I'm angry and fantasizing about revenge

[Zemmma]

Okay, anyone who has ever respected me for anything I have ever written on here may lose that respect for me now.

I say I loved him and I say I still love him. But do I? Because in truth I want him to hurt. I genuinely want him to feel even 1/10th of the suffering he has caused me with his carelessness and lack of sensitivity. By busting into my life like an ambulance chaser when I was raw and broken because the love of my life and father of my children had suddenly left me after 27 years. He swooped into my life at that moment because he saw an opportunity, "a door opening." He begged me to confide in him. He saved me from feelings of worthlessness and abandonment. He drew me in with stories of his own childhood and marital woes. He took advantage of my vulnerability and then shortly after began to repeatedly wound me in the same ways. After healing me with love and attention and affection and sex... after asking with expressions of great confusion how any man could ever do these things to me. After telling me how wonderful I was and telling me how I opened his heart to love again. I was so broken. He knew I was seeing a therapist. He knew I was barely coping. He knew I was crying all the time, and sleeping only one to two hours per night and that I had lost ten pounds I didn't have to lose.

I am SO angry. This guy left me so many times. Then he came back- every time. Sometimes after nine months, or a year. But when he came back we would talk things over. He would say that he had been so messed up when we were together. That it wasn't about me, but about him. He would say the time apart had given him clarity about himself. He would apologize for hurting me. He would go deep about everything that had happened. We would cry together about all of the pain of the relationship, but especially about the pain of the breakups and of being apart. And his shame. He cried and opened up. He seemed remorseful. He seemed to care. He had been the one to break up every time. I told him how much those breakups had hurt me. I cried when I told him. He saw my pain. And he said he understood and he was sorry.

Last July when we got back together he PROMISED he would not break up with me again. He was done breaking up. Being apart was too hard. Even in the last week we were together and he was being so cold and distant, I asked him SIX times (in various ways) if he was breaking up with me, and he said no. He lied.

And then he did it. But not by having a rational heart to heart conversation, not acting like a gentleman in his mid-forties; like a kind man or decent person who genuinely believes we want different things in life, or don't get along properly and believes we should part ways. He just exploded and screamed at me to go away. Moments after we had loving sex. I don't even fully remember the conversation, because the screaming in my face shut me down... some fight/ flight/ freeze response. I had to ask him later if we were together and he was all incredulous with, "Of course we are broken up." One text and he was gone. Two months later, not one kind word. No apology. No goodbye.

I am so angry that he left me like that. I think it is mean and irresponsible. And I want revenge.

I want to hurt him. Inconvenience him. Or cause him pain and anxiety.

I dream up ways I can do this.

The first thing I came up with is actually pretty humorous. I know where he works. It is a place in my neighbourhood where he has to take his shoes off by the door because of the finished flooring. I fantasized about going there one evening when he is working upstairs and stealing one of his shoes. I laughed with my friends about what it would be like for him to get off of work, and be so far from home with only one shoe. I thought winter would be best for my devious plan. He would be coming off of a long shift and he would want to go home to eat dinner, or out for drinks with friends. It used to be me he would meet at the end of that shift. Before he cut me out. Now no shoe. I went through this scenario in my head. The perfect revenge? Ya, not really, but at least I could laugh about that one.

Now I am on to my second plot.

He has a big show tomorrow night. He is performing at a venue. He is extremely skilled at what he does. I know he will be excited about it, and it is important to him, and he will be going there with friends and he will be feeling the high energy adrenaline rush of performance. He will feel ALIVE. High. I know that he has been working hard on the performance. If I was still in his life I would be going to watch and support him. It was on my calendar when he broke up with me. I was invited. All of his friends that will be there were MY friends for the past six years. My closest friends. Friends I spent holidays and birthdays with and a few nights every week. Friends that he swiftly cut out of my life with that one screaming moment. Friends I didn't get a chance to say goodbye to. Friends I cry over and can't see anymore because they were his friends first. His circle. I have been cut out of all of that love and the things we used to do by the almighty HIM.

Now I am alone because I invested those years in him and those friends. And of course, he may have a girlfriend or love interest going to see him tomorrow night. She might have been lined up before my final discard. She might have been the one getting love and sex texts from him when he became mysteriously quiet with me in the last few months before he dumped me. She may be the person he was with when he disappeared on me those nights during our last month. She might be going home to his bed tomorrow night after the show. She may be there right now where I used to lay with him. Where I would definitely be right now if he had not broken up with me.

I don't know if this guy has BPD. But I do know that he has treated me HORRIBLY. Wonderfully and HORRIBLY. This dichotomy messes with my mind. I don't care if he has BPD. I don't care if he is all dark in his mind every day of his miserable life. I think he is a mean person that can't see past his own pain to recognize the intense pain he causes others. I WANT him to feel pain. I don't care if he is happy. I would rather he is miserable. That is how angry I am. This is how I am honestly feeling.

My latest plot is pretty tame in some ways. No one gets hurt. But also not mature, not high road stuff. Here it is:

I want to send him a text tonight or in the morning telling him that I will be making an appearance at his show tomorrow night so that he can say a kind word and offer a nice goodbye, as "surely he wouldn't want to end a nine year friendship/ love relationship by screaming in my face and following up with a horrible "of course we are broken up" text, followed by over two months of painful silence."

I want to send him that message.

I want to mess with his head and his emotions. I want to ruin his day and night. Instead of alive and elated, I want him nervous and looking over his shoulder. I want him to worry about how he will handle me there with his new woman. Or contemplate how my presence will embarrass him with his friends, or make it less likely that he will find a sexual partner from the women admirers in the crowd. I want to ruin the exciting, wonderful night he has planned.

It's the perfect plan because its not like he can avoid going to his own show. He will feel pretty vulnerable. He can't keep me from coming. He would have no power in this. I like that and it seems fitting.

I want to send him that text and ruin his night because of all of my nights- ruined by him. I think he deserves this and far worse. That doesn't really sound loving. Doesn't sound like I wish him the best, does it? I don't. It doesn't make me sound like a great person. Maybe I'm not. I certainly tried to be the better person and the loving and ever-forgiving person in that relationship. With all of my unconditional love.

I would send the text and hopefully cause him great anxiety. Then of course I wouldn't go. And he would know what I had done. And he would know I was angry.

i would burn my end of the bridge too.

In his mind he is likely telling himself lies. That I went NC right after the "of course we are broken up" text because I never really cared anyways. He will tell himself I am fine and that I have moved on. He will imagine I am so much happier now without him. That I am not hurting. He will not consider the damage he has done.

He has probably let himself off the hook. He was a coward who never had to say the words. He never broke up with me. He just ended things abruptly and faded away. Man, its hard to express all of these feelings on this board without profanity!

When I am not there he pictures me as a horrible monster. I want to BE that horrible monster and ruin his big, glorious night. He deserves this and far worse.

[EdR]

Although I do not like the thought of revenge, I do understand where you are coming from.

Just two other perspectives:

1) Practical: maybe you could do the hate/revenge kinda thing with someone else. Because the normal scenario would be something like: I rage, then you rage, then we both are approaching baseline again and may even have a somewhat normal ending conversatio. In the case with a pwBPD I'd say you would be playing with fire. I don't think the pwBPD would be approaching baseline that fast... .And whatever you can do to hurt them, they can do that much worse.

2) Principal: the most important perspective in my own situation. Why would you want to hurt someone you cared or still care about?  What makes us any different from them if you'd deliberately hurt them? You can't fight fire with fire.

[spacecadet]

I don't know you but there's no disrespect based on what you write. What you're feeling is utterly normal, and love and fury can coexist and often do.

Once after a painful break-up, going back 15+ years now, I was really angry with this man's hurtful behavior (cheating etc). I became preoccupied with thoughts of revenge. I bought a book with revenge stories. The funniest one was a woman who'd been married a long time, was the quintessential homemaker, cooking every meal for him, keeping a beautiful home, sewing etc. He left her for another woman and kicked her out of the house they'd shared for decades. So in her last week there, she bought several pounds of shrimp. She carefully undid the hem of every curtain in each room of the house, chopped up the shrimp into tiny pieces and sprinkled them on the hem and then sewed them back up, then re-hung them. When she left the house was immaculate. It took weeks for the new couple to figure out where the stench was coming from.

I loved that story. The thing is, reading the book helped me process the impulse for revenge and I was able to walk away with my dignity, forgive him and detach.

Back to you    What can you do that would help ease your pain? How would you feel about reaching out to these friends, who after all have been your friends for years, and without impugning your ex's character, enjoy their company and express a desire to continue the friendships? Maybe all won't feel comfortable out of loyalty to your ex (yikes!) but perhaps a couple really love you and don't want to lose touch with you either.

What other things can you do that help yourself that have nothing to do with him? What dreams do you have, passions, long-neglected hobbies that would nourish your battered soul?

[RomanticFool]

Hi Zemmma,

I am sorry you are experiencing such pain. There really is nothing like the powerlessness we feel when our previously close and loving partners turn on us and discard us. It keys into every issue we have around abandonment, low self-esteem and worthlessness. You are a loving and caring person who has had not one but two r/s break-ups and I empathise with the pain you must be feeling. But know this: you will get through it and you will be a better person for it. You will learn things about yourself and discover inner strength that you didn't know you had.

My heartfelt advice to you is this: Concentrate on you and not on your ex lover. His issues are his and you can do nothing about them. What you CAN do something about is your own pain and suffering. You say that you have a therapist and I am sure you have had much insight from working with them. What I especially urge you to do is avoid another high-octane emotional entanglement until you are in a place where you can emotionally deal with the slings and arrows of love and are strong enough to cope without leaning on the other person. I know that sounds counter intuitive but co-dependency is a feature of many of us on these boards and in my case I have had to disentangle myself from a very damaging love affair in order to get stronger.

You will get through this. Forget all thoughts of revenge towards your ex and focus on yourself. Anger is a healthy emotion and is also part of the grief cycle but it will pass. I am experiencing something similar myself in my break up from a long standing attachment. The best revenge is a life well lived. Concentrate on you and your needs. Be good to yourself. Focus on getting through each day in the best way you know how and the pain will gradually recede. Your ex lover has serious issues and the best thing he can do is leave you alone.

Keep sharing on here and you will find all the help and support you need. We are here for you, to support you.

RF

[WindofChange]

Hi Zemmma,

It's no wonder you want revenge, after the way he ended things. Wow, I just can't imagine your hurt and shock, after making love, for him to turn on you like that... .
I think it's natural and normal to go through a period where you think about revenge, and talking with your friends and laughing about how he'd react, etc. It doesn't make me lose respect for you at all. I think in a way that can be cathartic, dealing with your desire for revenge by talking about it and imagining the scenarios, for a while. Like others have said, it might not be a good idea to act on it. Obviously, we are dealing with people who often aren't rational, often react in extremes. He might decide to one up you in some horrible way.
Maybe talking about it is enough to get it out of your system, then you can continue the work of healing and letting go? Did it help to share it here?

[Zemmma]

Thanks for responding. You have all been very kind. I am so tempted to do this. I was asked why I would want to hurt him.

I actually think he needs to see and feel some of the damage he has caused. He walked away without having to say one word... without having to face anything. He gets to imagine I am fine with it. Because I said nothing. But he leaves a wake of destruction. He should have to look in the mirror. He claims to be such a sensitive person so how can he be so cold and insensitive? Before he left me he kept saying I was unhappy and I wanted to end things. I did not. I was happy overall. Happy to put up with his ups and downs. I am literally otherwise in a great place in my life. But he shouldn't be allowed to believe these utter distortions that he creates.

I want to hurt him because he should know what it feels like to be hurt. Maybe then he will stop hurting others. Maybe he will think of someone other than himself. Maybe he will treat someone with basic humanity.   

I didn't send anything and I didn't steal his shoe (ha!). And I don't currently have a therapist. I actually AM one (doctoral level). I know all about this and none of it makes things any easier. This is what I wrote but haven't sent:

"I am sure you wouldn’t want to leave me with the undue pain of a heartless exit; that to avoid being cruel and cold you would want to make sure that we parted ways with a kind word, or a sweet gesture... maybe a warm hug and a wish-me-well goodbye instead of just screaming in my face and then sending one text saying, “Of course we are broken up,” as though I should magically know a break up from an unexpected rage or argument, even though you promised me you wouldn’t... even though you never said the words on that day, moments after we had left your bed where we made sensual, passionate love.

I think I will drop by your show at the [XYZ Venue] tonight so you can have a chance to show me the kindness and respect and humanity that I know you would certainly extend to anyone as you end a nine year friendship/ loving relationship. I know you would take the time and loving care to do this for me as you recall how we were together through all of the good times and bad, sharing the heartbreak, supporting each other through difficult times, but also laughing and sharing the pleasure of food, music, shows, games, friendships, and those heavenly pleasures of the flesh. When you remember how happy we were to see each other, how we would anticipate our time alone and sometimes stare into each others’ eyes, grinning so widely like innocent teenagers. Kissing with a smile that could not be contained and surely felt a little silly but so wonderful because we were in love. When you remember the love of someone who was faithful to you despite your expressions of mistrust, and loved you deeply and unconditionally despite anything that happened; a person who demonstrated an unlimited and endless capacity for forgiveness even when situations were difficult; when you remember how much we did with and for each other every day, every week, for years; often hourly; the intense love and passion and raw sexual chemistry we shared and the utter crushing heartbreak and gut wrenching tearful long, honest talks of how much it hurt to be left so many times or to be apart in the past. I am sure you would want to make a loving space for the opportunity to express how sorry we both are for ever causing the other person so much pain when there was so much other-worldly affection and love between us and such a strong (although sadly, unhealthy) attachment bond.

I will see you tonight. It will give me a chance to say goodbye to the community of people that I spent the last few years with- birthdays, holidays, fun week and weekend nights, those friends that I miss and have grown to love that were also suddenly cut out of my life when you disappeared.

I am sure you will welcome the opportunity to give me a chance to say goodbye to you as well because you will want me to be able to move forward in my life with a sense of acceptance and peace and the knowledge that I once was truly loved by the person I loved the most. Because you care about me as a human being and know I have feelings despite your wish to end our relationship."

I OF COURSE will not go to his show. And I know the dangers of opening up the entanglement again. Especially fearful of his response that might be hurtful like, "I NEVER WANT TO SEE YOU OR TALK TO YOU AGAIN. GO AWAY, I HATE YOU AND WISH I NEVER MET YOU." That would hurt even more than this silence.

Still tempted though. And has it helped me to write it? I don't know. Probably not any more than the writing I do about it EVERY SINGLE DAY ALWAYS. It never gets easier, but I am compelled to do all of these things. I don't know how I will ever get over it.

Thanks for listening!

[randosomeday]

I like the shoe idea. 

[Cromwell]

Does he have BPD?

There was no point in doing anything revengeful to my ex, she would deregulate for awhile, maybe smash a few things but it actually would just be used as ammunition to validate that I really was the "bad person" making the black and white splitting all the more easier. Id give her an extra grudge that she could hold against me, with god knows how long an expiry date, and whatever id do would come back 10 fold.

Your not taking revenge on a normal minded person, remember that.

This is just a form of pain displacement, its a bit like where the husband shouts at the wife, the wife takes it out on the child, the child takes it out on the younger sibling. The original pain doesnt go away it just gets displaced, but in your case id see any action on your part just a way to be painted black by him and keeps a relationship going via hatred bond.

Be the mature one and rise above it, what he has done will hurt him in the long term by your not reacting to it. I got some forms of revenge on my ex, she saw it more as proof of how much feeling I had for her, in some ways she was right,

the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.

[Zemmma]

I know my letter comes off as quite stupid, and passive aggressive. It is!

Thank you randosomeday for liking the shoe idea! I think it takes a special sense of humour for that one.

Yes, yes, yes to everyone who recommends the high road. I know. I know. I know.

I have literally said and done nothing.

Does he have BPD? Who knows. Certainly the traits. He also shows remorse at times. And self-loathing. Tons of shame. He broke boundaries through spying, stalking, going through my phone, house, computer, closets. The whole love bombing and painting black (in cycles), the object permanency issues (if he saw me right now he would melt for me and say I look smaller and prettier than he remembers). When I am out of sight he develops a whole other persona for me- I am then "evil... " maybe a monster. When he sees me he can hardly contain himself, full with desire. So in previous breakups all I had to do was find him in this big city- then he was mine again. It's all very weird. His behaviour fits well here on this BPD board. He has a Cluster B personality disorder or C-PTSD. His thoughts are distorted but not always. He is gifted. Intelligent. A great listener and loved by many. He is a good friend. He is an alcoholic. He is super sensitive. He knows he is different. He worries it makes him weak. He cheated on his wife to get out of his marriage. He lies. He is jealous and controlling, and feels emptiness (like a shell) and has no trust of anyone because of a super painful past and deceitful mother.

I did not get my revenge. I wish I didn't know about the big performance tonight but I forgot to block his 'fan' page. It is blocked now.

I did not say or do anything. I hate that he thinks I just walked away. That I wanted this too. I hate that he left in such a cold and horrible way.

But. Maybe he knows. He must know. Maybe he will come to his own realizations again and maybe he will come to feeling regret for how he left, and apologetic on his own. I would like to see if that happens without me forcing his hand.

And I can't take whatever he may say in response to my contact. I am way too fragile. So he can think what he wants for now, and so will I.

I am so sad and lonely. I have to find a way through.

[Cromwell]

Hi Zemma,

I would often get what appeared on the surface as uncaring, glib replies, I expected far more.

My own belief is not that there is a true lack of understanding or emotion, but that it gets repressed away because they cant handle the magnitude of it.

Now if only I had could do the same I ask myself at times

I would sometimes admire - to a certain extent - how apparently 'cool' my ex could be when brushing off so many things that I felt strongly about. I learned in time that I never witnessed when words that I used caused her to punch every wall of the house when I wasnt there.

Just because on the surface it appears there is no suffering or shame going on, doesnt mean there isnt. I wouldnt even want my ex to fully have to embrace the amount of hurt ive been through - I know she wouldnt be able to handle it. Do you believe yours would?

[Zemmma]

Cromwell. I always enjoy reading your thoughts.

Could he handle it... ? No. I don't REALLY want him to feel pain. I think all of this means that I just don't want to feel this pain myself. I am just angry because he has been so careless with me. Really really angry for what he has done to me. He has been highly unfair. Unkind. And I don't care what disorder he has, he is well enough to be decent.

He can't handle much of anything. He gets physical pain from emotional pain. Pain in his chest, things that resemble a type of panic attack. He ruminates endlessly.

I guess don't really want him to be unhappy. I just want him to be happy with me.

But he is not. There is so much wrong with our relationship. And in past when he has broken up with me he told me he gets a relief from the pain. He starts to feel better.

He can't handle the intensity of pain OR love.

I need to focus on me again. Here we go... Got all that out. Weekends and holidays and alone time, all tough. My kids return tomorrow and I will be distracted. If I push it all too far away it comes back like new. I really don't know how much progress I am making.

[Cromwell]

Its really deep stuff Zemma.

progress is hard to measure when we are in the middle of it and it feels overwhelming, ventilation is progress - it is cooling down and blunting the sharpest of the hurtful experience.

The rest is a journey, mines felt like I kept making circular laps, reciting The Rime of The Ancient Mariner

distraction is fine but its not forging ahead on a new course in life, its just exactly what it says "distracted", which is better than ruminating.

[Zemmma]

He owes me nothing.

I have to stop thinking I can affect his feelings in some way.

He bowed out. He has been perfectly clear he wants nothing to do with me. He chose to take me out of his life and did not give me a final explanation or a shred of kindness. He decided it was over and didn't want to think or talk or deal with any of it anymore. At least not with me.

I have to stop expecting anything from him.

He is exercising his free will to walk away and be an uncaring person (to me). He doesn't respect me enough to be kind. He is surely looking in another direction because he couldn't find happiness with me. That is a fact. That I know. Whether he can find it anywhere else is his journey and his problem to deal with now and has nothing to do with me.

What else do I need to know? I can not allow this person back into my life at all or to influence my feelings with anything new from this moment on. He is a toxic and underdeveloped person. His values suck. He is self-serving. He is an extreme alcoholic. I can find a more suitable partner with whom I don't have to make so many sacrifices.

And I need to consider the fact that he really seemed to want to be in this relationship at times. Every time he went away he came back. Like 16 times! A part of him wanted this SO BADLY. But he struggled with it every time. It wasn't right for him. He couldn't trust in me or believe in us. He tried and couldn't do it. His brain was screaming NO even as he tried to work through his own demons. Even as I did cartwheels trying to show him my love. He couldn't ever be content with me. Always looking for something to devalue me and our relationship. He was fighting against his own instincts- trying to make it work. He couldn't make it okay for him, and I certainly couldn't do it for him.

He has made a choice for himself. I was much more calm a couple of months ago when he did this. As soon as he chose to leave I decided that I now had to choose the same. CHOOSE not be with him. CHOOSE not to want to be with a person who keeps breaking my heart. I need to choose this as well. Permanently. Because he has hurt me too much. Because there needs to be a limit of how much and how long someone so selfish and careless can hold onto my precious heart.

Another bit of letting go.

[Cromwell]

Hi Zemma

You will easily find someone, you are bright, educated and posts like these even infused with the primary emotion of pain as a conduit to feeling revenge, is so strong, you have cared deeply for him and that character and values there are going to be plenty of people who would cherish them.

He may have broken up with you, but 16 times getting back together, you know yourself the likelihood of him contacting you again to reconcile is very high statistically.

Every time I tried to leave, my ex came back like a boomerang. Thats what made it so difficult really, in some ways I was looking for the sort of 'discard' for lack of a better term, I had to engineer my own exit.

All I can say is that life goes on, but being decisive helped me the most, extremely difficult doesnt describe it, I still sort of think about her but it is restricted to grieving. If I had another relationship at the moment I probably wouldnt.

In the meantime, distraction is the best tool that I found after being decisive, extra hours at work, immerse into hobbies, friends, studying, heck, even in a quiet time id rather go and re-organise my sock drawer than train my brain to keep going over that same circular repetitive train of thought that is ultimately pointless for my future and wellbeing.

Chin up Zemma, itll be alright in the long run.

[Zemmma]

God I hope so Cromwell. I feel deep in grief right now.

But I am not depressed. I can still enjoy things and even go for a while without thinking about him too obsessively if I am doing something important or with others. But for a short while. Like a couple of hours...

You say your ex chased you after breakups, but that you were the one leaving. My man has always been the one to leave (or threaten to leave as in some of those 16). I am not sure he ever chased me except for the beginning. He would discard and yes, eventually contact me. But very tentatively. He would start reminiscing. Or say he hopes I am alright and better now that we are apart or something like that. Basically he would dip a toe into the water not stick his neck out if you know what I mean. It was always enough to get me back into a conversation, and eventually I would move into more of the pursuer mode. He was careful to protect himself. I was quick to jump and take the risks and be the fool. I was always the one trying to convince him that we were good together. He kept coming to the conclusion that the only grand times we had were when naked.

You seem so well! How long were you together and how long have you been out? We were together for six years with many breaks (some as long as 10 months or a year). We have been apart and silent for over two months.

As you have probably heard me say before I am not so much worried about finding someone, I am more worried that my involvement with this one will have permanently altered my ability to fall deeply for anyone else. I am afraid he has ruined me for others. I do want to fall hard for someone again. I hope he didn't break that part of me.

[Zemmma]

One more thing- Cromwell... you talked about the likelihood of him coming back... after so many recycles.

This is part of the trouble in detaching. It feeds my denial.

I keep thinking about long conversations that we will have in the future. What I will say. Because every other time he left he did come back.

He has trained my brain to think this is just another break. I feel like instead of truly moving on, I am just waiting. Waiting first for him to reach out to me in some way. Waiting for him to be mine again.

I should be healing, not waiting. This makes it even more difficult to detach.

[Cromwell]

You seem so well! How long were you together and how long have you been out? We were together for six years with many breaks (some as long as 10 months or a year). We have been apart and silent for over two months.

As you have probably heard me say before I am not so much worried about finding someone, I am more worried that my involvement with this one will have permanently altered my ability to fall deeply for anyone else. I am afraid he has ruined me for others. I do want to fall hard for someone again. I hope he didn't break that part of me.

Hi Zemma

when I say chased, it was the same that you describe. I was never overtly begged to come back but it was down the lines of, me changing my number for example, her messaging my family to get my new number then a text that was open ended. The sort of thing that signals, "i still want to be with you" but never being direct about it. Or I would get voicemails 2 weeks down the line that were of a "my life has collapsed come save me" style.

A big part of why I believe people like us feel the full brunt of the hurt is because we were the ones who always made ourselves emotionally vulnerable, had the courage to put our necks out and be forgiving enough to return each time. I suppose it establishes a well rehearsed pattern once it begins, after a few times a 'break up' is translated more into a lovers' tiff.

The thought process that runs through her is stuff like "i will never have a normal relationship", a lot of it is self fulfilling prophecy stuff, and its why it is so easy to reconcile each time. but eventuahlly I had to come to the point of realising, 'what' exactly am I reconciling 'to'? A relationship that has lost its meaning, at least to me. If I wanted to be a sugar daddy, I could go online and have the equivalent in a few minutes, minus all the emotional baggage.

I was with her 3 years, break ups about a dozen that I did each time, the most was a month where I just started to feel better and she stalked me as had no other way to contact me, I made a post about it. I think youve given me good insight by the breakups giving a form of relief, it is almost as if they are fundamental, they have to happen and a return signals a 'new beginning' of sorts. Like the relatonship gets a clean slate, each time there was a varying length of honeymoon period commence again, both sides on best behaviour and never a discussion of anything that had caused the break up in the first place. Just a shame that us humans have this pesky thing called repressed memories that dont get wiped clean each time right?

A lot of these posts and I recognise it from being in the same situation, even when there was no contact, a 'hope' that it was over, I still had this unease that I was more like Tom Hanks in the Terminal. Waiting, not actually moving on. That transition phase is where the thinking doesnt escape us, there is still latent hope, we dont move on because to do so means we are with someone else when the recycle offer comes through. Even if 2 months have elapsed, the call could come tomorrow, or next week, we havent really made a decisive choice to leave or even accepted that it is a true discard. Its more like taking statutory annual holiday leave from a job.

Im only doing better these days because I had to reconnect to find myself again Zemma, had to prioritise my values. My ex - via her condition - caused me a great deal of hurt and transgressed values I had held as important - I had to reconnect back to them to salvage my own self esteem. It would be the easiest thing to get back with my ex but it would be a road back to losing self respect that I have taken long to build back up. Thats what is important to maintain to go into a new relationship and not feel damaged or incapable of giving someone else a chance.

It might be the easiest thing in the world to go back with my ex, but the truth is, she wouldnt respect me for it. I proved my point to her with 9 months ghosted no contact and then after shortly getting back in contact I didnt become emotionally involved that im not going to be one of the many that lack a backbone to crawl back to a new cycle of pleasure/pain. Its just dreaming and folly to think each time it will be good times all the way next time 'round and I stopped being a sucker for punishment.

Zemma I plan my days the day before, ive got a full on schedule from when I wake up until I close my eyes - and this in the midst of 4 months 'holidays'. Each hour is productive, dedicated to self improvement, or im at work, meeting new people, hobbies. Its the sort of life I had before I got into a rut, I cant imagine sitting solemn and waiting patiently for the equivalent of 'god' to return. It frightens me that I had centred her so much into my mind as something metaphysical demi god status. I guess I realised when I got a chance that 'somethings terribly wrong with this', "its not right".

listened to intuition
from there everything else seems to fall into place itself, recovery accelerated and becomes easy.

[toomanydogs]

Hi Emma,
 First, I love the revenge story about the shrimp that spacecadet wrote about. That is really funny.
 Second, you could seriously be writing about my STBX and me. After he left, what I wanted more than anything was to "teach" him what he'd done by doing the same thing. The difference between us, is that I fully embraced the revenge fantasy, and I never thought it made me look any less than what I am. And I'd like to echo what everyone wrote here: I think it's a normal response.
  Who was it that wrote that the problem is people with BPD are not going to respond in a normal way.
  And I will admit to a certain amount of "revenge" that I did take on my ex. I knew he was on a dating site--a site pretty much for people looking for fast, kinky hookups. I got a fake profile and trolled him, suggested all sorts of kinky crap I'd do for him. He begged this fake profile of mine to meet up in his hotel room--a hotel I'd introduced to him and one he maintained not to like and never brought me to.
  I was pretty angry. And I felt perfectly justified in taking this "revenge."
  Did it make me feel better? I'd like to say it didn't, but it made me feel way better. I thought he had it coming. How he truly responded, I have no idea, but I do know that his begging my fake profile to meet up with him made me realize that our marriage was completely over and I was lucky to be out of it.
  I'm not advising one way or another regarding your own revenge fantasies, only to say I think they're normal. I did leave to fantasy the idea of breaking all the windows in his car--I had that particular fantasy very publicly with people at the house because he'd left his car parked at a diagonal in the driveway so no one else could park there, and he took the keys with him.
  In order to move the car so people could park, I had to get a new title then a new key ($110) and then move the car.
  Funny thing. I ended up scratching the car really badly, and I didn't do it intentionally. But there's no way my STBX would ever believe that I did not intentionally scratch his car because that's what he'd do.
  Anyway, I'm rambling. I loved reading this thread because what your ex did is exactly what mine did and my response--wanting to show him how much he hurt me by hurting him--is pretty aligned with your own.
 I also love your shoe idea.
TMD

[Zemmma]

I'm going to take this backwards...

Toomanydogs... What you did with the dating site would KILL me. KILL ME. I couldn't read his profile or even see a photo he posted, or hear him seducing a "stranger" like that for sex. Maybe because the bedroom was the one magical, heavenly place for us. I can't imagine, really don't think there will ever be anything like that for me. It was THE BEST I could possibly imagine. Seriously ridiculous. Damn.

I used to look at his facebook page or do other stalking and searching online when we were apart, but now I avoid that because it hurts too much. I love him too much. I have to remind myself all the time why I can't just contact him and talk to him. It doesn't seem like anything else really matters. Even though he keeps breaking my heart and has a distorted view and is an alcoholic... he is the one who has my heart. I curse the universe for making this happen to me. What a mistaken object for my deepest, undying affections!

Anyways, I am now out of the revenge mode. I think it came from the desperation of being alone last weekend and knowing he had that big happy social event. I'm slightly calmer now.

Cromwell... .wow. So much of what you said. Re: breakups to signal new beginning... .

I've been down this path so many times with this guy. I know his cycle. This is a problem. I know that now that he is outside of the r/s he will start to see his own part in everything. He will start to take responsibility for what he has done. He will know that he was projecting a lot of his own past and pain onto me. He could very well be over there sitting on his hands trying not to call me. But knowing that he should leave me alone, knowing what he does, is compelled to do over and over again.

When IN the r/s... .and it can last about a year for him at max... the angst, doubt, hopelessness, numbness all start to creep in for him. Slowly over time. And I feel him pulling away. But not just by retreating, also by becoming cold and mean and accusing in moments. A lot of seemingly unprovoked (or exaggerated) rage all directed at yours truly. And I ('lil old me) becomes the enemy. Not always, but sometimes. But like its under the surface and it slips out now and again. And everyone else is awesome! He says NEVER disagrees with anyone else but me! He claims he gets along so well with everyone else and has never had any problems before me! And over time everyone else's kids become a sacred miracle, and suddenly mine become little demons (when he never even saw them anymore), and EVERYONE needs protection... his sister, his daughter, his friend, the server at the bar... but never me. I become the opponent. He once accused me of withholding information for an extended period of time just so I could use it to hurt him at an opportune time. I said, "To what end?" and he said, "To get the upper hand! So you can have control." What? whaaaattt? I don't even know what that means? Are we in competition for a promotion? I thought we were in a love r/s... ? That concept is completely foreign to me. I have everything I need on my own. My own house, my own job, a father for my kids (their dad, my exh), money... I didn't need anything from him. I was only there for love. So why was I his opponent? Baffles... .

So yes. As all of those negative feelings mount in him and he repeats in his head and sometimes to me that we have no future, and we are messed up, and he doesn't "believe in us," and he doesn't feel right, and he doesn't feel happy, and he thinks we would be happier with other people, and he doesn't like the way we interact... as all of that builds up he begins to need time on his own. And he just stops talking about it because he knows I see it differently and he "can't just CBT it: think positive thoughts until they stick." He has bad dreams/ nightmares about me when I am sleeping beside him after we have had a loving night together. He needs time to process. He "goes dark." And he is fighting so hard to push everything down and just be okay enough, and keeping me arms length enough that we won't fight or have conflict. But maybe I say one little thing. Maybe I tease him because his hair is sticking up, or maybe I make a joke in front of his friends about his alcohol tolerance, or maybe I snap at him because I am drunk (trying to keep up with him and his friends) and I'm tired and I'm cold because its 3 a.m. and I just want him to get on the streetcar that is RIGHT THERE so I can go home and lie down after a full night out, instead of missing our ride so he can go back and hug that virtual stranger-friend from the bar (again). Anyways, one day he snaps and ends it. Actually he tries to get me to do it. He tries to tell me how unhappy I am in the r/s, because I am reacting to his bad behaviour, dwindling attention and mounting meanness or disinterest. And maybe I will say, "Actually I am happy with my life right now! I just want us to be good, because I literally have everything else that I want and I am HAPPY." Why don't you figure out what YOU need to be happy, and I will do everything I can to make that happen. Well nothing pisses him off more than that because why should I get to be happy when he is so conflicted and miserable all of the time? He much preferred me when I was a mess, coming out of my 20+ year marriage. Crying, unable to sleep, drinking, getting high on occasion, being crazy and irresponsible. But now that I am HAPPY... that must mean I have the upper hand!

When he leaves the r/s he feels the immediate relief and release of all of this inner conflict. He focuses on himself for a while. It is a little later that he will start to really look at himself again. And later yet, he will start to remember me. Mostly in terms of the sexual r/s we had. And that he remembers that in colour, moment to moment with almost impossibly accurate detail. But maybe he will remember ME for me as well. That I was kind. And fun. And that we could talk for hours. That we enjoyed each other's company.

Then maybe he could start again with me. After that time alone, maybe he can start to feel something again. Because maybe it always has to be new, because after some time things get real, and ordinary, or boring and he starts to feel numb (he said this) or empty, or "like a shell." He realizes I might expect things of him in a r/s and he doesn't want to be told what to do. He says he conforms to what I want until he doesn't recognize himself anymore (uhhhh... .he does... ? ya, NO! he really doesn't), but he is tired of trying to change in any way b/c its "just not worth it."

He told me that most of his r/s in the past lasted 1.5 years.

What I have to remember is he can't stay happy and therefore he won't allow me to stay happy. He can never stay. He always threatens to "run away." The one and only thing that keeps me from doing this again is the pain I feel during a breakup. For months... Forever. I won't forget this pain again. But if life stays dull and I don't meet anyone or find greater meaning than I have with him, what's to say I won't just get in there again for another 9 to 12 months of (sure, his angst), but also my happiest place. I can handle all of the bad stuff and disjointed thought and accusations (a lot of it happening between our visits on text) because it is surrounded by moments of love and affection and connection. What I have to remember is it won't last and we will end up at the beginning again. And we are running out of plays here... ways to get back in. We both feel embarrassed about it now. Shameful. We will both be stubborn. And I am angry too, that he could treat me like this, after treating me so well.

And whenever we go back we invest less into our lives. We don't want to involve other people. We become more isolated, just spending time alone. And this causes more problems.

Anyways Cromwell... .too tired to make this come full circle. Your post got me thinking of this cycle and the constant recycles.

The only other thing I was thinking was that towards the end I kept asking him if he was okay, or if he would talk to me. This made him angry. He said me asking if he was okay made him feel like he was weak, or like he was crazy or something. And he said we couldn't talk because we wouldn't agree and neither one would change our mind. "Please stop asking me if I am okay. It doesn't matter for ya." huh?

Latest reflections... sorry for the length of this post. Maybe some sounds familiar as I have found your stories to be.

[Cromwell]

Hi Zemma

Yours is just another to my collection of posts by other authors that I can add to my 'they have written my own experience for me'. It is uncanny.

Just like the situation I was in, infactuation is a very sensory overriding emotion, its evident throughout your posts.

How much do you feel that he takes it for granted that you will always take him back regardless of it, its been a considerable amount of recycles. How long would it go, what would it take before you feel "enoughs enough"?

I ask because my ex got to the stage quite early in the relationship where after the cheating she had 'diagnosed' me as a 'sure thing' in her life, her words were that we would be together forever. I didnt like it, it made me feel the opposite and it didnt feel rooted in romance it felt rooted in arrogance, possesiveness and her expectations. It made it easier for me to want to detach, to prove otherwise.

When you say it would kill you to see him doing such stuff, it could be the exact antidote needed to face reality. I built up my own little fantasy, comforting illusion with my ex, I overlooked intentionally all the faults and hurtful behaviour to the point of denying their existence. There is no way the relationship would have went on if I hadnt - in hindsight - it shouldnt, it was unhealthy repressions.

detachment was horrific when I took the rose tinted glasses off, they were more accurately, smashed off and I was forced to see my ex for who she was rather than the way I wanted to see her. Becoming more sober and not joining in with the alcohol and drugs seemed to help - a theme which you are going through as well. My ex was happiest to have someone who would "come down and waste away with me", as an alternative to someone who cared to help her to get better.

It becomes a choice at that juncture if you want to or not.

[Zemmma]

Well Cromwell... enough IS enough already.

So I think. So he thinks. But he's not exactly knocking so who knows how I would respond if he did?

Before the last recycle he emailed me out of the blue reminding me it was the 5 year anniversary of the weekend we first got together. It was Easter Monday. I thought he was gone, and hadn't even thought about the significance of the date. Within that note he had thanked me for opening his heart. That made me angry. Opening it for who? Obviously not me. But before I even read it... just seeing that he had written me when I thought he was gone. My whole body reacted. A wave came over me. I don't know how I can describe it but maybe something like dread. His effect on me is psychosomatic- extreme. I had to sit down.

Right now, I am sure he thinks on a logical level that he should leave me alone and leave this be. And one of the main reasons I don't want to contact him is I am very curious to see if that is it. Will he really leave it or will he contact me again? And if so, when? How long will it take? Or can he really just walk away silently this time and never say another word because he thinks it is better this way? And maybe it is. For me too.

He told me in the weeks before he left (in a text) that he hasn't been happy for years. All caps. But then I think, yes but before me was his marriage. He said he wasn't happy for the last six years of that. Then he met me and this rollercoaster began and he hasn't been happy for most of that. So 12 years of not happy. I started to think he just can't be happy.

When we were last apart for 9 months or more... he said he wasn't happy apart. That he was faking it for everyone else (so not confiding even in his friends or family). He said he was pretending to be okay but he wasn't. So whether in or out of the r/s he is always pretending to be okay. And all of the time he isn't.

His life went downhill after his marriage died. He ended up in a basement apartment that he hates. And lives pay cheque to pay cheque. I think he believes that if he finds a woman who will move in with him his quality of life will improve. With me he was stuck. He just couldn't pull himself out of the hole he had gotten himself into. I remember saying, if you were 20 you wouldn't say that you couldn't get enough money together to get a house in the next 10 to 15 years... why do you say it now just because you are 40? But he had given up on working for that, or thinking he could change anything for the better. He seems resigned to the life of a starving artist.

It didn't help that I pretty much have a mansion or at least a manor. Its a ridiculous house. Drove him crazy. He is a jealous person. He once freaked out and told me he couldn't hear about my renovation woes anymore. He thought I was insulting him somehow. My problems were not important because his were bigger (different). Anyway, I could never live with him. So he thinks he can find someone else that he can live with and they can share rent, and that would be an immediate upgrade to his life and living situation.

And that is probably true.

The fact that he thinks (in a very socially typical way) that love should lead to cohabitation and then marriage, was a huge problem for us. Because I could never live with him. Its something I knew early on. But not only that... I don't have an urge to have any man move into my house. I would prefer to be together but live apart. This house belongs to me and my teenage children. I seriously think cohabitation kills desire. Its unnecessary at this point in my life and not something I want.

Its more than infatuation with him. It full on love. I know this man inside out. The love is strong. Maybe we are talking about the same thing. But I see his faults and flaws too, I always have. It was just always worth it to me.

He really does find peace in a bottle. I want something more for my life. So at least for now the decision will be to stay away. He won't change. And as his daughter grows up and leaves, he will have even less reason to be sober. He drinks because it numbs the horrible reality he sees. I see life differently. I don't need any drugs to see the beauty in life.

I need to keep stepping away. As you said, its a choice. I have to keep choosing to believe there can be something better. Someone I can love this much who won't constantly hurt me.

[Cromwell]

Zemma, of course there is someone out there with the qualities you are looking for. Its a big world.

He is a grown man, you need to sever that surrogate umbilical cord. You have only one life to lead, this might have ticked so many boxes but is it really the complete fulfillment of love that you have yearned for. If you knew him inside out, you wouldnt be asking all these numerous questions.

He has done major boundary breaches, lied, spied on you, are you going to do the same as I did and just pigeon-hole it away as "oh, thats just because he has an illness". Youve helped him for 6 years, and he is still miserable, still taking his frustrations out on the very person who seems to care the most for him. Thats not fair on yourself Zemma, your needs to be happy and not feel this way anymore. He is miserable now, will that change by marrying him? Will it change in 10 or 20 years? How will it feel if you spend any more time pandering to his needs and somewhere down the line he comes across someone new that he focuses his mind to.

The reason my ex masqueraded as perpetually unhappy was because she learned as a child that to show she was self harming was a way that she finally got attention. What would happen to your ex if he did summon the strength to give up the drink. He would have very little excuses left for procrastinatig and coasting through life with his illness and needing someone to prop him up. by "someone" I mean just that, you might be financially better off and resourceful, but if he found someone with more, do you believe his love for you would over ride that? Im just asking because I asked myself that same question and I didnt like the answer.

Do you want to keep coming to this board and sharing stories of hurt and disappointment? I know I came to a point i didnt anymore but that was crucial to get to. From there it is easy sailing when a decisive choice is made. Part of that is not seeing any point in pondering about what she thinks of me - she is the past, an 'ex', who wasnt the right match even how much I wished she would have been. The irony is, i probably lost out on a far better one during that time, like I said, its a big abundant world out there, why have you settled for this when you want more/better and just have to go out and search for it.

[Zemmma]

You are right Cromwell.

My attachment runs deep. But you are right about all the boundary busting. And I probably don't know the half of it.

I think my boundaries are what got me the boot. I started holding tight to mine and he got frustrated and angry.

I am stuck in this aren't I? I have been ruminating endlessly, and then going back to him in my mind. At least I have not contacted him. But even that... that's letting him control the situation in a way. He ended it and I complied. Now he is silent and so am I. All that is fine if I am not in a holding pattern. The test will be if he contacts me again. Because I secretly think I want him to, even though I can't see a path back to him and the things I did love about this relationship. Its pretty hopeless. In moments of clarity I know I should never ever give him the time of day again.

I am worried that although my first reaction may be some kind of panic, I will be greatly relieved to hear from him again. I think I would be downright happy and I would imagine he cared. That is a dangerous thought.

Maybe this will fade with time. Clearly two months is not enough. Thanks for being so attentive. I am moving along with everything. I am just sad and that takes a lot of wind out of my sails. I know the world is a beautiful place, I just wish I didn't miss him and our r/s so much.

I have also thought about what i would do if I bump into him on the street. Can you believe two weeks into one of our break ups I actually kissed him? An honest to goodness, amazing kiss. He looked highly confused... Not this time. If I see him on the streets I am not inclined to even say hello. This time he gets nothing more than a cold shoulder and I will bolt in whatever opposite direction I can find.

[Cromwell]

Hi Zemma

Maybe, probably likely from our conversation, I felt unexpectedly very angry today about my ex and also the guy she cheated on me with.

I got revenge way back then, she also did her best to alleviate the hurt she caused. There really shouldnt be any real reason that 2 years afterwards id feel this way, but I do, it comes and goes but when it strikes it is like an overpowering wave. Then a few hours later once I rationalised it, realised it is just a deeply hurtful memory of the past, so much has changed since then, it went away. this is the problem though with memories of repressed anger that are not 100% dealt with from history, unresolved to a certain extent. I never properly confronted my ex about it - felt I couldnt - the relationship just continued with an open secret. I slept with her friends, I beat the guy up already. I tried to confront her but I could tell straight away that she wouldnt be able to handle that. In time I realised it was her impulsivity mixed with her disorder. No excuses at all, but the real anger I believe is rooted in my lack of handling the situation there and then in a way that I would have done now. Walked away, straight away.

I might miss my ex occasionally but by leaving I have guaranteed there wont be any more drama. Which the likelihood of it happening is extremely high. There is little point in "wishing" that our exs could "feel" the hurt that we do, they arent us and even if they were able to, it would only propel them towards shame (for a very transient moment) and then hate us for causing this. It is a lose-lose situation.

Just wanted to let you know that I can relate, and I still struggle with anger at times, but it has became far easier as time goes on. Its early days for you at the moment in your detachment, still with latent wanting to recycle if the opportunity arises. I cant fully blame my ex for "how I feel", but I do blame her as the source of the behaviours which caused me to feel that way. I dont want more of it and thats the simple reason why she is out my life permanently.