The Adventures of BeagleGirl

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hi all.  I've been pretty quiet on the boards the past few weeks for reasons that will be come clear below.

My therapist gets to hear about my (mis)adventures on a regular basis and recently made the comment that my life is like a sitcom.  I think it's had some drama flavor to it lately, but tend to agree.  I know that my favorite TV shows are not only entertaining, but also lead to some self reflection.  With that in mind, I present to you the latest episodes of "The Adventures of BeagleGirl".  This will be an extended episode.

For those of you just tuning in... .
BeagleGirl has been divorced from dBPDxh since the end of May.  dBPDxh is now granted only bit parts on the show since he's in negotiations to have his own spin off - "So You're Dating the Church Secretary".  I suspect the ratings will be poor because, really, haven't we seen that plot line more than once?

So the adventure continues with:

I went out to California to help my mom with grandma's funeral.  My grandma passed down to me a love of laughter and singing, often at inappropriate times.  Grandma loved people and she loved life, so the funeral was a celebration.  In fact, the funeral coordinator commented that she had never seen a family laugh the whole time their loved one's casket was being lowered into the grave, and it was one of the most beautiful things she had ever seen.  I inspired the laughter at that (inappropriate?) time by relaying the meaning of the straw and bell in the casket.  We could almost hear grandma laughing along with us.

I had some FOO drama to deal with while in CA.  I did some "truth telling" to my mom about dBPDxh's behavior towards me and our kids and it was well received and I feel like it helped both of us.  She now has some answers to the "why" of the breakdown of my marriage and some of dBPDxh's behaviors towards her and my dad (the timing of the beginning of his relationship with the church secretary coincided with him "ghosting" my parents).  I got to see a response from her that indicated that she wasn't going to try to shift the blame for dBPDxh's actions onto me (that's my dad's response) and she shared some things about my dad's treatment of her that makes it easier for me to see that his treatment of me speaks more to who he is than who I am.  That was solidified when my dad chose not to go to the funeral.  He has some health problems but admitted to my brother that he wasn't feeling that bad.  In my mind you support your spouse during something like this unless you are in the hospital.  I didn't get that world view from my dad.

I ended up sleeping overnight in the Denver airport as I tried to make my way from the funeral to a business trip in Nebraska.  That was quite the adventure.  I came home from the business trip exhausted then faced the need to euthanize one of my older dogs and help my younger son (who was still in California) deal with that grief long distance, not to mention dealing with my own. 

Then S15 got home from CA last Wednesday and I picked back up my "normal" schedule of work and parenting for the remainder of last week.  I nearly had him again this week because dBPDxh is moving into his new house and wanted me to keep S15 an extra week.  I have no objection to the extra time with S15, but dBPDxh has missed 3 custody weeks this summer and I am afraid S15 would start to feel like dBPDxh doesn't want him (which he kinda doesn't), so I expressed that concern to dBPDxh and strongly suggested he consider keeping the normal custody arrangement and letting S15 help with the move.

Yesterday was my last day teaching Sunday School at the church I've attended for nearly 14 years and that holds its own grieving process.  It's a bit uncomfortable continuing to attend a services there when dBPDxh is dating the church secretary.  The pain isn't eliminated, but is softened by the fact that I've found a new church home.  The past 6 weeks I have been teaching my Sunday School class then jamming to a different church for worship time.  The second church I visited really resonated with me on all levels.  I snuck out without talking to anyone the first week, but the second week the pastor was standing behind my chair when the closing song was over and invited me to join him and his wife for dinner that week.  They have been incredibly welcoming and caring through my grandmother's and dog's death and the services have continued to bless and encourage me. 

Now for the romantic(?) plot line:

Neighbor B has been divorced for about 4 years and has two kids - D11 and S9.  We've run into each other at neighborhood events over the years, but not much interaction to speak of.  Then last Thanksgiving he was out walking his dog while I was scrubbing the mildew off the foot bridge in my front yard.  We pretty quickly established that we were doing these unconventional things on Thanksgiving morning because our kids were with our respective exes, which confirmed for him that dBPDh was in the process of becoming dBPDxh.  He mentioned that it would be fun to go see a movie together, which I thought was a bit bold given my marital status, but could also have just been friendly.  I kept interaction to waving after that, but once my divorce was final decided Neighbor B might be a good person to talk to about the adjustments I was going through.  No spark for me, just "it would be nice to have a friend who has been through this".   Well, a few conversations in I decide that it might be fun to flirt a tiny little bit, and Neighbor B seems happy to comply.  He suggested dinner on a couple occasions, which could easily be construed as just "hey, our power is off in the neighborhood and we both need to eat, soo".  There was still not really a spark for me, and I wasn't sure I was ready for anything with anyone, so I dodged those offers with firm non-commitment. 

But then I started to feel that spark, and in clumsy BeagleGirl fashion I have managed to start to give clues that maybe I want to be chased after all.  Some of those have been highly entertaining to my therapist and friends, but I'll save those episodes for reruns. 

So now there's this blossoming "whatever this is" with Neighbor B.  He has been caring through this tough time, but everything could be construed as "just very friendly".  The day we euthanized our dog, after everyone else in the family was taken care of, Neighbor B offered to provide some distraction in the form of a trip to HomeDepot.  That turned into "Hungry?  Let's grab some food together." then "If you don't have plans for the evening I'd love for you to join me while I watch Black Panther at my place." then "I haven't watched Guardian's of the Galaxy Vol. 2 yet.  Wanna stay and watch it with me?"  We've found that we enjoy working on projects together (his thermostat, my bathroom vent fan) and there hasn't been a night in the past 2 weeks that we haven't ended with chatting while playing Words with Friends until one of us can't keep our eyes open and wishes the other sweet dreams.  We have plans to do another movie night at his place tomorrow and I've been invited to join him and his kids for Meet Me in St. Louis at an outdoor theater on Friday night.  I think I either have a very nice friendship or the start of something more going on. 

I'm trying to decide if I ask him what this is, or just wait for him to make a move that is clearly outside "friend" behavior.  I don't want to rush things by asking for a label, but I would like to have the conversation about how much involvement with his kids is comfortable for both of us if this might be more than friendship.  I think that he may be interested in something more, but taking things slow because he's aware of how recent my divorce was.  Or he's just a really good guy who recognizes someone who could be a good friend to him and his kids... .and really loves Words with Friends.  I think that I need to fight the urge to "control" the progression of this and give Neighbor B the opportunity to show who he is by setting the pace.  I also need to leave the parenting worries for HIS kids to HIM. 

Top that all off with a few montages of BeagleGirl training for a half marathon and spending each evening chatting/playing Words with Neighbor B and you're all caught up on The Adventures of BeagleGirl, and maybe understand why I've not made much time for bpdfamily lately.

Feel free to make suggestions to the script writers. 

[BeagleGirl]

Hi all.  I've been pretty quiet on the boards the past few weeks for reasons that will be come clear below.

My therapist gets to hear about my (mis)adventures on a regular basis and recently made the comment that my life is like a sitcom.  I think it's had some drama flavor to it lately, but tend to agree.  I know that my favorite TV shows are not only entertaining, but also lead to some self reflection.  With that in mind, I present to you the latest episodes of "The Adventures of BeagleGirl".  This will be an extended episode.

For those of you just tuning in... .
BeagleGirl has been divorced from dBPDxh since the end of May.  dBPDxh is now granted only bit parts on the show since he's in negotiations to have his own spin off - "So You're Dating the Church Secretary".  I suspect the ratings will be poor because, really, haven't we seen that plot line more than once?

So the adventure continues with:

I went out to California to help my mom with grandma's funeral.  My grandma passed down to me a love of laughter and singing, often at inappropriate times.  Grandma loved people and she loved life, so the funeral was a celebration.  In fact, the funeral coordinator commented that she had never seen a family laugh the whole time their loved one's casket was being lowered into the grave, and it was one of the most beautiful things she had ever seen.  I inspired the laughter at that (inappropriate?) time by relaying the meaning of the straw and bell in the casket.  We could almost hear grandma laughing along with us.

I had some FOO drama to deal with while in CA.  I did some "truth telling" to my mom about dBPDxh's behavior towards me and our kids and it was well received and I feel like it helped both of us.  She now has some answers to the "why" of the breakdown of my marriage and some of dBPDxh's behaviors towards her and my dad (the timing of the beginning of his relationship with the church secretary coincided with him "ghosting" my parents).  I got to see a response from her that indicated that she wasn't going to try to shift the blame for dBPDxh's actions onto me (that's my dad's response) and she shared some things about my dad's treatment of her that makes it easier for me to see that his treatment of me speaks more to who he is than who I am.  That was solidified when my dad chose not to go to the funeral.  He has some health problems but admitted to my brother that he wasn't feeling that bad.  In my mind you support your spouse during something like this unless you are in the hospital.  I didn't get that world view from my dad.

I ended up sleeping overnight in the Denver airport as I tried to make my way from the funeral to a business trip in Nebraska.  That was quite the adventure.  I came home from the business trip exhausted then faced the need to euthanize one of my older dogs and help my younger son (who was still in California) deal with that grief long distance, not to mention dealing with my own. 

Then S15 got home from CA last Wednesday and I picked back up my "normal" schedule of work and parenting for the remainder of last week.  I nearly had him again this week because dBPDxh is moving into his new house and wanted me to keep S15 an extra week.  I have no objection to the extra time with S15, but dBPDxh has missed 3 custody weeks this summer and I am afraid S15 would start to feel like dBPDxh doesn't want him (which he kinda doesn't), so I expressed that concern to dBPDxh and strongly suggested he consider keeping the normal custody arrangement and letting S15 help with the move.

Yesterday was my last day teaching Sunday School at the church I've attended for nearly 14 years and that holds its own grieving process.  It's a bit uncomfortable continuing to attend a services there when dBPDxh is dating the church secretary.  The pain isn't eliminated, but is softened by the fact that I've found a new church home.  The past 6 weeks I have been teaching my Sunday School class then jamming to a different church for worship time.  The second church I visited really resonated with me on all levels.  I snuck out without talking to anyone the first week, but the second week the pastor was standing behind my chair when the closing song was over and invited me to join him and his wife for dinner that week.  They have been incredibly welcoming and caring through my grandmother's and dog's death and the services have continued to bless and encourage me. 

Now for the romantic(?) plot line:

Neighbor B has been divorced for about 4 years and has two kids - D11 and S9.  We've run into each other at neighborhood events over the years, but not much interaction to speak of.  Then last Thanksgiving he was out walking his dog while I was scrubbing the mildew off the foot bridge in my front yard.  We pretty quickly established that we were doing these unconventional things on Thanksgiving morning because our kids were with our respective exes, which confirmed for him that dBPDh was in the process of becoming dBPDxh.  He mentioned that it would be fun to go see a movie together, which I thought was a bit bold given my marital status, but could also have just been friendly.  I kept interaction to waving after that, but once my divorce was final decided Neighbor B might be a good person to talk to about the adjustments I was going through.  No spark for me, just "it would be nice to have a friend who has been through this".   Well, a few conversations in I decide that it might be fun to flirt a tiny little bit, and Neighbor B seems happy to comply.  He suggested dinner on a couple occasions, which could easily be construed as just "hey, our power is off in the neighborhood and we both need to eat, soo".  There was still not really a spark for me, and I wasn't sure I was ready for anything with anyone, so I dodged those offers with firm non-commitment. 

But then I started to feel that spark, and in clumsy BeagleGirl fashion I have managed to start to give clues that maybe I want to be chased after all.  Some of those have been highly entertaining to my therapist and friends, but I'll save those episodes for reruns. 

So now there's this blossoming "whatever this is" with Neighbor B.  He has been caring through this tough time, but everything could be construed as "just very friendly".  The day we euthanized our dog, after everyone else in the family was taken care of, Neighbor B offered to provide some distraction in the form of a trip to HomeDepot.  That turned into "Hungry?  Let's grab some food together." then "If you don't have plans for the evening I'd love for you to join me while I watch Black Panther at my place." then "I haven't watched Guardian's of the Galaxy Vol. 2 yet.  Wanna stay and watch it with me?"  We've found that we enjoy working on projects together (his thermostat, my bathroom vent fan) and there hasn't been a night in the past 2 weeks that we haven't ended with chatting while playing Words with Friends until one of us can't keep our eyes open and wishes the other sweet dreams.  We have plans to do another movie night at his place tomorrow and I've been invited to join him and his kids for Meet Me in St. Louis at an outdoor theater on Friday night.  I think I either have a very nice friendship or the start of something more going on. 

I'm trying to decide if I ask him what this is, or just wait for him to make a move that is clearly outside "friend" behavior.  I don't want to rush things by asking for a label, but I would like to have the conversation about how much involvement with his kids is comfortable for both of us if this might be more than friendship.  I think that he may be interested in something more, but taking things slow because he's aware of how recent my divorce was.  Or he's just a really good guy who recognizes someone who could be a good friend to him and his kids... .and really loves Words with Friends.  I think that I need to fight the urge to "control" the progression of this and give Neighbor B the opportunity to show who he is by setting the pace.  I also need to leave the parenting worries for HIS kids to HIM. 

Top that all off with a few montages of BeagleGirl training for a half marathon and spending each evening chatting/playing Words with Neighbor B and you're all caught up on The Adventures of BeagleGirl, and maybe understand why I've not made much time for bpdfamily lately.

Feel free to make suggestions to the script writers. 

[Insom]

I hear a lot of speculating here about what you think he may want, but not much about what you want out of this aside from enjoying the flirting and attention.

What do you want with Neighbor B?  I know you've considered the complications re: your kiddos.  How do you feel today about more with Neighbor B?  What are the potential outcomes and impacts?  Do you like those outcomes?

[BeagleGirl]

What do you want with Neighbor B?  I know you've considered the complications re: your kiddos.  How do you feel today about more with Neighbor B?  What are the potential outcomes and impacts?  Do you like those outcomes?

I think my foremost goal with Neighbor B is friendship.  I am enjoying the companionship and banter and, yes, the attention.  I really enjoy time with him and with his kids.  I'm enjoying the process of getting to know each of them.

But I am finding myself also wanting more.  There's the physical component of it.  I want him to touch me (he does so in a non-sexual way pretty freely) and I want him to kiss me.  I'm not looking for sex with him any time soon.  I want to give my heart before I give my body, and I know that I have a ways to go before I could reasonably trust him with my heart.  But a little making out sounds nice.   

And there's the type and level of intimacy that you get with someone you see as a potential mate.  The discovery and "knowing" is different than with a friend.  I have friendships, both male and female, that are very intimate, but it's different with a potential romantic partner and I miss that.

Then there's the potential for long term partnership.  I'm not making any plans or spending much time dwelling on the future, but there are sometimes glimpses of what it could be like to live life with Neighbor B.  I believe in life long friendships but, again, it's different living life with someone day in and day out.  I would like to start to explore building that with someone.  Neighbor B may or may not be that person, but I think I want the experience of defining what I want in a mate and measuring him against that and having that process reciprocated.  I'm hoping that we can take things slow enough that we have a chance at maintaining a friendship even if we decide we're not suited for each other romantically, and have some fun along the way.

So I guess the outcome I'm hoping for is to the experience of getting to know Neighbor B and getting to know myself better as we figure out what we want with each other.  Obviously, things could go poorly and either or both of us could end up hurt, but I think I'm willing to take that risk.

BG

[Mustbeabetterway]

BeagleGirl,

You are too funny!  I often see my life as a sitcom, too.  Sounds like you successfully dealt with your FOO stuff.  Congratulations on that!

Interested to hear how things go with Neighbor B. 

Mustbe

[Turkish]

Speaking as a guy,  "he obviously likes you." Speaking as a guy, "the ball's on your court."

You've stated what you want and need.  What's healthy and realistic at this point,  however? Can you take it slowly?

[once removed]

neighbor b aside, thats a lot of grief on your shoulders.

how are you holding up BG?

[BeagleGirl]

neighbor b aside, thats a lot of grief on your shoulders.

how are you holding up BG?

I'm actually holding up pretty well.  on't take that to mean that I'm feeling great.  I'm crying pretty regularly and acknowledging the anger I'm feeling and taking time to feel the losses.  I'm leaning on my friends and therapist.  I've learned that "count your blessings" doesn't get rid of the hurt, but it does remind me of the resources I've been given to deal with the pain and what I have to look forward to on the other side of it.

Now for the latest episode of The Adventures of BeagleGirl.  This one is all about Neighbor B.

Neighbor B spotted a rainbow when taking his daughter shoe shopping on Monday and sent me a picture.  That kicked off texting back and forth as we each ran our individual errands and did stuff around our respective houses.  A whine from me about the fact that I really wanted a McDonald's ice cream cone but their machine was down resulted in an invite to have dessert with him and his daughter.  While I was there, his daughter was relating some of her dad's routines and mentioned his vitamin.  That led to him sharing that his "vitamin" was Paxil and that he needed it to treat anxiety.  He elaborated on his struggle with anxiety for both my sake and his daughter's, as I later learned that he has concerns that his daughter may be prone to anxiety.  When I got home and he re-initiated our text conversation I thanked him for sharing so openly and let him know both that I admired his openness with his daughter and that I understood, at least in part, his struggle with anxiety and had been on meds for anxiety and depression for a period of time.   We went on to other, lighter topics, including plans for Tuesday night; dinner at my place followed by a movie at his.  

We had some really good conversation over dinner.  We shared some more of our respective experiences with anxiety and the treatment thereof.  We shared our respective "This is how my marriage ended and where I am now" stories.  He asked a lot of questions about how my S15 has been dealing with the divorce and dBPDxh's moving on so soon and shared how he dealt with the same sort of situation with his kids.  This was where I started to get the feel that he had questions about my readiness/availability for anything more than friendship.  More on that later.

We went over to his place and talked a bit more before starting the movie and at "intermission" while taking his dog out for a potty break.  While watching the movie we quickly settled back into arms lightly touching, this time from shoulder to finger tip, and he was gradually leaning in a bit more over time.  I was reciprocating  with my own leaning in, but tried to just match his level, not push it further.  Surprisingly, I was able to relax and enjoy the movie.  It wasn't until I got back home and we were texting back and forth again that the confusion and desire to know what this was got the better of me.  So I texted the question "What is this for you?" and my phone started ringing.

We had a very good conversation.  Before we started "hanging out" he had decided to take a break from dating.  Our "whatever this is" has had him reconsidering that, but he also has been uncertain about my readiness for and interest in dating him.  He also feels that we could have a really good friendship and it would be a shame to endanger that by rushing into anything more.  He said he's been proceeding with a lot of (maybe too much) caution, but knew that he had been "leaning in" both literally and figuratively and understood my confusion.  He said he probably should have initiated this conversation earlier.  He then went on to express all the (very legitimate) concerns he has had about me and my readiness to date.  Some of them had been addressed by things I had shared that night, and some he feels like he needs to know me longer/better to address.  

Ultimately he wants to honor his decision to take a break from dating.  He didn't give a specific timeline, but knowing him I know he has a date in mind.  I suspect it coincides with the end of a big project he has going at work.  That doesn't mean that he'll be ready to date ME at that point, but he'll have had another 2 months of observation and progression of friendship at that point.  

So in the meantime we are working on establishing boundaries to limit the confusion we've both been feeling about whether this is friendship or something more.  We're discussing what level of interaction between me and his kids feels comfortable at this point in time and how that might change if we decided to explore something more down the line.  I'm committed to ending any flirtatious behaviors and asking him to limit physical touch to what would be natural for friends and not compliment my appearance (he told me I'm pretty towards the end of our conversation and that is hard for me to hear from a man without construing it as "romantic".  Stuff like that.

So we'll see if we can put the cat back in the bag and work on forming a friendship without reference to what more we might want in the future.  I know it will be a challenge, but if we can do that I have more hope for maintaining a friendship regardless of whether "something more" is in the cards for us.  I have to say that I developed a new level of respect for him after that conversation.  Both the fact that he was thinking through legitimate concerns and watching for specific red flags with me AND the fact that he was willing to have a candid conversation with me showed a level of emotional intelligence that I really appreciate.  Then there's the fact that he is willing to delay gratification and hold to a personal commitment.  I think Neighbor B is someone who is worth having as a friend and if we never decide to explore the "something more", that decision will have been made with someone I am coming to respect more the better I know him.

Any thoughts on how to manage the mutual interest in something more than friendship down the road that's now out in the open?  I'm trying to shift my mindset away from that possibility and think it may take a bit of time and some mindfulness during and around our future interactions.  Any tips would be appreciated.

BG

[Insom]

There's a fun and breezy quality to your posts about Neighbor B that Mustbeabetterway and your T have both noted with the sitcom analogy.  I know I've said this before, but I bet it feels great to get this attention from Neighbor B after all you went through with your ex.

Any thoughts on how to manage the mutual interest in something more than friendship down the road that's now out in the open?  I'm trying to shift my mindset away from that possibility and think it may take a bit of time and some mindfulness during and around our future interactions.  Any tips would be appreciated.

If I recall, Skip suggested in another post that a relationship with Neighbor B sounds potentially fraught because of your existing connection as neighbors with kiddos in the mix. 

How do you feel - for now while neither you nor Neighbor B sounds ready for anything serious - about meeting and dating someone easier?  How does the idea of going on some practice dates sound while you get used to receiving flirty, positive attention again?

[BeagleGirl]

How do you feel - for now while neither you nor Neighbor B sounds ready for anything serious - about meeting and dating someone easier?  How does the idea of going on some practice dates sound while you get used to receiving flirty, positive attention again?

Great question.  When I started feeling like I would be open to dating Neighbor B one of my best friends suggested that I get on a dating website and start looking.  She's a big proponent of having more than one "horse in the race".  I see the value in that, so I signed up.  I've had a few message exchanges, but I've stayed pretty passive and only responded to what seems like genuine interest from someone I would be interested in.  I'd say it's been quite an education.  I could probably do a whole "episode" on my brief and limited experience so far.

I signed up for a wine tasting hosted by the dating site I'm on.  It's Saturday night.  I'm keeping my expectations low.  There's only been one guy that I thought I could click with and we found a deal breaker early on and agreed to move on before even suggesting a meeting.  I figure I'll get to learn more about wine (something I'd like to do even if it wasn't a single's thing) and maybe get some of that "fun, flirty attention" you mention.  

I will admit that today I'm feeling somewhere between frustrated and angry.  Neighbor B stopped by yesterday and confirmed that our plans are still on to attend the outdoor theater on Friday.  He looked me in the eye and said "Nothing's changed".  I let that go and did my best to have our "normal" interaction via text and Words With Friends chatting later that evening, but the fact is that something HAS changed.  Maybe not for him, but it has for me and I'm feeling off balance.  I don't regret asking him what this was for him.  I regret that I wasn't prepared for this contingency.  I figured I would either get "I really don't see you in that way.  Let's just be friends." or "I really like you and would like to explore something more, but I think we should take it slow."  His response was actually more revealing and "better" than either of those options, but I'm not sure how to deal with it yet.  I'm not sure how to ignore the potential for something more now that I know there IS interest.  

I know I'll figure this out, and I feel he's worth making the effort to do so, but I think I'm shifting from wanting to respect his desires and feelings to wanting to know and respect my own.  I'm thinking about talking with him about this tonight so our first real interaction after "the talk" doesn't involve his kids.  I want him to know that these are my feelings and I'm not asking him to "fix" them, but if he really wants to be my friend then I shouldn't be hiding "bad" feelings from him.  I have an appointment with my T today, so I'll have the opportunity to discuss all of this with her before potentially talking with him.  

As confusing and frustrating as all of this is, I know that it's a tremendous opportunity to learn and grow.  I think my biggest challenge is to recognize what is part of who I am and should be valued as such and what are unhealthy behaviors/patterns that need to be addressed.  That's why I pay my T the big bucks.  

[formflier]

Hey BG... .I rarely post over here, yet I've followed your story for a while and I'm still rooting for you!    

My number 1 concern is quoted on top.  I've heard some about it and it does seem like you are working through it.  I kinda think I'm in the last half of my grieving process for several things... .it's gone on a lot longer than I thought.  Like you... I've been guided by a T.

I'd like to see more focus on deliberate care for your feelings, especially since you have so many others to care for.  

neighbor b aside, thats a lot of grief on your shoulders.

how are you holding up BG?

Speaking as a guy,  "he obviously likes you." Speaking as a guy, "the ball's on your court."

Turkish summarized it here and as I read the entire thing... .I keep seeing the guy "put it back in your court".  I also am seeing a guy being patient and wise.  

Said another way... .I'm not seeing him pester you to "quickly toss it back".

That being said, I think you should give it a week and directly address the issue again.  I would encourage you to stay in your heart and out of that "overthinking" head of yours (all the details about limiting touch, compliments... etc etc).

What would I think that look like/sound like?

"Hey neighbor B... .I hope you have a few minutes to listen and then take a while to consider what I share".  (then describe your "feelings journey" up until now).  Then talk about how you are working through a lot and you want to respect his work on being ready to date.  Then finish it off by saying... ."if I was ready to date right now... .I would want to date you."  I'm hoping I'll feel the same way in a few months.  Can we keep things going as is right now and check in with each other (pick a date or milestone a couple months out)?.  

I hope this could help both of your focus on the now and the friendship without worrying about "should I bring up... .?"  Also provides you time to sit with your heart and your head for a week or so before that future date.

Thoughts?

FF

[BeagleGirl]

I would encourage you to stay in your heart and out of that "overthinking" head of yours (all the details about limiting touch, compliments... etc etc).

FF,
I think you have been talking to my T. 

BeagleGirl's MO - 1% "I feel", 99% "What I need to do about what I feel". 

Okay, well maybe I'm closer to 10%/90%, but my T is encouraging me to spend more time feeling and less time acting on those feelings.  She's right, and so are you. 

When I look at my heart, I know that Neighbor B won a piece of it by being the kind of guy who could look at me and say "You're probably not ready and I want to wait until you are.  I am probably not ready and I don't want to risk our hearts until I know where mine is."  That's what I want in a man, but it's so foreign that I don't really know how to respond to it.  I don't know how to trust that.  I fear that if I don't enter into some level of commitment, he will go away.  I feel like he's trying to show me that's not true, but that doesn't mean I don't have that fear.  The key is to feel the feeling but not give in to the desire to act on it.  I need to remember that time does not cost me anything and he's offering the gift of friendship while I take that time.  Easier said than done. 

So I'm trying to feel the feelings for a while before taking any action and looking forward to tomorrow night with him and his kids.  When we're together I don't feel these doubts.  It's just when I'm alone with my thoughts... .Where IS that overthinking switch?

BG

[formflier]

To continue my thought/plan... .after a few months of letting him know that you want more but aren't ready... .well... .we all know it's rare in life that you "feel ready"

Looking off the high dive

Peeking out of the open door of the airplane (yeah... I've jumped  a few times)

And similar things in relationships where you wonder... .is it time to take the leap.  Sometimes... you just have to jump.

It's doubtful you'll ever "Know" that it's the right time (again... us overthinkers).

So... .be deliberate about waiting, and then unless you can come up with a really... .really... .really good reason to wait longer (seriously... something specific... not just a feeling)... .well, I'd be pushing you just as hard to jump.


OK... .this could be a really odd analogy or you could totally get my point.  Depends if you like Westerns.  If you do... then of course your favorite is Lonesome Dove.

Gus focused on living... .and perhaps for you getting back in a relationship is like chasing buffalo again... .

https://youtu.be/V4fFvgwjtqo

It's not practical, I'm sure you will always be able to come up with reasons it might not be wise... .

For now... watch from safety... .but soon, give them a chase.


FF

[Cat Familiar]

Hey BG,
I've got to say I'm bowled over by what a great guy Neighbor B is turning out to be. Wow!

And take your time. Sit in comfort of not knowing. What will be will become soon enough. He sees what a delightful woman you are. Breathe.

Cat

[BeagleGirl]

Today's episode is pretty packed.  So pop some popcorn and get the tissues ready.

I don't think I went into detail on the FOO stuff I've been dealing with, so here's a little background.  My dad has a degenerative disease that has left him unable to speak.  My dad's voice, both speaking and singing, has been a big loss this year.  And it makes it more difficult to hold a conversation with him.  His illness has also left me with the fear that if I try to confront the issues in my relationship with him that he will shut me out and then die and then I'll have lost even the semblance of relationship with him in the last years of his life.  I'm starting to recognize that my dad uses some of the same tools that dBPDxh did, and withholding affection and blame shifting are biggies.  Well, I found out from my mom that dad thinks I have been seeing someone the past 18+ months; that I left my husband because I wanted to be with this man.  My dad knows about my affair, so I can understand to some extent why he would suspect that, but it was incredibly hurtful to know that he believed that of me and didn't bother to verify it.  I also feel like he should know me better than that.
 I've been pretty angry about his assumptions and the way he's treated me since I separated from dBPDxh.  I have also been angry about the fact that he chose to not attend my grandma's funeral, leaving my mom to grieve alone.  He used his illness as an excuse, but he has been able to rise to the occasion when he wants to.

My dad has been pretty silent since I left California, but when I posted on FaceBook about my dog dying he commented "Sorry about your doggie".  He didn't text me.  He commented on FaceBook.  Then when I updated my profile picture he commented on that "I like my new pictures too".  I don't understand those choices.

Then last night he texted asking for my son's phone number and complaining about how my mom just isn't motivated to do stuff around the house (DUH!  She just lost her mom and is dealing with all the estate stuff.)  He ended with "Love ya".  I sat on that text overnight and responded this morning with "I love you to, but I'm pretty angry with you now as well."  I briefly explained that I'm angry because he didn't attend the funeral and that left mom alone and also took away the opportunity for me to have conversation with him.  I invited conversation via text/email if he felt like he was ready.  His response was that I don't see how my mom ignores and rejects him and then he started talking about how I hurt him by divorcing dBPDxh and not seeking his advice and guidance and I made a big mistake but he's just got to accept me as I am.  That dBPDxh and I are moving on with our lives and he won't be around much longer and his only wish is that my brothers and I love each other. 

I haven't responded to his text per se.  I asked for time to think about it, but wanted to clear one thing up.  I wanted him to know that if by "moving on" he meant other relationships, then he probably had heard from mom about dBPDxh dating the church secretary but that I had not "moved on" in that way.  That there was no other man before or after my affair and that I didn't leave dBPDxh because I wanted something with someone else.  His response to me was more FOG and I'm not ready to respond to that yet, so I halted the conversation. 

I cried A LOT today.  I have been doing as my T suggested and focused on feeling my feelings, and that conversation with my dad brought up a lot of feelings of loss and anger that the men in my life (dad and dBPDxh) who should have loved have failed me and "left" me.  I felt the loneliness of facing the recent and anticipated losses in my life on my own.  I felt the fear that Neighbor B would be yet another man who would leave me.  I felt the anger at God for allowing me to get pregnant and then miscarry three times in one year and then not allow me to understand WHY?  I felt anger at myself for not knowing how to allow God to be close enough to comfort me.  I sat with a lot of pain today.  It sucked, but I think I need to do it more often.

So now for the continuation of the Neighbor B plot line... .
He had invited me to attend an outdoor theater with him and his kids tonight.  I asked if he wanted dinner before hand and he said that would be great.  I know what his kids like to eat and offered to prepare their favorites and allow them to help in the preparation.  We had a blast.  Neighbor B seemed a bit nervous about his kids possibly breaking something or behaving rudely, but I tried to reassure him that I wasn't worried and he shouldn't be either (okay that was a bit invalidating, now that I think about it).  Other than that, we had great conversation all around.  I felt just as comfortable with him as I have in the past, with just a slightly higher awareness of the boundaries we've set, and it didn't feel like the kids were along on a date because they were just as involved in the conversation. 

So then we get to the theater.  He has connections and we parked practically at the entrance to the theater and had amazing seats.  I wasn't sure if I would sit next to him or if we would keep the kids between us, but I was the last one into the row and the kids had taken the two seats at the end, leaving the seat next to their dad open.  The interaction during the musical was probably pushing a boundaries a tiny bit (I really do have a hard time not flirting, and he really isn't so hard of hearing that he would need to lean that close to me when I made comments) but felt natural.  His son ended up wanting to sit next to his dad after intermission, so we had both kids between us for the second half, which was fine.  We had good conversation on the drive to and from the theater, but his daughter and I also sang along to the songs he was playing at his daughter's request.

Now for the BeagleGirl twist.  We saw Meet Me in St. Louis.  Neither of us had ever seen it before and I DEFINITELY didn't know the primary romantic plot line.  For those of you out there who are just as unfamiliar with it, the female lead (played by Judy Garland in the movie version) is pining for and hoping to be noticed by HER NEIGHBOR.  She sings, repeatedly through the musical "I adore the boy next door".  Let me tell you, BeagleGirl was probably beet red for a good part of the musical.  I have no idea if Neighbor B's thoughts were of the same ilk as mine, but I felt like the only thing that was lacking for my pure embarrassment was for the male lead to be named Neighbor B. 

Despite the slight embarrassment, I thoroughly enjoyed the musical, and Neighbor B said he did as well and was really glad I was able to come.  The kids were tired, but they also said this was their favorite musical of the season.  So a good time was had by all.

I'm keeping myself busy tomorrow.  I want to give Neighbor B a little space and time to think his thoughts and  maybe feel his feelings (if men actually do that sort of thing).  I've got 7 miles to wog for my half marathon training, lunch with my T (she has a daughter going into my field and asked if I would be comfortable talking with her about it) then the wine tasting organized by the dating site I'm on.  Oh, and one of the guys on the dating site that has expressed what I feel is an appropriate level of interest has asked if we can have a phone conversation this weekend, so that may happen tomorrow as well.  I don't know if this guy will be a recurring character, or just an extra, but we'll call him "Cat Guy".  He has cats, and I brought that up as a potential issue (I'm highly allergic) but he said he'd never let a pet stand in the way of a relationship.  Quite honestly, I'm not all that interested in dating anyone but Neighbor B at this moment, but I'm going to follow my friend's advice and try to avoid allowing this dating thing to be a "one horse race". 

Right now I feel pretty comfortable with "feeling my feelings but resisting the urge to act on them" with Neighbor B.  I like him.  I'm not going to try to stop liking him or deny (to myself) that I like him.  I'm going to feel that "like" but still work to honor our boundaries.  If only it wasn't so darn easy to flirt with him. 

Well, I need to head to bed.  I will definitely be having sweet dreams tonight.   

BG

[formflier]

  I don't understand those choices.

 

Don't overthink it... .

He "reached out"... .certainly in a way that you don't understand... but still he reached out.

FF

[BeagleGirl]

Today would have been my 23rd wedding anniversary.  This is the first time that I am "celebrating" that this date isn't supposed to mean the same thing.  I now have a divorce date that marks the start of my new marital status

I have to say that I'm still in this "pain" mode and I'm not really sure where the pain is coming from today.  I think that some of it is coming from the occasion to remember that day 23 years ago when I thought I had the promise of lifelong love and being cherished, but the pain seems to be all mixed up today.  I'm fighting the urge to focus it in the area where I feel like I have the most "control" to do something about it - Neighbor B.  I think it may help to list out my pains.  They may get thrown in a box and jumbled all together again, but maybe unpacking them for a bit will help.

1-My relationship with my dad.  We corresponded via text yesterday.  I think the "theme" we've settled into is that he is hurt that I didn't reach out to him for help in my marriage and he feels like all this pain could have been avoided if I'd just done so.  He made the statement "I have spent my life helping others with their problems.  I'm here for you whenever you're ready."  My response was "I think you need to remember that I'm not 'others'.  I'm your daughter.  Helping me does not equal loving me."

My dad has spent his life helping others.  That's part of the problem.  He was always there for others, but not for his family; the whole "cobbler's wife has no shoes" thing.  My armchair psychologist view is that he has spent his life seeking the love and validation he needs by rescuing others.  I and my brothers were excluded from the list of people he would "help" because our failings reflected his failure as a father so the less interaction, the better.  My mom was in charge of making sure we reflected well on dad and I got the message very early on that dad couldn't handle it if I "misbehaved".  I have spent most of my life seeking my dad's approval.  My T is helping me realize that I probably sought his approval because that is what I substituted for his love. 

So now I feel like I've lost his approval (love) and the way to gain it back is to allow him to vent his feelings of his disappointment in me and validate his feelings that if I had just gone to him then I wouldn't have screwed up my life and that of my kids and dBPDxh.  I need to acknowledge how deeply I've hurt him and fall back in line.  He's no longer proud of me, and that feels like he doesn't love me.  And he keeps asking me to tell him what he needs to do to make me understand that he loves me, but in the same breath says things that make me feel like he may never "get it". 
Examples:
"You need to know how much I love you, how you and dBPDxh hurt me"
"How can I show you I love you and feel you are making and have made a big mistake?" 

I feel like the second half of each of those statements is what he actually wants and the first part is lip service.  He says, and probably believes, that he wants me to feel loved but he actually wants his needs to be met.  And I don't think he understands that is precisely why I stopped coming to him.  The few times I tried to share with my dad what dBPDxh was doing that was hurting me, his response was to tell me that I needed to be more understanding of and loving towards dBPDxh.  I needed to look at what I was doing that was contributing to the problem and fix that.  He was my counselor (though not as compassionate as my actual counselor) not my dad.  The way I want(ed) my dad to respond was to be hurt that I was hurting and angered by the injustice of how I was being treated.  I wanted my dad to want to protect me, even if he knew he couldn't/shouldn't NOT to say things that made me feel like I was failing him.  I don't know how to tell him this in a way that he might be able to hear and process, and I don't even know if he's really capable or willing to do so. 

Then add to the "normal" pain of having a conversation like this the fact that I have a legitimate fear that my dad could die in the very near future.  The next stage of the progression of his disease is slipping into a coma that he would be unlikely to return from.  And guess who he has given the responsibility for "pulling the plug".  He doesn't want to burden my mom or brothers with that.  I'm the strong one, so I'm "it".

2.  Processing my relationship with dBPDxh.  This one seems to be on the back burner, but maybe it's less controlled than I'd like to think.  In my pain I seem to be linking dBPDxh and my dad a lot.  They were both supposed to love me.  They both failed to do so and dBPDxh has given up trying.  I still struggle with the message that I wasn't enough to earn/keep his love.  I still deal with the damage his words and actions did to me.  I still deal with the knowledge of the damage my words and actions did to him and the way I failed our marriage. 

We should be just 2 years away from our silver anniversary today.  We should be looking back on the struggles we've overcome and looking forward to tackling the coming challenges together.  But I no longer have any desire for that with him and that, in and of itself, is a loss.  I have lost my love for the man I promised to love all the rest of the days of my life and, while it's a relief to no longer have the pain of loving him, it feels wrong that I should be capable of extracting him from my heart.

3.  My dogs.  I know this may seem small, but I'm still mourning the loss of the dog we euthanized two weeks ago, and dreading the loss of her sister in the coming days/weeks/months.  And I am missing our third dog, who travels back and forth with my son.  She has been the only companionship I have had in my bed and the only creature I could (when it's my custody week) count on allowing me to hold them.  She is my companion, but only half time and with all the loss in my life right now I am even starting to anticipate my loss of her, though she's only 5 and should have many more years.

4.  S19.  He left to move into his first apartment on Friday.  Classes don't start for him until the 20th, but he's starting to build his own life.  I'm so very proud of and excited for him, but I do still feel the loss.  I also ache because I know that he's been hurt by my choice to leave his dad and the divorce.  He told S15's T that he is sad and cries about it sometimes.  I wish I could help ease the pain, but I know I can't do much other than be his mom. 

5.  S15.  We've made it through a LOT of pain in the past year.  There were periods of time when I thought I might lose him literally (suicide) and emotionally.  While things seem to have stabilized, I have a low level fear that any day could return us to a regression back to the silent treatments and frightening behaviors.  I also have a knowledge that progression will also present a lot of pain to deal with.  His T says S15's choosing not to deal with a lot of his pain and losses and that when he does it will likely be directed at me as the mom and stable parent.  While I will gladly take whatever is thrown at me and do everything I can to help him through the process, that is not a fun prospect.

6.  My former church.  Today will be my first day with no commitment ties to my former church.  I have a new church, but no real solid connections to it yet.  The pastor has been incredibly caring and I feel certain I will quickly feel at home there, but the leaving of my former church is still a huge loss.  It has been central in my life for nearly 14 years.  And it contains dozens of losses in the form of relationships that will no longer continue because it now seems that church was the only thing keeping them going.  That's more pain than I feel ready to unpack right now, as I need to get ready for said new church.

I have more pain sources I should detail, but I do need to run.  I'll be back with those, but appreciate any feedback/insight on the first 6 in the meantime.

BG

[formflier]

BG,

I'm wondering if the following thought might help you relationship with your Dad.

"Dad, you taught me well to help others and to take care of myself so that I can help others.  The issues between ex and I needed professional help to try and resolve.  It is sad our marriage wasn't repaired.  Please know I did my best seeking help for my marriage, myself and ex... just as you taught me to do. 

Going forward, understand I need your love and support as I grieve my marriage, which was precious to me.  The past can't be changed.

I'm sure you are grieving the loss of my marriage as well. 

FF

[Cat Familiar]

BG,
Wow, you've got a lot to grieve.     As not fun as feeling those feelings are, the best way I've learned to process is to lean into them and fully feel them and ask them for the gifts of knowledge they want to share with you and cry as much as you need to.

When I was going through my divorce, my dad died, my financial world came crashing down on my head, and the guy I thought would be my rescuer from all the chaos... .left, and a very dear cat who had been so vital to my emotional support, died. So I had an opportunity to practice the above.

So your dad has been helpful to others throughout his life and by doing so, gained self esteem. You and your brothers were an extension of his sense of self and therefore didn't receive his assistance and were judged for misbehavior. Rather than focus on the hurt you felt when your marriage ended, he thinks about how it hurt him.

It makes sense why you'd conflate the pain you feel about your dad with the pain you feel about your ex-husband. "I still struggle with the message that I wasn't enough to earn/keep his love."  Where do you suppose you learned that pattern?

Not small at all to mourn the loss of your precious dog.     I've cried more tears about a precious animal companion than I did when both my mother and father died. In their cases, there were so many conflicting emotions present, but with so many of my animal friends, it was pure love and companionship.

You've also got the empty nest thing, which often sends women into a spiral.     And you're concerned about your younger son and how he'll manage the transition after the divorce.    

And your church, which was a place of support and companionship, is now in the rearview mirror.  

So, BG, you're holding up incredibly well as you deal with all these losses. You have some very exciting new things to look forward to. And I think Neighbor B is very wise to take things slowly and allow you to heal from all the sorrows and painful losses you've experienced in such a short time.

Remember to breathe deeply and just take each moment at a time.  

Cat

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hi BeagleGirl,

You are dealing with so much at this point.  You seem to be remarkably clear headed and insightful .

My marriage lasted 38 years.  The hurt you are experiencing at the demise of your marriage is something I can relate to.  You say that it feels wrong for you to be “capable of extracting him from your heart”.  From your posts, it doesn’t seem as if you have extracted him.  After 23 years there are memories that will not be extracted.  It has given me a kind of peace to think that my marriage was multifaceted.  In many ways it was a success but because of words/actions on both of our parts, it came to an end.  I have to accept that so that I can continue to grow and flourish in my life, but it doesn’t nullify the positive things that came from our union.  What do you think about that perspective?

As cat says, breathe deeply and take each moment as it comes.   

Peace and blessings,

Mustbe

[Lucky Jim]

I like him.  I'm not going to try to stop liking him or deny (to myself) that I like him. 

Hey BG, I think it's great that you've found someone with whom you enjoy hanging out.

It's complicated, I understand, for both of you.

If I could make a suggestion, it would be: Try to let things unfold naturally.

That sounds easy, I know, but is actually pretty hard to do in a new r/s.

Keep us posted,
Lucky Jim

[BeagleGirl]

Try to let things unfold naturally.

That sounds easy, I know, but is actually pretty hard to do in a new r/s.

Lucky Jim,
So good to see you around.  Thanks for stopping by.

Yes.  Allowing things to unfold naturally seems nearly impossible for me right now.    I am constantly battling the urge to try to manage the progression.  I want to be pursued, and I think Neighbor B has shown his ability to and interest in doing so, but I know that as soon as it feels like his interest might be waning, I want to turn around and start chasing him. 

I'm really struggling to grasp what the pace of a "normal" relationship looks and feels like.  I've only had two romantic relationships and neither of them qualifies as "normal".  It's not "normal" to marry the first guy who agrees to go steady with you at ages 14 and 15.  It's also not "normal" to choose to have an affair with a married colleague.   

dBPDxh was definitely not a pursuer.  The "love bombing" that many describe on these boards didn't happen for me.  It was more of a "Sure, I'll be your boyfriend/get engaged/get married a year earlier than planned/have a kid with you/have another kid with you/move across country with you" with lots of resistance and "You're asking too much of me.  I want to leave you." sprinkled in there.  I spent close to 27 years actively managing (or trying to manage) that relationship.  My affair partner did pursue me to some extent, but I led in intimacy and wasn't really running away from him.  He was definitely not acting in a responsible manner where his obligations were concerned and chose to let his "heart" overrule his head (as did I).

So here is a man that (I think) is probably willing to pursue me, but also carefully considering his ability to do so given his responsibilities to his work, his children, and himself.  I want to honor that.  That is what I should be looking for in a man.  But it feels really uncomfortable to not know where I stand with him.  And I long for an intimate relationship with a man, especially right now when I'm hurting.  I know it's not fair to either of us to try to push a relationship for either of those reasons, but that doesn't mean I won't feel that urge to do so.  I'm facing a lot of fear and pain right now and that makes me want to control things that are outside my control.

The level of correspondence has dropped off since Friday to almost nothing.  We're still playing Words With Friends, but I've been trying not to initiate chats and his chats have not been as conversational (mostly "nice play" type stuff) and the one message I left that posed a question was not responded to.  He had his kids this weekend and was probably busy with them.  And he may be taking some time and space to think about what he wants (do men do that?).  I just hate guessing at what is going on.  I want to ask him if he's taking a step back.  I want to KNOW so I can protect myself, but as my T would say, I need to guard my heart either way and spend this time of waiting caring for myself.  It just sucks that I feel like "caring for myself" would be look like pursuing him because that's what I want to do to resolve these uncomfortable feelings. 

Sigh.  I am still looking for that "overthinking" switch.

BG

[BeagleGirl]

"Dad, you taught me well to help others and to take care of myself so that I can help others.  The issues between ex and I needed professional help to try and resolve.  It is sad our marriage wasn't repaired.  Please know I did my best seeking help for my marriage, myself and ex... just as you taught me to do.  

Going forward, understand I need your love and support as I grieve my marriage, which was precious to me.  The past can't be changed.

I'm sure you are grieving the loss of my marriage as well.  

FF,
Thank you.  I discussed the full correspondence I've had with my T today and she helped me put some names to some of the things I want to communicate to my dad.  One of those things is that I feel like he has some skewed assumptions.  A few of those assumptions are:
My behavior in my marriage was worse than it really was.
dBPDxh's behavior was better than it really was.
I didn't do everything I could/should have to save my marriage.
If I had listened to my dad, HE could have saved my marriage.

I think that last one is a biggie.  I think it leaves us both tied up in guilt.  

I realized a few things as I talked this out with my T.  I realized that my dad expected me to excuse him from attending grandma's funeral because "mom ignores and often rejects him", but I feel he has always responded to any "complaint" I have had about dBPDxh doing the same or worse by saying I needed to be more understanding of dBPDxh and look at how I was contributing to the problem.  That's not necessarily something I need to address with dad in the first round, but I think it was important for me to see.

I also realized that I really wanted him to be angry at what dBPDxh has done to me.  There were the times I tried to share my hurt and he seemed more disappointed in me than angered by the hurt I experienced.  More recently, it bothers me that there has been no acknowledgement of the pain that dBPDxh has caused me and our kids by starting this relationship with the church secretary before even our legal separation was finalized.  I feel like he feels it's basically what I "deserve" because I left my husband and that justifies dBPDxh seeking out and starting a new relationship.  I don't need a dBPDxh bashing session, but it would be nice if he could say "I'm saddened that dBPDxh has moved on in a way that has got to hurt you and I'm sure you are worried about how it is impacting your boys."

The other REALLY big "Aha" from today is that I am really focused on a given outcome that is not within my power to achieve.  This is a theme throughout several areas of my life that I need to "sit with" for a while.  I am focused on achieving a better relationship with my dad - I can't do that on my own.  Dad has to be willing as well.  A better focus would be making the extension of an invitation to a different/better relationship the desired outcome.  Then comes the willingness to stop there and wait, not pushing and working myself into exhaustion trying to get him to accept the invitation.  

Boy did I play out the "invitation blitz" in my marriage.  I picture that scene from Harry Potter when the owls are delivering all the Hogwarts invitations.  That's probably what my JADE sessions felt like to dBPDxh.  I was certain that if I got the wording right or asked at the right time or... .then dBPDxh would change his behaviors and I'd have the marriage I wanted.  

And it's what I feel tempted to do with Neighbor B.  Poor Neighbor B.

So now I need to spend some time working on that first invitation to my dad.  I think that he'll have to RSVP and probably "attend" before I know whether a second invitation will be sent and what it will look like.  

[BeagleGirl]

Cat,
Thank you for sharing your experience of loss.  Right now is a perfect time for me to hear from someone who has faced similar pain "I made it through, and you will too".  

I definitely am crying a lot.  Maybe not "all I need to", but I think I really took my T's advice to "feel the pain" seriously.  I have a bit less room for grief this week, as it's a custody week, but I'm trying to make time for it so I can "learn what it has to teach me".  

I talked with my T today about the question you posed "Where do you think you learned the pattern of not feeling like you were enough to hold on to love?"  I would say that I learned it best from my dad.  Not just that I felt like I needed to be/do enough to earn his love.  I look at him now and realize that's how he's lived his life.  He has also equated approval with love and worried that he would lose approval if he didn't work hard enough for it.  I think it's a generational wound that I really want to spare my sons from.  I want them to see a mother who is secure in her value because of who she is, not what she does.  I want them to know that I love them for who they are, no matter what they do.

Thank you for your words of encouragement.  They mean a lot.

BG

[formflier]

Did you talk through with T if it is a good idea to talk through all those assumptions with your Dad?

I could see a little bit of that being good, yet I wonder what the goal would be of working through each one.


I suppose you really need to think about what kind of relationship you want with your Dad... and what things are "on the table" and what things are private to you.

Personally... I didn't discuss much with my parents about my marriage.  Scheduling things... but I don't talk through feelings. 

I do know that they have a decent idea of what is going on, and during estate stuff I had some talks with Mom about control of assets and preserving those for her grandchildren.  Mom understands why I have my finances the way I do.

Anyway... I digress.

What relationship do you want with Dad... .what does he want? 

FF

[BasementDweller]

Hi, BG! 

Greetings from one overthinker who is just venturing out into the terrifying "dating" waters after a BPD relationship - to another. 

I'm still on the detaching board because I'm less than two months out and NOT properly emotionally detached, but I have been following and enjoying your saga. It's extremely strange to try to navigate a normal, slow rolling, non-dramatic intro with a man that isn't emotionally over the top. I hear you there.

It seems like both you and Neighbor B have a lot going on and also a lot in common, both that you like each other, and you have other responsibilities and concerns. It sounds like it's being handled as rationally and respectfully as possible by both of you, and I can imagine it must feel a bit mixed. "I don't want him to overwhelm me... .but... .I don't want him to ignore me either."

Unfortunately I have no wise advice, because I am just now starting to talk with a guy after a very odd start. I was/am in no way ready to date again, but this one just sort of "appeared". I have no idea what the hell I'm doing.   The overthinking thing though? Constant. Keeps me awake all night at times. Where's the off switch?

Just dropping in to see how things are going and wish you luck and good vibes. He sounds like a very nice and conscientious man. 

[Lucky Jim]

I'm facing a lot of fear and pain right now and that makes me want to control things that are outside my control.

Hello again, BG, I admire your honesty and think you have put your finger on a central issue: your need to control things.

What would happen if you let go of the outcome with your new friend?  You might find it much less stressful.  If it works out with the new guy, great; if not, that's OK, too.

Let me give you an example.  It used to drive me crazy when my kids neglected to respond to messages from me (my BPDxW and I are divorced).  I thought it was rude and unkind for my children to ignore messages from me, their own Father!  Then I read a passage in a book about gaining freedom by letting go of outcomes.  It dawned on me that I could let go of the outcome -- my need to hear back from my kids -- and, instead, could regard my messages as an expression of my love for them, complete and sufficient regardless of any response.

Letting go of the outcome took a lot of pressure off me.  You might find it helpful, too!

LJ

[BeagleGirl]

I am just now starting to talk with a guy after a very odd start. I was/am in no way ready to date again, but this one just sort of "appeared". I have no idea what the hell I'm doing. 

BasementDweller,
I'm sorry you're facing this confusion, but I'm also so glad I'm not alone in this confusion.   

I would say that Neighbor B just sort of "appeared" for me as well.  I have spent a few minutes in the past few days cursing him for doing so.  It's not really his fault, but I feel like I was in a really good place before he came along and messed up all my pretty little plans for not thinking about dating for at least 6 months post divorce.  The past few weeks it feels like I've thought of little else.  I suspect he may have had a similar thought or two.

I wish you lots of hope and peace in your detaching process.  It still feels odd to not "love" dBPDxh, but I think the confirmation that he has moved on severed the last ties.  As painful as our anniversary was, I know I don't want him back.  It's bitter sweet to know that he no longer has the power to hurt or comfort me the way he used to because he no longer has access to my heart.

BG

[BasementDweller]

I wish you lots of hope and peace in your detaching process.  It still feels odd to not "love" dBPDxh, but I think the confirmation that he has moved on severed the last ties.  As painful as our anniversary was, I know I don't want him back.  It's bitter sweet to know that he no longer has the power to hurt or comfort me the way he used to because he no longer has access to my heart.

Thank you! Mine is slow going, but the wound is still fresh. I'm glad to hear that you have finally shut him out of your heart for good and are over it. I hope to get there soon. I don't want him back (too unstable and unreliable) but I do miss him and what we had. I still feel like I want to go "home".

I guess when someone else appears on the scene, they just kind of "drop in" with no regard to timing.   I once lost a really great man due to bad timing, and I wish I had handled things differently and tried a little harder - despite the timing. So this time I am trying to keep an open mind. I don't know if the guy I met wants anything serious or is just dating around or too busy to have a relationship, etc... .I guess it doesn't matter at this point, because I'm still a bit numb.

The Neighbor B situation seems like if it does pan out in the long run, it could have some staying power if you both choose. It seems now like a mature, warm friendship that could become a relationship under the right circumstances, and that it would be entered into in a healthy way - that would create a solid foundation. Whatever happens, I can foresee him being a very nice person to have around.

[BeagleGirl]

What would happen if you let go of the outcome with your new friend?  You might find it much less stressful.  If it works out with the new guy, great; if not, that's OK, too.

LJ,
That is another elusive switch that I haven't seemed to find, but I think I'm closer to it today.  I keep reminding myself that I was fine before Neighbor B came along, and I'll be fine if he drifts away.  I want to find some comfort and security in the promise of something more down the line, but fixing my eyes on that imagined bright spot in the future makes today seem duller.  That's not how I want to live my life.

Today it feels easier to let go and be okay with either outcome.  I'm not sure how long I'll be able to hold onto letting go (irony intended), but I'm hopeful that this process will get easier and I'll be able to enjoy whatever interaction we do have without needing to see what it might indicate for the future.  

I'm still struggling with how much "initiation" I do.  I was honest when I told him that I pursue friendships.  This past week I've felt like I couldn't pursue because I wanted more than friendship.  Today it feels like I might be okay with either outcome and that makes it easier for me to think that an invitation to do "friend" things where I am okay with being turned down might not be out of line.  I obviously need to give myself some time to allow my feelings to settle before going "off leash".

Thanks,
BG

[BeagleGirl]

Did you talk through with T if it is a good idea to talk through all those assumptions with your Dad?

What relationship do you want with Dad... .what does he want? 

FF,
My T and I discussed the assumptions I feel he is making and that I should do some "truth telling" if the opportunity arose, but I think the more important thing to communicate is that I feel like he is making assumptions and that impacts our relationship.  

I'm definitely looking at this as a long term conversation, with lots of pauses and possible stop signs along the way.  This is one area in my life where I don't feel the urge to rush.

Which is good, because my mom called me today and said that dad has been really depressed since I started this conversation with him and she's worried that he can't handle it.   And she also questions if she can handle dad through this, even if he can handle it.  

Dad had texted me with some insight into how he thinks he's failed me as a father and asked me to add to the list so he can work towards being a better father.  I know it took a lot for him to look at himself and admit those things.  He wonders if this is God's punishment for him being such a fool.  

Here's how I responded:
"I want you to know that I love you and believe that we can have a better relationship.  If I didn't, it would be pointless to have this conversation.  

It's been a painful weekend for me and i felt like I didn't have what it took to continue the conversation at this time.  I'm sorry that left you hanging.  

I don't see this as punishment, but rather as an opportunity.  It may hurt at times, but most healing does involve some pain.

Yes.  You have failed me in many ways over the years.  I know we can't go back and fix those things, but if understanding them can keep us from repeating those hurts, I'd like to try.  I know you want to be a better dad.  I feel like your desire to help me is born out of that desire.  I think that what I want you to understand is that I have always feared disappointing you, so your counsel feels like "This is what you need to do for me to love you".  

I don't feel like I need you to be my counselor or pastor.  I have those in my life already.  I feel like I need someone who sees the best in me and is hurt and even angered when I have been hurt.  

I'll say one more thing and then give you some time to pray and process.  

The most painful words I have faced were you saying to me last May thatt it takes two to break a marriage and you "know how I can be".  I felt those words very deeply both because I felt you saw all the ugliness in me and because I felt like you didn't see the beauty.  I wanted you to know "how I could be" an amazing mother and friend, a patient and long suffering wife, a creative and intelligent employee, someone who brings joy and sparkle to the day of complete strangers, someone who gives and serves others joyfully.  I want you to see those things in me because, guess what, many of those things were passed down to me by you."

It's not as polished as I would have liked, but it's heartfelt.  And if that is the end of the conversation, I feel like I can be okay with that.  I don't know what the next step would be.  I guess I am just waiting to see if/how he responds.  

BG