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Author Topic: Servitude and submission with BPD  (Read 392 times)
Educated_Guess
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« on: August 27, 2018, 02:03:08 PM »

Hi all!  I'm just kinda thinking out loud in this post and looking for some feedback on this crazy train of thought I have.

In my multi-part epic retelling of my relationship story I have been posting on the Detaching board, I have gone into some detail about how my BPD ex was submissive (sub) throughout most of our relationship.  I became the dominant or directive person in the relationship not because that was what I wanted to be but because someone had to make decisions and make sure things were taken care of.  I worked and paid the bills. She took care of the house and made dinner and all that sort of stuff.  She would do things to serve me but she always told me that she wanted to do these things for me out of love.  I just figured it was her way of expressing love and didn't think much more about it.

One of her justifications for breaking up with me was that she did all the work in the relationship, served and supported me, while I did nothing and brought nothing of value to the relationship.  For some reason, the fact that I worked and completely supported her financially did not count as something of value.  Of course I did other things as far as being an emotionally supportive partner but of course those weren't recognized either.  If she could not recognize a tangible thing like that she did not have to work or pay for anything for over 3 years, how could she recognize the intangible, emotional forms of support I provided?

After the breakup, she kept mentioning BDSM to me (it had never really been a topic before).  D/s power exchange dynamics were her kink, particularly the mental/non-sexual forms of it. Her goal was to gain acceptance and approval through acts of service.  I believe she was also a bit fascinated with being punished for perceived transgressions.  Every time she talked about it, she would always talk about how the sub has the ultimate power in the relationship.  This was very attractive to her.

She believed that she was acting out the submissive role in our relationship but I was not a good Dominant (Dom).  I did not give her constant direction on what she should be doing.  I did not punish her when she failed at some task she was supposed to perform.  I was not living up to my responsibilities as the Dom.

After the break up, she did a fair amount to entice me into this type of relationship dynamic.  She offered to put me in contact with one of her online friends who was a Dom so that he could teach me what the D/s relationship dynamic was about.  She talked repeatedly about how she was an adherent to the Safe, Sane and Consensual (SSC) rules which states that all parties should remain safe, should have the mental capability to understand what they were doing and negotiate the terms in advance and provide consent.  She was all about SSC and talked about how wonderful it was.

Here's the thing though - I never was informed of or gave consent to participate in the D/s dynamic.  In fact, she mentioned it to me once at the beginning of the relationship and I told her it was not my thing or what I thought love should be about.  But yet she continued to build up this power dynamic tacitly without making me aware of what was happening or making it clear what her expectations were of me.  Apparently, this is a thing that subs can sometimes do - hide the pleasure they get from servitude from everyone including the person they have cast as their Dom.  This is frowned upon by some in the BDSM community because it violates the principle of consent.

The more that I contemplate this, the more I realize what a constant violation it was of me and my boundaries.  She subverted my autonomy and ability to make decisions of what I wanted our relationship to be and who I wanted to be within that relationship.  It goes against the grain of who I am as a person and she had no respect or concern for that.  As such, I feel it is a form of abuse or exploitation that existed under the surface throughout the entirety of our relationship.

Have any of you experienced something similar with your BPD partner?  If so, how did you figure it out?  What clues gave it away?  How did it make you feel while it was happening or after you figured it out?
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Educated_Guess
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2018, 02:52:54 PM »

Let me also just say that this is not a condemnation of BDSM.  It's not my thing, but I hold no judgement for those who engage in that in a healthy way.  I don't even consider this to fall into the bucket of BDSM since it did not involve consent.

The rest of this will be musings on the psychology behind the dynamic as played out by my ex and how it relates to BPD.  Feel free to skip if you are not a Psych nerd like me 

In Gunderson's theory of the 3 levels of emotional functioning with BPD, he states that in the first level the pwBPD will be primarily submissive.  This serves three purposes:  1) they feel they will be rejected if they express their true feelings of destructiveness and resentment 2) they feel that if they are submissive enough, something will be given to them that will allow them to deal with their feelings of dysphoria and emptiness (what this "something" is is elusive and undefined) and 3) they feel that they will gain and maintain control over the other person through submissive acts.

Those 3 things perfectly describe my BPD ex's behavior.  Gunderson might as well have been writing a case study on her, for real. 

Erich Fromm talks about this type of dynamic in The Art of Loving. He refers to this as a symbiotic union which he describes as consisting of sadism and masochism. 

The masochist is the passive/submissive person in the relationship.  "The masochistic person escapes from the unbearable feeling of isolation and separateness by making himself part and parcel of another person who directs him, guides him, protects him - who is his life and his oxygen, as it were. . . [The masochist] renounces his integrity, makes himself the instrument of somebody or something outside of himself; he need not solve the problem of living by productive activity."  In other words, if someone else is in control, the masochist has no need to navigate through the problems of living; the other is there to do all the heavy lifting.

The sadist is the active/dominant person in the relationship.  "The sadistic person wants to escape from his aloneness and his sense of imprisonment by making another person part and parcel of himself.  He inflates and enhances himself by incorporating another person, who worships him [EG's sidenote: worship=love bombing]." In other words, the sadist doesn't have to navigate through any deficits in his self image because he has the other to worship and serve him.

In this relationship dynamic, both persons need the other to exist and to fill something that they lack within.  They fuse together as one person but lose their personal integrity in doing so.  Maybe this is why breakups with pwBPD are so difficult and traumatizing - it feels as if you are severed from part of yourself.

Fromm also gives a description of what he calls "mature love".  It is a "union under the condition of preserving one's integrity, one's individuality.  Love is an active power in man; a power which breaks through the walls which separate man from his fellow men, which unites him with others; love makes him overcome the sense of isolation and separateness, yet it permits him to be himself, to retain his integrity.  In love the paradox occurs that two beings become one and yet remain two."

For full disclosure, let me say that I do see myself in the description of the sadist although these were motivations I was not consciously aware of at the time.  I used my BPD ex to accomplish the things I felt I could not either due to physical or mental limitations.  She did tasks around the house that I felt I could not do because of physical complications.  She complimented me and made me feel like I was a worthwhile person when I could not see or feel those things about myself.  A certain degree of things is normal in a healthy relationship but I depended on her too much to provide those things.

We both played out these relationship dynamics.  I think the difference between us was that I was not content to stay in this dynamic.  I understood what real, mature love was and it is where I wanted to get to although I had no idea how to do this.  Maybe this is part of what triggered her fear that I would eventually abandon her so she had to leave me first.

At any rate, this is how I'm understanding things right now.  Do any of you relate to what I have described here?  Did you see this same dynamic play out in your relationship?
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Turkish
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2018, 11:05:04 PM »

Wasn't it Gunderson who described the pwBPD as the "deflated false self?" As opposed to the NPD as the "inflated false self?"

Aside from the sexual or BDSM dynamic, of which I have no personal experience, do you feel that you had a Daddy-Daughter dynamic in some ways?
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2018, 11:27:38 PM »

Wasn't it Gunderson who described the pwBPD as the "deflated false self?" As opposed to the NPD as the "inflated false self?"

Aside from the sexual or BDSM dynamic, of which I have no personal experience, do you feel that you had a Daddy-Daughter dynamic in some ways?

Hi Turkish!  I’m not sure about the Gunderson quote but that sounds right. 

As for the whole BDSM thing, I have no experience with it either.  I was not a knowing and willing participant in it.  The ways in which I participated in that dynamic were not something I was conscious of at the time.

As for the parent-child dynamic, there were times when she acted like a child.  It made me uncomfortable.  She was diagnosed with Dissociative Identity Disorder.  I thought that when she was acting like a child that I must be seeing a separate child personality.  She never identified it as a separate personality but did say that she had children running around in her head.

The DID diagnosis added an extra layer of complexity to all of this.  There were certain things or behaviors that I probably would have picked up on as being red flags earlier in the relationship.  But because of the DID, I was willing to suspend judgment on them.  I thought they were aspects of DID that I didn’t understand.  Of course she fed this by telling me repeatedly that I did not understand DID and, therefore, didn’t understand her.
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2018, 11:44:08 PM »

DID would definitely be a much harder dynamic to deal with. 

From what I know, DID usually manifests itself due to severe childhood trauma, abuse and neglect.
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Educated_Guess
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2018, 09:45:43 AM »

DID would definitely be a much harder dynamic to deal with. 

From what I know, DID usually manifests itself due to severe childhood trauma, abuse and neglect.

Yes, my ex certainly experience childhood trauma. That is also common with BPD.

I'm not certain that the DID diagnosis is accurate.  I never saw anything in her behavior that would indicate DID as I understand it.  I talked with several psychologists and therapists about it (some of them were friends with my ex) and they also did not observe any behavior that would indicate DID.

There were also some concerns with the T who diagnosed her.  My ex told me that she had never thought she had multiple personalities until her T told her that she had DID.  Her T had diagnosed approximately 1/3 of the patients in her case load with DID which is just statistically improbable given that less than 1% of the population have the disorder.  She would not put DID down as a diagnosis in their charts.  She told the patients she diagnosed with DID that no one else in the health field would believe the diagnosis and that she was the only T in this state qualified to treat them.  This T would also have outside relationships with her patients including giving out her home phone number and meeting with them for social purposes on weekends.

I don't want to get into the details of how I know all of that because it would be such a long story.  The short version is that I was able to verify all of this through outside sources beyond just what my ex told me.

I think my ex was exploited by her T and that her T probably needed to feel special, needed to be needed and had a fascination for DID.  It makes me feel compassion for my ex.  She just wanted an answer for the dysphoria and the unstable sense of self and she was referred to a T who exploited that and also implanted the idea that no one else would believe the diagnosis.

Maybe the DID diagnosis was accurate.  I'm not qualified to diagnose and even if I were, you can't diagnose family.  I know my ex has textbook BPD behaviors.  BPD and DID can be comorbid disorders so it's not like it is an either/or situation.  But I never saw any evidence of DID and with the concerns with the T, I think there are sufficient reasons to doubt.
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2018, 09:51:20 AM »

That therapist sounds like a major  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) with regard to crossing the line beyond professionalism.
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2018, 09:17:21 PM »

Excerpt
The more that I contemplate this, the more I realize what a constant violation it was of me and my boundaries.  She subverted my autonomy and ability to make decisions of what I wanted our relationship to be and who I wanted to be within that relationship.  It goes against the grain of who I am as a person and she had no respect or concern for that.  As such, I feel it is a form of abuse or exploitation that existed under the surface throughout the entirety of our relationship.

Would it be fair to say you're starting to feel angry with her/exploited by her over boundary violations that you're just starting to understand?

Excerpt
Have any of you experienced something similar with your BPD partner?  If so, how did you figure it out?  What clues gave it away?  How did it make you feel while it was happening or after you figured it out?

Sort of.

I had an "aha" moment when I realized the relationship wasn't what I thought it was, and once that moment passed, there was no going back.  I couldn't un-see the falseness and it was the beginning of detaching for me. 

My ex was very controlling.  He likely viewed himself as dominant but wasn't explicit with me about it.  I think he may have thought he wanted a sub, but not really?  (I am feminine but not submissive.)  Anyway, we were often in conflict over that.  Him wanting to control me.  Me not wanting to be controlled and not believing he would find a controllable person attractive. 

One of the hallmarks of BPD is this push-pull, a desire for connection that's impossible to achieve because the BPD partner engages in behaviors that undermine or prevent true connection.

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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2018, 02:21:21 PM »

Would it be fair to say you're starting to feel angry with her/exploited by her over boundary violations that you're just starting to understand?

Hi Insom!  I'm just starting to understand that this was a thing that happened and what it means.  I wouldn't say that I'm angry about it. It takes a lot to make me angry; I'm usually pretty chill.  I would say that it is more mind blowing that there were all these hidden aspects of the relationship that I had no awareness of until I was forced to examine it.  It's like I was living a lie for 3 years and didn't even know it.

 
I had an "aha" moment when I realized the relationship wasn't what I thought it was, and once that moment passed, there was no going back.  I couldn't un-see the falseness and it was the beginning of detaching for me. 

I know exactly what you are describing here.  Once you see it, it is like a shift in your awareness and it is not possible to go back to your old way of perceiving things.  It's something like a moment of enlightenment but not a pleasant one.  I think there is a verse in Ecclesiastes that says something like "he who increaseth in wisdom increaseth also in sorrow"

One of the hallmarks of BPD is this push-pull, a desire for connection that's impossible to achieve because the BPD partner engages in behaviors that undermine or prevent true connection.

What do you think is behind the self sabotage?  It is a fear of change or of the unknown?  Maybe a fear of someone seeing the hollowness inside?  It's something I've been wondering about.
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2018, 08:21:31 AM »

E_G

One thing about your post and your questions / contemplation has really stuck out to me; it is this notion that you were unwitting, and you were provided no choice for consent in how the dynamic of the relationship went.

I honestly feel like that is almost each and every one of us! And it can really make you angry, no? I know that in my situation, what I perceived our relationship to be from the beginning was all false, as the falsehoods revealed themselves in time (but not before it was too late). Its almost like you are in two relationships. There is the relationship that you think you have (and have entered into), and then there is the relationship that the BPD is fabricating in their mind, and with you.  I honestly never consented to be in a relationship where everything I had ever done prior to being involved with the pwBPD would be used as evidence against me for rages and continual debasing (while her sordid past was entirely off-limits for any discussion). This among many things I did not agree to, or would have.

I think if we were given that choice at the outset, we certainly wouldn't agree and be involved with this relationship.  I believe they know that, which is why we all end up "swindled" into what the pwBPD chooses the relationship to be.
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2018, 09:01:15 PM »

E_G

One thing about your post and your questions / contemplation has really stuck out to me; it is this notion that you were unwitting, and you were provided no choice for consent in how the dynamic of the relationship went.

I honestly feel like that is almost each and every one of us! And it can really make you angry, no? I know that in my situation, what I perceived our relationship to be from the beginning was all false, as the falsehoods revealed themselves in time (but not before it was too late). Its almost like you are in two relationships. There is the relationship that you think you have (and have entered into), and then there is the relationship that the BPD is fabricating in their mind, and with you.  I honestly never consented to be in a relationship where everything I had ever done prior to being involved with the pwBPD would be used as evidence against me for rages and continual debasing (while her sordid past was entirely off-limits for any discussion). This among many things I did not agree to, or would have.

I think if we were given that choice at the outset, we certainly wouldn't agree and be involved with this relationship.  I believe they know that, which is why we all end up "swindled" into what the pwBPD chooses the relationship to be.

Hi XSurvivorX!  Oh my goodness, yes yes yes to everything you said here.  You've tapped into the bigger picture here that I just happened to stumble on to when thinking about the submissive dynamic and consent.

When I think about it, there was so much about the relationship that was just false and illusion, right down to the person she presented herself to be. I didn't realize that I didn't even know who she was until the breakup happened and she started to emulate the characteristics of the people who had become my replacements.  Who she was when she was with me was just who she thought that I would accept.

I would never have agreed to a relationship like that if I had known ahead of time.  Maybe that is what is at the core of the fear of abandonment.  If they show us who they are in the beginning, we wouldn't consent to the relationship.  However, they can never truly feel accepted and loved in a relationship because they have only presented a false self to us.  Similar to how you wouldn't get the feeling of achievement for getting a good grade on a test if you cheated on the test.  By their own actions, they block themselves from having the very thing they want to have.  That's really pretty tragic.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.  You've helped me connect some dots in my head.
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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2018, 09:17:53 AM »

I would never have agreed to a relationship like that if I had known ahead of time.  Maybe that is what is at the core of the fear of abandonment.  If they show us who they are in the beginning, we wouldn't consent to the relationship.  However, they can never truly feel accepted and loved in a relationship because they have only presented a false self to us.  Similar to how you wouldn't get the feeling of achievement for getting a good grade on a test if you cheated on the test.  By their own actions, they block themselves from having the very thing they want to have.  That's really pretty tragic.

You didn't even hit the nail on the head - you used the nail gun and the whole roof securely is in place!  You've got more insight into this particular situation than I think you realize.  It is tragic indeed.  Some people (better than I) can live with and feel empathy for that tragedy and will mold the relationship around it.  Others either cannot or will not.  It's all about the limits of the human mind and soul, and what someone ultimately is willing to do have this person in their lives.

I'd say you're better armed for future relationships as a result of your experiences here.
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2018, 02:02:42 PM »

Hi E-G,

there is a reason for the Safe Sane Consentual & Fun mantra in that community - none of that is a given. It takes reflection and balance to make it work - the very things that are missing in a pwBPD. She may have been talking but clearly was not walking the talk as you noted. Her doing all the work without asking and then demanding gratitude is controling behavior and not true service - in some way it is topping from the bottom.

I’m sceptical whether D/S relationships are at all workable for a pwBPD. Making all the decisions will always be exhausting. Handing off control in the long run will lead to loosing your sense of self and loss of responsibility. Actually also the controlling side may be suffering from ego erosion feeling too much responsibility. The only stable but often abusive constellation I can see is NPD/BPD which provides a steady stream of negativity to a pwBPD feeling validated in their emptyness.
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Educated_Guess
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2018, 01:42:34 PM »

Hi E-G,

there is a reason for the Safe Sane Consentual & Fun mantra in that community - none of that is a given. It takes reflection and balance to make it work - the very things that are missing in a pwBPD. She may have been talking but clearly was not walking the talk as you noted. Her doing all the work without asking and then demanding gratitude is controling behavior and not true service - in some way it is topping from the bottom.

I’m sceptical whether D/S relationships are at all workable for a pwBPD. Making all the decisions will always be exhausting. Handing off control in the long run will lead to loosing your sense of self and loss of responsibility. Actually also the controlling side may be suffering from ego erosion feeling too much responsibility. The only stable but often abusive constellation I can see is NPD/BPD which provides a steady stream of negativity to a pwBPD feeling validated in their emptyness.

Hi an0ught!  Thanks for sharing your perspective on this.  You've given me a lot to think about.

Yes, I think topping from the bottom is definitely a possibility here.  I gave my gratitude freely without demands  It wasn't until she split me black that she started saying I did not thank her. The thing that perplexed me the most was that she seemed to have the most anger in moments when I did not chastise or punish her for things that she thought that she failed at doing.  

During the fight that eventually led to the break up, we were discussing a task that she said she would complete by a specific deadline.  When she didn't complete it by the deadline, I said that there was no reason why we couldn't move the deadline because it was arbitrary anyway.  She her rage deepened when I said this.
 I didn't know that I was expected to act differently - that I was not responding to the cues that she should be punished for failing.

Having the responsibility all the time was exhausting.  My layman's understanding of the D/s dynamic is that these things are negotiated to last for a specific period of time.  This did not happen in my relationship.  

I think I did go through some ego erosion.  I became apathetic and semi-catatonic (I was dealing with depression symptoms).  I read once that catatonic behaviors almost always come from a type of paralysis caused by feeling responsible for too much.  Interestingly, she cited these depression symptoms during the breakup of the reasons why I am a horrible person and it was so awful to live with me.  
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