well.

There is a fine line between empathy and codependency.  There has to be a healthy level of 'codependency' to make a relationship work, but it is easy for many of us to slid down the slippery slope of empathy into enabling. 

... .what made it hard for me to stop it myself... .

You are human and fallible.  When one finds themselves in a dysfunctional marriage it, in my opinion, causes a deep level of repression and root level unhappiness.  1/3 of married people admit to having had an affair -this means the percentage is likely far higher.  Pearlsw accept it, own it, and let any guilt go --attempt to process the 'why' of it.  Accept responsibility for the pain your affair caused and be gentle with yourself -you were hurt as well.

I was amazed honestly at how much my partner understood and even sympathized with me at times and tried to even help me at times I would not have expected after this all came out.

Ok -forgive me I am going to be a bit brutal here -but part time help from an affair partner is easy and nothing when compared to the heavy lifting of being in a long term relationship.  A marriage can never be compared to an affair and vice versa -apples and oranges.

I just wish all of our collective relationship problems and life stories hadn't hit this perfect storm that spun them even further out of control... .and gave us all more problems than we needed.

Life is a contact sport and we all end up bruised and bloodied.  The hope is we reach some sort of enlightenment as we pick ourselves up off the ground when we have been knocked down.

I still can't fully relax around my SO... ... ..though lately he's been on a pretty happy streak.

As you know my BPD experience was limited and we were still in the twilight of idealization when we parted, but I can only imagine how difficult it must be waking up each morning to uncertainty.  My presence and love still had a curative effect for Dream Come True.  In her last rage it dawned on me she would one day become 'tolerant' to my love and then I would have likely felt the full brunt of her disorder. 

I am asking myself, do I keep personally investing in this or not? And I am just not ready to decide.

If he is in an uptick at this point could you suggest he try therapy?  This might be telling.  If he is indeed willing to admit he has 'something going on' and seeks to alter his behavior through therapy it might give you some insight into whether you wish to continue in your marriage. 

If my wife had not chosen to embrace therapy for her OC(PD) I would not have returned to her.  --There would have been no hope of forward movement.  We would have fallen back into our soul numbing deadly slumber of comfort, discontent and malaise.  I demand more out of life.

I have no energy for therapy right now, and I seriously dread ever talking over these issues with him again, though I would in small bites if he'd stay calm - that I can do.

Your affair was a symptom, not the disease.  What needs to be discussed is the context, in your dysfunctional marriage, which laid the fertile ground from infidelity.  Discussing your affair ad absurdum would not fix your marriage -in fact it would only do further harm. 

The issue seems to be, from my limited knowledge of your situation, his insecurity which presents as rage and threats to leave.  If your husband does indeed suffer from BPD your affair may have put his fear of abandonment into over drive.  One of the hallmarks of BPD, from my limited experience and subsequent reading, is their hyper sensitivity. 

It is hard to remember when feeling the full brunt of their rage the driving force behind it is fear.  The tragic Catch 22 of BPD.  I understand it -their fear driven rage becomes a self fulfilling prophecy creating abandonment.  I now feel I understand why Dream Come True was raging in the last week we spoke -it was my being out of country and away from her.  The sad irony --I was here making the final arrangements in order to return to her 'always and forever' (to quote her).  BPD is tragic beyond words.

Wickerman you are champ for being able to do that - therapy I mean!

No, I simply put, realize I cannot process this on my own.  There are issues I have since leaving Dream Come True which I cannot alleviate on my own -if I do not address this psychic debt it will haunt me for the rest of my years.  I would not wish this level of pain on my worst enemy.  It is a matter of recognizing a weakness in myself which has given me the strength to begin the process of healing through therapy.

I guess it helps that she is not BPD, the other woman was?

Dream Come True appears to suffer deeply from B(PD).  My wife has been  diagnosed and medicated for OC(PD).  Personality disorders are a pervasive world view.  Neither personality disorder can be soothed without therapy, and neither can be 'cured'. 

Sadly B(PD) doesn't seem to respond well to medication.  OC(PD) can be mitigated to a level with medication, but the heavy lifting is done in therapy.   If you read about OC(PD) you will hear 'run' almost as often as with B(PD).  The two disorders present themselves in nearly polar opposition, but people suffering from both feel rage, sadness and isolation.  Both disorders make relationships challenging.

... .there were eras in human history where people did carry on without that extra support and maybe we will be those people... .

I presume by 'those people' you mean therapists.  Pearlsw how were women thought of and treated by their husbands in this era?  We are now in a more enlightened era where a woman's happiness is equally important to a man's happiness. 

I believe this is, perhaps, one of the reasons Dream Come True cannot accept the end of our relationship.  She was treated as my equal.  This was a unique situation for her personally and culturally.  She was not a thing, a trophy, or a slave.  I showed her kindness, understanding and offered her compassion.  At this risk of sounding arrogant I am not the guy you want to lose.

He focuses on his interests and has a poor memory. He can't understand himself very well at all and seems to have little personal insight.

This is not unique -it seems to be very typical male behavior.  It is not a death knell, it is possible to learn introspection and sensitivity.  However this is painful -learning and growth are always painful.  However, I feel staying in darkness and emotional ignorance is untenable, short sighted and ultimately leads to deep dissatisfaction in life.

But the idea of him, imagining him in a room with a third person from a different culture than either of us, who are not from the same cultures, and me being told (I'm guessing) to speak more slowly and... .argh! It's too horrible to even envision.

I leave every therapy session with my shirt damp from the effort -and I started as a sensitive and introspective being.  I tried to move Heaven and Earth to make my wife happy -after 25 years and an affair it has dawned on us we need some help.

I think I need to see first if he has more control over his mood swings. If he can show more self control then there is room to heal any wounds left to heal.

If he does indeed suffer from BPD from what I have read DBT is going to be his best hope.  The difficulty being people suffering from personality disorders do not innately understand there is anything wrong with them.  It is their world view.  It is incredibly hard for them to see there is something wrong and seek help.  For my wife it took my leaving for her to be shaken to the point of seeing there might be something wrong with her world view.

For me, a few good friends, a few weeks, and a few margaritas and I'd be fine and move well past all this. Much cheaper and more fun than therapy.

That is certainly always an option -but this entire thread is about you exploring your options.  Personally leaving Dream Come True has left a festering wound in my heart which is going to take quite a bit more than a few drinks with friends to undo and heal. 

There is no obvious answer, no quick fix.


Wicker Man

PS The cost of therapy is noise when compared to the expense of a divorce.  Hundreds when compared to thousands or millions... .  Therapy is a bargain.  (?) I honestly don't know if a smily face fits here, but we will go with it... .

[Wicker Man]

... .do I keep personally investing in this or not?

It takes incredible pain to drive us to a statement such as this.  However there is an incredible strength and possibly peace in having arrived at this crossroads. 

Ultimately, in a way, the balance of power in your relationship has swung completely to your side.  You are now in a position to determine what, if any, actions he would have to undertake to maintain your involvement.

This is not a sustainable state -as you well know from his ubiquitous threats to end the relationship.  However, at this point in time it seems you have been pushed and dragged to this nexus.

Having nothing to lose is a very very powerful position in which to be.  We all have the power of 'veto' in a relationship and it should never, in my opinion, be used as an idle threat. 

I am afraid Dream Come True 'broke up with me' as a bid for power in an argument.  Unfortunately, She made a bet with the stakes being our entire future --She 'raised' I 'called' rather than 'folding' and our hand was lost. Did I take this card metaphor too far?  Down side of a monologue... .Anyway you get the idea... .

I do not think you should threaten to leave your husband -but if you choose to attempt reconciliation you are certainly in a position to make strong suggestions in an attempt for betterment.

Wicker Man

[pearlsw]

Hey all,

Still a lot to get to here! Always insightful and fascinating to read your thoughts!

As I was driving back from work one day this week I thought of a few things I am sure of. One is that I do not want to do couple's counseling at this time, and probably would never want to do it with him, but if he asks nicely (or would say or do anything nicely) I'd be open... .But let's take that out of the mix for now please.

For me, well, private counseling is about 10 -16 sessions (hours) I think and I would rather spend those hours and energy elsewhere. The last two times I tried didn’t go well, and it’s not that I’m so burned I’d never try again, it’s that I talk and talk and they made stone faces and…I don’t need that. Sorry! I may be a unicorn on this site in those regards, but I find that sooner or later I’m fine with all that life throws at me.

I am not codependent. Never have been. Every time someone uses that term I go look it up again to be sure I am not misreading it, but nope. My issues are a bit different…and I use many other lens, aside from what little I know about psychology, to examine my life, and make sense of it all, and go forward.

I feel like I have my foot on each bank across a river.  On one side I am resilient, making it and managing and things might improve. On the other side, I am hopeless, tired, and not able to keep up with the onslaught of stress, disappointment, annoyance, and serious concerns.

I am not moving one inch towards improving things (big picture) until I can see how long of a stretch of “normal’ is possible with this human.

Tonight he got upset because he can tell I am not super excited about him, but I am not super excited about him because he push/pulls me, and has for the whole ride. I am pretty numb at this point. That is my concern. Me. I don’t want to end up dead inside. I remind myself it is temporary, I won’t be dead inside forever, but I’m feeling pretty numb lately and spending more time there - in the numbness.

My bigger question is about the nature of what is possible in this relationship.

And the reason I started this topic was to see if there was stuff left to process since I never got to process it really. I think. I can’t remember for sure, but I think until today I may not have gotten to even cry over this, for myself. I was so busy fighting off my SO’s verbal attacks, meltdowns, extreme behavior on a daily basis for over a year…a year and half of it maybe…to even catch my breath. It was high tide for a long time with no relief. Just waves of his emotions and no space for mine. Literally. I had to manage all of my facial expressions, down to that level of control... .

Back to my friend, I remembered today how it was the smallest of things that made a difference for me in this interaction. I remember that just the way my friend handed me a water bottle once was so…meant so much to me. Just a small act of kindness that meant everything. Just that he cared for me in such a simple way…to hand me some water for the road... .made me feel so cared for.

Keep in mind he was my only close friend these years we were in contact. I would not even call my SO a friend. (He doesn't meet the standards for me.) And beyond that I knew two other casual friends from language school who moved away. And that was about it. In over 5 years now. That is very isolated.

I am also sorting out the emotional abuse from the illness. If I fix on the emotional abuse part I don’t see how I can spend another day with him, and I never would have if not for that d*mn ocean. I don’t know how to stand next to him in front of others if that is the truth of things. And I d*mn sure don’t have to fix it or go to a marriage counselor if that is the most salient part. I just don’t know how to slot all the pieces yet because I haven't had any space to think. Mostly because I have no one to talk to but myself and here on the site…and there is always that giant gap between me and other humans…that space we all fall into where we aren’t quite understood. I don’t get a lot of understanding in life from others…it's been a pretty lonely life in that sense. You'd be amazed really at how disliked I am. I am! hahaahaha.

No, I’m not doing therapy. That is off the table for various reasons, two of them being that the last two times (with 2 different therapists) I was: 1) hit on by a therapist and 2) my SO used the therapy sessions to further emotionally abuse me. So, toughing it out, and sucking it up, and reading, and pushing through, and exercise (hopefully if my body holds up) are what I’m going with until I can get on firmer financial footing - bootstrapping myself to a better set of life options, again, if I can. I've all but given up on romantic love. I've given it my best shot with about 7 "serious" people by now, and I am heading towards retirement on this part of life, ready to close this chapter. I am making peace with it every day, and am ready to let go on this part of life. I am not bitter, I've been lucky in so many ways, it's just been enough, ya know? The downside is it has drained so much out of me... .and there are so many other ways to give and receive love that I am hoping could bring me enough satisfaction. Today I was given a big flower out of nowhere, at work, and it was... .such a nice thing. It takes so little to make me happy, too bad for my SO he was unable to give and receive love in a healthy way and realize what he had... .but asi es la vida.

I am okay. These few tears today for my lost friend were sufficient for now. My brain is doing me a favor to have built a wall up around those memories of him for now. At most I'd just like to restore him to a nice distant memory, the memories from decades ago, the ones that used to give me so much happiness. If I could have even a piece of that back... .that would be great... .just that little piece of unsullied "perfection"... .maybe someday.

Ultimately, no matter what my SO does he can’t take the beauty out of life and the world. I am much stronger than him.

[BeagleGirl]

I am also sorting out the emotional abuse from the illness. If I fix on the emotional abuse part I don’t see how I can spend another day with him, and I never would have if not for that d*mn ocean. I don’t know how to stand next to him in front of others if that is the truth of things. And I d*mn sure don’t have to fix it or go to a marriage counselor if that is the most salient part. I just don’t know how to slot all the pieces yet because I haven't had any space to think.

Ultimately, no matter what my SO does he can’t take the beauty out of life and the world. I am much stronger than him.

Pearl,
I'm glad to see you still processing. 

I want to give my opinion on the process of sorting "the emotional abuse from the illness".  I'm not going to say that it's not a valuable exercise, but I will say that I don't know that you will to find your answers there.  I went through a period of time when I thought that if I could understand dBPDxh's illness, I could learn to tolerate the emotional abuse.  The problem is that the illness may (or may not) be the root cause of the emotional abuse, but understanding that you are being hit by a hammer instead of a baseball bat does not make the pain any less, and we can only tolerate so much pain before we begin to break down.

In the book "Why does he do that" Lundy Bancroft posits the theory that mental illness is neither a cause of nor excuse for abuse.  I look at abuse as a pattern of behavior designed to control the behavior of another, rooted in the abuser's belief that s/he has the right to control the abused.  I know that BPD can result in hurtful behavior as the pwBPD attempts to cope with the their lack of sense of self and difficulty regulating their emotions, and I think it can be difficult to distinguish those hurtful behaviors from abusive behavior.  Having been married to a man who I believe was both BPD and abusive, I definitely have a hard time distinguishing them because they were wrapped up in the same package. 

Regardless of the root of the behaviors, they hurt.  While pain is a great motivator, people in pain don't tend to make the best long term decisions.  I totally relate to your need for "space to think".  I went through a period of "numbness" that allowed me to stay in my marriage, but when I started feeling again the pain became so intense that I knew I needed space to be able to ensure that I wasn't acting out of pain.  I was having nightmares almost every night and my anti-anxiety meds were barely knocking the edge off.  I started my separation from my dBPDxh hoping that the space would give me the perspective to see where the pain was coming from and how to cope with it.  It did achieve that.  I was able to see the patterns we were both following more clearly.  I was able to define what I needed in order to feel I could step back into a marital relationship with dBPDxh.  I was able to face the fears I had of NOT being in a marital relationship with dBPDxh.  I had hoped that the space would give me the time to recuperate the strength to go back and continue to fight for my marriage.  Instead it gave me the perspective to see that I needed to step back and allow my dBPDxh to be the one fighting for our marriage.  He chose not to.  I understand that his BPD makes it more difficult for him to takes the steps I required of him, but I also believe he has the capability to take those steps and I did everything I could to give him the resources to do so.

So if I view what you wrote through the filter of my experience, I think that understanding the patterns that fit "BPD behavior" vs the patterns that fit "abusive behavior" may help you feel more justified in letting go of one side of the "riverbank" or the other.  I also agree that marriage counseling is unlikely to be very profitable until your SO addresses the BPD and/or entitlement issues that make him feel it is acceptable to abuse you (If you haven't read "Why does he do that", I highly recommend it).  I also agree that your "SO can't take the beauty out of life and the world", BUT he can create so much FOG that it's difficult, if not impossible, to see it.

Pearl, do you think that you're ready to define what must change in order for you to stop straddling the river? 

BG

[Wicker Man]

@Pearlsw

Forgive me if I perhaps mentioned therapy too often. I ended up sinking into an emotional quagmire and have found talking it through in therapy has helped me.  Further, I kept (implying I won't bring it up again) mentioning therapy because of the benefits my OC(PD) wife had reaped from it.  As I mentioned earlier there is a wedge slowly being driven between her and her personality disorder.  --I had tried for 20 years and didn't have any luck.   

Today I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out how where the work I have been doing ends and the help from my therapist begins.  I am not sure what advice to offer you to proceed without the use of counseling. I am neither expressing nor implying I won't do my best to offer advice -I just need to figure out how to continue to be useful.

Without a doubt please allow yourself tears for you and your friend.  I cried over Dream Come True only yesterday, crying is, in my opinion, an invaluable part of the grieving process.  I look forward to the day I have no more tears for us, but that day must come in its own time. --However when the pain comes feel it, accept it and let it out.  With consideration to the subject of this thread we are not always given the space we need for the tears, but let them out when you can.

I am so sorry for the emotional abuse you are suffering -I was spared all but a glimpse of it and I can only imagine what the full brunt of a BPD partners fury might look and feel like.  I was never fully devalued, she made several bids for power, but we were still on quite equal footing when we fell apart. 

Is it possible for you to give your husband a time out if he starts to rage?  In other words if he begins to get out of hand suggest a 10 minute break from the conversation.   I have been doing this with my wife since our reconciliation.  If her anger starts to spin up I suggest a break, if that doesn't work I apologize and walk away for a short time.  Fortunately this has only happened if she triggers about the affair.  I am compassionate, understanding and loving, but if the wheels start to fly off and she becomes abusive I do my best to bring the tempo down. --Honestly I don't know how this would go with a BPD rage -it seems to work with OCPD rage... .  So tired of that word... .I hate rage... .

I hope his good behavior holds up for a while this time so you have some room to breath.

It was nice to hear you got a flower


Wicker Man

[pearlsw]

Hey all, thanks! Man, ya'll keep me on my toes! You really outpace me! 

Well, pretend you have a friend who isn’t able, for some reason, to go to therapy, but still needs support and being listened to. Saving the “marriage” is not the goal here. Getting with the friend again is also not the goal.

The goal is to just to restore my own humanity and dignity. I benefit by hearing about your therapy, even if I don’t want to do therapy. My “therapy” is just me taking care of me and I am totally fine with that. I don’t want to seem difficult or be a bad example to folks around here, but that is just where I’m at in life.

His emotions are a bit too much for me. I’m more Spock like than you’d imagine as much as you see me around offering support to folks. I was wondering about this aspect of myself, the part that gives so easily to others, and…what is the other side? Am I not taking as much because I learned not to rely on others or…I haven’t had anyone to rely on, or did I miss out on learning how to get my emotional needs met via others? I dunno. All I know is I’ve only truly been able to count on myself in life, others come and go. And that’s okay.

Ultimately, I just want the numb/dead parts of me to not be numb/dead from the onslaught of all this.

I am realistic about the low chances of my relationship and I’m okay with that. Once I either know I’ve given all I can, or the love is dead, than I’m out. I’ve saved it enough times to know I am the one who has and would do the heavy lifting to keep this thing from running aground. If he could just be closer to “normal”, and likely he can’t, I could manage well enough. We do laugh a lot nevertheless and if I could find a job here that pays a living wage I’d make that my life and fill in for the missing stuff with my hobbies/interests.

A more dynamic/accomplished life would be great, but…I’ve spent most of my life with no support system…and without one…it’s all pretty hollow, any successes…

[Wicker Man]

ya'll keep me on my toes! You really outpace me! 

That makes sense... .  We have you out numbered.  There are a lot of us who have care and concern for you and only one of you to write responses.

Well, pretend you have a friend who isn’t able, for some reason, to go to therapy, but still needs support and being listened to.

We aren't pretending, unless I misunderstand the point of this BBS we are all electronic friends here to actively listen and offer what advice our varied experiences allow. 

The goal is to just to restore my own humanity and dignity. I benefit by hearing about your therapy, even if I don’t want to do therapy. My “therapy” is just me taking care of me and I am totally fine with that. I don’t want to seem difficult or be a bad example to folks around here, but that is just where I’m at in life.

Some people don't care for the idea of therapy, some people do not believe it is effective, some people have had bad experiences with it.  You have to do what you feel is best for you -it is not a matter of being difficult or a bad example.  I should think you will find no more or less support from this board whether you were to embrace therapy or not.

His emotions are a bit too much for me.

This is going to be the biggest challenge -how to give yourself enough space for quiet introspection in the midst of his emotional maelstrom.

I was wondering about this aspect of myself, the part that gives so easily to others, and…what is the other side?

There is a joy in helping other.  Altruism.  The darker side of this can be putting our energy into helping others because we can't face our own difficulties.  I have, in the past, voiced a concern regarding my own activity here -am I using my time here for personal growth or avoidance?  I continue to keep a weather eye on myself.

All I know is I’ve only truly been able to count on myself in life, others come and go. And that’s okay.

I am sorry you have had to learn so much self reliance -it is a good thing, don't get me wrong, however I am guessing it was out of a matter of necessity. 

Ultimately, I just want the numb/dead parts of me to not be numb/dead from the onslaught of all this.

I tried 25 years of repression... .It didn't work and I found myself waking up in the middle of a nightmare of my own creation.  I am proud of your self awareness and you should be too.

I am realistic about the low chances of my relationship and I’m okay with that. Once I either know I’ve given all I can, or the love is dead, than I’m out.

This is a very difficult realization, but it certainly gives you a good vantage point.  In my marriage I hadn't realized I had arrived at this point -still repressing and holding onto the good parts, blithely ignoring the bad ones.  The cost of my blindness was enormous.

We do laugh a lot nevertheless and if I could find a job here that pays a living wage I’d make that my life and fill in for the missing stuff with my hobbies/interests.

Good for you for still seeing the positive amongst all the negatives.  I am still haunted when I think of Dream Come True's laugh and smile.  She was a genius and had a marvelous sense of humor.

A more dynamic/accomplished life would be great, but…I’ve spent most of my life with no support system…and without one…it’s all pretty hollow

Life is full of surprises and change -both good and bad.  There is yet time for you to find a dynamic life.  Friends are hard to come by later in life, but it is possible -where there is life there is hope.


Wicker Man

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Pearl,

Kudos to you for this personal journey you're on.  I respect your openness and willingness to examine your situation so closely.  As Wickerman states, your self awareness is a credit to you.  I don't want to derail your thread, but just had to latch onto one part of your last post.

I was wondering about this aspect of myself, the part that gives so easily to others, and…what is the other side? Am I not taking as much because I learned not to rely on others or…I haven’t had anyone to rely on, or did I miss out on learning how to get my emotional needs met via others? I dunno. All I know is I’ve only truly been able to count on myself in life, others come and go. And that’s okay.

If you didn't just describe the reasons for this in yourself, you certainly did when it comes to me.  I became furiously self sufficient at a young age because I had come to learn that others could withdraw their support at any time and I had to meet my own needs.  I believed I could not rely upon others.  

I had the hardest time ever accepting offered help or asking for it right up until 6 years ago.  It took for me to be completely incapable of functioning whatsoever when I was first diagnosed with my physical condition for me to be able to get over that reluctance.  Because I literally had no choice.  I'm still learning that my needs are important and deserve to be considered by others.  I took care of myself for so long.  Quite sure I could have easily gone my whole life without changing in that regard - it worked for me as it no doubt does for you.  

Deep down though I think I knew I deserved to have people whom I can truly rely upon.  Like it was a dream that I considered a flight of fantasy, but a dream nonetheless.  Opening up has been very uncomfortable and it's now my belief that discomfort is a good indicator of something that represents positive change.  What do you think?  After all, what is life if not a journey of growth which means we must at some point challenge our core beliefs?  

Just a reminder of an earlier part of your post:

Back to my friend, I remembered today how it was the smallest of things that made a difference for me in this interaction. I remember that just the way my friend handed me a water bottle once was so…meant so much to me. Just a small act of kindness that meant everything. Just that he cared for me in such a simple way…to hand me some water for the road... .made me feel so cared for.

Perhaps you are truly longing for someone to be that person on whom you can rely to actually care about those little things that you take care of yourself.  Just as I think I was, and it would seem, am.

Love and light x

[BeagleGirl]

Pearl,
    Add me to the club of people who have learned to be self sufficient to an unhealthy level. In fact, I will take care of myself AND everyone else. I have come to realize this behavior is rooted deeply because it started in my FOO.  My first clear memories are from age 5 when my daddy was sad and I hid my crying because I didn’t want to make him sadder and I needed him to not worry about me. I cannot tell you the number of times my parents said to me and others “We’ve never had to worry about BeagleGirl”. I understand now that contributed to how I approach the world. I would say that most of my friendships were lopsided, and not always because I befriended needy people. I’m sure there were friends who didn’t feel needed by me and the friendship didn’t mature because that takes a certain level of mutuality.

My affair partner was the first man in my life who seemed to feel some responsibility for caring for and protecting me. He worried about me running after dark. He opened doors for me. He was angered when someone hurt my feelings. He didn’t treat me like I was fragile. He knew I was capable of caring for myself, but he considered it an honor to be able to care for me. It was such a striking contrast to my dad, who seemed to “love” me because he didn’t have to worry about (care for) me, and dBPDxh who “loved” me because I made his life work and didn’t demand that he take responsibility for caring for himself, much less me. While I deeply regret my affair, it did open my eyes to the idea that I was worthy of being cared for.

Since then, I have been gifted with two incredible friends who have basically forced me to accept their loving care. It’s getting easier. And that success has made it easier (though still not easy) to ask for care from others.  My therapist has needed to coach me through a few rejections so that I now better understand indicators that someone is “safe” to ask for care/relationship. And I’m making progress in truly believing that when my requests are denied it says more about the person who is unwilling/unable to give than my worthiness to receive.

I’m currently working towards the “ultimate request for care”. I have withheld almost all of the information about what I have experienced with dBPDxh from my parents because I didn’t want to ask them to pick sides. Since I started dating dBPDxh when I was 14 and he was 15, he’s nearly as much their child as I am. Living 2000 miles away from them and my silence has made it easy for them to continue to believe the best about dBPDxh. They know about my affair and that I left dBPDxh, and I believe that they hold the (unhealthy) expectation that I take responsibility for any shortcomings in my marriage, because that’s what I’ve always done. My therapist (and my friends) are encouraging me to do some “truth telling” and give my parents the opportunity to come alongside and support me rather than see me as the persecutor and dBPDxh as the victim.

That scares the sh** out of me, because I don’t know if they are capable of giving me the care and understanding I would want. I’ve spent most of my life avoiding the question “Will you accept me as I am and love me even when I disappoint you and ask you to care about and for me?” because I’m afraid the answer will be “No”. I have to keep reminding myself that “No” would say more about them than me. I have to be reminded that my heart would break if my children didn’t give me the opportunity to say “YES!” to those same questions.

Sorry to have sidetracked the conversation.

Back to you - I think you are incredibly courageous in so many ways. Each step on the journey to emerge from the numbness when you know that means pain as well as joy is an act of courage. It’s my hope that you will exercise some of that courage by reaching out to those you encounter in “real life” with offers of a friendship that will include gifting them with the opportunity to give as well as receive care. As WickerMan said, it can be harder to find as we age (especially when in a foreign culture), but life is full of beautiful discoveries to be made and I believe those friendships will come to you as you become open to them.

BG

[pearlsw]

You know it is interesting. This has reminded me of one of the last conversations I had with my friend/lover. He was offering me help and I repeatedly refused it. He would not take no for an answer. He said “I will help you. If you need money just let me know.” I kept saying no, and then later, grasping for a reason, said that I could not because he was never officially my boyfriend. Then we went through this ritual (knowing this might be our last conversation) where he asked me to be his girlfriend so that if I ever needed help I would feel I could reach out to him. It was so touching and sweet to get to have that moment. But I knew deep down I would never take his help, that all was on me in life. It was a big mistake to not take his help! (And to try to get it later when things became really desperate and unbearable, but not reaching him.)

Later I saw how in over my head I was and I tried to reach him for help, but my SO was hot on my heels, saw I was trying to get help and cut me off at the pass. Had he let me get the help I would have been gone years ago, but he blocked my exits... .

I may have already told the story about how my friend/lover was protective of me. He sent me out one time to pick up food for us, he was injured/in a lot of pain and could not so he gave me money and sent me out. I wanted everything to be perfect so I took a little too long finding a place to buy food, and had to do it in a foreign language. I was about 15 minutes later than I should have been, that’s all, but by the time I was back he was up, fully dressed and on the way out to look for me. I was so surprised when I saw him, the concern and then relief on his face and how he held me so close after this were so beautiful.

He was pretty great. He really looked out for me at times.

Today was strange. Lots of stories started crossing in my head. The first moment I realized more might happen between my friend/lover and I was a time we saw each other while still just friends and he…He is a big, tall guy and he just got down on his knees in front of me and just swallowed me up in a long, warm embrace. He was so desperate for affection and closeness…and it broke me to see him this way, on his knees like this.

Today my SO came to me, woke me from a deep sleep and he too was on his knees. He was praying and begging for my forgiveness. He’s been drinking daily so he’s pretty emotional and his kids are about to come and he’s set to go on his vacation with them and me on my separate one - we'll be apart most of the month, perhaps our last couple months. Suddenly he wants to “make all my dreams come true. Do all he can to make me happy. Is begging God for his and my forgiveness” of him for all the terrible things he said and did over the years, etc. It was pretty heavy, but it did not move me like it might have years ago. I just wanted him to stop. I started making jokes to lighten the mood. But him too on his knees.

Reminded me of the times I was on my knees over the last years in front of him. The time I had to call the police on him and they sent a male and female police officer and in front of all three of them I got down on a knee and said “I love you. Please calm down and stop this behavior” or something to that effect. And the other time I was on my knees begging for the lives of my friend/lover’s kids so that no harm would come to them. That one still wrecks me. And the times to calm him that I’d strip my clothes off to get him to see my humanity and implore him to just f*cking stop with his meltdowns. And there were even more…

And I was looking at all three of us and thinking my goodness, how did it come to this for each one of us? All of us, beneath ourselves, giving up our dignity, begging for our lives from each other on our knees like this. My goodness!

[BeagleGirl]

Today my SO came to me, woke me from a deep sleep and he too was on his knees. He was praying and begging for my forgiveness. He’s been drinking daily so he’s pretty emotional and his kids are about to come and he’s set to go on his vacation with them and me on my separate one - we'll be apart most of the month, perhaps our last couple months. Suddenly he wants to “make all my dreams come true. Do all he can to make me happy. Is begging God for his and my forgiveness” of him for all the terrible things he said and did over the years, etc. It was pretty heavy, but it did not move me like it might have years ago. I just wanted him to stop.

Pearl,
Do you have any thoughts about why this display did not move you "like it might have years ago"?  Do you think your eyes are more open, or your heart more closed, or both?

BG

[BeagleGirl]

It has been a couple months since I thought of my affair partner on a daily basis.  I still think of him frequently, but I have plenty of practice limiting my thoughts of him. 

Today I talked about him a bit in therapy.  In some ways he is becoming less of a distinct person in my mind and more of a symbol.  He isn't what I want, he just represents what I want.  In some ways that makes me sad, because there is a part of me that wants to honor what he did for me.  I remember the first time I panicked about our relationship.  We had been open about our feelings for each other and had been having an affair for about 3 weeks (it is still amazing to me how much we crammed into a 6 week affair, but we had probably loved each other for 6 months before that confession of our feelings that I consider the beginning of our affair) and we were meeting at a coffee shop.  I remember seeing his eyes, his face, his whole body light up when he saw me.  It's when I realized that he would be willing to leave his wife and children for me.  I felt "seen" in a way that I never had before.  And I felt valued in a way I had never been before.  There is a parable in the Bible of a man who saw a "pearl of great price" and he went and sold all he had to purchase that pearl.  What I saw in my affair partner's eyes that day was that I was his "pearl of great price". 

I couldn't allow my affair partner to "sell all he had" for me.  I couldn't trade my happiness for that of so many others (our kids, our spouses, etc).  I also worried that he would some day realize that I was not worth that price and come to despise me.  Even though I regret our relationship more than anything else, I feel like he gave me the gift of seeing what it was like to be valued.  His parting words to me were "I want you to be loved the way that you should be loved.  I can't be the man to do that, but I want you to find someone who will."  In the years of recovering from my affair and attempting to rebuild my marriage, I would often think of what he said and ask myself if he would think that dBPDxh had changed enough to love me the way he thought I should be loved.  He planted a seed in my mind that grew to the belief that I should be loved and treasured and that it was not right for me to accept less.  That was the beginning of me demanding more from dBPDxh.
 I really did believe (and do believe) that dBPDxh was capable of loving me that way and that I was worthy of that love.  I know it would have taken a monumental shift in dBPDxh's thoughts and behaviors to do so, but I have seen him go to amazing lengths to get things he wants.  If he was willing to put forth even a portion of that effort into learning to love me... .  But he wasn't and didn't and here I am, and I'm now in a place where I could possibly find a man who would "love me the way I should be loved". 

I believe that I now see myself the way that my affair partner saw me then.  It was wrong for him to love me, but I, at the risk of sounding arrogant, understand why he did.  I feel like I need to welcome the "haunting" of that memory as I start evaluating future relationships.  Am I being loved the way I should be loved?  Does he value me as a "pearl of great price".  A loving relationship requires some sacrifice of convenience and self interest.  Is he willing to discard the less valuable things in life in order to have a relationship with me?

I think that seeing what he represents has helped me to let go of my feelings for him.  I do grieve the loss of him specifically.  I wish that I could still have the friendship with him that we had before we allowed romantic feelings to take over.  But much of the longing I felt that I associated with grieving him was more for the kind of love that he showed me existed, and the value he placed on me.  It may sound corny, but as I am able to give myself that kind of value and love, I feel like I am able to wait and accept no less from a potential partner. 

Now if only I can hold on to the knowledge that I am a "pearl of great price". 

And I have thought of you, dear Pearl, every time I typed that phrase.  You too are a "Pearl of great price". 

BG

[pearlsw]

Pearl,
Do you have any thoughts about why this display did not move you "like it might have years ago"?  Do you think your eyes are more open, or your heart more closed, or both?

BG

Hey BG,

Thanks for asking!

I think, in all honesty, because he has treated me worse than everyone else in my entire life combined in terms of hate and cruelty. Not saying I had never heard an unkind work or had never been cussed at, but I had never been verbally or emotionally abused before in my life. (Which is good because I didn't really take this stuff to heart because it sounded like hot air and b.s. to me the entire time. I have good self-esteem thank goodness.) There are single weeks where he has been worse to me than a lifetime worth of anyone else. So, it's not so easy to respect or trust his words. He overdoes the good ones and the bad ones.

I think too, what he did with my family in January was a step too far. That is when I finally got very angry. I had felt some anger at times, but it would burn off quickly, but for some reason that really was far over the line for me. Well, of course it was, he did a lifetime of damage to some relationships that I can never undo.

And watching him through his depression, and suicide threats this spring and starting his medication, having to give so much to get through all of that with him. I saw nothing was off limits for him in terms of what he would say or do to hurt me. That was pretty scary.

It is just hard to live with his on/off cycles. He called it all "off" so many times and I don't live like he does, in terms of emotions I mean. He doesn't give me any time for my feelings to come back on. He just goes off/on, off/on, off/on so fast - on his cycles... .and I don't. He turned me off. A lot. He also acts like a helpless child which is very unappealing as well. I can't count on him to be stable and he erased the word "future" from my life.

About my family. He was pressuring me and insulting me and dragging me to the lawyer at the time right after my grandfather died, but before I had to fly back to my home country for the funeral. An extremely difficult time he made infinitely worse. He was blowing up my family's phones and making drama - I am not even sure I know all that he actually said or did at this time, but I don't bother to try to find out because I... .because I am afraid to do anything to draw attention to anyone in my life. That if he spots a weakness he'll exploit it. Him insulting my family and me in this way really is not okay with me. And I loved him and offered him so much... .I was reading some of my old messages here from last summer... .and I bet it would be the same for last fall and even late last year about how much I loved him and wanted things to work out... .

He just kept pounding and pounding on me (so to speak) until there was just dust left.

Thanks so much for asking!

with gratitude, pearl.

[pearlsw]

It has been a couple months since I thought of my affair partner on a daily basis.  I still think of him frequently, but I have plenty of practice limiting my thoughts of him. 

Today I talked about him a bit in therapy.  In some ways he is becoming less of a distinct person in my mind and more of a symbol.  He isn't what I want, he just represents what I want.  In some ways that makes me sad, because there is a part of me that wants to honor what he did for me.  I remember the first time I panicked about our relationship.  We had been open about our feelings for each other and had been having an affair for about 3 weeks (it is still amazing to me how much we crammed into a 6 week affair, but we had probably loved each other for 6 months before that confession of our feelings that I consider the beginning of our affair) and we were meeting at a coffee shop.  I remember seeing his eyes, his face, his whole body light up when he saw me.  It's when I realized that he would be willing to leave his wife and children for me.  I felt "seen" in a way that I never had before.  And I felt valued in a way I had never been before.  There is a parable in the Bible of a man who saw a "pearl of great price" and he went and sold all he had to purchase that pearl.  What I saw in my affair partner's eyes that day was that I was his "pearl of great price". 

I couldn't allow my affair partner to "sell all he had" for me.  I couldn't trade my happiness for that of so many others (our kids, our spouses, etc).  I also worried that he would some day realize that I was not worth that price and come to despise me.  Even though I regret our relationship more than anything else, I feel like he gave me the gift of seeing what it was like to be valued.  His parting words to me were "I want you to be loved the way that you should be loved.  I can't be the man to do that, but I want you to find someone who will."  In the years of recovering from my affair and attempting to rebuild my marriage, I would often think of what he said and ask myself if he would think that dBPDxh had changed enough to love me the way he thought I should be loved.  He planted a seed in my mind that grew to the belief that I should be loved and treasured and that it was not right for me to accept less.  That was the beginning of me demanding more from dBPDxh.
 I really did believe (and do believe) that dBPDxh was capable of loving me that way and that I was worthy of that love.  I know it would have taken a monumental shift in dBPDxh's thoughts and behaviors to do so, but I have seen him go to amazing lengths to get things he wants.  If he was willing to put forth even a portion of that effort into learning to love me... .  But he wasn't and didn't and here I am, and I'm now in a place where I could possibly find a man who would "love me the way I should be loved". 

I believe that I now see myself the way that my affair partner saw me then.  It was wrong for him to love me, but I, at the risk of sounding arrogant, understand why he did.  I feel like I need to welcome the "haunting" of that memory as I start evaluating future relationships.  Am I being loved the way I should be loved?  Does he value me as a "pearl of great price".  A loving relationship requires some sacrifice of convenience and self interest.  Is he willing to discard the less valuable things in life in order to have a relationship with me?

I think that seeing what he represents has helped me to let go of my feelings for him.  I do grieve the loss of him specifically.  I wish that I could still have the friendship with him that we had before we allowed romantic feelings to take over.  But much of the longing I felt that I associated with grieving him was more for the kind of love that he showed me existed, and the value he placed on me.  It may sound corny, but as I am able to give myself that kind of value and love, I feel like I am able to wait and accept no less from a potential partner. 

Now if only I can hold on to the knowledge that I am a "pearl of great price". 

And I have thought of you, dear Pearl, every time I typed that phrase.  You too are a "Pearl of great price". 

BG

I didn't really get a chance to think of him. It would come up here and there, but due to the extreme nature of things I had to be very guarded in what I said about it. It really does feel like parts of my brain shut off completely. I have so trained myself to not access the memories. While driving yesterday a few popped up, but... .It is not longer this place... .I mean in some ways he was just in my imagination, a daydream. He lived larger than life there... .he was symbolic for me too, rather than even human sometimes, just symbolic. I can't remember his voice very well, or his face. I remember his shoes or his thighs more than anything!

I remember a time he tried to make me laugh that was really, really sweet... .a funny impersonation/motion he did. I remember him handing me food, cooking for me, just those things. It's funny. It was nice to feel cared for.

Oh, and I had the same thing in a way, he tried to translate a phrase over from his native language about how I should "find someone to help carry my load in life." He knew he could not be that person for me, but he strongly urged me to be happy in life and to find someone who would care for me and respect him. He was very upset and strong in telling me a few times that he felt I was not being respected. I remember being surprised at how attracted to me that he was, but it was nice. All the small pieces I had of him were nice.

I wish I could go back to that moment in time before I met my SO, before my friend and I were back in touch again, and just have those old, unsullied memories of him from our late twenties. If I could just find a way to restore those... .hahaahha. I am suddenly thinking of that story from Spain this week of another failed restoration of an artwork at a church... .how someone totally botched and ruined these old, beautiful faded artworks... .

I feel like I have a gross layer of paint over the top of my memories and I'm not sure I can get them restored again, that maybe they are entirely ruined. I hate that my SO tried to crawl into my head and destroy things... .and that I had to turn off the lights in there so he could not see... .so I could bury and protect things.

He would quote to my from my love letters, twist things up, bash me with them. I felt so violated and disgusted. I have no problem with him knowing, but no one should get to that level of privacy... .and he keeps it all, all those words for my friend as a weapon he can hold over me for the rest of my life so it seems.

There are so many pieces of how he abused me over all this. I get him being upset, and I get him needing to talk, but the way he turned it into abuse... .the way he would not even let me sit in peace with a smile (about anything) on my face somedays... .the way he would falsely accuse me of all kinds of things... .the way he took the sexual assault and beat me with even that... .the stuff he said about monitoring me with cameras... .and all my computer usage... .instead of just letting me go and get away... .to the point I felt like a caged animal at times... .and still feel sickened and fearful at times... .

The hard part was figuring out how much of all this to take as the price for what I did. I felt I had to take some lumps, but... .I have reached a limit. This is not the way to process this stuff, the way he handled his side of it... .

That is what makes this so hard... .that it never should have happened, and I think would not have if he hadn't already broken me into pieces... .I wanted to tell him right away, I just never felt emotionally safe with him... .Neither of us understood each other very well... .and it just became this totally out of control force.

He makes me laugh at times, I can't believe how much we still laugh, but... .he is not... .someone I feel truly safe and peace with... .It would take a lot to build a life with him, and I just don't know if it is worth it... .Do I resign myself to this? Is there redemption for me in making this work? Do I avoid "failure" by powering through, finding the way and making an okay life with him? Is being with a him a guarantee I'll never be that happy? Could our life together be enough? Would I ever feel any sense of security? I'm still figuring it out... .

[pearlsw]

To my friend/lover,

Today I heard that song on the radio again... .and I could remember the way you turned and looked at me, your tender, caring look. I never felt more beautiful than when we got to the top of the mountain and pulled off at that restaurant, although we did not get to stay, just being by your side was unreal. The way you backed the car into the spot, and how we looked as we got out. I never felt so beautiful before that day being by your side.

Thank you for those moments of safety and protection. How you would take care of everything and how you could see my emotions better than anyone. You never let me hide or pretend I was okay when I was not.

You would give me those tough talks on taking care of myself and getting happiness out of life. I could feel myself losing you every minute I was with you.

To my SO,

I heard a song that reminded me of you too today. A song I used to listen to while sitting in my office, you on the other side of the world, and me not understanding why you kept pushing me away. I would miss you so much and was so desperate to hear from you and have you love me again after you would disappear and take your love away.

It felt like the timing was off, it still does. It was not the right time for us. I don't know how to make it better. But I am sure we were once so in love.

To me,

Don't be sad. Don't be sad. You have been lucky in all the unluckiness. Many people never experience the passion or love you have despite all the losses. Never stop giving love, never stop having hope.

You can be free from the pain by working with your thoughts. Let all of them go. Let all of them go. Do not be attached or grasp. The peace and freedom you desire is already inside you, just return to it.

To my friend/lover,

Thanks for always, always telling me I am not alone. Thanks for what you did to help with supporting my health. I will always be grateful for this. Though I never asked, I used to wish you'd come and pick me and my bags up and take me to the airport so I could leave. I used to watch out the window wishing for you to come and help though I knew you would never come. I had never asked.

To my SO,

Thank you for taking the medicine and being calmer. Thank you for the times when you are peaceful and give me the impression you'd let me go peacefully someday. It is sad that you don't know how to love me, and I don't know how to love you properly. It is a tragedy for us both.

To me,

Don't give up.

[Wicker Man]

You can be free from the pain by working with your thoughts... ... ..The peace and freedom you desire is already inside you, just return to it.

PearlSW These words are as thoughtful and insightful as they are eloquent and correct.  This is a perfect summation, in my opinion, of the path toward emotional enlightenment --an end to suffering.  This is a truth I grasp as well, but cannot seem to achieve.  Over and over I have referred to my affair as having been a loss of innocence -it is the innocence of inner peace which has been lost to me. 

As BeagleGirl wrote "pearl of great price" this was precisely how I saw my affair partner and I did indeed "sell all I had".  I sold all I had for a forgery, my 'pearl of great price' was in reality but brittle glass.  --However emotionally I yearn for what the pearl represented.  My Dream Come True represented the idea --the fantasy of true love.  Affairs do not survive the light of day precisely because they are, in most cases, a fantasy based on projection.

Therein lies the crux of the issue, the fallout of an affair --innocence lost.  I do not miss ':)ream Come True' I miss the dream of her.  I am now attempting to emotionally reconcile my dream of her and what it represented --not the reality of her.  In reality to her, I was likely a temporary end to her suffering and for me she would have likely been a path to suffering I can only barely begin to imagine.  However I am left with comparing my life to a wonderfully elaborate, warm and loving fantasy --I now have to reconcile real life as compared to an impossible dream.  This is a fools errand I do not seem able to escape.

During my affair I held a mirror up to my life and I despised what I saw --it was a sad and depressing vision.  In this reflection I saw a life which had fallen into a comfortable and deadly alcohol infused slumber.  While my wife and I were in this slumber we were sleepily unaware how much pain we were causing. It was not until I had destroyed our lives we began to see its value.  It was not until I shattered my wife's trust and laid waste to her dreams she was able to consider how her disorder had effected us. 

As we sift through the ashes of our marriage my wife is now beginning to realize why people at her office think she hates them, why she is never content --why I left.  She feels my betrayal is unforgivable, and I agree, however she is beginning to understand the fertile ground for betrayal we both so carefully prepared over the last two decades.

PearlSW my point is this.  As human beings, in some twist of irony, we are not able to understand the value of something until we have lost it.  You pose some wonderfully painful questions ":)o I resign myself to this?"  and I would counter with "Have I?"  My wife and I are committed to rebuilding our relationship, and yet I am haunted by this question --have I sold out?  Have I flown to safety, and at what cost?  Have I resigned and consigned myself to a compromise?  If you were to attempt to rebuild your relationship there will, in my opinion, be the specter of this doubt -there is for me.  I do not have any advice as to how to counter this doubt, all I can offer is the warning of its possible existence.

Is there redemption for me in making this work?

Once again a marvelously difficult question.  Here I would ask you to remember how this post began -- "... .The peace and freedom you desire is already inside you"  There is no redemption to be found within a relationship, redemption cannot be granted by another --Redemption and salvation come from within.

Do I avoid "failure" by powering through, finding the way and making an okay life with him?

In my myopic view of your marriage you already have 'failure'.  If you were to attempt reconciliation I believe the beginning of that path would be to admit abject failure and seek a new relationship with him.  In my opinion after an affair there is no going back to the way things were in your marriage -for you and I this is a good thing.  Reconciling after an affair necessitates a rebirth.  Whether you wish to attempt this and if your husband is able to accomplish this remarkable feat only you can know.  I can only add it is incredibly difficult and painful to walk this road. It is a path pocked with setbacks, pain, and doubt.  It is the path I have chosen and with all of my heart I hope it is the right one for my wife and me.

Could our life together be enough?

In my loss of innocence I am now flirting with depression over this very question.  I sincerely hope with time I can learn to be happy and content in my marriage, without falling back into that seductive slumber of apathy.  Having seen the blinding brilliance of unsustainable love, a deadly love verging on psychosis which Dream Come True offered, I find myself reeling and grasping for peace.  I have no answer to this terrifying question you have posed, only the full understanding of its weight.  A full understanding of how haunting this insidious doubt feels as this very question echos daily through my mind.

I'm still figuring it out... .

You do not walk alone and I would humbly suggest 'We are still figuring this out'.  I have no guidance to offer, but I can assure you the questions you are asking yourself are the right ones. 


Wicker Man

[BeagleGirl]

Pearl,
I think WickerMan's responses are right on, but I'll rephrase/expand a few things.

Redemption - I agree that redemption is not something that someone else can grant you.  I also don't believe there is one single outcome that guarantees redemption.  One of the definitions of redeem is "to recover by payment or other satisfaction".  I think you have two paths to redemption displayed before you in WickerMan and myself.  WickerMan's path still includes rebuilding his marriage.  He is working towards recovering both himself and (with the partnership of his wife) his marriage.  He has alluded to some of the "payments" he has made in attending therapy appointments, and working through the emotional impact his affair had on himself and his wife.  I believe that he will be successful in redeeming his marriage only through recovering himself, but I also believe that recovering himself does not ensure that his marriage will be recovered. 

My path no longer includes a marriage to my dBPDxh.  While I did work to repair my marriage (being true to myself in doing so), I feel that I'm still living out my redemption even through and after my divorce.  I feel that I was not able to redeem my marriage because that is something that can only be accomplished with full partnership from the other participant in the marriage.  That does NOT mean that redemption is out of reach.  I can still be recovered.  I can be restored to my true self.  It has taken lots of work (payment), on my part.  I see you doing a lot of that work here. 

Failure - I agree with WickerMan here as well.  We have all three "failed" in our marriage.  Even before my affair, my marriage was a failure.  I picture my marriage as a boat full of holes.  dBPDxh put little effort into patching holes or bailing water.  I stopped patching and bailing for a year and eventually let my marriage sink while I sat on a raft with my affair partner (who was letting his own marriage sink).  I then got back in my marriage boat and started bailing and patching like mad, but it was still fundamentally a boat full of holes.  It took me 2 years to see that clearly.  I realized that I would not want my sons to think a boat full of holes was acceptable and started demanding a new boat.  I stood on an island and asked dBPDxh to let our boat sink and join me on the island to build that new boat.  I demanded that he bring his share of the tools and do his share of the work.  He sat in the holey boat asking me to come back, promising to do his share of patching, but he never picked up the tools.  I refused to get back in and he eventually found someone else to join him in his boat and start bailing for him.

If you do as WickerMan suggests and say that the marriage has already failed, what does that feel like? 

If you were to make a list of the things that you would need to do to make your marriage into something that would truly be "enough", what would be on that list?  Are you willing to do those things?  Now make a similar list for your husband.  Does he know what is on that list?  Is he making an effort (Not promising.  Actually doing) to address those things?  Then you're building a new boat.  If not, the best you can hope for is to bail fast enough to stay afloat. 

Okay.  I think I've taken that boat metaphor about as far as it can go. 

BG

[Wicker Man]

I believe that he [Wicker Man] will be successful in redeeming his marriage only through recovering himself, but I also believe that recovering himself does not ensure that his marriage will be recovered. 

BeagleGirl your thoughts are very astute.  We have to, first and foremost, work on ourselves.  This is the 'I' in 'I love you' --without 'I' the entire statement is meaningless.  Without my own recovery the recovery of my marriage would be temporary resulting, ultimately, in painful disaster.

I am glad to read Pearlsw is willing to asking the tough questions.  It is tremendously difficult to even discover these questions and even more so to find answers.

... .Then you're building a new boat.  If not, the best you can hope for is to bail fast enough to stay afloat. 

Without a rebirth in marriage post affair, (at the risk of expanding on our nautical theme) the christening of a 'new boat'... .  there is no chance of staying afloat no matter how hard one or both partners bail water --it would be, instead, a matter of sinking more slowly.

In my marriage we had decades of inertia, bad habits, and a personality disorder to overcome.  As I see it fear, and laziness are our greatest enemies --being drawn back to the 'old boat'  Both my wife and I are willing to introspect and have begun to change our old habits --this is not an easy thing.  However, fortunately both of us see we will be, through these changes, happier as individuals and thusly (or perhaps... .theoretically) as a married couple.

Without commitment from both of us there would have been no path forward.  Neither of us, without the full commitment from the other, could have had any hope of a positive outcome.

The first question must be -do I want my marriage to continue?  If so then the next question seems to be is my partner willing to accept the monumental task of introspection and improvement.  Even then there is no guarantee of success -but there is a chance.

Wicker Man

[pearlsw]

The first question must be -do I want my marriage to continue?  If so then the next question seems to be is my partner willing to accept the monumental task of introspection and improvement.  Even then there is no guarantee of success -but there is a chance.

Wicker Man

Hey, hey!

The replies on this thread are always so insightful and truly touching!

I must say, Wickerman, I admire the strength and integrity you show in rebuilding your marriage. I read your words and they give me a lot to think about if I choose to go in that direction. It would not be the same for me, you've set the bar pretty high here, but I like the modeling you demonstrate. This is how it is done.

Right now my SO and I are away from each other. I am not feeling well, and feeling disconnected a bit. I got some notes from him today, he does not write me or talk to me so much, but I was touched by him expressing a few of the struggles he is having on his visit with the kids. It was very little, what he wrote, but it gave me a chance to see him in a more human way. I could see how much he actually gives to others and how he gets so little in return. He is in his late 50's and his S13 wants him to be more energized and play more and he just can't with his back pain. If I was there I'd be happy to swim with the child on his behalf and do my best to make the two of them laugh.

He was never so good at balancing all of us together and so if we stay together I can see us having more time apart. It is not ideal, but perhaps it could serve as a way to build up more appreciation for each other - we could make the best of it. I know if he was here he would try his best to help with the current health problems I am having. Of course, he'd likely make a mess of it and I'd end up having to put so much energy into his feelings I'd end up not wanting his help at all, but... .It is hard. I feel like if we were together I'd be doing so much of the leading and teaching about basic relationship stuff as he has no good experiences really prior to me... .and now our experience has become damaged.

I really struggle with how much I owe him in terms of repair and putting things back together after all we have shared. I just wish I hadn't gotten so numb inside... .I don't know how to repair that. And I think that must be my first priority... .if he could give me the space to do it. I do think he is starting to appreciate me a bit more... .maybe we could get along, but we are also at a classic point in relationships were interest wanes and has to be revived.

I just wish I could rely on him emotionally. Feel safe and comforted and understood by him, if we were to be a good couple again.

thank you so very much, pearl.

[pearlsw]

Being away on a trip reminds me a bit of my old friend/lover. I am surprised the urge to speak to him came up a few times recently, but I resisted any effort to track him down. I let the thoughts come and go. I like being in a place of no contact and I am getting closer and closer to accepting that it will be a "for life" thing. I try to notice what inspires the wishes and I think it comes from a place of wishing to be cared for... .to have someone see my pain and hold a hand out to me and help me stand up again. 

It was also nice to just be around an intelligent, capable, fearless fella who doesn't let anything get him down... .not too far at least.

My health is not so good on my trip so far, and it reminds me of how my health took a sudden bad turn on the trip I met my friend on, and how his took a few bad turns as well, all in just the very short time we had. I tried to hide my illness from him, I was afraid he might leave if he knew how ill I was. Today, what I have now, my giant swollen, red, icky eye I could not hide and I bet he would try to make me laugh and would just take care of it. Just let me be weak for a few hours and take care of it, no questions asked.

But he is long gone now... .and lost to time. I just have a few memories left in my head to call on for the strength they give me. It does make me realize all in all though how little I have in life... .that I hold onto such crumbs.

Oh, how nice it would be to have a whole cake of a relationship and not just the crumbs. But I think, as always, it's just me that is gonna bake the cake... .and I will be alone. I thought I wanted this until I remembered I can't put eye drops in myself! hahahahaah. But, surely there is a place somewhere you can pay someone to put medicine in your eyes if you don't have a special someone to do it for ya!

~pearl.

p.s. i'll get to more of the treasures in all the nice/helpful replies here... .i'm a bit ill and down to one good eye for now!

[Wicker Man]

[Wickerman] I read your words and they give me a lot to think about if I choose to go in that direction. It would not be the same for me, you've set the bar pretty high here, but I like the modeling you demonstrate. This is how it is done.

Ugh... .  I certainly see myself as a 'coping' model -not the 'super man' model.  Rebuilding has been tough.  I have done hours upon hours of reading and I am trying my human best to find a way to rebuild our relationship into something healthy and happy.  My wife was completely happy in our 'old' marriage.  She was poleaxed to learn I was unhappy enough to leave it. 

Fear and inertia are the enemy -it would be all to easy to fall back into old destructive patterns.  I am afraid of fear being the motivation for both of us rebuilding out marriage.  We are committed to staying together -which is good, but now we need to make sure we make our relationship into something which will bring us joy not just security and fear avoidance. 

It is incredibly hard work overcoming 20 years of bad habits.  I am cautiously optimistic.  My wife seems to be willing to continue working on her personality disorder, which is all I ask.  For me her effort is enough.  As I had mentioned I am currently working on why I had an affair and the emotional fallout it has caused me. 

... .what he wrote, but it gave me a chance to see him in a more human way. I could see how much he actually gives to others and how he gets so little in return.

It is interesting he is only writing sporadically.  Dream Come True wanted constant contact when we were apart -and generally it took about 3 days for the wheels to completely fly off and the communication became a rage infused horror show. I am glad your husband is sending you notes which are thoughtful and not a constant barrage.

He is in his late 50's and his S13 wants him to be more energized and play more and he just can't with his back pain.

There is nothing fun about back injuries.  I have been hard on my body throughout my life and certainly know that music.  Perhaps yoga would be good for his back and it might help him find an inner peace which seems to be lacking.

He was never so good at balancing all of us together and so if we stay together I can see us having more time apart. It is not ideal, but perhaps it could serve as a way to build up more appreciation for each other.

This is something my wife and I are trying to work on.  Having separate interests as well as the things we share together.  Trying to find mutual friends as well as friends of our own.  This becomes more difficult with age --But I believe it is important.  Having some level of separation helps to bring vitality to a marriage -something to talk about with our spouses.  In my experience when two people live in isolation one of them goes a bit crazy and takes the other one with them

When my work was incredibly busy I strongly suggested my wife do some sort of work instead of just staying home.  She did and has found a career which brings her a lot of joy.

I feel like if we were together I'd be doing so much of the leading and teaching about basic relationship stuff as he has no good experiences really prior to me... .and now our experience has become damaged.

This is precisely the inertia my wife and I are attempting to overcome.  Over the 20 years we were together we had devolved into slightly dysfunctional roommates.  Now we are trying to learn to act like married people.  This has been quite problematic -compound this with my betrayal and the result it a mess.  What is more I have the comparison of having experienced the beginning of a BPD relationship --Today I realized in the year I spent with ':)ream Come True' I spoke with her more than I had with my wife in any 5 years we were together.  OCPD is a cold disorder where as BPD is searing.  The juxtaposition has left my head spinning and my heart wounded.

I really struggle with how much I owe him in terms of repair and putting things back together after all we have shared. I just wish I hadn't gotten so numb inside... .I don't know how to repair that. And I think that must be my first priority... .if he could give me the space to do it.

Could you literally tell him what you wrote above?  What do you have to lose?  Your statement is truthful -not hurtful and is what you need.

I do think he is starting to appreciate me a bit more... .maybe we could get along, but we are also at a classic point in relationships were interest wanes and has to be revived... ... ..I just wish I could rely on him emotionally. Feel safe and comforted and understood by him, if we were to be a good couple again.

First trust has to come -and rebuilding trust is very difficult.  My wife has to trust I won't betray her again and I have to trust she will keep working on her PD.  I know I won't allow another affair -Hell... .It is going to take me years to recover from my time with ':)ream Come True'.

How does one rebuild when the old foundation is cracked and reduced to powder?  I have been reading Esther Perel's 'Mating in Captivity' (again).  The book speaks about how to bring intimacy back into a relationship.  My wife and I both suffer from trust issues when it comes to intimacy -her because of my affair and me from 20 years of rejection.  I will reiterate... .  We have made a fine mess of the last two decades -but I feel hopeful.


Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

Being away on a trip reminds me a bit of my old friend/lover. I am surprised the urge to speak to him came up a few times recently, but I resisted any effort to track him down.

It has only been 7 months of no contact for me, but I am ever haunted.  Just today a mutual friend reached out to me and let me know ':)ream Come True' is still waiting for my return --still wearing my mother's engagement ring.  The pain is palpable -it brought tears to my eyes.  Sweet destruction is but a single text message away.

It was interesting, however, the friend admitted ':)ream Come True' is trying to change, but would not have if I had remained.  In other words even this young friend understood how perilous our relationship had become for me.

Sadly, therapy is out of the question for her -and from what I believe about BPD this means any sort of meaningful recovery for her is also out of the question.  --What I would not give to believe she has any hope of a healthy and happy life.  My affair partner is doomed to a life which will likely end in all of the pain and torment in which it began.  I share this to remind you, even with your loss, your memories of your affair partner could be far less sweet.  Enjoy the memory -and if you can leave it as just that --a memory.

I let the thoughts come and go. I like being in a place of no contact and I am getting closer and closer to accepting that it will be a "for life" thing.

There is no temptation for me to initiate contact.  Immense sadness, confusion, and pain, but no temptation.

... .to have someone see my pain and hold a hand out to me and help me stand up again. 

I am confident you will be standing again.  You are a brave and capable woman.  You have been willing to ask the hard questions and this sets you on the right path.

But he is long gone now... .and lost to time. I just have a few memories left in my head to call on for the strength they give me. It does make me realize all in all though how little I have in life... .that I hold onto such crumbs.

As hard as things seem right now they will get better.  The most difficult part of an affair for me is the enormous weight it has put on my psyche and world view.  I now have this unsustainable benchmark -I find myself comparing 'real life' with a fantastical construct.  I am starting to believe I don't miss ':)ream Come True' but instead the dream of her.  The reality was actually quite brutal -but I had projected my honesty and kindness on to her.  I know your affair partner was not the same animal as she was, but still affairs thrive on fantasy and projection. 

Oh, how nice it would be to have a whole cake of a relationship and not just the crumbs.

Baking is hard work.

i'll get to more of the treasures in all the nice/helpful replies

I am sure I speak for everyone here... .  Get healthy, enjoy your vacation.  We will be here for you when you are ready.


Wicker Man

[BeagleGirl]

I feel like if we were together I'd be doing so much of the leading and teaching about basic relationship stuff as he has no good experiences really prior to me... .and now our experience has become damaged.

I really struggle with how much I owe him in terms of repair and putting things back together after all we have shared.

Pearl,
First of all, I'm sorry to hear that you're dealing with health issues on your trip.  I really hope you can find someone to help put those drops in your eye and that you heal quickly. 

The section of your post that I quoted above reminds me a LOT of my thought process in the aftermath of my affair.  I'm not sure if you are actually experiencing the same thought processes, but that quote really took me back.  I spent about 2 years doing everything I could to repair my marriage.  I don't regret the time I spent doing so, but in retrospect I can see when it shifted from a labor of love and repentance to a burden of debt that I could never repay.  I think that point was where I began to realize that I was carrying not only my responsibility for the marriage, but also dBPDxh's.  I was doing my best to find all the books and resources and spoon feed him the things he needed to know to be a better husband.  Our MC kept encouraging me to step back and allow dBPDxh to do some of the work.  He was AMAZING at researching things that mattered to him.  He would spend hours digging and processing knowledge and acting upon it WHEN IT MATTERED TO HIM.  I (and our MC) believe that he chose not to put forth the effort because he valued his comfort and the status quo of our relationship (where I did all the heavy lifting) more than he valued me.  When he accepted that I really was refusing to go back to that model (which my guilt over my affair could easily drive me to) he found someone else. 

I'm not saying that is what is going on with you and your SO, but my experience makes me want to ask you:

Is your SO capable of finding resources to help him do his part in rebuilding trust and repairing the damage done WITHOUT YOUR ASSISTANCE?

Are you capable of stepping back and allowing him to seek and stumble and get back up and walk again on his journey towards a more healthy marriage?

Are you capable of accepting that he may choose not to try?

If he chooses not to try, are you willing to carry on the way you have in hopes that he may take a few steps on his own, occassionally?

I have a friend whose husband I think is uN/BPD.  He regularly pushes their marriage to the brink then backs off and pledges to go to counseling with her.  About two years ago she stopped scheduling counseling appointments for them.  She knows that he is perfectly capable of scheduling an appointment with the MC they have seen in the past or finding a new one.  In the two years since she stopped scheduling the appointments he has pushed the marriage to the brink probably a dozen times and every time he promises to make that appointment... .He never has.  She has answered "yes" to all the questions I asked above.  There are days when she feels less willing to continue in this type of marriage arrangement, but for now she accepts things as they are, with her eyes open.  She has let go of hope to an extent that allows her to stay off the roller coaster most of the time. 

I'm wishing you healing on this trip, mind, body, and spirit.

BG

[BeagleGirl]

I try to notice what inspires the wishes and I think it comes from a place of wishing to be cared for... .to have someone see my pain and hold a hand out to me and help me stand up again. 

Pearl,
This quote resonates with me tonight.  I have stopped hoping/longing for my affair partner to be the one to hold out a hand, but that doesn't mean the hoping/longing have gone away. 

My grandma died last night.  Even though we weren't incredibly close, she influenced me and my life in many ways and I am grieving what was and what could have been, but wasn't.  And I'm grieving for my mom, who was very close to grandma and is carrying so much right now.  But mostly I'm grieving my own loneliness in this time.  This loss is the beginning of what may be a season of loss.  I have two beloved dogs who are unlikely to make it through the Fall and the looming possibility of losing my father to a progressive disease in the next couple years.  I try not to "proactively" mourn those losses, but there are times when the they grow in my mind and the most frightening aspect of those future losses is the thought that there will not be any arms to wrap around me and hold me and promise to keep holding on as long as I need them.  dBPDxh had a tendency to let go of me very quickly and shift back over expecting me to hold him up, but right now I long for even a brief hug where I'm the one being comforted.

Tonight I'm tired of being strong.  Tonight I'm tired of being alone.  Tomorrow I will care for my children and my parents and my friends and my clients and my dogs, but tonight I'm allowing myself to be weak.  I just wish I didn't have to be weak alone.

BG

[pearlsw]

Tonight I'm tired of being strong.  Tonight I'm tired of being alone.  Tomorrow I will care for my children and my parents and my friends and my clients and my dogs, but tonight I'm allowing myself to be weak.  I just wish I didn't have to be weak alone.

BG

hey ya'll!   

One of the most curious things about my old friend/lover was that he never really let me do much for him... .he was always caring for me in this incredibly unselfish way. I gave what I could... .what he would let me... .but in terms of the small amount of sex we had it was all give on his part. I had to really... .I don't know... .like a martial art almost try to take his energy and turn it back around and give to him. I am so comfortable in give mode, and not so much in take mode and he really pushed me to be in take mode - in every way. In some ways it was great, in other ways it felt, almost incompatible... .but I dunno... .on the other hand that might have been fun had we ever gotten out of bubble world. I sure would have liked to try/know what it would be like.

It's like a movie without an ending. That's what I liked about him in the first place. It was almost better to have a lost love that didn't work out, than a relationship that tanked. It felt like... .like I had this one really beautiful thing in life that no one could take away from me. This is what our first time together when we were young, single, and free felt like. That is why when I met him later and finally gave in to my feelings for him that... it was soo like getting to have some earlier part of my life back.

I am struck by how both you and Wickerman in his last post here (and thank you so much like always!) how much of an affair is really just like getting to live in a fantasy world. It's no wonder people do it. I would have never guessed... .You can't know until you end up in this strange world. But oh, too, I know it was real. I know it was. He loved me. It was simple, sweet, pure, genuine and doomed.

For a time after it ended I just had this gnawing feeling we would get together someday, somehow... .but I have gradually let that go. Things do remind me though. These small, tiny, tiny things... .when I need a bit of help with a small daily travel issue... .knowing... .remembering in the depths of my body how he could just swoop in and make something work, take a worry away... .But he was not perfect. But he was pretty great.

Yes, Wickerman too, I get it. The haunting. The haunting of it all. The way it eats you alive. I wish I had never joined this club. It feels like a trap you somehow never get out of. It consumes you at times. You make peace and it's like a weed that pops back up and you have to pull it again, and again, and again.

Sigh. While away on vacation my SO "ended our relationship" then tried to restart it, the usual stuff that helped get me into this mess in the first place... .And those old thoughts are still there, on the backburner. What if I could talk to him? But I have nothing to say really. I promised not to contact him and I won't... .although my relationship with my SO is in the same lousy state and there is still no future for it... .

But... .I... .I remember something my friend/lover said to me in another language... .He told me I need to find someone to "help carry my load in life"... .I just... .I am so tired of this part of my life simply not functioning. I just want to take it all into my own hands and either never, ever do a relationship again... .or do it right.

I'm going to let myself remember him for a minute... .the him from our single years... .What will I let myself remember? What memory will I gift myself today to restore my faith in life?

We were on a bus... .and I noticed he was having back pain so I gave up my seat for him and went and laid in the back of the bus on the floor... .I was in pain from food poisoning, trying to hide it from him a bit, afraid he would leave me... .but he didn't leave... .and years later when he was injured and not really able to move completely... .I tried to relieve his pain... .and take care of him as best I could. He was embarrassed and uncomfortable, but it was such a privilege to have a small chance to know what it would have/could have been like had we ever had a chance for more than a few hours together in our entire lives.

I know it was wrong in the big picture of things, but... .the hours with him... .I cherish them. He didn't want anything from me. Anything. He would not let me give. He just gave. It brings me tears to think of how... .what it was like to experience/witness/receive this kind of love.  Oh, here come the tears.

It's been a rough vacation!

thanks ya'll... .I am still thinking a lot on all you've said. you are incredibly generous with me too!

with gratitude, pearl.

p.s. Oh BeagleGirl, I am sorry to hear of the death in your family! I lost both my grandparents in the last months and it was very, very sad. It sure causes you to stop and reexamine life!

p.s.s. I am with you too. I have always been "the strong one" that no one worries about or helps. Mostly on my own. It made me independent, but also... .very, very alone. And maybe it will always be this way. I am sorry you feel alone!     

[Wicker Man]

It's like a movie without an ending... ... ..It was almost better to have a lost love that didn't work out, than a relationship that tanked. It felt like... .like I had this one really beautiful thing in life that no one could take away from me... ... ..it was soo like getting to have some earlier part of my life back.

Your metaphor of an affair being much like hopping into the second act of a movie and leaving at the beginning of the third act is very thought provoking, and in my opinion very accurate.  Particularly since you knew your affair partner in your past.  It must have been intoxicating to have the memory of him from your youth and fantasy those memories invoked.  To only then have him reappear at just the right time in your adult life it is no wonder you were swept away.

My affair represented a great escape from life as I had known it.  An escape into the unknown -it was exhilarating and terrifying.  Not only was the limerence of new love in full swing, but I had 25 years of repression a sexless marriage had created tearing through my psyche and driving me into Dream Come True's arms.  I am learning now I had replaced sexual desire and expression by expressing myself as an artist in my work (sublimation). 

It felt like... .well... .a dream come true... .  To have, what I perceived in the moment, to be the love of my life appear within the context of my work -which had always been in itself the love of my life.  I quite simply am amazed, looking back in 20/20 hindsight, at the perfect storm which my affair created and the utter blindness of being swept away in that moment -it was temporary insanity. 

When the entire mess came crashing down on me I remember feeling as if I had woken in the midst of a nightmare -a nightmare of my own creation.  Within the seduction of the affair I did experience the two best weeks of my life, but at such a cost!  It is difficult to reconcile the pain and fallout now.  However that is in the light of day -In the moment, no cost was too great.  In the moment it felt like I was fighting for my life, my happiness and my future.

... .an affair is really just like getting to live in a fantasy world. It's no wonder people do it. I would have never guessed... .You can't know until you end up in this strange world. But oh, too, I know it was real. I know it was. He loved me. It was simple, sweet, pure, genuine and doomed.

From what I have read in Esther Perel's books 'Mating in Captivity' and the 'State of Affairs' part of the driving force behind affairs is the escapism, and the forbidden, compounded by the effort which is put into the clandestine nature of the affair.  The seduction of stealing a few moments to text your lover, the preparation and danger in meeting, the anticipation of those meetings.  This is all heady stuff.  You mention you knew your affair was doomed -having an expiration date on something makes it all the more precious. 

For a time after it ended I just had this gnawing feeling we would get together someday, somehow... .but I have gradually let that go... ... ..But he was not perfect. But he was pretty great.

Ok... .  Here I have some direct knowledge.  My affair, as you know, caused me to do a 180˚ turn, tearing up my 'old life' and jumping ship.  Even knowing affairs have a 1 in 10 chance of turning into a healthy marriage I still broke my home and planned to start a new life with my affair partner.  I was swept away and blinded by what I thought was true love and a happiness I had only rarely allowed myself to even dream.  Even though you miss your affair partner it is, very likely, fortunate you left him as a fantasy.  There is immense emotional fallout from divorcing.  If you were to have both divorced and attempted a life together the pressure would have likely broken both of you. 

In my case the emotional breaking point came while I was preparing a vacation home for sale.  My wife and I had renovated the place from the ground up with our own hands.  Having this place had been my wife's dream and I was preparing her dream for sale.  This put an enormous pressure on my psyche and this pressure likely saved my life.  It was during this time ':)ream Come True' emotionally dysregulated falling into a seven day rage.  She threatened a breakup and it caused me to have an epiphany.

Yes... ... ..The haunting. The haunting of it all. The way it eats you alive. I wish I had never joined this club. It feels like a trap you somehow never get out of. It consumes you at times. You make peace and it's like a weed that pops back up and you have to pull it again, and again, and again.

Amen sister!  To be honest I still can't believe Dream Come True is really gone -no longer a part of my life.  While we were together there was constant contact.  One day I was out of country and we watched an entire movie together on a video call.  We both found the 'precense' of the other soothing -even if it was just a video call.  We were each other's perfect drug.  Sure... .Red flag.  In the moment red was the color of love... .Hell! all the flags in China are red... .

So this begs the question how does one come home after such an experience?  How do I now go back to living a life ordinary?  I have traded bullet trains in China for a painful car commute through Los Angeles.  The excitement of living in China for the reality of Southern California.  My affair was a fantasy -but what a beautiful dream!  One night during the beginning of my affair I had an incredibly vivid dream, vision like. --I  saw her hand resting on her pregnant belly.  The image was as haunting as it was beautiful and I pray one day it will fade.  With the end of my affair also went the possibility of starting a family -this has truly been a year of many losses.

I try to reconcile the fantasy I had created with the knowledge of what the reality of a life with her would have likely been like (brief, costly and painful), but it is slow going.  I am guessing my therapist will be a part of my life for a long time to come.  I have learned there is virtually nothing written about the difficulty of sex with one's wife after the betraying husband ends an affair -from the perspective of the betrayer. 

Compound this with my affair having had intensity the beginning of a BPD relationship typically seems to offer I currently find myself in quite an emotional mess.  The machinations of trying to balance caring for my wife and the pain I caused her with the emotional fallout pushing Dream Come True out of my life has left me reeling.  You are right -being in the 'affair club' is really rough.  I would not recommend it to anyone.

Sigh. While away on vacation my SO "ended our relationship" then tried to restart it

@Pearl I am so very sorry he did it again.  Thank you for sharing this with us.  It caused me to realize this can be part of the BPD 'script' and helps me personally reaffirm my resolve in ending my affair and coming 'home'.  Dream Come True's break up with me (on Christmas day --classic... .) was likely going to be the 2nd of many.  Early on she threatened me with a break up and I told her -this is not a negotiating tool.  I told her we can let this one pass, but you only get to break up with me one more time and it will be final.  I wasn't angry with her, but simply stating the facts as I saw them.  I attributed her first break up to her youth and bad habits.  I explained in a nurturing way 'Words have meaning and words have power' -so mind yourself.  Apparently... .she forgot... .  One cannot precede through a relationship with a gun to the head. 

In fact, I explained to her the concept of MAD [Mutually Assured Destruction].  I am a product of the cold war and grew up with the concept of the USSR and the US ending life on earth.  I told Dream Come True it is a lousy way to live and we must not go through our relationship with 'A finger on the button'.  Apparently she lives her life with her fragile twitching finger ever hovering above the button.  So tragically sad. 

To add a note of further tragedy a friend of hers contacted me and Dream Come True is still wearing the engagement ring and 'waiting' for me.  Her friend intimated if Dream Come True were to believe I would not come back she would end her life.  BPD is a diabolical disorder.  With a note of pessimism is she has truly been 'waiting' for me these seven months this is likely the longest period she hasn't cheated on us... . 

What if I could talk to him? But I have nothing to say really. I promised not to contact him and I won't... .although my relationship with my SO is in the same lousy state and there is still no future for it... .

Dear Pearl in this case do you mean your husband or affair partner as 'him'?  If you mean your affair partner as 'him' my advice would be to figure out what you are going to do in your marriage.  If there is truly no future in your marriage and you wish to terminate it do so without contacting your affair partner.  If you end your marriage and still find yourself thinking about your affair partner then reach out to him. 

A divorce causes emotional fallout you cannot anticipate until you have been through it.  It is not the time to be talking to a lover --everything would be colored and weighted by your divorce and this can cause questionable decision making (myself as a crash and burn case in point).

... .either never, ever do a relationship again... .or do it right.

Never is a long time.  You seem to be a lovely person who has a lot to offer in a relationship.  Don't give up on the idea of love and don't make any promises to yourself at this point. If you terminate your marriage, in time, you may find yourself one day ready for another relationship.  However, I understand the notion of 'enough is enough'; the drive to simply stop the madness and be left in peace.   

I'm going to let myself remember him for a minute... .the him from our single years... .What will I let myself remember? What memory will I gift myself today to restore my faith in life?

"Put your confidence in us. Give us your faith and your blessing, and, under Providence, all will be well. We shall not fail or falter; we shall not weaken or tire" -Churchill

No matter how dark things seem right now they will get better.  You are asking the hard questions and this is the first step to making lasting and positive change.  Be kind to yourself, take your time and the right path for you will become clear.

He [affair partner] didn't want anything from me. Anything. He would not let me give. He just gave. It brings me tears to think of how... .what it was like to experience/witness/receive this kind of love.

 
Dream Come True asked me one time 'What do you want from me' I answered 'Your soul'. I would venture to guess 'He' wanted your love and you offered him this most precious of gifts.

Oh, here come the tears... ... ..It's been a rough vacation!

I am so sorry you are going through all of this.  It will get better.


Wicker Man

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Pearl,

I'm sorry to hear that you've continued to have difficulties whilst away on your trip, although I'm sure that wasn't unexpected.  Also sorry that your memories are giving you cause for tears.  Perhaps a good cry to release some of those feelings will prove healing for you.  I'm glad you have the space to allow them to come out unchallenged. 

Reading your thread, a couple of things have stood out to me and I'm going to give you an analogy.  When I first began practising mindfulness, one particular meditation gave me great comfort.  It's called the mountain meditation.  I know this seems off topic, but bear with me. 

When we begin, we visualise a mountain and picture it's beauty, strength and solidity.  Then we acknowledge the changes it goes through during different seasons, as the environment around it and the weather it withstands alters continually.  You can probably see where I'm going with this now.  All the while the mountain stands strong and unmoving, no matter how much of a beating it takes from the wind, rain, snow, harsh sun, erosion from people and animals walking it's slopes.  The mountain remains dignified and unchanged within. 

The next part is the part which is interesting I hope to you.  The meditation then involves picturing us bringing the mountain into ourselves, so that we become one with the mountain and possess it's qualities.  We embody the strength and stamina of the mountain, it's unwavering truth to itself.  Needless to say it's a very powerful experience in my view and has gotten me through some tough times whilst retaining what makes me, well, me.

Now as I read your thread, especially the post where you consider reaching out to your ex lover at this difficult time in your life and when you also speak of wanting to give, I began to wonder if there is a way that you can embody all that he represents to you and give that gift to yourself.  What do you think?   

Love and light x   

[pearlsw]

The next part is the part which is interesting I hope to you.  The meditation then involves picturing us bringing the mountain into ourselves, so that we become one with the mountain and possess it's qualities.  We embody the strength and stamina of the mountain, it's unwavering truth to itself.  Needless to say it's a very powerful experience in my view and has gotten me through some tough times whilst retaining what makes me, well, me.

Hey HQ!  

What a beautiful gift to wake up to! I am just now seeing this! I can so picture that mountain.

I had planned to post a note I wrote to myself on the train ride back to where I live, but the beauty of this... .I want to just take a moment to marvel at this. I think I will take this mountain with me when these other intrusive thoughts pop up! I am already so in love with this mountain! hahahaahaha.  

*****

From yesterday (while feeling sad about love):

You haunt me. You haunt me. You haunt me. I let you down. So many times. I never let myself believe you loved me because people who love each other end up together right? But not always, really, huh? But I know, deep down, I know it was love.

Where are you now? Were you okay after what happened? Will I ever know? Will I ever see or hear from you again? Is it best to forget you forever? Could I do that? Why? Are you haunted too? Are you happy? Was that true? Were you really as happy as you said [with your life as it is] or was your life a living death too? I won’t contact you, I tell myself, and haven't, because I do not want any harm to come to you. I pray that none ever came to you, but my SO is so “crazy” and I just don’t know. And that eats me up a bit, but I must live with it... .but it is so hard not to know for sure.

I hope you drank that special bottle of alcohol I gave you like I asked you to. I finally spent the money, on my trip. I held onto it for years, that small pile of money I didn’t want in the first place, but you always insisted to cover my expenses and snuck it into my purse for me to discover later - when it was too late to sneak it back to you. I was always too proud to take any help, refused it always, didn't need it really, wanted to pay my own way, so you snuck it. What a sweet fella you were.

I spent it on things that connected me to you, to honor your life wishes for me in a way it felt, and most importantly I think, to let you go a little more. You would be mad, I know, if you knew I hadn’t spent it already. I wanted you to drink that bottle and laugh and remember our jokes…but I bet you didn’t. You said you would save it until I was back some day and drink it with me. But I don’t think I’m gonna make it back, ever. The world is big and I need to head in another direction and let you go. Let the love and memories go or I won’t…ever be able to…

Here I am crying. Finally letting tears come. Damn you my SO for never f—ing letting me cry for myself and my pain and losses. You even took my tears away from me you cruel $#@%^&#*! (I don't usually get so angry - just inside myself! I need to learn more about anger... .)

I can picture you, my old friend/lover, going through the motions of life. Taking care of the kids, the company, yourself, her when you have to, but not from romantic love, not from anything other than an even stronger sense of duty and responsibility than I have. I must admit I am more impressed by the other two men in my head who did leave bad life/relationship situations, refused to live lives of desperation and not be alive…late, mistakes, and all. But I understand what it is like to live with less and just go on and on... .so I do not judge you for your choices.

How many of you, the men in my life in the last few years, have traded all you have away over kids only to lose out completely on love? And I came into your orbits and now I’ve lost out too. Funny how that works. And I keep losing. In the end I will have lost all of you I suspect. Oh, you make me sad. All of you. All three of you in my head.

Though each very special and unique, it’s funny how alike a few of the things you all said to me are really. So…whew! Each of you saying I was your dream…and each of you being a dream for me at certain points along the way…bits of a dream, but always, always incomplete and that's what hurts. Nothing quite working out despite real passion and deep love in each case... .

There are no guarantees in life. And the truth is this love life stuff just hasn’t worked out. I did have a lot of love. So much love. Some incredibly happy moments that anyone would wish for. Absolute highlights.

I know life is not cruel, but these are the moments I have my doubts. I hear that song again that reminds me of you, that one song. It plays in my head, over and over and over…You were everywhere…in every thought and daydream…

Why is happiness so fleeting? And why I am with the cruelest, meanest person I’ve ever met? Why did I end up with someone whose major life skill is crushing the hope and love out of life? Nevertheless I don’t want to let him down either. Him or anyone.

But how far will I go to make my points? How far will I go to prove I can make this work and “win” against all this? How far will I go to prove I didn’t make a major f—ing life mistake? hahahaha. That makes me laugh. Because it is so true! hahaahahaha. I never said it before! Oh, that makes me laugh at myself.

I will have stories. Before it all ends I will have stories. How many loves lost at this point? The sheer agony of it all.

I’m sitting on a train surrounded by young men on their way to or from doing their obligatory military service. It’s funny. Thinking of you. All three of you. One of you managed to avoid it in both of your countries of origin. Another felt drawn to serve others his entire life in various ways. And the other? I’m not sure, but I think you probably had to serve too, and although very independent, you are also very duty bound. Look at all of you, just following the rules of manhood and playing by the rules at any price, all of you strong in your own ways. It’s been amazing really, watching and learning from all of you. To give and receive love, damaged and all. It was great. Each of you treasures in your own special ways.  Why didn’t I met any of you at the right moment in life? Or if it wasn’t the right moment, why wasn’t I able to turn it into the right moment?

If things could just work with my SO this would be the simplest, easy version of life. But it won’t in all likelihood work and I’m kidding myself at this point to wish for it to be easy. And thanks to all of this I get to have another “failure” on the resume of my life. Ah, but really, I don’t see things that way….How can it be a failure if you are learning and growing and changing and doing your best? It can’t be. It isn’t. All you can do is your best.

****
Happier today... .I am lucky really. Despite all the loss I am so lucky to have had so much love.

Thanks again HQ. Your post here inspires me to change the quality of the alone time I have with my thoughts. I don't want to slip into despair, or get lost in the past, or give up on the future. Thanks for giving me a whole mountain! What a gift!    

[pearlsw]

Your metaphor of an affair being much like hopping into the second act of a movie and leaving at the beginning of the third act is very thought provoking, and in my opinion very accurate.  Particularly since you knew your affair partner in your past.  It must have been intoxicating to have the memory of him from your youth and fantasy those memories invoked.  To only then have him reappear at just the right time in your adult life it is no wonder you were swept away.

My affair represented a great escape from life as I had known it.  An escape into the unknown -it was exhilarating and terrifying. 
Wicker Man

Wow. I was reading backwards up the thread and there was another gem I hadn't seen yet! Wickerman! Wow! Amazing! I have to get ready for work so any reply now wouldn't do this amazing, thoughtful note any kind of justice. So for now, let me just say, my mind is blown!

Yes, hopefully, in addition to helping me sort out my stuff this stands as a cautionary tale to others to not cross these lines in life. The dimensions of how this can torture you are not easy to imagine in their depth and complexity!

Just one quick difference to name, nothing about having secrets or being in danger nothing was appealing to me - nothing. I'm a goodie goodie kinda gal all in all. I broke the rules more out of sheer (but deeply repressed in some respects) anger at my SO for getting away with saying and doing everything and not being able to stop him, and also from feeling like having followed the rules all my life had apparently gotten me nowhere - well that was a justification - and it seemed life was nearly over anyway with no clear paths back to my former life. (In fact it had been great to follow rules.) I've probably said it before, but I can't cross an intersection at a crosswalk without feeling guilty, like I am breaking a big rule! Or eat a single grape at the grocery store as you see some people do! hahahahaaha. So, no, it was not fun in that sense. I am sure, as guilt ridden as I felt, and having had the need to talk about, but not being able with my friend/lover, I was the least fun person to cross these lines with! And that is a good thing!

You may also notice I have issues with the term "affair partner"... .This stems from the sheer number of breaks I dealt with, still deal with. My SO triggered the "off" part so many times, I lost track of the off and on button, what it is like being on a  normal monogamous relationship path. I am still confused as heck over it. It caused a level of psychological damage to me I can't even describe. My "relationship" has the lifespan of a week or so. Not much more than that. All the way back to absolute zero. Oh, and then he shows up and it's automatically back "on" again because he showed up for it.

Not.

Doesn't work like that.

Before this even got started, when I was just friends with my friend/lover I joked to him that I was not single and therefore could not do anything with him, but ya know, give it a week. It was a joke, but it... .it also came to pass many years later.

I don't know how to do a relationship that ends every week. No one should have to suffer like this, neither of us.

I know I am the only one who can stop it. I think it is likely I will have to end things once and for all if I can ever hope to have any peace of mind and anything near a normal life again just from this one aspect of things.

Thanks for your reinforcement not to contact my friend for these reasons as well.

so very deeply grateful, pearl.