Do more women these days have BPD traits due to technology and society?

[Husband321]

I tend to notice many of us guys are hard on ourselves.   Why did we pick a BPD? How could we fall for this? Why couldn't we make it work? Etc. and many of the men I know are now divorced ,part time or full time dads. When I hear their stories "BPD" comes to mind but in reality they are probably just women that have some of the traits and not full blown "BPD".

But when we look around, society is far different than it was in our parents generation. Here are some examples.

A. Many more children , with no fault  divorce laws, grow up in broken homes. Or the parents were never married in the first place.  Many of these girls never had a dad.  Know what a committed relationship  looks like. Stigma from divorce gone.

B. Social media.   Instagram.tinder  Facebook.  YouTube.  Everything concentrates more on looks and the outside, than actually developing traits that are conducive to being a good mom  or wife. Instant fame.  Everyone else seems to have a better life on Facebook.

C. Prostitution.  Yes there have always been professional escorts. But studies show a fairly large percentage of college age girls meet and have sugar daddies through hundreds of websites. How does this effect their over all view and behavior in relationships?  Just click a mouse, add a photo, and pick a guy that will pay you for "company".  Attachments not formed when sex occurs.

D. Internet dating.  An endless stream of guys giving attention.  From all over the city.  Country. World.  Why "fix yourself"  when you can just jump to another man who is seemingly "better".  Back in the day women might see an attractive man or 2 in their life.  Now they scan profiles and have several offering themselves.   A woman on dating sites might get 200 emails a day.  

E.  Sex instead of skills.  Traditionally men paid for dates, and in return the woman was developing  skills to be a homemaker.  Now men pay for dates and in return the only thing to offer is sex.  Traditional female roles are almost frowned upon.

F.  Court system.  Women know inherently the system is on their side.  Cheating does not matter.  If you have children The woman will keep them, if she wants, and receive child support and alimony.  Man imprisoned if he does not pay up for wife and her new family.

G. Govt.  Welfare  programs take the place of "dad" in other cases.  It does not harm any woman to choose poorly and jump around, man to man.  


So I think the above reasons contribute to why so many men are saying "wow. She is BPD". "I married a psycho".  "She cheated the entire time". Etc etc. when in reality many of these women are not "BPD" but are just using society and looks to their  advantage.

[steelwork]

Husband321, I think you're onto something with some of these points. I think there are social forces at work that support a lot of personality-disordered traits--mainly the fact that we are as a society so much more isolated from each other. Primarily face-to-face relationships and the accountability they entail are on the decline and are being replaced with relationships in which there's a layer of technology between people (be that social media, texting, internet dating). It's just easier than ever to treat people badly, imho, if you're even a tiny bit prone to do so.

I just don't know what to do about that. Reality is that you are battling uphill if you eliminate those ways of interacting/meeting people. Maybe the best we can do is to steer relationships into modes of person-to-person interaction where accountability is unavoidable.

1. People who might present false selves through technology will have less opportunity to do so.
2. We will learn more about who people really are before falling in love with them or otherwise investing too much in the relationship.

[steelwork]

Having said that... .

Some of these points seem a little off-base.

C. Prostitution.  Yes there have always been professional escorts. But studies show a fairly large percentage of college age girls meet and have sugar daddies through hundreds of websites. How does this effect their over all view and behavior in relationships?  Just click a mouse, add a photo, and pick a guy that will pay you for "company".  Attachments not formed when sex occurs. ]

I guess it's true that attachments are less likely to form in a sex act that is a business arrangement... .so it's pretty easy to avoid such encounters. Don't go to prostitutes looking for relationships.

D. Internet dating.  An endless stream of guys giving attention.  From all over the city.  Country. World.  Why "fix yourself"  when you can just jump to another man who is seemingly "better".  Back in the day women might see an attractive man or 2 in their life.  Now they scan profiles and have several offering themselves.   A woman on dating sites might get 200 emails a day.  

Having been a woman on internet dating sites, I can assure you that most of the emails are creepy, annoying, unwanted attention that don't tend to puff you up. And mostly from men 15-20 years older.

E.  Sex instead of skills.  Traditionally men paid for dates, and in return the woman was developing  skills to be a homemaker.  Now men pay for dates and in return the only thing to offer is sex.  Traditional female roles are almost frowned upon.

I don't see the connection between women being financially independent and women having sex in return for dinner and a movie.

F.  Court system.  Women know inherently the system is on their side.  Cheating does not matter.  If you have children The woman will keep them, if she wants, and receive child support and alimony.  Man imprisoned if he does not pay up for wife and her new family.

I'm sorry. This sounds like it reflects some hard personal experience. But I don't know that cheating (on either side) should impact child support or alimony. I don't think this is a realistic analysis of how or why cheating happens in a marriage. I think it's far-fetched to think that a woman (or a man) makes some risk calculation about future legal outcomes when infidelity happens.

G. Govt.  Welfare  programs take the place of "dad" in other cases.  It does not harm any woman to choose poorly and jump around, man to man.  

Is the better alternative to imprison women (and children) in relationships where they are relying on abusive men to support them?

Just pushing back on some of this. I hope you don't take offense.

[Husband321]

Having said that... .

Some of these points seem a little off-base.

I guess it's true that attachments are less likely to form in a sex act that is a business arrangement... .so it's pretty easy to avoid such encounters. Don't go to prostitutes looking for relationships.

Having been a woman on internet dating sites, I can assure you that most of the emails are creepy, annoying, unwanted attention that don't tend to puff you up. And mostly from men 15-20 years older.

I don't see the connection between women being financially independent and women having sex in return for dinner and a movie.

I'm sorry. This sounds like it reflects some hard personal experience. But I don't know that cheating (on either side) should impact child support or alimony. I don't think this is a realistic analysis of how or why cheating happens in a marriage. I think it's far-fetched to think that a woman (or a man) makes some risk calculation about future legal outcomes when infidelity happens.

Is the better alternative to imprison women (and children) in relationships where they are relying on abusive men to support them?

Just pushing back on some of this. I hope you don't take offense.

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly.  

I am not, nor are guys I know "going to prostitutes for relationships".

The way it works now is that the girl you meet who is 30, already did that in college and you would have no idea.  It's not like they come out and tell you. So she has a degree, a job, but in the past worked as a "sugar baby".

I did not say women have sex for dinner and a movie.  I said the skills they have to offer a man are primarily sex.   Homemaking is now frowned upon in many ways.  However men are still largely expected to be the bread winner.

I do think if you have a free pass to cheat (I will get the kids, alimony, and child support) the act of cheating is diminished. We have brains and are not complete animals.  I think if you would lose your kids, and not receive a dime, one would think twice before cheating.  Obviously. As you said a woman can cheat and should still get alimony.  Getting paid for a job she quit.

Don't have kids with and marry "abusive" men.  If the outs were not so easy, we would have far less broken homes.  Studies show  far more women divorce because of boredom over "abuse".   Although many claim "abuse" in one  form or another. The actual abused women tend to stay married.

More or less a different mindset. "I deserve this. I deserve that. He isn't making me happy enough. If I leave I get paid and can be happy.  Let me anonymously test the waters first and meet people on my smart phone"

[steelwork]

I am not, nor are guys I know "going to prostitutes for relationships".

The way it works now is that the girl you meet who is 30, already did that in college and you would have no idea.  It's not like they come out and tell you. So she has a degree, a job, but in the past worked as a "sugar baby".

What percent of women do you think work as prostitutes or are "sugar babies"?]

I did not say women have sex for dinner and a movie.  I said the skills they have to offer a man are primarily sex.   Homemaking is now frowned upon in many ways.  However men are still largely expected to be the bread winner.

Why do women need to offer men "skills"? What about companionship and understanding? I won't take on your assumption that men are largely expected to be breadwinners. It's not my experience. Maybe the issue is more that women still make 78 cents for ever dollar a man makes; or that women are fired or otherwise penalized for becoming pregnant, and earn less for every child they have--whereas men statistically earn more for every child.

I do think if you have a free pass to cheat (I will get the kids, alimony, and child support) the act of cheating is diminished. We have brains and are not complete animals.  I think if you would lose your kids, and not receive a dime, one would think twice before cheating.  Obviously. As you said a woman can cheat and should still get alimony.  Getting paid for a job she quit.

Alimony is not getting paid for a job you quit. Child support is not for ex-spouses; it's for children.

Don't have kids with and marry "abusive" men.  

I throw it back to you: don't get in relationships with women who ensnare you with their looks and highly sexualized behavior.

In any case, abuse is not something that shows up on the first date! Often it's not present in a marriage until, for instance, there are children.

[Donalith]

Husband321,

I'm hearing a lot of things in your initial post and to paraphrase:

Men are stupid in some way for repeatedly picking "bad" women.
-->Men are constant victims of women.
----->Women must be "bad".
-------->Women aren't intrinsically "bad": society makes them this way.

So... .a few things to ponder.

If you made the initial post gender non-specific and replaced the gender terms with "people", you may offend less people and get a better discussion and perhaps more answers.

It sounds like you shifted from men are stupid and victims to "it's not our fault, women are the problem." By not taking responsibility and making yourself the "victim" you are more likely to repeat the process. Self-awareness and self-correction are the first steps to clearer vision of others.

Your entire viewpoint on women is demeaning, minimizing and dehumanizing. People generally look for partners that match their ideology or mental "picture" of what their partner should be.

Perhaps if you changed your subconscious expectations of the distaff gender you would encounter people better suited to relating to you.

Best of Luck.

[Husband321]

Husband321,

I'm hearing a lot of things in your initial post and to paraphrase:

Men are stupid in some way for repeatedly picking "bad" women.
-->Men are constant victims of women.
----->Women must be "bad".
-------->Women aren't intrinsically "bad": society makes them this way.

So... .a few things to ponder.

If you made the initial post gender non-specific and replaced the gender terms with "people", you may offend less people and get a better discussion and perhaps more answers.

It sounds like you shifted from men are stupid and victims to "it's not our fault, women are the problem." By not taking responsibility and making yourself the "victim" you are more likely to repeat the process. Self-awareness and self-correction are the first steps to clearer vision of others.

Your entire viewpoint on women is demeaning, minimizing and dehumanizing. People generally look for partners that match their ideology or mental "picture" of what their partner should be.

Perhaps if you changed your subconscious expectations of the distaff gender you would encounter people better suited to relating to you.

Best of Luck.

Well I do believe far more women do exhibit traits of BPD in this day and age, , layed out the reasons why, and explained that they may not even be BPD. We have a far more selfish culture less conducive to long term marriages, monogamy, and families.

I'm not here to argue the non existent wage gap, or if cheaters should get alimony.

Jus pointing out what I see in real life happening.

[Donalith]

If you weren't here for a "discussion" or "help", was this just a complaint you wanted everyone to see and agree with? Did you need validation of some kind?

So to complete your sentence for you:

"Well I do believe far more women do exhibit traits of BPD in this day and age... .than men."

Is there a reason you felt a need to voice this?

[Skip]

Question: Do more women these days have BPD traits due to technology and society?

This is the Learning Board so I thought I'd add some factual data to this.

34,653 face to face interviews were conducted in 2004 - 2006. The research was conducted by the Laboratory of Epidemiology and Biometry at the National Institute for Health (NIH).
 
Some conclusions are:

the prevalence of the disorder is  5.9% that prevalence in men is the same as women. BPD was more prevalent among (1) Native American men, (2) younger and separated/divorced/windowed adults, and (3) lower income and education. BPD was less prevalent among Hispanic men and women, and Asian women. the study details many other conclusions such as BPD prevalence was greatest among people with bipolar disorder (50%), panic disorder, or drug dependence.  Smokers were also more likely to have BPD.

Does your social theory fit the data?

See article here

[steelwork]

OP: I sense that you feel pretty ill used by at least one woman.  It's not an unusual thing for that to get generalized toward "women," but hopefully it's a temporary generalization.

I assume you're here to learn. I feel that is the most helpful stance.  Toward that end, what do you think about my initial response re. social media?

[spacecadet]

Hi RH, what I hear you asking in general terms is, have the old mores and expectations of how men and women relate to each other changed radically in the last 1-2 generations? To that, yes absolutely, and yes it makes r/s more difficult to stick to and they fly apart more easily.

It does go both ways. I think in men and women both, there's much more narcissism and unrealistic expectations, much less willingness to hang in through problems, be a team etc. than there was. Plus our whole society is extremely materialistic right now.

My grandfather (one of them) couldn't keep himself zipped up during the marriage and my grandmother stayed through his serial cheating. It broke her heart, she bore 5 children in 10 years, and the children felt the stress of the turbulence in their marriage.  By the time I was observing them they were 80-ish, she had made peace with everything and he'd stopped stepping out (probably years earlier), and they were comfortable with one another. I personally would not put up with that. She had no choice with five kids, no job skills, and they did NOT have alimony/child support back then. So they would have been destitute had she left.

FWIW, I have many women friends (different ages), frank conversations and do not know one retired escort/sugar baby. Might this be a case of men attracted to certain kinds of women? Not to stigmatize it, but... .maybe try a woman in whom you discern a spiritual life and ethical compass? (i see you're married, talking in hypotheticals)

I throw it back to you: don't get in relationships with women who ensnare you with their looks and highly sexualized behavior.

+1

Yes men have more urgency in their sex drive, but detachment and circumspection early on will save heartache down the road. And it's almost impossible to remain detached if people are going crazy on each other from the get-go.

[Husband321]

Question: Do more women these days have BPD traits due to technology and society?

This is the Learning Board so I thought I'd add some factual data to this.

34,653 face to face interviews were conducted in 2004 - 2006. The research was conducted by the Laboratory of Epidemiology and Biometry at the National Institute for Health (NIH).
 
Some conclusions are:

the prevalence of the disorder is  5.9% that prevalence in men is the same as women. BPD was more prevalent among (1) Native American men, (2) younger and separated/divorced/windowed adults, and (3) lower income and education. BPD was less prevalent among Hispanic men and women, and Asian women. the study details many other conclusions such as BPD prevalence was greatest among people with bipolar disorder (50%), panic disorder, or drug dependence.  Smokers were also more likely to have BPD.

Does your social theory fit the data?

See article here

To an extent.

More typically traditional cultures (Asian and Hispanic) have the lowest rates of BPD.

And my theory was that not all of these women we label as "BPD" are full blown "BPD" but they just have more traits of BPD than women in the past.  they are today's woman.

Probably 50 years ago "easy sexually" was a red flag.  Now it's the norm.  :)ivorce now the norm. Courts don't even care about cheating as it is so rampant.

It's not like our moms were posting selfies and had secret smart phones 50 years ago. Today that is the norm.  

[spacecadet]

PS - most states (I believe?) have no-fault divorce. Problem with punishing people for cheating is, a) how do you prove it and b) who cheated first c) what did the other person do that may have led to cheating, e.g. lose interest in sex etc. etc. etc.

The one thing we can do, and the only thing, is vote with our feet, i.e. prioritize people who exhibit signs of good character over those with the best looking behind. to be blunt.

[steelwork]

The one thing we can do, and the only thing, is vote with our feet, i.e. prioritize people who exhibit signs of good character over those with the best looking behind. to be blunt.

I wholeheartedly agree. I think what Husband seems to be saying is that the old shorthand ways of identifying people (actually, apparently just women) of bad character, such as those who sleep around a lot or get divorced, are no longer reliable indicators. I'd argue that they were never good indicators.

That being said, Husband, do you have any ideas about what you can do to avoid women of bad moral character?

[Husband321]

https://seekingarrangement.com/sugar-baby-university
https://www.letstalksugar.com/news/sugar-baby-university/
"This year marks a ten-year high for Sugar Baby students, with over 3 million registered students currently seeking financial aid on SeekingArrangement.com."

That's one website.  

So yes. Millions of college age girls are becoming prostitutes. Thats astronomical.

These are the women who later want to be wives and mothers. Lol. Then when they can't form a bond, we think it is a mental disorder.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Why are you so focused on women and not people in general? Just curious.

[Husband321]

https://www.borderlinepersonalitytreatment.com/borderline-personality-disorder-women.html

This is a BPD board.  All the studies I have read indicate 75 to 85 percent of people with this disorder are women.

I suppose because I am a man who dates women. I haven't dated men.

[Donalith]

To an extent.

More typically traditional cultures (Asian and Hispanic) have the lowest rates of BPD.

And my theory was that not all of these women we label as "BPD" are full blown "BPD" but they just have more traits of BPD than women in the past.  they are today's woman.

Probably 50 years ago "easy sexually" was a red flag.  Now it's the norm.  :)ivorce now the norm. Courts don't even care about cheating as it is so rampant.

It's not like our moms were posting selfies and had secret smart phones 50 years ago. Today that is the norm.  

Again, you're over-generalizing and speaking in absolutes. Try speaking from your perspective only and did you have a question or is all this "just an observation" (which is a favorite catch-phrase of the BPD from my experience... .mind you, so is black and white thinking... .usually). Is there something you're trying to tell us without actually telling us?

[spacecadet]

Millions of college age girls are becoming prostitutes. Thats astronomical.

Excuse me but... .would you be willing to say that the "john's" bear 1/2 of the responsibility? Isn't vilifying the women and ignoring the role men play just a wee bit unfair?

How about the unrealistic expectations women now have to deal with, thanks the the treasure trove of porn everywhere?  My ex husband used to tell me he wanted me to do things to look more like porn women.    Notice how I call him my ex-husband.  

[Husband321]

Excuse me but... .would you be willing to say that the "john's" bear 1/2 of the responsibility? Isn't vilifying the women and ignoring the role men play just a wee bit unfair?

How about the unrealistic expectations women now have to deal with, thanks the the treasure trove of porn everywhere?  My ex husband used to tell me he wanted me to do things to look more like porn women.    Notice how I call him my ex-husband.  

Ok blame Johns as well. No argument here. Blame porn too.

It's not about blame though.  It's about what it is. And how society has changed and is changing. And how the above changes personalities.  Which is the point I am trying to make.

[Donalith]

Having gone back and read the previous posts of Husband321 I see a repeating pattern matching the contents of this thread and will no longer spend time reading this persons posts.

That'll learn me: I should probably read someone's historical story before attempting to respond to a current post. Would have saved me time and effort.

[steelwork]

 
So yes. Millions of college age girls are becoming prostitutes. Thats astronomical.

1. How do we know the women registering are college-aged?
2. How many are duplicate registrations?
3. How many registrants actively participate?
4. How many hundreds of millions of college-aged women are there globally? (Don't assume these websites are all U.S.)
5. Is "seeking an arrangement" the same as prostitution?

[Husband321]

1. How do we know the women registering are college-aged?
2. How many are duplicate registrations?
3. How many registrants actively participate?
4. How many hundreds of millions of college-aged women are there globally? (Don't assume these websites are all U.S.)
5. Is "seeking an arrangement" the same as prostitution?

1. They may or may not be.  They are still young ladies turning to sex for money.

2. Probably a lot.

3. Hard to tell.  Even once is crossing a line in my opinion

4. I can find more stats.  So I am not sure. prostitution  is legal in most nations.

5.  I would call it that.  I guess all prostitution is an arrangement of sorts with a varying  time line.

[Husband321]

Having gone back and read the previous posts of Husband321 I see a repeating pattern matching the contents of this thread and will no longer spend time reading this persons posts.

That'll learn me: I should probably read someone's historical story before attempting to respond to a current post. Would have saved me time and effort.

Ok.  Well thanks for your time and contributions.

[steelwork]

Okay, so to repeat my question: any practical ideas for how to avoid unhealthy relationships, Husband321?

[Skip]

https://www.borderlinepersonalitytreatment.com/borderline-personality-disorder-women.html

This is a BPD board.  All the studies I have read indicate 75 to 85 percent of people with this disorder are women.

I suppose because I am a man who dates women. I haven't dated men.

Husband321, that's not a study, that's a private DBT camp run by a social worker with very old data. And nothing against the people at Clearview. They are treatment center like the Betty Ford Clinic. Teens go their to live and work together, do chores, learn to solve problems, and take DBT classes. Not a clinical center. Not a research facility.

The National Institute of Health study is considered the standard.

[Husband321]

Okay, so to repeat my question: any practical ideas for how to avoid unhealthy relationships, Husband321?

Like I said, back in the day if a woman is taking naked photos of herself , or having sex on the first date, those were huge red flags.  And we had words for someone like that. Picture a woman in 1950 taking Polaroids of herself naked and handing to strangers . 

Now, in this day and age, those are no longer red flags. It's the norm.

So maybe we need women to chime in and tell men (pretend you are talking  to your son) what are potential red flags for men to avoid when choosing a partner?

[steelwork]

So maybe we need women to chime in and tell men (pretend you are talking  to your son) what are potential red flags for men to avoid when choosing a partner?

See my first response.

Don't rely on the presentation someone gives you on social media or via text. Withhold judgment until you've spent time in person with someone. Get to know them, and their friends and family if possible, before giving your heart away. Check in with yourself and ask if you are being unduly steered by sexual attraction.

What is a "red flag," really, but an often-misleading substitute for being a judge of character?

[toomanydogs]

https://www.borderlinepersonalitytreatment.com/borderline-personality-disorder-women.html

This is a BPD board.  All the studies I have read indicate 75 to 85 percent of people with this disorder are women.

I believe Skip indicated that the rate of BPD is equal in the sexes.
I agree with what others are saying: you're generalizing based on your experience, which happened to be with a woman.
It would be just as easy, and as erroneous, for me to generalize about men based on my STBX.
Further, there was a reason I got with STBX, and it had to do with my early childhood, which predisposed me to accept the chaos of a BPD.
An observation: you sound angry with all women not just your ex. I do hope you can let go of some of the over-generalizations and examine your own part in the relationship, and not because I want you to blame yourself or "take responsibility," but because by recognizing our own role in marrying or dating such disordered people, we're less likely to repeat the pattern.
TMD

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I believe Skip indicated that the rate of BPD is equal in the sexes.
I agree with what others are saying: you're generalizing based on your experience, which happened to be with a woman.
It would be just as easy, and as erroneous, for me to generalize about men based on my STBX.
Further, there was a reason I got with STBX, and it had to do with my early childhood, which predisposed me to accept the chaos of a BPD.
An observation: you sound angry with all women not just your ex. I do hope you can let go of some of the over-generalizations and examine your own part in the relationship, and not because I want you to blame yourself or "take responsibility," but because by recognizing our own role in marrying or dating such disordered people, we're less likely to repeat the pattern.
TMD

I completely agree. Good summary!