co parenting/parallel parenting with no plan?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My W wants to live together in the same house and co parent (I believe it will more be parallel parenting) but says that we do not need a plan in order to do that.  This sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.  Am I off base?  If I am not, then what is the best way to handle this?  If I develop a plan, she is not going to respect it.  She is just going to do whatever she wants to do.  I firmly believe that we need a plan to establish responsibilities and boundaries etc.  Where we live does not have a legal separation option.  You must be separated for a year but it is just based off of testimony, not a legal proceeding. 

WC

[Woodchuck]

My W wants to live together in the same house and co parent (I believe it will more be parallel parenting) but says that we do not need a plan in order to do that.  This sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.  Am I off base?  If I am not, then what is the best way to handle this?  If I develop a plan, she is not going to respect it.  She is just going to do whatever she wants to do.  I firmly believe that we need a plan to establish responsibilities and boundaries etc.  Where we live does not have a legal separation option.  You must be separated for a year but it is just based off of testimony, not a legal proceeding. 

WC

[ForeverDad]

I spoke to my then newly hired divorce attorney about a legal separation.  He said it wouldn't work with conflict.  The close relationship is what triggers the sensitization, the enabling to Blame Shift and poor behaviors.  (BPD is most evident in the closest of relationships and with Separation you are still married.)

He had been a police officer then became an attorney.  He said in his 17 years of practice that he had only handled two separations.  He said the main reason the couple did LS instead of D was simply because the wife had a chronic disease and LS allowed her to remain on his health plan.

When there is such a high level of discord and conflict as found in our sort of cases, you can't do a halfway solution, the cord has to be cut.  Not that we want to, it's just the only practical option left.  Of course, the key and deciding question is whether the disordered and acting-out spouse will set aside the Denial of Responsibility, stop Blame Shifting and apply intensive therapy in life, thinking, perceptions and behaviors for the long haul.

[Panda39]

My W wants to live together in the same house and co parent (I believe it will more be parallel parenting) but says that we do not need a plan in order to do that. 

Yep, you are right on the money, this is ridiculous 

How did this work for you during your marriage?  Because to me this looks just like being married what would be different?

I may have missed this, but what is your goal in terms of your marriage? Divorce?  Reconciliation? or you are unsure at this point?

If you want to pursue divorce, I can tell you living with someone you are divorcing (even without BPD) is absolutely miserable.  I was officially divorced in August 2009 but neither of us could move out until our house sold, this was during the housing bubble, we had to do a short sale that took foorever.  We did not move until March 2010!  This was a HUGE lesson in patience.

What if one of you wants to go on a date with someone else... .how does that work if you live with your ex?

To me she wants her cake (you - taking care of her, the kids etc) and to eat it too (do whatever she wants, with no responsibilities because you're doing it).

If you want to reconcile then that would be a whole other kettle of fish.

Panda39

[Woodchuck]

Yep, you are right on the money, this is ridiculous 

How did this work for you during your marriage?  Because to me this looks just like being married what would be different?

It has not worked very well.  She has the mindset that since she has been a SAHM and spends the most time with them, she is the 'decider'.  I expect that she is going to view things much the same way regardless of the fact that she is going to be working full time.

I may have missed this, but what is your goal in terms of your marriage? Divorce?  Reconciliation? or you are unsure at this point?

This is a very tough question.  My goal has been reconciliation for a long time but I am leaning more towards divorce at this point in time.

What if one of you wants to go on a date with someone else... .how does that work if you live with your ex?

While this is a factor to keep in mind, it is not one of the top things on my list as far as deciding what to do, at least not at this point.

To me she wants her cake (you - taking care of her, the kids etc) and to eat it too (do whatever she wants, with no responsibilities because you're doing it).

If you want to reconcile then that would be a whole other kettle of fish.

Panda39

I believe that she has pretty much always wanted her cake and eat it too.  I believe she is in some fantasy land with how she thinks things should be.  The fact that she believes that she shouldn't contribute to monthly expenses and thinks that wee don't need a plan for how we are going to coparent just boggles my mind.  I have started reading a bit about coparenting with a pwBPD and it does not look like a good idea at all.  I think that I have spent many years trying to make something work that really won't work.  My mindset is slowly shifting as I learn more.  I really appreciate all your insight!

WC






[/quote]

[Woodchuck]

When there is such a high level of discord and conflict as found in our sort of cases, you can't do a halfway solution, the cord has to be cut.  Not that we want to, it's just the only practical option left.  Of course, the key and deciding question is whether the disordered and acting-out spouse will set aside the Denial of Responsibility, stop Blame Shifting and apply intensive therapy in life, thinking, perceptions and behaviors for the long haul.

I am slowly beginning to understand and accept this.  It is sad but it is reality.  I need to work on putting my goals together and forming a plan.  I do not believe that she will entertain counseling for herself at all.  She believes that everyone else is the problem.

WC

[Woodchuck]

I attempted to have a conversion with my W last night about how to coparent.  She told me that one of the major points of contention is that I view mistakes much different than she does.  She told me that she believes that I view mistakes as not a big deal and shouldn't have consequences.  I asked her if she could give me an example.  The example below just blew my mind.

Our D11 asked if she could get a box cake to make a few days ago.  She made it the next day.  She failed to mix the eggs in all the way which resulted in the cake being a 'scrambled egg cake'.  Whence pulled it out of the oven, there were literally scrambled eggs swirled into part of the cake.  The bright yellow was very obvious since it was a chocolate cake.  She sent me a photo of the cake and asked me if I wanted scrambled egg cake.  I asked her what happened and she told me that the eggs separated from the batter.   I told her to cook up some bacon to go with it and maybe she could start a new trend.  When I got home, I told her it was not a big deal and that I was proud of her for trying.  I told her that we could get another cake mix and I would help her with that one so she could see how to do it properly.  I also explained that it is perfectly ok to make mistakes, that I make mistakes all the time with my woodworking projects.  This important part is trying again until you get it right. 

This, according to my W was not an appropriate way to handle things.  According to her, mistakes should not happen and when they do happen there should be 'consequences'.  I should have told our D11 that she should have paid more attention and followed the instructions on the box and if she had then she wouldn't have made a mistake.  There was no excuse for her mistake... .etc.

I could not believe what I was hearing.  Honestly it made me a bit angry.  How can you be so rigid about a box cake?  It is $2 and a learning experience.  I told that I could see her point to an extent if it happened over and over again but this was her first time and she needs some coaching.  My W was adamant that 'mistakes should not happen'. 

I probably should have just dropped things there but I didn't.  I brought up one of her 'mistakes' where she hit a curb and blew one of her tires.  She called me to help her out and change her tire.  I told that I could not imagine telling her that there was no excuse for her hitting the curb, that the mistake should not have happened.  Of course that was different because there was no way that she could have seen the curb because it was too dark out so the mistake was unavoidable and it was really the city's fault because they had not painted the curb well enough to be seen in the dark.  I recognized that trying to get her to see how what she was saying was completely messed up was going to be futile so I just ended the conversation. 

I do not see any way to co-parent with someone like this.  This is just one of many examples of how she expects perfection from everyone but herself.  It really makes me sad to see her have this mentality especially towards our children.

WC

[Panda39]

This, according to my W was not an appropriate way to handle things.  According to her, mistakes should not happen and when they do happen there should be 'consequences'.  I should have told our D11 that she should have paid more attention and followed the instructions on the box and if she had then she wouldn't have made a mistake.  There was no excuse for her mistake... .etc.

My W was adamant that 'mistakes should not happen'.

First of all, you handled the Cake situation beautifully    

Your wife is in BPD black and white thinking land... .it's either perfect (and in her mind your daughter is perfect so your wife by extension is also perfect) or it's a mistake (and you're daughter is bad/stupid person and by extension so is your wife).  Makes me also wonder what kind of messages your wife received from her parents as a child.

I recognized that trying to get her to see how what she was saying was completely messed up was going to be futile so I just ended the conversation.

Nice catch, you're right it was going nowhere.  Remember feelings = facts... .she feels it therefore it is, your logic (which makes complete sense by the way) will not matter if she feels/believes it is something else.

This is just one of many examples of how she expects perfection from everyone but herself.

It's actually more like she expects perfection because in her mind those closest to her are an extension of herself (In her mind the behavior of those closest to her reflects back on her and how she sees herself perceived by others) and your perfection is her perfection and perfection relieves her feelings of shame.  Your imperfection adds to her shame and in her mind makes her look bad and by extension she feels bad.  She feels bad, therefore it is bad.

Regarding co-parenting with someone with BPD everyone's situation is different, in my SO's case (he has an uBPDxw) Parallel Parenting worked better for him.  The interesting thing in his case was, he didn't even know what Parallel Parenting was.  The judge in his case actually structured the final decisions so that it was Parallel Parenting.  In his case the judge divided decision making of certain things, I believe he saw the high level of conflict, and who the problem was, but needed to make things appear fair.  My SO was awarded Education, Medical & Dental decision making (he was able to show her neglect in these areas) and his ex was awarded Therapy, Vision & Gynecological.  On the surface they each received decision making for 3 things so it looks like an even split.  But if you look deeper who got the stuff that really mattered?  

He did have a bit of a bumpy ride regarding the kids therapy initially, Gynecological decisions never came into play, and she bought a few pairs of glasses.

Having things structured this way meant that interaction between my SO & his ex was minimized, each had their own wheelhouse.  Each did their own thing when the kids were with them (yes, we didn't always like mom's behaviors but we can't control her and she has suffered the natural consequences of her actions). In 2105 both daughters voted with their feet (to quote ForeverDad) and moved in with their dad full-time (in spite of the court order - mom did some horrendous stuff to the girls that I'm sure she wouldn't want to come out in court, so she never fought the kids decision).  Currently D21 is no contact with her mother and D17 is low contact mostly phone/text.

Conflict could flair up occasionally in the realm of extracurricular activities.  Because (IMO) his ex would come up with some idea herslelf, that the kids just had to do but it was up to dad to pay and get the kids there.  These types of things were a way to engage with my SO and create drama, because she was coparenting   and she would play the your a bad dad card if you don't do what the kids want. FOG. He would object to doing everything or not having enough money and Bingo we had conflict and drama. So initial there were conflicts in these situations.  What he later figured out was to push it back on her.  You want our daughter to have dance class, great I have no objection, but it's up to you to pay for it and get her there. No conflict/No drama. Then guess what dance class that must happen because the kids just have to have it, and your a bad dad if you don't do it, never happened, and the idea disappeared.  Why because it was never about the class for the girls, it was about an excuse to engage their father.
 
I also just want to add that my dating question was more about looking out into the future and possibly anticipating how your decisions now could affect things in the future (and yes I know you don't have a crystal ball  ).

Take Care,
Panda39  

[Woodchuck]

First of all, you handled the Cake situation beautifully    

Your wife is in BPD black and white thinking land... .it's either perfect (and in her mind your daughter is perfect so your wife by extension is also perfect) or it's a mistake (and you're daughter is bad/stupid person and by extension so is your wife).  Makes me also wonder what kind of messages your wife received from her parents as a child.

Nice catch, you're right it was going nowhere.  Remember feelings = facts... .she feels it therefore it is, your logic (which makes complete sense by the way) will not matter if she feels/believes it is something else.

Panda-
Thank you for the feedback!  It felt good to stay calm and express how I felt and let her just carry on with her thinking.  It really saddens me that she looks at the kids this way but there is nothing I can do about it other than be the best example I can be and help them grow as best as I can.  It is slowly becoming easier to just disengage as I realize that no amount of facts or logic are going to do a bit of good.  Her feelings rule and that is the end of the story.  I asked her pointedly last night if she cared about how I felt or viewed things.  She told me that if my views or goals are not in line with hers, she does not care about how I view or see things.  I do not see any healthy way to work with this.

Conflict could flair up occasionally in the realm of extracurricular activities.  Because (IMO) his ex would come up with some idea herslelf, that the kids just had to do but it was up to dad to pay and get the kids there.  These types of things were a way to engage with my SO and create drama, because she was coparenting   and she would play the your a bad dad card if you don't do what the kids want. FOG. He would object to doing everything or not having enough money and Bingo we had conflict and drama. So initial there were conflicts in these situations.  What he later figured out was to push it back on her.  You want our daughter to have dance class, great I have no objection, but it's up to you to pay for it and get her there. No conflict/No drama. Then guess what dance class that must happen because the kids just have to have it, and your a bad dad if you don't do it, never happened, and the idea disappeared.  Why because it was never about the class for the girls, it was about an excuse to engage their father.

I have been learning to put things back on her as well and it does make a difference.  Her making demands etc has nothing to do with what she really wants, aside from control that is.  If I am able to accept what she wants and then put the responsibility back on her, she is silent.  I asked her today if she would be interested in going to a Gottman workshop.  She said she was as long as it did not interfere with her work schedule.  I had found one on the weekend and sent her the info.  She said she was willing to split the cost.  I told her that we needed to figure out a way for us to pay for it together, either I pay for the registration and she write me a check or vice versa because I do not want to be stuck with a non-refundable $700 investment that she backs out on at the last minute.  As soon as I put this in place, she claimed that she believes that we did that several years ago and it was a complete waste of time.  I told her that I did not remember that but accepted it was what she remembered and understood that she did not want to go and that was fine.   She then told me that she thinks that I should look into an affair recovery class that we can go to.  I told her that I was open to suggestions and was all for it if it helped.  I also told her that I believe that our issues are much deeper than my affair and that we need to be able address those and I am all for any class or seminar etc that would help us address the root issues.  I closed with telling her that I was open to any suggestions that she had.  This was met with silence.  I expected nothing less but I will not allow myself to get baited into the dance that we have been in for many years. 
 

I also just want to add that my dating question was more about looking out into the future and possibly anticipating how your decisions now could affect things in the future (and yes I know you don't have a crystal ball  ).

I appreciate the book recommendation.  I looked it up and was hoping that there was a digital version available.  Unfortunately there was not.  I ordered the paperback version though.  I found the list of recommended books a bit interesting.  There were several 'female led relationship' guides.  According to the descriptions, it appears that they are basically entry level BDSM books.  The description of one of them (Surrender, Submit, Serve Her by Key Barrett) had me chuckling a bit.  It sounds exactly like what my W says she wants. 

WC

[livednlearned]

My W wants to live together in the same house and co parent (I believe it will more be parallel parenting) but says that we do not need a plan in order to do that.  This sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.  

What prompted her to suggest this?

What would an arrangement like this solve for her?

[Woodchuck]

What prompted her to suggest this?

What would an arrangement like this solve for her?

I have no idea what prompted her to come to this conclusion.  All of the things she has said about home life over the last month have been very alarming as they don't seem to be related to anything in particular.

She states that it will allow the kids to maintain both parents and that it is healthier for them that way.  She wants a divorce as soon as they graduate in 7 years.  Honestly, it seems to me that she just wants a completely free ride.  No financial obligations at all, no household or marital obligations.  I hate to say it but the way that she is suggesting things go makes her sound like an entitled spoiled child.  On top of that, refusing to have a plan or have any respect for a plan that I come up with allows her latitude to do whatever she feels like at the drop of a hat.  When I combine that with her statement that she does not care how I feel or what I think about anything if my thoughts or feelings conflict with hers, it all just seems like a recipe for disaster.  I would rather eat scrambled egg cake for the rest of my life than live the way she has suggested. 

WC

WC

[formflier]

  Honestly it made me a bit angry.  

So... .while I don't think your wife was "thoughtfully" going after this... .I suspect there was something she "got" from making you angry.


And... .wouldn't it be possible to take what you wife wants... and "deflect" it... just a bit (slightly modify) and still accomplish your goals.

I mean... ."destructions" are important right... .and it's best to read those after you've attempted it a time or two... right?  Really... who reads those instructions first?   

WC... .I'm still getting to know you and my understanding is there is religious component to your marriage and family.  I would use that to your advantage.  I do.

I remember when I would get mad when crazy would come out of my wife's mouth.  I still do, just way less. 

I also remember thinking that I would "take on" BPD... .  I'm a straightforward guy, so learning nuance and deflection was hard although I used lots of military analogies to help.

You still seem to be in the mode of "taking it on directly" and I want to assure you... .nothing good comes from giving or taking
 a face shot.  Almost just as important... .if they want to shot themselves in the face (figuratively) don't rescue or even watch.

The military analogy I used was about "tank armor".  You have to get a tough hide... .and then sometimes maneuver ... ever so slightly so that a shell bounces off you... .vice destroys your tank.  Sure... there was a loud clunk when it hit... .but no real damage.

That's not a permanent solution for BPD, yet we know that when shooting at your tank doesn't work for them anymore, they will stop "wasting" ammo.  Full disclosure:  There will also be a time when they "shoot" more.

OK... a bit long winded... .but, you need to figure out how you can parent best and do that.  Let her come up with her own plan.  Perhaps use the religious component (head of house thing for a man) for times when something "really" needs to be stopped.

Thoughts?

FF

[ForeverDad]

She wants everything to remain the same except not to be close to you.  BPD is most evident to the people closest to the person.  This way you would still feel obligated to the marriage yet she can act as though she's not married to you.  That won't work.

My ex did similar, though her worst behaviors didn't come until after we had a child, she pulled away as though she could only love one, either or child or me.  And I lost.  Intimacy became rare, typically only once a month or two.  One time I had the memory it was 4, maybe 6, months.  That was a drop from multiple times a week.  Ouch!  She often hinted at intimacy in the morning but then sabotaged it during the day.  The last time was on a weekend about a month before the final implosion.  Immediately afterward she got up and declared, "Now you'll have to go with me on my trip to X city."  She saw sexx as bargaining.  Love had become sexx.  Double ouch!

Of course the conflict, belittling, criticisms, rants and rages were huge factors but the most painful was losing love and intimacy.

Have you pondered the 5 stages of grieving a loss?  The last step is Acceptance.  Accept what Is.  An insightful comment there, among many, was "I got there in my head before I got there in my heart."  So give yourself time to process it all.  In time your heart will catch up with your head.

[livednlearned]

I don't think your wife was "thoughtfully" going after this... .I suspect there was something she "got" from making you angry.

FF makes a great point. Negative engagement is preferable because no engagement means emptiness or abandonment or something else equally awful.

If she can stay negatively engaged, she can feel something. When she feels nothing, she will be desperate to feel something, so that there are at least some feelings to make her feel whole, even if those feelings and those interactions are awful.

One suggestion is that you find phrases that help pad your exit when she is hellbent on staying negatively engaged. "I'll have to think about that." When you find one that works, keep using it. "I handle this kind of thing better when I have the time and space to reflect and collect my thoughts." "I want to think about what you've said, I'm going to go for a walk and mull this over. I will be back before 10pm."

In an argument, you focus on how you interact with her information, rather than engaging that information directly. "This is a lot for me to process. I'm going to give myself a time out so I can think this through with a clear head."

Then you do something proactive to take care of yourself.

Given all her threats about divorce, you definitely want to talk to an L if you haven't already (sorry if you mentioned this somewhere and I missed it). You don't necessarily have to act on it this information, but you do need some sense of what you'll do if she moves her own plan forward. At the very least, talk to 2-3 lawyers and interview them so you get a feel for how different ones work, and know who you'll call if things escalate.

My ex threatened divorce for years. The nature of those threats started to get suspiciously specific, so I consulted with a lawyer at the advice of my T, and then used that information to make sure I was prepared for any scenario. Sometimes people with BPD tip their hand when they project onto you what they are themselves planning.

My ex was also a former trial attorney and I felt it was important to be six steps ahead if I hoped to survive our divorce. You're doing the right thing to be reading, and doing some light prepping in the event things start to move quickly.

Meanwhile, you are doing great at tweaking your communication skills with her. They may not change who she is but they can help prevent things from getting worse.

LnL

[Woodchuck]

She wants everything to remain teh same except not to be close to you.  BPD is most evident to the people closest to the person.  This way you would still feel obligated to the marriage yet she can act as though she's not married to you.  That won't work.

ForeverDad-
I think this is very true in my situation.  It is painful to watch as she interacts with others and acts as though she is so happy but as soon as they are gone, the facade evaporates.  In my head, I thinking, 'I am right here, I want you, I love you, why?... .etc'.  I feel a combination of hurt/helplessness/guilt because she appears to be so happy except for when she is around me and our kids.  Being able to understand BPD a bit, makes it a little easier to deal with but it still hurts, I am just trying to let it go.  Heck, even watching her with her cat and seeing her being so affectionate and loving hurts but I have to try to just let it go I guess.  I know I probably sound like a sap but I am really just lonely.

My ex did similar, though her worst behaviors didn't come until after we had a child, she pulled away as though she could only love one, either or child or me.  And I lost.  Intimacy became rare, typically only once a month or two.  One time I had the memory it was 4, maybe 6, months.  That was a drop from multiple times a week.  Ouch!  She often hinted at intimacy in the morning but then sabotaged it during the day.  The last time was on a weekend about a month before the final implosion.  Immediately afterward she got up and declared, "Now you'll have to go with me on my trip to X city."  She saw sexx as bargaining.  Love had become sexx.  Double ouch!

This is where there was a big change for us as well.  Things were ok until we had our first child.  As most fathers, I felt like I had lost her in a way but I was able to deal with it.  She has always told me like she felt like I abandoned her when we had our son.  I feel like I tried to help as much as she would let me but she was/is very possessive and views both children more or less as hers.  I have never had the issue where she has used sex as a bargaining chip, it is just almost always on her terms.  I was actually reading emails today from years ago where I tried to communicate to her what my needs/desires were.  They were largely met with silence.  I have never really felt like I can be myself in that area and to make it even more complicated, I have to guess what she wants because she can't/won't communicate her wants/needs to me.  And it is not like my wants or needs consist of any 'abnormal' or 'underground' but again, if my wants/needs don't match with hers, they don't matter.

Of course the conflict, belittling, criticisms, rants and rages were huge factors but the most painful was losing love and intimacy.

Have you pondered the 5 stages of grieving a loss?  The last step is Acceptance.  Accept what Is.  An insightful comment there, among many, was "I got there in my head before I got there in my heart."  So give yourself time to process it all.  In time your heart will catch up with your head.

It is much the same for me, having lost love and intimacy being the most hurtful.  I believe this loss is what led to my affair.  I am not justifying it or passing the blame to her.  It was simply an influence.  The choice was mine and I own it.  I did start reading through the link on Acceptance.  I need to read it a few more times to process it all.  I really appreciate you sharing your experience.  It helps to not feel so alone.

WC

[Woodchuck]

FF makes a great point. Negative engagement is preferable because no engagement means emptiness or abandonment or something else equally awful.

If she can stay negatively engaged, she can feel something. When she feels nothing, she will be desperate to feel something, so that there are at least some feelings to make her feel whole, even if those feelings and those interactions are awful.

LnL-
I have really noticed this as I have worked on changing how I communicate and avoid JADE and getting sucked in to an argument.  If she can't pull me in, she just goes silent.  She does not respond to positive comments/questions or if she does, it is in a negative way.  With that said, making sure I minimize how much I engage has really reduced at least my anxiety.

One suggestion is that you find phrases that help pad your exit when she is hellbent on staying negatively engaged. "I'll have to think about that." When you find one that works, keep using it. "I handle this kind of thing better when I have the time and space to reflect and collect my thoughts." "I want to think about what you've said, I'm going to go for a walk and mull this over. I will be back before 10pm."

In an argument, you focus on how you interact with her information, rather than engaging that information directly. "This is a lot for me to process. I'm going to give myself a time out so I can think this through with a clear head."

Then you do something proactive to take care of yourself.

I have been working on this and it helps.  The other thing that helps is to put the responsibility back on her.  For example, when she attacks me for not taking accountability for my actions and not showing any remorse (both pink elephants in my book) and then asks me how I think I have either taken accountability or shown remorse. Instead of explaining how I have, I put the responsibility back on her by telling her that I understand that she feels that way and that it is obvious that whatever I have done to take accountability or show remorse has not spoken to her so it doesn't really matter what I feel like I have done.  I follow that up with telling her that I need her to help me understand what WILL speak to her so she feels that I have taken accountability and shown remorse.  That is either met with silence or a snide remark.  But I have put the burden on her to help me meet her need and have not allowed her to suck me in and explain how I see things so she can further the negativity by tearing whatever I say apart.

Given all her threats about divorce, you definitely want to talk to an L if you haven't already (sorry if you mentioned this somewhere and I missed it). You don't necessarily have to act on it this information, but you do need some sense of what you'll do if she moves her own plan forward. At the very least, talk to 2-3 lawyers and interview them so you get a feel for how different ones work, and know who you'll call if things escalate.

My ex threatened divorce for years. The nature of those threats started to get suspiciously specific, so I consulted with a lawyer at the advice of my T, and then used that information to make sure I was prepared for any scenario. Sometimes people with BPD tip their hand when they project onto you what they are themselves planning.

My ex was also a former trial attorney and I felt it was important to be six steps ahead if I hoped to survive our divorce. You're doing the right thing to be reading, and doing some light prepping in the event things start to move quickly.

I am going to be talking to at least one lawyer soon.  It is evident that she unstable to the point that I never know what a day will bring and I need to be prepared for the worst.  I don't think that she will pursue a divorce unless I give her a good reason to and that is not going to happen.  I believe that she will stay and continue to live her life however she wants.  She has it pretty damn good in that she does not have to pay for anything and can do whatever she wants whenever and however without talking about it or anything.  With that being said, I know that she is in constant turmoil on the inside and trying to maintain while dealing with that has to be completely exhausting. 

Meanwhile, you are doing great at tweaking your communication skills with her. They may not change who she is but they can help prevent things from getting worse.

LnL

Thank you!  I am trying and things are getting better at least for myself and my emotional health.

WC

[formflier]

I recommend that you have your "divorce action plan" all ready to go.

This is lawyer

His files are ready, he is up to speed and waiting.

Then you hope you put this on the shelf and never need it.


I don't think I fully explained my co parenting point.  While I don't think you should verbally agree to this, I think you should prepare for this to happen in reality.

It's pretty much how things operate in my house.  I had to let go of a bunch of stuff I wanted to control.  Chores aren't anywhere close to what I want... .wife controls them... very erratic.  I don't save her from her lack of planning  No do I take the brunt of any outbursts.

When it's just me we get things done the way I want.  Kids have kinda figured that out and pretty much go along with it.
 
All that being said, the few things I have "hung on to"... I don't give an inch about.  For instance... if my wife starts running me down in front of the kids... .I send them all to their rooms because this is an "adult conversation"... .not for their ears.

That deprives my wife of an audience... .which removes fuel.  Kids don't really want to listen... .so they usually zip off to their rooms and "don't hear" their Mom saying otherwise.

This is where I use "religious stuff" to my advantage, because my wife believes she must obey me unless I'm asking her to sin.  Well... .she realizes that she can't "turn me in" for sending kids to their rooms... .so they don't hear Mommy saying Daddy isn't a Christian... .or "fill in the blank"

This is an example of "flipped the double bind".  I haven't had to do this in perhaps 6 months.  Wife hated it... all kinds of threats.  I did it a few times and the "public trials" of me pretty much ended since they weren't working.

Do I wish my situation were better... sure I do.  But I've essentially figured out a way to "maximize calmness"... .and decided to go with that.

FF

[Woodchuck]

FF-
Thank you for the info/insight.  That is basically my plan at this point.

I am glad that the coparenting thing has worked out for you.  I am not very hopeful that it will work out for us simply because of her unquenchable need for control. Unlike your W, my W does not believe she has to respect me, let alone 'obey' me.  We attend church every Sunday but I believe that her ears and/heart are closed to anything that is said.  She has gone to the extreme of accusing me of colluding with the pastor to preach at her.  All I can do at this point is press on and try to be the best example that I can to our children.  Fortunately they are old enough to realize that things are not as they should be. 
This is slightly off topic but my S14 had the opportunity to share his testimony at church this weekend.  He was very open an honest of things he has struggled with and how he has grown.  When he sent me a draft of what he was going to talk about, I was shocked at how open he was willing to be with his struggles.  He asked me to sit down with him and finalize what he was going to share.  It was one of the best moments of my life seeing my S14 growing like this.  My W was aware of him working on what he was going to share and that he was asking for me to help him.  He had not included her at all.  The day before he was going to share it at church, she told him that he had to send her his draft to review or she was going to take away his phone.  He complied and sent it to her via email with a message stating that she was free to read it but that he was not going to change anything, it was his testimony and as long as he was being respectful he was not doing anything wrong.  He went on to tell her that no one is perfect and that she should not be ashamed of any imperfections that she may have.
I was very proud of him having the courage to tactfully stand up for what he thought was right but at the same time I was a bit sad that he had to handle things with his mom this way.  Anyway, I share that in large part to show that the children are at the age that they can see something is not right and will not bow to things they believe are wrong.

Back to the way things are with my W, she believes or at least acts as though she is the law and no one has the right to question her or challenge her.  As I have slowly changed the way I communicate over the last few months, she has become even more 'controlling' and angry.  I expect that she will choose to leave within the next several months or year if I keep up with what I have been doing.  I will have a plan in place and will set it in motion if I need to.
Thank you again for the encouragement and advice.

WC

[formflier]

There is a chance that once she realizes you won't back down... she will stay.

Leaving gets rid of you.  She wants you. 

We can't predict this for sure, but generally they don't want to be abandoned... or abandon.

We should probably kick around some times when you guys vied for control over kid decisions.  It's likely we can find a way for your influence to not be so triggering.

Whenever you get the time... post some of that.

All that being said, having your plan in place for her to leave is critical.  That way you can do your stuff from a place of strength.

FF

[ForeverDad]

There is a chance that once she realizes you won't back down... she will stay.

Until she is ready to leave or a big enough trigger arises... .Predictably unpredictable.

We can't predict this for sure, but generally they don't want to be abandoned... or abandon.

However, if she senses you might abandon her, she may try to abandon you first.
"Abandon before being abandoned."  Sadly, it can become a self-fulfilling scenario.

[formflier]

Until she is ready to leave or a big enough trigger arises... .Predictably unpredictable.

However, if she senses you might abandon her, she may try to abandon you first.
"Abandon before being abandoned."  Sadly, it can become a self-fulfilling scenario.

Sadly... the "do it to them before they do it to me" is a thing.  I don't have any personal experience in that.  Hopefully someone can help you figure out if she has these tendencies.

My guess would be that as you move forward with better tools and consistency... .you will get a sense of how often she "does" her threats.

If you properly "remove the fuel" and she "does the threat" anyway on small things... well... that's not a good sign.

How does it feel to you now?  Does she run her mouth... .or actually take action with what her mouth says?

FF

[Woodchuck]

We should probably kick around some times when you guys vied for control over kid decisions.  It's likely we can find a way for your influence to not be so triggering.

Whenever you get the time... post some of that.

One of the biggest points of contention has been over their education.  She has insisted on homeschooling them up until recently and 'blames' me for running her into the ground to the point where she was forced to put them in school.  My biggest concern with them being homeschooled wasn't the stereotypical 'social involvement', it was the fact that she seemed completely overwhelmed and stressed and did not enjoy it and that passed it's way onto the kids.  I voiced my opinion and her response was always that if I wanted them in school then I could go register them myself and make sure that they got to school and had everything they needed etc.  She knew full well that was not possible with my work schedule.  I would just drop it and then do what I could to help with the homeschooling but that was never enough.  It never is unless I am thinking 110% like her.  

The same thing goes for who the children are allowed to communicate with.  The only person they can freely communicate with is her sister.  They are not allowed to email their grandparents or aunts and uncles or give out the email addresses that we have for them.  everything goes through her account and is closely monitored.

[formflier]

So... how did they get into school?  I'm assuming from the story they are now in public school.

So... what happens if you facilitate the children contacting someone? 

I'm thinking boundaries... .she controls children's communication that flows through her accounts... .and you control the communication that goes through yours.

FF

[ForeverDad]

I paid for daycare, both before school and after school and during school breaks during my parenting time.  It was a struggle to handle the expense, but it was worth every penny.  Homeschooling with reasonably normal parents in charge can succeed with flying colors but when in the hands of a parent with a Personality Disorder, whether diagnosed or not, is a recipe for disaster.  There are various reasons to avoid homeschooling in the midst of that sort of conflict and dysfunction:  There are reports some parents homeschooled but the children did and learned nothing, setting them back academically.  Another issue is that many pwBPD view their children as extensions of themselves, they need the control over the kids' lives.  Another is that isolation is a typical tactic used to maintain control virtually every hour of the day, the isolation may be claimed to protect the kids from all the world's dangers but the kids need contact with other kids and families in order to develop socially.

[Panda39]

Homeschooling with reasonably normal parents in charge can succeed with flying colors but when in the hands of a parent with a Personality Disorder, whether diagnosed or not, is a recipe for disaster.  There are various reasons to avoid homeschooling in the midst of that sort of conflict and dysfunction:  There are reports some parents homeschooled but the children did and learned nothing, setting them back academically. 

My SO's uBPDxw did this with their oldest daughter.  Back during their separation mom had majority custody... .dad was every other weekend at the time.  She pulled their 15 year old out of school to do on-line homeschooling, against the wishes of her dad and the against the advice of her Teacher and School Principal. She did nothing for a year while living with her mother, dad tried everything he knew to get her back in school but possession of their daughter was not in his hands.  He offered to have her come over and he'd help her with her school work, for that matter her mother's sister offered the same thing, he tried talking with the folks at the school, he was so desperate at the end that he actually hoped she would be arrested for truancy.  His daughter (who is an very smart honor student) missing the first year of High School was one of the most painful things he faced during a rough divorce.  His daughter had a 0.0 GPA her first year of High School that affected her college options.

In my opinion it was about mom soothing her feelings of abandonment when her husband left.  Their oldest daughter was Parentified and Enmeshed with her mother.  Her job that year was to take care of her mother (and little sister).   It was also about controlling and brain washing the kids because she was running a Parental Alienation campaign back then too.

The High School episode was part of what the girls now call "the dark times" (the 2 years of high conflict during the divorce), but there is a happy ending.  D22 is now one semester away from graduating from college.  She is going to be a Teacher and is already Student Teaching.  She has "Grit" and we are really proud of her!

Panda39

[takingandsending]

I paid for daycare, both before school and after school and during school breaks during my parenting time.  It was a struggle to handle the expense, but it was worth every penny. 

WC - this is where I have now ended up with my xw. Because, if you do end up in divorce (not wishing this for you, simply advising), your wife sounds like she will make a large deal out of any of your custodial time she takes the kids while you are working. Think ahead. Best to plan for parallel parenting and do what you can to work toward co-parenting. It may not be possible. And, my xw similarly felt I had run her down by expecting ... .not to home school the kids, but simply get them to and pick them up from school. Heck, I even twisted my work schedule in knots to drop them off once/twice a week and pick them up once/week. I always encouraged xw to work or volunteer or do whatever would (hopefully) fulfill her, and I still ended up the a-hole that never respected her, never supported her, never ... .You get the picture. Don't look for reason; it is a fleeting resident in the mind of pwBPD.

[AnuDay]

Women will do this so that they can "play the field", have a free ride, have a safe place to stay, be there for the kids, etc. 
It's up to you.  It's a tough road.  I don't know if you can handle it emotionally.  I don't know if you want your children exposed to this or to grow up thinking it's ok.  Can you easily find another spouse? It's a tough proposition. 

[Woodchuck]

I spoke with a lawyer yesterday and there is no legal way to make her agree to or sign a plan until there has been a 12 month separation.  The 12 month separation is not a legal separation as that does not exist here.  I can have them draw up a parenting plan and they can serve it to her and ask her to sign it but she has no obligation to sign is and even if she does, the court will do nothing to enforce it or hold her accountable if she doesn't follow it.  I would have to sue her for not following it.  The lawyer told me that I am really between a rock and a hard spot.  I cannot move without selling the house.  I cannot kick her out of the the house.  I simply have to wait 12 months and prove that we were living apart under the same roof and then file for divorce.  There is a possibility of filing based on emotional/mental cruelty but that is a very tall order and not likely to work.  I am exhausted.

WC

[formflier]

  I am exhausted.

So... .make a list of the "behaviors" that really "suck the life out of you" or "exhaust" you.

Even better if you can "rank" those.

I'm not suggesting that if you "fix" or "avoid" those behaviors you should stay (or go).  What I am suggesting is that until you get some distance from those behaviors, it's going to be hard to think clearly about your future.

Big picture.  If she wants something from you "parenting plan"... .have her submit it to you.  Keep tossing the work back at her... vice doing it for her. 

Thoughts?

FF

[ForeverDad]

Beware that when you are at the 11th hour of those 12 months that you are prepared for her to make an attempt to sabotage you, that is, turn sweet, snuggly and whatever for intimacy.  I assume she is aware of that 12 month separate lives rule?  Can you see through any feigned shift to sweetness and intimate come-hither temptations?  Can you resist the temptress as you get closer to 12 months?

[Woodchuck]

Beware that when you are at the 11th hour of those 12 months that you are prepared for her to make an attempt to sabotage you, that is, turn sweet, snuggly and whatever for intimacy.  I assume she is aware of that 12 month separate lives rule?  Can you see through any feigned shift to sweetness and intimate come-hither temptations?  Can you resist the temptress as you get closer to 12 months?

I really want to but I don't know.  I honestly feel completely worn out at this point.  I should have left a LONG time ago.  I was reading through emails from 12+ years ago, even emails before we were married over the last few days.  The writing was always on the wall.

WC