Evolution: from emotional regulator to nearly invisible

[Libra]

Hello,

I would like to start by saying that this board has taught me a lot. It has made me think about my past, about myself and my interactions with others from new angles. It has given me a more positive look on the future: We have the freedom and the responsibility to make our own choices  and to focus on our own core values.
To all the members that make this board the welcoming and supportive place it truly is: thank you.

I am sorry I don’t often post on other threads. Many messages have struck a chord and I often feel like reaching out, but I seem to lack the words to bring it across. I realize I have picked up a lot of sub-optimal ways of communicating from my FOO. I am working hard on really listening and on validation at the moment. It has a clear effect on interactions with my children, which is the greatest motivator there can be to keep working and moving forward!
I am currently reading “I don’t have to make everything all better” by Gary and Joy Lundberg. I can recommend it to anyone struggling with FOG and validation. Are there any other members that have read this book? Please share your opinions and experiences!

Another issue I have been working on is my relationship with my mother.  I am now able to identify FOG and to avoid JADE most of the time. I also thought I had made real progress in setting boundaries and staying true to my own core values. Recently, I realized however that instead of setting boundaries, I have been focusing on avoidance - in almost every sense of the word:
- Keeping LC so as not to have to interact with my mother unless really necessary (it is so hard to use the tools around her, and I fear falling back into my old patterns).
- Avoiding any ‘real’ talking that requires my mother to actually hear what I am saying, show empathy or give validation.
- Still having difficulty standing my ground when we do interact. She still cuts me short and talks right over me without listening.
- Still avoiding having to say ‘no’ to even the simplest request, because I know it will be taken as a personal rejection and this will result in her lashing out eventually.
 
I am struggling with the current state of this relationship. Since I am no longer willing to function as her emotional outlet, I seem to have become invisible. I am a link between her and her grandchildren. There is no interest whatsoever in what is going on in my life. Though my brain says I should rejoice in no longer being a target for her dysfunction, my heart is struggling. I keep telling myself that I cannot expect more from her whilst I am the one that chose to keep LC. But it still hurts when I call her on her landline after a 2 week holiday to catch up, and after 5 minutes of her telling about her life, she says she has to hang up because my brother is calling her on her mobile. I know he still calls her every day, I know she considers him a far better son than I am a daughter. But it still hurts.

She has not once tried to really reach out to me, as an individual of any meaning in her life. But then, I have also been keeping my distance. Should I simply accept the role of facilitator between her and my children? Maybe this is all she is able to manage and I should simply accept that it is what it is?

Thank you for reading and sharing,
Libra.

 

 

[Harri]

Hi Libra.  It is good to see you again and it is great to see you reaching out and making so much progress.  This stuff is so hard to figure out and yet you keep plugging away.   

It is okay if you don't post on other threads but I don't want you to not post because you think you have nothing to say or can't say it the right way.  Take a leap with us.  There is no right way and your voice is important and it matters.

I have not read the book but I know it is fairly popular on this site.  Here is a link to a thread we have on it for anyone who wants more info:  “I don’t have to make everything all better” by Gary and Joy Lundberg.  I haven't had a chance to read the thread I just linked but I will try to as it sounds like a very interesting and helpful book. 

Recently, I realized however that instead of setting boundaries, I have been focusing on avoidance - in almost every sense of the word:

Good job figuring this out!  This is one of the hardest things to see and so many people miss it.

It is okay to limit contact on days when you are feeling more vulnerable (for whatever reason) but avoidance as a whole is usually not a good way to heal and learn to define yourself for who you are not what your mother may think or how she sees you.   It takes a lot of energy and time to build new ways of interacting but every time you say no, it is a step in the right direction.    Build on your success.  Over time, you will feel stronger.  I think you are doing a great job with all of this.  It is hard, painful work.

The way your mother is responding to your changing your own behavior is not uncommon.  I am sorry she is reacting this way and that she still can't see you for who you are and can only see her own needs.  It hurts because it is hurtful.  Remember too you are dealing with a loss of more than the relationship you had.  You are also learning to deal with the loss of the responsibility and almost purpose you had in taking care of her.  It is a lot of change and a lot to grieve.  Yes, it is a relief but it is a loss as well.   Your mother will be drawn to your brother who has remained steady in his relationship with her.  He is not changing things and making her feel uncomfortable or threatened with loss of her self so of course she is going to think he is better.  Remember, as much as it hurts, and rightly so, she can't even see you.  Only her own needs and filters that distort her vision.

Allow yourself to grieve.  It is okay to feel sad.  It is okay to feel whatever you feel. 

 

[Learning2Thrive]

She has not once tried to really reach out to me, as an individual of any meaning in her life. But then, I have also been keeping my distance. Should I simply accept the role of facilitator between her and my children? Maybe this is all she is able to manage and I should simply accept that it is what it is?

  Libra, I am so glad to see you posting again.

These are questions only you can answer and it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. You can tweak it whenever you need to. All this said, I do recommend caution in allowing her lengthy unsupervised access to your children. If she has little respect for you as a person, imagine what she may say or do to undermine you as a parent and just generally inappropriate sharing? I learned this the hard way. Your experience my be different from mine. Your mother is a different person from mine. She may be totally fine with your kids.

I just wish I would have known then what I know now. I would have made different decisions.

Grieving the loss of the loving mother we never had is a lifelong journey to learning how to mother-nurture ourselves. We are worthy of love and nurture.

  sending you gentle hugs and smiles,

  L2T

[Libra]

Harri,

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. They always help me refocus and keep me on track to a better self. I hope you can use the same kind and supportive words for yourself in difficult times. 

It is okay to limit contact on days when you are feeling more vulnerable (for whatever reason) but avoidance as a whole is usually not a good way to heal and learn to define yourself ... .

I don't think I have actually said a clear and concise 'no' to her yet. I just haven't given her the chance to really ask me anything I would have to refuse. I know this is not a solution. I am working on communication and boundaries within my family unit first, where I feel safe and loved. As you said, I am happy I realize this now, and I will keep working, on and forward to the next step!

I am sorry she is reacting this way and that she still can't see you for who you are and can only see her own needs

Thank you for voicing this. Just reading someone else saying this helps me realize that it is not about me and who I am, but because of her and who SHE is. It somehow helped make the link from an intellectual to an emotional level.

You are also learning to deal with the loss of the responsibility and almost purpose you had in taking care of her.  It is a lot of change and a lot to grieve.  Yes, it is a relief but it is a loss as well.

This is so true! Changing these dynamics makes you feel so empty at times. It is not easy to fill up this void with other, healthier purposes and feelings. Even healing from some childhood hurt that had drifted into consciousness left me feeling empty: the hurt I had been carrying along was suddenly gone, and I felt incomplete somehow. It took me a while to heal up the gaping hole it had left.

L2T,
Thank you for your support and concern. Although you are grieving, you continue offering support to others on this board. I am so sorry for the loss of your pup. You are strong and caring and worthy of so much love! 

My mother was never physically abusive, violent or neglectful. She is emotionally deficient at many levels. I know that much of it is due to her own traumatic childhood. I am quite sure she does not hurt intentionally, but rather projects and uses others to regulate her emotions.
I do always gauge my childrens' emotional wellbeing when they get home. Up to now they are really happy to go visit her and do not seem troubled. I may be wrong of course, which is something that keeps nagging at the back of my mind. I am more worried though for when the children hit their teens. When they start detaching. That's when the sh*t hit the fan in my childhood (pardon my French). But I hope by then I will be able to walk beside them and help them set boundaries. Could this not be a way for them to learn healthy interactions and boundaries? Or is it too close to home for that?

Grieving the loss of the loving mother we never had is a lifelong journey to learning how to mother-nurture ourselves.

I think currently I am grieving the loss of my brother. I only recently accepted that I have not really had a brother for years now. When my parents divorced (in my teens), he took on a parental role, as well as becoming my moms emotional regulator. He couldn't handle it for long though. Got himself into a very unhealthy relationship (caretaker to a very egocentric partner) and moved out. That's when my mum really started falling apart emotionally. Or when I started to notice, because the burden was now on me. I lost my brother in those years. He is 4 years older. I remember playing games with him and the neighborhood kids in the fields behind our last house. He would be Rambo, and he'd come rescue us from an enemy camp.
Wow... .tears welling up now. I really do miss having a brother... .

Libra.

[Harri]

Hello Libra.  It is always good to see you here.   

This made me smile: "I will keep working, on and forward to the next step!"  I love the determination and anticipation of making progress.  How has you family been reacting to you setting boundaries and saying no?

This is so true! Changing these dynamics makes you feel so empty at times. It is not easy to fill up this void with other, healthier purposes and feelings. Even healing from some childhood hurt that had drifted into consciousness left me feeling empty: the hurt I had been carrying along was suddenly gone, and I felt incomplete somehow. It took me a while to heal up the gaping hole it had left.

Exactly.  Giving up the old hurts and behaviors is so dang hard and that empty feeling is, I think, why a lot of people stop working.  It hurts. 

I am so sorry to hear about your brother.  It hurts doesn't it?  I am lucky in that both my brother and I are determined to stay together in some ways.  It is not a typical brother sister relationship but at least we like each other now.  It wasn't always that way and my mother did her best to turn us against each other.  I do miss hanging out with him.  We used to have fun when we were young kids and I worshipped my older brother.  he took care of me too.  I talked about the relationship with my T and she said it was not surprising how we are given the abuse.  In her words, "there is too much history there".  That hurts but i am at a place of peace with it (mostly).

What do you miss the most about yours?

[Libra]

Hello Harri,

Thank you for your warm welcome and encouragement. 

How has you family been reacting to you setting boundaries and saying no?

Funny that…it actually works!
DH has complimented me a few times on how I handled some interactions. He was impressed. That made me feel proud... .which is a very special feeling for me!
At other – more frequent - times he tries to gently redirect me when I 'react' instead of 'interact'. That is harder to deal with. It makes me feel like a failure.
I am not a failure, I  KNOW that … nevertheless,  I still sometimes FEEL like a failure.
The children are masterminds in guilt-tripping and pleading. I used to get all defensive. I now try to validate but hold firm. It’s not easy, but it is a lot healthier!
I need to learn to use these tools when under stress or *attack*. But my mind turns into jelly at times like that. Work in progress…

What do you miss the most about yours?

I looked up to him in so many ways. He was always there. Very constant and reliable. No judging.
We were in the same boat together. We moved house a lot. From when I was  2 to 12 years old, we lived in 4 different countries and 7 different houses. We went to 6 different schools in 4 different languages. We always got thrown into new classes halfway the scholarly year.
I did not have any other family or real friends until I was 12. Everything evolved around our little family unit: my workaholic and alcoholic father, my mom, whom I now suspect has BPD traits, my older, steady brother and frail, clumsy, timid me.
In my teens my father disappeared from the scene and my brother moved out soon after. I very much regret having turned to him every time when my mom had one of her rages. I unwittingly pulled him into a Karpman triangle, thereby confirming the responsibility he deemed he had to take up when our father had left. I can see this now. I can also see how and why he ended up in so many unhealthy relationships. 
We cannot have a real adult conversation. He has built a wall of humor and ridicule. He uses this with our mother as well, with great success. He is a fortified, impenetrable fortress. I just wish we could talk, share emotions, experiences, memories. I hope he has found peace and happiness.
I don’t really have any childhood memories from before I was 8 years old. All I have are photographs, and the stories my mother used to tell. But I now know very well that she tends to change reality to fit her own truths, so my whole childhood feels as if it is built on quicksand.

Sorry.
Thanks for letting me vent.

Libra.

[Harri]

Funny that…it actually works!

  Good!

I am not a failure, I  KNOW that … nevertheless,  I still sometimes FEEL like a failure.

Fortunately, feelings do not equal facts right?  It is way to easy to focus on the negatives.  When I used to work, part of my job was training people to use new equipment, equipment they did not want and did not like... .but it improved their lives.  I would send them home after training and tell them when they came back I wanted them to have three positive things to tell me.  I knew the negatives would come too but I also knew if they did not notice positive stuff they did not do what I wanted them to do... .which was try.

So anyway, all that to say I think you might benefit by writing down how many times saying no or setting a boundary worked for you.  Don't keep track of the negatives for now, you are doing *that* without even trying.  Focus on the successes.  Then maybe once a week/month go back and look at your list.  I think Woolspinner actually wrote stuff (compliments I think) on a piece of paper and kept them in a jar (... .and all of a sudden I am hearing the Beatles singing Eleanor Rigby).  Sorry.

Kids really are little psychopaths aren't they?   <--- just kidding.  I love kids but they are tough.

Work in progress…

You may not be able to see your progress, but I can. 

I very much regret having turned to him every time when my mom had one of her rages. I unwittingly pulled him into a Karpman triangle, thereby confirming the responsibility he deemed he had to take up when our father had left. I can see this now. I can also see how and why he ended up in so many unhealthy relationships. 

You did what you knew.  It is hard though and sad.  I know I did things with my brother that were not healthy and even mean.  I apologized to him once as an adult.  I still cry when I think of all he had to deal with and how I was with him.  He was cool with it, but like me he has some ongoing issues that will always be there.   

We cannot have a real adult conversation. He has built a wall of humor and ridicule. He uses this with our mother as well, with great success. He is a fortified, impenetrable fortress. I just wish we could talk, share emotions, experiences, memories. I hope he has found peace and happiness.

After I read this earlier I had to just sit with it.  Have you ever said "I am sorry for how you were treated as a kid?"  I said that to my brother once and he said he was treated just fine.  I had/have to accept it.  He gets to choose his own path and that may or may not include seeing how his childhood was and how it still affects him today.

But I now know very well that she tends to change reality to fit her own truths, so my whole childhood feels as if it is built on quicksand.

I know this too.  Not knowing what is truth or distortions and delusions or manipulations.  The funny thing is that memories have been returning.  Not traumatic ones, but times that were fun and dare I say normal.  The games we would play as kids, stuff from school.  all stuff that was completely blank up until recently.  I keep forgetting to ask my T why that is happening. 

Sorry.  Thanks for letting me vent.

Wait.  You're sorry for having a good conversation and sharing?  Don't be sorry.  I am grateful.  thank you for sharing! 

[Libra]

I knew the negatives would come too but I also knew if they did not notice positive stuff they did not do what I wanted them to do... .which was try.

You have a talent Harri, a talent for encouraging people to turn their heads and minds in the right direction, towards the light. You do that here on these boards as well.
It makes me sad to know that your family did not see this. I hope YOU can see this now. 

you might benefit by writing down how many times saying no or setting a boundary worked for you.  Don't keep track of the negatives for now, you are doing *that* without even trying.  Focus on the successes.

That is an excellent idea. I will try to implement it.
Times are really hectic at the moment. I sometimes wonder how people on this board manage to find the time and headspace to work and heal. For me, it is a struggle. But I know it is important and I know that if I can learn and heal, it will also benefit the ones I care about most. Thankfully, that motivates me enough to  keep finding snippets of time to work on this stuff.

(... .and all of a sudden I am hearing the Beatles singing Eleanor Rigby).  Sorry.

You should be sorry too…that tune was stuck in my head all day! 
Such a sad song though…

Kids really are little psychopaths aren't they?   <--- just kidding.  I love kids but they are tough.

They are though! 
It is amazing how savvy they can be. It makes me wonder where that savviness goes when growing up.

Have you ever said "I am sorry for how you were treated as a kid?"

Honestly? The only times we have talked directly (on the ‘phone) in the last 5 years or so is when I called him after one of our mothers rages. He lives abroad. I tried to keep in touch with him initially, via mail, phone, text. I tried everything. But I never got any feedback. Mostly I didn’t even get a reply. So I stopped trying. He has had many difficult relationships. I think he still sees me as his little Sis that needs to be protected, not burdened with emotions. He sees me as an extra emotional burden to carry, and he has enough on his plate as is.
I remember the day I learnt my parents were (finally) divorcing. I had just arrived home from holiday work in a horse ranch (my escape-route in my teens). My mom and brother were waiting for me in the kitchen, which was strange, because my brother didn’t live at home anymore and never came visiting. My mom told me the news, and my brother gave me a huge hug. He had NEVER done that before. Were they expecting me to crumble emotionally? I still don’t get why. My parents’ relationship had been a nightmare for years. I was more relieved than anything else. Writing this now, I realize I may have had this the wrong way round. Maybe he was the one that needed the hug. He was on her side of the divide now. I very clearly remember feeling shut out. Seeing them as a team, and me on the outside. Maybe that’s where I lost him as a brother.

The funny thing is that memories have been returning.  Not traumatic ones, but times that were fun and dare I say normal.  The games we would play as kids, stuff from school.  all stuff that was completely blank up until recently.

How do you feel about these memories? Can you accept them at face value?

Wait.  You're sorry for having a good conversation and sharing?  Don't be sorry.  I am grateful.  thank you for sharing!

Thank you Harri. Thank you for showing me that talking about myself can be an acceptable conversation, and does not always have to be seen as selfish self-pity. 

Libra

[Harri]

Hi Libra!  sorry for the delay in response.  Sometimes life smacks me upside the head! 

Thank you for your kindness Libra.  I am starting to see that I do have some good qualities and even some that people like so that is progress.  Besides, who am I to tell someone they are wrong?    But thank you.  I think my family saw some good things in me but the focus was more on the negative.  That mixed in with my mothers psychotic episodes due to presumed and untreated schizophrenia and BPD made life interesting, the same as everyone here. 

Times are really hectic at the moment. I sometimes wonder how people on this board manage to find the time and headspace to work and heal. For me, it is a struggle.

It is easy for me as my life is pretty simple in many ways.  I know other people who are very busy but still post here and I think it is a combination of things that drives them.  Like you, the people here are determined to do better, to change and overcome decades of behavior.  It is quite inspiring and wonderful to see.

Have you started writing things down yet?  You can call it your 'Evidence of my Awesomeness' or something equally modest and unassuming... .

I think he still sees me as his little Sis that needs to be protected, not burdened with emotions. He sees me as an extra emotional burden to carry, and he has enough on his plate as is.

I get this.  My brother is the same way with me though he was extremely controlling before.  It has gotten better since we had a few conversations (read, I lost my cool and told him off not so nicely several years back), but his role of older protective brother is still there.  I can see it in his eyes and hear it in his tone.  Part of it is his care for me and I love that about him but most of it is his issues coming out.  I have to let him be and still be me.  He is always telling me to relax and not to worry... .even when I am doing no such thing (and would not tell him even if I were). 

My mom told me the news, and my brother gave me a huge hug. He had NEVER done that before. Were they expecting me to crumble emotionally? I still don’t get why. My parents’ relationship had been a nightmare for years. I was more relieved than anything else. Writing this now, I realize I may have had this the wrong way round. Maybe he was the one that needed the hug. He was on her side of the divide now. I very clearly remember feeling shut out. Seeing them as a team, and me on the outside. Maybe that’s where I lost him as a brother.

I think you nailed it when you said he probably needed the hug for himself.  That is very insightful.  I can see where a change like that would put a wedge between you a feeling where he felt the need to pick sides and where you felt left behind.  That hurts.

How do you feel about these memories? Can you accept them at face value?

I am okay with the memories.  They are bittersweet.  I like remembering the good stuff and that there was quite a lot of it.  I have to accept that things were set up in such a way that I never really had a chance to have more typical life experiences as a whole.  I had bits of it though and for that I am grateful.  My past is not all scary and while i knew it on some level I did wonder if I was minimizing the bad as I would say but I had some very good things happen to me to and my T's would look at me like I was crazy.   Take that!  I did not have huge stretches of good but I had some.  Damn it.

Libra, your voice is important and you add value to this board and my time here.  Don't stop sharing.  You are not selfish.  When you share yourself you are a gift.

[Libra]

Hi Harri,

Talking about delay in response... .

Have you started writing things down yet?  You can call it your 'Evidence of my Awesomeness' or something equally modest and unassuming... .

I haven't... .and knowing me, I won't if someone doesn't keep shoving it under my nose... .why bother writing positive things about yourself, right?

Maybe I should call it the Hopeful Analysis Regarding Reaction & Interaction.
Sorry for going overboard... .

Take that!  I did not have huge stretches of good but I had some.  Damn it.

Darn right you did... .and you had the absolute right to a whole lot more!
I am glad you can look back at some goodness as well. 

Libra.

[Learning2Thrive]

... .Maybe I should call it the Hopeful Analysis Regarding Reaction & Interaction.

I love this, Libra! 

L2T

[Harri]

Libra!  Whatever works... . 

I haven't... .and knowing me, I won't if someone doesn't keep shoving it under my nose... .why bother writing positive things about yourself, right?

This is me shoving it under your nose ---> __________

Just do it!     Or you can write them here! 

(I wish I knew how to insert pictures... .)

[Libra]

Harri,

Ouch!
And thank you.
I will try to start my Harri-book, full of positivity, tomorrow (it's evening here).

You have made me VERY curious about that picture... .

Libra.

[Libra]

and frail, clumsy, timid me.

Why did I write this about myself? This is not who I am. This is how my mother saw me as a child.
I know better now.

I read a good quote a while back:
My mother does not live in my head, she lives in her head.
Unfortunately, I forgot where I read it.

The last 2 years before my mothers' last rage in January, she used to - very frequently - tell me:
"You know, if I could start all over, I would never ever have children again. I am just not made for kids."
She would say this whilst sitting in our garden, sipping her coffee, watching her grandchildren.
=> I am SO grateful for the love and joy my children give me day to day (corny, I know).
They can be a real pain, but the pros so outdo the cons!

Here's another one she frequently used: "I feel a failure as a mother because your house is such an absolute mess."
=>I am proud of my messy home... .spending time with my family is far more important than having a perfectly clean house!

Rambling here... .need to get some stuff out... .

Libra.

[Harri]

Why did I write this about myself? This is not who I am. This is how my mother saw me as a child.
I know better now.

Congratulations.  You are well on your way to self differentiation!    Being able to be you without her bias and filters distorting your vision of you is wonderful and so important.  You are beginning to take your power back (cue inspiring music again!) and you are getting stronger and stronger. 

Let it out.  I process while writing and find it so helpful.

Plus, I love seeing you work things through.

[Woolspinner2000]

Keep going strong, Libra! You are doing this! 

 
Wools

[Libra]

All this talking of brothers has brought some stuff back to the foreground. I don't know how relevant they are, and I have no other place right now to process this, so I'll just put them here. (I do NOT want them in my positive Harri book!)

This goes back to when I was about 14.

We had been back in our country of origin for a year when my brother returned to our previous country to visit his friends (contrarily to me, he had actually made some really good friends there). He had had a really hard time adjusting and he missed his old mates. He was 18. I have no idea how long he was gone for, but it must have been at least 2 weeks. It was a 12 hour flight, so you wouldn't go there for the weekend.
Just before my brother left, dad got home very late and very drunk. As per usual, mum woke me up and told me to go sleep at dads side of the bed, and dad slumped into my bed. As per usual as well, my mattress got put out in the sun to dry the next day because dad had peed all over it. I hated this. This was the mattress I would have to sleep on in a couple of hours.
There must have been tension. Words must have been spoken. But I don't remember. I do remember that, one day shortly after, when my brother was on his trip, mum sat the two of us down in the living room and gave a speech. She did not want to continue this way. She wanted a divorce. She had it all planned: they would buy her a flat in town, close to our schools. After school, we could go to her, do our  homework, and have dinner. And dad could come get us there and we could spend the evenings and weekends with him,  in the house. 
I don't remember anything being said in reaction. I know I stormed up to my room. I was angry and very confused. Not about the divorce, but about the arrangement. I did NOT want to spend every evening with that drunk man who called himself our father. My mother had spent years despising him. I did not (no longer?) know him, except through the eyes of my mother. I was angry at my mother too for deciding over all our fates like that. I also felt guilty for being angry, heartless and selfish.
At that point dad came into my room. He crawled onto the bed next to me, curled up against me like a child, held me tight and started weeping. He reeked of alcohol and cigarettes. I was fuming inside. But I didn't move, and I let him weep. I don't remember anything more than that.
Mum didn't leave, of course. She was just as stuck in that relationship as dad was. We never talked about it again, and onto this day my brother doesn't even know this happened.
He came home from his trip even more disillusioned and displaced. He and his friends had grown apart. I think he felt lost and alone. So did I, at that point.

I think I am still angry at the both of them.

Thank you again for letting me vent.

Libra.

[Harri]

At that point dad came into my room. He crawled onto the bed next to me, curled up against me like a child, held me tight and started weeping. He reeked of alcohol and cigarettes. I was fuming inside. But I didn't move, and I let him weep. I don't remember anything more than that.

I am sorry he used you to comfort himself and that your mother allowed that to happen.  It is an emotional violation and put you in a position you never should have been placed in.  I am so sorry that they did that to you. 

The split in custody time that was suggested is interesting to say the least.  What do you think it says about your parents?  Just even discussing something like that with you at that time was inappropriate and wrong.

How familiar are you with parentification and emotional incest?

I am glad you shared.  You are not alone in these types of experiences unfortunately so know it is safe to share and many of us can relate.  We've got ya.

[Libra]

Harri,

Thank you for listening.

The split in custody time that was suggested is interesting to say the least.  What do you think it says about your parents?

My mother thought she had all our needs covered if we were clothed, fed and did our homework.
In the evenings and weekends we could function as a regulator for our father, to avoid him feeling too lonely, and to try and stem his drinking.
It fits with their plans a few years later: my father was living abroad for work again, and my mother planned on joining him as soon as I had turned 18, because then we could fend for ourselves.
Only my mother found out he was having an affair over there, and that was the last drop. She finally set a divorce in motion.

This is getting beyond confusing. I have been focusing on my relationship with my mother as it has been since my parents separated. It includes rages, tons of FOG, and a very clear feeling of never being good enough.This memory does not carry the same dynamics at all. I remember my mother being composed. No yelling, rather icy self control. How do you rime those 2 mothers? It makes me think my mind is playing tricks on me.

I do know that she saw herself as a victim in all this. She has problems with abandonment and shame, stemming from her own childhood (much like your mothers', with some nasty edges on it).
To her that affair was a real betrayal. She told me that she had sacrificed her whole self for her family, and it had all been taken away for good sex with a young gal. She told me she had consciously married someone ugly, thinking he would less likely betray her. I could go on... .I fear I'm a bit brainwashed when it comes down to my father... .
(And now I feel like I'm trying to justify their behaviour again)

How familiar are you with parentification and emotional incest?

I have read a bit about it here. I still have difficulty discerning between the two.

Again, thank you for listening.

Libra.

[Harri]

How are you doing today Libra?

Sounds like your mother did what is expected and required to keep CPS away (child protective services).  I word it that way not because I think it is wrong or was the reason she took care of your basic needs but to put this into perspective.  What else is an important part of you being a parent to your daughter?  You take care of her emotionally, mentally and make sure she knows what she will need to know to function as an independent adult.  Basic needs are good, but that is not enough to say you were not abused.

This is getting beyond confusing. I have been focusing on my relationship with my mother as it has been since my parents separated. It includes rages, tons of FOG, and a very clear feeling of never being good enough.This memory does not carry the same dynamics at all. I remember my mother being composed. No yelling, rather icy self control. How do you rime those 2 mothers? It makes me think my mind is playing tricks on me.

Your mom was all of those things Libra it is just certain things were more prominent at different times.  It is not uncommon for a person to become very angry and raging after a failed marriage... .but usually an emotionally healthy person will be able to work through it and not share inappropriately with their kids or be abusive about it.

I can see why it would be confusing, seeing the two extremes and why you would feel like your mind is playing tricks on you.  It is a lot to take in but your perspective is changing as your knowledge, understand and healing is taking off.  As hard as it is, it is good.  I hate that feeling that my world has been shook up though.

Take it slow and just Be for a little while.

 

[Libra]

Hi Harri,

I am doing fine really, thank you for asking. 

Memories are a strange things. Some small trifle resurfacing can hurt really badly, but writing down these memories and conclusions did nothing, emotionally.

Which again makes me think my mind is playing tricks on me.

Maybe I am still struggling with acceptance. But then, maybe I do not need complete acceptance to continue to move forward?

I have a lot of positive things to process and strive for thanks to this board. I am trying to focus on them for the time being.

The only snag is that my mother is back home after a 3-week holiday, and a little voice is telling me I should give her a call. It's a tiny voice compared to what it used to be, but it's still there... .

But enough about me... .how are YOU doing today, Harri? 

[Harri]

I am doing very well thank you.   

Maybe I am still struggling with acceptance. But then, maybe I do not need complete acceptance to continue to move forward?

Yes, you do not need complete acceptance to move forward.  Sometimes just acknowledging something is can be enough (thanks for that wisdom Kwamina!) and remember, acceptance is a process and sometimes needs to be repeated over and over.  It is a choice.

The only snag is that my mother is back home after a 3-week holiday, and a little voice is telling me I should give her a call. It's a tiny voice compared to what it used to be, but it's still there... .

I am glad the voice is smaller!  That is good.  Do you *want* to call your mother?

Take care

[Libra]

I am glad the voice is smaller!  That is good.  Do you *want* to call your mother?

*want*? Heck no, that has nothing whatsoever to do with it! 

I think it isn't out of fear or guilt (stated with absolute certainty and peace of mind ... .not). More out of a sense of duty (or is that the same as obligation?).
I don't feel the need to catch up, hear how she's doing  or hear how good or bad the food and the weather were. (I know,  how cold and callous of me for not caring about my mother... .).
She'll be in the country for 3 weeks, then she's off again on her next trip.
That's the last one of the year though, and then it's her birthday, S7s birthday, Christmass, New Year... .a lot of stressful days with a lot of expectations coming up.

I know now that my mother and I do not share a bond. That's just the way it is.
We have frequently used each other the past years. Yes, I say we. Though the scales are clearly tipping over to her side, I have leaned on her a few times as well.
I am not proud of this, it feels like abusing an unstable person. But I cannot change the past, I can only learn from it and try to do better in the future.

At this point in my life I think it may be healthy for me not to cut her off completely, but instead to learn healthy boundaries with her and to stand up for myself. I don't want to isolate her further. That feels too much like a punishment and does not go down well with my own set of values. I do not want to break her contact with the children. I am thinking more and more though that I will no longer let her have much - if any - alone-time with them. That will cost me dearly in effort: one babysit less (one of the ways I have 'used' her), and more time investment from me to keep them in touch with each other.

This all sounds so clear and easy   But these changes will cause great distress, and I suspect she will not be able to self-regulate. So it still isn't easy to do and not just tuck in my tail and fall into old patterns instead.

So, imagine for a minute that I actually DO stand up for myself. What would that entail?
It would mean that I do not let her talk right over me OR my children. Not in my own house. Not anywhere, actually.
I guess that's where boundaries come into play, right?
Ha. Well. I should then calmly turn to my mother, telling her in a non-defensive tone: "Mum, I know you don't always hear everything I say, though that has improved greatly thanks to your new hearing aids. I would really appreciate it though if you were to let me finish my sentences when I am talking." (and then bite my tongue and not add "It would be even nicer if you would actually hear what I am saying." )

Really? That just won't happen, will it? It's all so easy in theory, but - honestly - I cannot even begin to think about saying that to her face.

And there we go, back on the merry-go-round. 

I feel like a cold-hearted, calculated non-human for reasoning like this. But I am starting to believe that this is the only way I can keep any sort of contact with my mother.

Libra.

[Harri]

   Hi.

Duty and obligation might be the same.  It is hard to tell.  Are you thinking about this in terms of FOG?  Sometimes i think we get too caught up in the FOG article.  Fear, guilt, obligation... .they require our active participation to work as emotional blackmail though I think they can exist on their own (as in without being part of FOG)

That's the last one of the year though, and then it's her birthday, S7s birthday, Christmass, New Year... .a lot of stressful days with a lot of expectations coming up.

Take them one at a time and work them out here.  We've got ya.

I don't think it is cold and callous to not want to catch up with your mother.  it is honest.  It would cross into cold and callous if you shared those feelings with her in a blunt and cruel way but you are not doing that.  Feelings just are and it is okay to not want to talk with her.

We have frequently used each other the past years. Yes, I say we. Though the scales are clearly tipping over to her side, I have leaned on her a few times as well.
I am not proud of this, it feels like abusing an unstable person. But I cannot change the past, I can only learn from it and try to do better in the future.

This is an honest and brave admission and I think, more common than you might believe.  Usually there is an equal give and take but the price that comes with it is not worth it in many of these situations.  Now you can make better decisions.

At this point in my life I think it may be healthy for me not to cut her off completely, but instead to learn healthy boundaries with her and to stand up for myself. I don't want to isolate her further. That feels too much like a punishment and does not go down well with my own set of values. I do not want to break her contact with the children. I am thinking more and more though that I will no longer let her have much - if any - alone-time with them. That will cost me dearly in effort: one babysit less (one of the ways I have 'used' her), and more time investment from me to keep them in touch with each other.

I think this is a good choice for you as it will help you build skills and more importantly allow you to be true to your own values.  Nothing is decided forever though.  I made a choice with each and every interaction I had with my family, knowing I could end contact if I chose.  I think you are being wise and cautious.  I agree that no alone time with your kids is important though I can see where it would be very hard to do.

But these changes will cause great distress, and I suspect she will not be able to self-regulate. So it still isn't easy to do and not just tuck in my tail and fall into old patterns instead.

Keep working on it and build on your successes.  It is hard but it gets easier in time.

Really? That just won't happen, will it? It's all so easy in theory, but - honestly - I cannot even begin to think about saying that to her face.

This would be a skill you build up to.  It is not going to happen in one encounter.  Before i could be kind about it, I yelled, fought, caved in, etc.  Some battles just were not worth it.  It is a process.

I feel like a cold-hearted, calculated non-human for reasoning like this. But I am starting to believe that this is the only way I can keep any sort of contact with my mother.

Is it cold and calculating?  or is it changing a life time of patters and brainwashing (for lack of a better word)?  Our definition of kindness, generosity, family, helping, all of those need to be re-evaluated.

It is hard but good stuff to work on.

How's that Harri book coming?  though I think you should go with Liberating Independent Bold Rational Assertions would be a better name!

[Libra]

Hi! 
 

Duty and obligation might be the same.  It is hard to tell.  Are you thinking about this in terms of FOG?  Sometimes i think we get too caught up in the FOG article.

That is exactly what I mean. Can duty be just duty, without it being induced by FOG? I think it can. I think it can be a clear choice you make for yourself: wheighing the pros and cons and adding your own values in the mix.

I don't think it is cold and callous to not want to catch up with your mother.  it is honest.  It would cross into cold and callous if you shared those feelings with her in a blunt and cruel way but you are not doing that.  Feelings just are and it is okay to not want to talk with her.

Thank you, Harri. I keep forgetting that feelings just are. My T also kept coming back to this point: the difference between judgment and facts. Everything over-/hyper-/super-… is a judgment, not a fact. Though judgments can be heavily influenced by our upbringing, our social network, etc…they are a personal interpretation. They should not be treated as facts.

I think this is a good choice for you as it will help you build skills and more importantly allow you to be true to your own values.  Nothing is decided forever though.  I made a choice with each and every interaction I had with my family, knowing I could end contact if I chose.

Yes. I need to remember that commitment is not written in stone. It is a continuous process of evaluation and choice. The trick is to keep an overall view and not get sucked into FOG and judgments. And to stay true to your own self and your values. Piece of cake! 

This would be a skill you build up to.  It is not going to happen in one encounter

I know…the fall, get up and start over thingy again. Not my strongest point….I am too impatient and self-critical and want to get it right from before the start... .sigh... .

Some battles just were not worth it.  It is a process.

How do you determine which battles aren’t worth it, without undermining your own self? My current state of mind makes me hypersensitive (judgment!) to everything my mother might say. I sometimes feel I'm overstretching, looking for things that aren't there. I'm struggling with finding the right balance in not being 'run over', and accepting my mother as the imperfect human being she is (and others as well, at that).

I keep thinking of Pam LetGos thread regarding this:

For the longest time I would get frustrated that my Mom wasn't acting like I thought Moms should act , that is with compassion and understanding. No more .  I now understand and accept that that is not her.  And it is OK .  She is other wonderful things.  Now that I accept who she is her comments don't bother me like they used to. I am expecting them and just let them pass over me.  And since I no longer react to her comments we generally just move on .  I am managing my expectations of my Mom .  They are now more realistic .

I need to find a balance between boundaries to protect my own self and my values, and simply accepting that some things are the way they are. I cannot expect to suddenly have a loving, emphatic mother. So where do I go from here? What is acceptable to me? And how do I combine this with staying vigilant for when the downward spiral starts again?

Is it cold and calculating?

Maybe not. Maybe objective is a better word. The problem is that this does not take other peoples’ expectations into account, and so it can create disappointment, which can then be projected back and leave you to deal with other peoples’ feelings. Makes me end up thinking in circles, that!

How's that Harri book coming?  though I think you should go with Liberating Independent Bold Rational Assertions would be a better name!

It is all in my head, I swear! Not on paper yet though... .spending more time here... .one has to make choices you know... .
I shall call it my Liberating Independent Bold Rational  Hopeful Assertions Regarding Reaction & Interaction. English is not my native tongue, so I'm allowed a typo here and there   
 
Thank you Harri, for breaking down my ‘all-over-the-place’ posts and thinking them through with me. 

Libra.

[Libra]

So,
Childhood Emoitonal Neglect: 92
HSP: 84 (Skip moved this to the son/daughter board because I mentioned D9?)
Inner Critic: 7

I know these are but numbers, but labels. But I am the kind of person that needs those kind of 'factuals' to process/start accept something.
I am having a hard time processing these numbers.
I did these tests on Friday afternoon. Afterwards, I wanted to isolate. To curl up in a dark room and think things through. I was making all kinds of links between my current life and way of handling things and my childhood. I was also almost crumbling.

But I could not crumble. I had to go fetch the children. An hour later our closest friends (members of DHs' healthy extended family) would be at our doorstep with their 3 children. They would be staying the whole weekend. In a moment of goodwill I had suggested meeting up with my mother and the children on Monday for lunch and a walk in a park. She was texting me non-stop because she thought the park might be closed. 

So... .instead of turning inward and trying to make sense of all that was bubbling up, I shut down. I went back to a state that I know very well: no emotions, no self-pity. Everything will run smoothly and no-one will notice anything's amiss.  No-one will get me down dammit... .I will not be beaten down by emotions!

It is the first time I am conscious of this process. I could actually feel my jaw clench while driving home. I could feel all emotion being shoved away.
I am not happy with this. People around me are laughing and having fun. I am sitting with them, looking in. Why can they simply have fun? I want to be on their side. I do not want to be locked up in this quiet, dark pond.

I will try to get pull myself out of this next week, when I have room for self-reflection.

Meanwhile, the show will go on.

Libra.

[Kwamina]

Hi Libra

When you are ready for it, maybe we can help you process this together.

I am having a hard time processing these numbers.

Why do you think you are having such a hard time processing these numbers? What do these numbers tell you? Do you perhaps feel like you've maybe been in denial about the severity of what you've been through?

I was making all kinds of links between my current life and way of handling things and my childhood. I was also almost crumbling.

Could you tell us a bit more about the links you were making? In what ways do you believe your childhood has affected how you handle things now in your adult life?

When you say 'almost crumbling', do you mean that you felt like this was too much too handle/process right now?

So... .instead of turning inward and trying to make sense of all that was bubbling up, I shut down. I went back to a state that I know very well: no emotions, no self-pity. Everything will run smoothly and no-one will notice anything's amiss.  No-one will get me down dammit... .I will not be beaten down by emotions!

This sounds like a coping mechanism you might have developed during childhood to help you get through the difficult situations. Would you say this is an accurate assessment? When was the last time you remember going into this 'emotionless' state?

It is the first time I am conscious of this process. I could actually feel my jaw clench while driving home. I could feel all emotion being shoved away.

This awareness I consider a good thing. We cannot change what we do not see and do not acknowledge. You however, actually are able to recognize what is going on and that is the first step in being able to make a change. Can you think of other things you could do to cope instead of shoving your emotions away?

How does the thought of sitting with and through your emotions make you feel?

Take care

The Analytic Board Parrot (yeah I know, I ask a lot of questions, but that's just the Way of the Parrot)

[Harri]

Hi Libra.

Can duty be just duty, without it being induced by FOG? I think it can. I think it can be a clear choice you make for yourself: wheighing the pros and cons and adding your own values in the mix.

I agree.  I think it is good that you can see this choice as being a part of you and your values rather than being a victim of sorts of the manipulations of others.

Everything over-/hyper-/super-… is a judgment, not a fact. Though judgments can be heavily influenced by our upbringing, our social network, etc…they are a personal interpretation. They should not be treated as facts

. I never heard this before.  Thank you for sharing this.  

How do you determine which battles aren’t worth it, without undermining your own self? My current state of mind makes me hypersensitive (judgment!) to everything my mother might say. I sometimes feel I'm overstretching, looking for things that aren't there. I'm struggling with finding the right balance in not being 'run over', and accepting my mother as the imperfect human being she is (and others as well, at that).

Excellent question.  I think the answer will come with more separation and self awareness.  Just knowing we may be over-reacting and stepping into our BPDs personal issues or territory is a good thing.  

I need to find a balance between boundaries to protect my own self and my values, and simply accepting that some things are the way they are. I cannot expect to suddenly have a loving, emphatic mother. So where do I go from here? What is acceptable to me? And how do I combine this with staying vigilant for when the downward spiral starts again?

Where do you go?  You keep forging ahead, while watching, learning and detaching more and more.  I think it is common for us to at first be too strict with boundaries and fiercely defending them to the point of causing more problems sometimes or seeing things that are not there.  We learn, and while our values that determine our boundaries may not change, how we choose to enforce our boundaries can change with time and practice.  Detaching with love and kindness takes practice.  It is something I was not able to achieve before my parents died but I have come closer now... .working in my mind and my heart.  I am angry still, very much so, but far more accepting and able to see them for who they are much more clearly.  It is easier for me though as they can no longer hurt me.  But detaching with love and kindness is still possible sometimes.  Is that what you are striving for?  That is what I see in Pam Letgo's comments.

The problem is that this does not take other peoples’ expectations into account, and so it can create disappointment, which can then be projected back and leave you to deal with other peoples’ feelings. Makes me end up thinking in circles, that!

Does it leave you with their feelings to deal with?  Isn't that crossing over into their space and getting on their side of the street?  We can't live according to another persons projections... .

Libra, the numbers for your assessment just are.  I retook both of them and got different numbers this time around.  I actually scored higher on the highly sensitive one this time!  They are just an overview.  It is perfectly okay for your brain to say Nope, not gonna do this now and give yourself a rest.  

I am very glad Kwamina stepped in and asked such great questions.  We can definitely work together to process this.  BTW, he has a way of digging into the heart of the issue and helping us focus so when you can, see what his comments and questions bring up for you.  In the meantime, we've got you, always.  

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Libra, 

I'm popping in to say hi.   

You remind me of myself so much and this process of unentangling from all the stuff of growing up with a BPD parent. It's painful pulling off all those briars from the bushes that stick to us in places we can't even see until we brush up against them and find the prickers deeply embedded in our clothing fibers and poking through to our tender skin. The remnants refuse to come out. Our lives are so much like this picture. We can sense the irritation yet cannot locate just where the poking is exactly. Darn work to heal anyway, right? But the desire to be better, to be whole drives us on, and I am so thankful for that for myself and also for you!   It's the resilience and determination that we have to survive. You are a survivor!

When I feel like running away and hiding, I've finally learned to see which one of my inner kids is hiding. For sure someone is, and quite often it is my 5 year old Lil' Wools. It's me when I was that age (or around that age), not being heard or getting in trouble or being shamed. Typically when she is really upset, I find her hiding in the back corner of the dark closet in my childhood bedroom, hoping her uBPDm will not find her. She is also hiding from the shame she feels because her mom just unloaded on her-parallel feelings in the present from a shaming incident that took place with someone, which then triggers those same emotions that I had when I was Lil' Wools.

Can you relate? What place and age does this time of emotional retreat take you to in your own life?

My Lil' Wools usually needs a hug or quiet company when I discover that she is feeling scared and alone.

 
Wools

[zachira]

Libra,
I just wanted to thank you for your post. It has helped me realize that my going LC with my family members with BPD has resulted in my becoming more and more invisible, as I am no longer serving as the target for their projections, and I am not the convenient emotional regulator I once was.