mother with dementia

[yamada]

My 83 year old mother has dementia. She is still fairly functional. I have rung hotlines and things to figure out what is her BPD, anxiety and dementia.
And the people are so kind and so sweet about this poor little lady  who has been struck down awfully. I dont know how to say.
"Look she was a nasty, manipulative , self centred, controlling, evil, relationship destroying,  trouble making, bitch before this and she is still trying to do it, only she is weakened and I just see it as nothing more than karma. I feel nothing. But I dont say that.
And my sister  her mini me is the same. Only this time when the assumption was always that we "never tell anything to Dad because he gets upset". I am now telling Dad every time I have asked my sister for help and she wont do it and if he gets upset so be it.
 Interesting that my sister who lives far away says, they tell her I am doing all the wrong stuff.  So I ask them "is this true as we need to tweak what we are doing"   and they deny telling her anything.
So I ask my sister who is lying her or mum., It is interesting that after all these years of telling me I am a liar that they have put themselves in an interesting position.
And my sister who managed to get power of attorney is doing her best to keep me in the dark about everything even though I am managing them. Doesnt look good for a court.
Are personality disorders so in sightless that they believe everyone will agree with them even when the evidence shows the opposite. My sister says she is taking an AVO out on me because I am abusive.  She starts issues with passive aggressive provocation and bullying  and when I hold tight .I am abusive. Interesting how the word 'abuse" is abused by this type.
I dont talk I only email or text.

[HappyChappy]

I’m so sorry you are having to deal with this. It sounds quiet stressful. But I share your frustration with the main points you brought up.

For example, abusive people accusing you of being abusive. I  note my BPD often accuses others of her own bad behaviour, but it is a very effective way of stopping people accusing them of the same thing, unfortunately. “You only saying that because I did.” Attack is the best form of defence.

Your point about a BPD expecting everyone else to believe them despite the fact showing otherwise.  The best way to win a debate with an NPD/BPD, is  by bringing it back to the facts. It won’ sway a BPD or someone with deep prejudice, but it should impress a jury of 12 members of the public. Probably won’t sway those that have been groomed by a BPD/NPD which is why they tend to behaviour better among strangers. The best way to lie is to never break cover, add to the fact they have no empathy, which means they assume we think like they do, and we lie like they do. Look at Trump’s audacious lies, and the hard core supporters that believe him.

You cover a lot of ground in your post. What aspect of all this do you find the hardest to deal with ?

Out of interest, has dementia changed any of the BPD behavior ? I had a BPD family  member , who  flipped who her golden child was, because she got people mixed up.

[isilme]

For example, abusive people accusing you of being abusive

It's called projection.  They avoid blame by putting what they do off all on you, even if it means re-writing history to do it.  Another way this happens would be they yell at you, you yell back, then they are "why are you yelling at me?"  And make themselves the victim, and you the aggressor, to fit their world view.

BPD has a lot of its roots tied to blame and shame avoidance.  Many of their actions and behaviors can be traced back to avoiding shame or blame in some manner.  This can be something big, like who dropped a glass and why, to hiding shame at soemthing we'd find silly, but it cuts them like a knife, like someone forgetting to comb their hair.  Their coping skills are like a child.  They never got far past the kicking-my-heels-on-the-floor-to-get-my-way stage of emotional coping with negative emotions, but sadly, their bodies grew up, and they are intelligent enough to function in many capacities.  I can physically restrain a small child, and make them take a nap to better regulate.  I cannot do this with an adult, and another adult has the agency and ability to cause all manner of havoc, regardless of having toddler level emotional maturity.

The best way to win a debate with an NPD/BPD, is  by bringing it back to the facts.

Gonna have to diverge from this.  I don't feel there IS a "winning the debate".  If you fall into a conversation where you are Justifying, Arguing, Defending or Explaining, the time for facts is over, you are JADEing and it's time to disengage.  You are just making them angrier and wasting your time. 

Back to the toddler.  A toddler in full on tantrum rage is not going to listen to reason.  You simply have to wait it out, ignoring them often works well, and then, after the tears are dried, you "might" in a simple fashion, explain just why a fork in a socket is not a good idea.  In a high emotional state, that same toddler is likely to stick it in, ignoring consequences, just to taunt you, and then will blame you for them hurting themselves. 

Disengage from an adult acting like a toddler.  Say "I will speak to you later when we can talk."  Or say nothing.  Just save yourself the grief of a useless conversation that only serves to vent their out of control emotions onto you.  Since they can't manage them, they expect YOU to do it for them, and this is how the learned to cope.  The only way to change their coping is to be less available if you can. 

As for the power of attorney... .can it be contested?  Is someone else willing to take up that responsibility?  What are the consequences of her being the main person responsible for your mother's health decisions?  What kinds of things are you managing that your sister is hampering?  Can you disengage and refuse to be responsible? 

[yamada]

Wow I am thankful for the response. I often think of Baby Jane when I think of both of them. You are right about the argument. I will stop. Even when the evidence is in their face they argue opposite. My sister organised my parents and wills all behind my back,. And Power of Attorney. Our is about being able to financially manage their money. Sadly I have to wait until one dies or they lose capacity.
Its the stuff you see on the television .

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi yamada and welcome! 

So glad to have you join us. You've had some great thoughts shared with you already by HC and isilme. They are right that it doesn't do much good to share with someone who is like a toddler. I know it's not easy, but it is well worth the steps it takes to get out of the craziness. It is so so easy to get pulled in! My mom was an uBPD too, and how well I understand because I got pulled in too.

Here is an article that will have some helpful thoughts about Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation and Guilt (FOG). Another one that I think may help you is about BPD BEHAVIORS: Extinction Bursts.

What do you think about these articles?

 
Wools

[Turkish]

While I wouldn't use those strong terms about my mother (because she was a Hermit-Waif, not Witch-Queen, and my childhood was long ago), I get you biting your tongue.  I got a lot of grief from people,  some I never met to whom my mom gave my number.  They couldn't understand how my slightly addled mother ended up in her situation (of her own making, decades coming). And I felt that they expected me to wave a magic wand to rescue her.  Tried that,  got accused of criminal elder abuse, and insulted in front of others when she denied that I had helped her financially.

And my sister who managed to get power of attorney is doing her best to keep me in the dark about everything even though I am managing them. Doesnt look good for a court.

Who doesn't this look good for do you think? Are you thinking of going to court?

[yamada]

last night my fathers lawyer sent me details of their wills and it seems my father is a liar,. I never realised how much he lied to protect himself from consequences of being told he is wrong. I went around to ask if its true and he verbally exploded,. and it was then I realised that all my life the three of them have called me abusive and yet he verbally bellows and me and when I call him on the bellowing and the lies he yells at me to get out of the house and never come back because its all about poor him. "What about me!" And I realise my mother and sister (baby janes) have facilitated this by 'not upsetting him" My mother then came up into my face and started to punch at me stopping only about 6 inches from my face. She as well made kicking motions. I said 'do it you never used to stop so do it" And she started yelling to get out. I followed my father to the front porch and she came out with my things and threw them on the porch floor. I said pick them up and she kicked them into the garden. I yelled you are liars and you have been lying to me for months and now you are yelling at me. Mum said you started it. I said he started it with lies. When I was picking up my stuff, I said to her "are you happy you humiliated me' and she said I can do it again.and I walked. my father looked awful. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a heart attack only this time I will not be blamed like his first one. My parting words were "i want you to go inside and think about every bit of revolting behaviour you have exhibited. "
I have had in the last three hours panic attacks suicidal thoughts of self harm and the most loathing, Now I am back and I am safe and they are gone
I believe today my parents died. I now have to protect myself from being lured back wanting parents who love and value me.
how do you protect yourself from that and how do I grieve everything both emotional and tangible I have just lost. I have to give up hope. I dont know how.
Thank goodness i am seeing the therapist on tuesday
I think by getting out they can have their own triangle and they can tear each other apart.

[Harri]

Hi yamada.  Your situation sounds so painful and confusing with everyone playing a role in perpetuating the same old family dynamic.  Do you think it is time for you to step back and allow your sister and parents to figure things out on their own?  I ask because if everyone is lying there is not much you can do.

Are you familiar with our article titled Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle?  It can be hard to see how everyone in the family plays a role in the dynamic and it is very difficult to break patterns that have been going on for years, but once you see the dynamics play out like you did, it makes it easier to distance yourself.  By easier I do not mean it won't be hard, but if you keep the Karpman drama triangle in mind, it is easier to resist allowing yourself to be pulled into the very situations that tend to blow up.

What do you think?

[yamada]

yes. sometimes things have to happen in order for me to really get it. My father doesnt get up set. he has an explosive temper when frustrated. A lot of things are so much clearer.  I cannot walk back into a toxic dance that will never change. it is dangerous. It is dangerous for my mental health. It upsets me that these people fool everyone. well thats my thinking and maybe not the reality. My father said get out and never come back. And therefore I am adhering. to it and the decision is his. He can never say I walked away. They can tear themselves apart because I am now out of the room. And now I understand the whole reason of my sisters attacks. my fathers pride and intense belief that he is never wrong and poor him will not let him take responsibility would be very surprised. So now this gang up on me is over and they can tear each other apart because this scapegoat is gone

[Turkish]

Are you feeling done, as of this is it,  NC?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi yamada,

Keep sharing. This is tough stuff. How are you today? You have a safe place to live and be?

I'm glad you are taking a break and giving yourself time to heal.

 
Wools

[yamada]

Its a relief that they did what they did because I can see it a lot more clearer. Yesterday I went into meltdown and became suicidal and I realised the true disturbance and horror this ongoing has cause for my husband and kids. My husband says I reasct so badly to triggers and I do. I have always hated it and I I emotionally react and sort it then I get peace and yet I dont
My son said my sister and I are like two kids fighting over a button and he is right.  I dont even know why we fight except it is her trying to drag me into the dymanics and I get set up and dragged in. They are like a toxic addiction or DV when I think this time it will be different. They will respect me and boundaries and they dont. They still play the mind numbing games of my child hood and I think the only think I will control is me. I think the arrival of an ambulance was the bottom I hit. They will never show insight or respo[nsibilty and I have to accept my father is as bad as the other two. We were OK when we had a distant relationship, but I got played by my sister into do what she wanted in order to prove I wasnt what she said. maybe I have to stand and let them go... .just let them go in order to move on

[Harri]

Hi yamada.  I am so sorry that this is happening.  I am concerned for you.  You said you were suicidal yesterday.  Are you still feeling that way?  Have you felt that way before?  

I think the arrival of an ambulance was the bottom I hit.

 What does this mean?

At this point, I think letting go is the right thing to do.  You need to take care of you and develop some strength and skills that will help you work through all the hurts that have been building.  As you said, you can only control you and part of that is taking care of yourself.  You are worthy of self-care and self-protection.  

EDIT:  I sent you suicide hotline info out of an abundance of caution.  Please take good care of yourself.

[yamada]

Thanks I am giving lifeline a workout and I have been better today. I am seeing my psychologist tomorrow and have been writing. Like I am writing letters to someone.  I am going to have to make some major decisions as I am not spending my life like this. It may mean letting them go again  or going back to a very distant relationship and not getting into the drama and letting go of some unrealistic thoughts about how it can be rather than how it is,. ignorance is easier rather than the constantly finding out all the secrets and going back to the  crazy dance of deception and lies and anger. I cant go anywhere I love my kids too much

[Harri]

Hi!

I am relieved to hear you are doing better today and that you are reaching out for help.  Is the psychologist you see tomorrow one you have been working with or are they new to you? 

I agree that you will need to make some big decisions but remember it can be a slow process to get there.  Just keep working at it and reaching out for help okay?  Can I also suggest that you try to post here more regularly?  We can offer support in addition to any professional help and we can help you work with things like communication tools, boundaries and just understanding what goes on in your family system.  Learning these things will benefit you regardless of the level of contact you choose to have with them.  They can help you keep centered rather than, as you say, being dragged back in.

Just something to think about.   It is also good to have another source of support.  Do not underestimate how much healing and learning you can do here on the site.  It has been invaluable to me over the years.

Thank you for getting back to me here and I hope you keep improving.   

[Panda39]

Hi Yamada,

I've been following your story.

I cant go anywhere I love my kids too much

Hang on to this, I went through a period of depression, that involved suicidal thoughts in the past and that is what I held on to.  Your husband and your kids love and need you and so do your friends.  I know when things get dark that can be hard to remember.  You are loved and you are cared for.  We here care too.     We all have families we are born into and the families we choose.  The family you choose will be there for you through this... .your husband, your children and your friends.

In terms of how you proceed with your Family of Origin (FOO), many of us when upset or triggered can go from one extreme (let's say enmeshed) to the other extreme (No Contact).  I want to remind you that there are many shades of gray in between those two things and that things can be flexible and move up and down that scale of gray.

It could be that you decide your FOO is simply to toxic and cut ties.  It could be that you go no contact for now, to take care of you, to learn new skills, to put some distance between you to think things through more clearly and once stronger with new skills and tools you reach out again.  It could be you continue a relationship which includes strong boundaries, it could be you go low contact, you see your FOO only in public when everyone is on their best behavior, or you only communicate via email.  You could try different things and see what works best for you.

So what I'm getting at is just because you decide to do something today, does not mean that it has to be set in stone, that there is flexibility and fluidity to things.

I'm so glad you reached out here and have your Therapist, your husband, your children, and friends in the "real" world.
 You have love and support, you can get through this. 

Take Care,
Panda39



 

[yamada]

Wow! I am so lucky to have this page. I have been here since 2002 when it was all so raw. I thought I had it right and didnt realise how I need to check in every now and then with the specialist and I was clever that I had the sense that  if I was going to be more involved in my parents lives I would need support. It was just magic that I found this psychologist who is so amazing with trauma.
she suggested hospital but after a while we decided that it is not good or needed yet. The plan is I stay away from them until I can deal how they are and that may be never. Even though my father kicked me out and said never come back I have chosen to leave and not go back.I want to be safe and learn the tricks and how to spot the manipulation that makes me soften and open the door always with a unrealistic hope that they would be decent people.  I have to recover from it and take my life and mind back. I am so grateful for your support. So they can stay in the their dysfunctional world and I am out and learning how not to get dragged into the cylone. I cannto change them and the only thing I can manage is me and how it effects me and my life and faily.

[Turkish]

I don't think it's wrong to take your father's words and stay away,  but turn it into doing this for you in order for you to take time and to heal.  Contact may likely happen again add this seems to be a pattern,  yes?

[Panda39]

Hi Yamada,

I like the plan, taking time away from your FOO and focus on taking care of you, learning more about BPD behaviors and then re-evaluate how you want to proceed.  Turkish asks an interesting question, what happens if they contact you before you are ready to contact them?  Do you have a plan on how you would handle that?

Panda39

[yamada]

You are lovely.
 One thing I know, when I am confronted unawares I freeze. So today I came up with some responses in case that happens so they are in my head without having to think. I have done this before with things

" I have been advised that it is not good for me to be around you,so can you please leave"
I cannot imagine them trying to make things work because they would be justifying themselves and their behaviour and my sister would be enforcing that to justify her own position

If they say sorry which is unlikely ... .it means they would have to admit their behaviour

"Thank you however , I have been advised that it is not good for me to be around you,so can you please leave"

If they stay there I lock the door and go inside.
Once i enter into a discussion they have their foot in my brain door and I wont have it.
Its like a drug or addiction. I need to withdraw

and I am Ok with not going back. today I had the urge to call them and see if they are Ok... .but its just my way of wanting in... .thats the addictitve quality of these relationships.and thats why I have to stay away.

[Panda39]

So it sounds like you think they might just show up at your house?  What if you just don't answer the door? That way you don't engage with them at all.  Do you think they would try calling or emailing?  Social Media Facebook? Do you work they might try reaching you there too.

In this electronic age in particular we all seem to have so many points of access, just something to keep in mind.

I want to share a couple of things to put in your tool belt.  One is JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain), you want to try not to JADE when you do it feeds the BPD person with more things to argue about and you can find yourself in a circular argument that goes no where.

Your family members if they show up are going to be there to attempt to boundary bust and put you back in the same role you have always played in the family dynamic... .they will be there to get things back to the dysfunction status quo where they are comfortable (it's also what you are used to).  They will most likely not respect your boundary and will try to engage you in a conversation/argument.

So when you say... .
"Thank you however , I have been advised that it is not good for me to be around you,so can you please leave"

They might say "advised" who advised you not to see your family?  Who have you been talking to?

Try not to get sucked into JADEing... .you do not need to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain your decision.  If you do JADE then you have opened the door to engagement with them.  Not JADEing will likely feel uncomfortable, it is something new for you, and it may take practice.

If they challenge your request, I would repeat... .Please leave. If they stay, then as you planned go into the house.

More on JADE... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

The other thing to try and be aware of is FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail.  Sometimes this can be hard to see when you are in it, but it is something to try and have an awareness of.

So when you say... .
"Thank you however , I have been advised that it is not good for me to be around you,so can you please leave"

You might get, well fine then we will never talk to you again and we'll tell the rest of the family what a horrible person you are (Fear), or you might get something like, we're family we can't work this out unless you talk to us, you're the one that is causing the problem because you won't cooperate. (Family Obligation & Guilt).

And here is were you start wanting to JADE... .try to resist the urge.

Again repeat, please leave and go inside as planned.

More on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Yamada,
I'm going to repeat here... .these tools are new to you, they will feel uncomfortable until you have some practice, you will likely not perfectly execute using them for awhile, you may get flustered and not use them at all... .do not beat yourself up if things don't go perfectly. None of us are perfect when learning this stuff.  You are learning new skills and like learning anything else they will take time to perfect.  I have confidence you can get there in time. 

today I had the urge to call them and see if they are Ok

They are responsible for their own feelings and well being, they are all adults, you are not responsible for whether they are ok or not.  Focus on you and what you need, that is your responsibility. 

Take Care,
Panda39

[Harri]

Freezing can be a typical response in people who have experienced trauma.  In addition to the links provided by Panda, check out this article on pete-walker.com
The 4Fs: A Trauma Typology in Complex PTSD See if anything resonates.

I am glad you are following through on getting help and that you are coming back here as well.  We can help you as well.

Take good care,
Harri

[yamada]

Wow JADE!  I have always thought if I show logic and process they will get it. The more logic and such I showed the angrier they  get . They dont want to understand and they never will. They need to protect their righteousness and their position to justify what they have done. Today I had to ring their age care provider who told me what wonderful people they are and was outright hostile. And again I realised they have played the part of the victim older people. This is not new they have always played the victim and portrayed me as the aggressive nutbag.
Last night I wrote an angry letter to my sister with all the evidence and sent-it to my friend who said dont send it.
She was right. My sister will use any means to hurt me and make me feel crazy and will never ever own her behaviour.
So for some stupid reason I keep re reading everything and I decided this was a type of self harm. I was hurting myself with my fear of a rubbish reputation because they will tell everyone how horrible are I am and everyone will believe them rather than me. And who is everyone? That has always been Mums threat. "Everyone knows how bad you really are"

So I have moved all the 'evidence' onto usb and external hard drives and deleted the lot.

And I feel relief. I got rid of the triggers rather than going over and over trying to find my non craziness.
I have to stop the triggers that send my head in a downward spiral.
I dont think  they will come around. they are too victim med and my fathers cognition isnt great except when bellowing at me.
How ever I need to be collating stuff so my sister doesnt run away with money

[Harri]

Hi yamada.  I think you chose well when you deleted that stuff.  Rehashing stuff in your head can be harmful.  There is no way to use logic and reason when dealing with unreasonable mentally ill people.  Trying to come up with the best way to talk with someone or find just the right thing to say to get through to them is sometimes a way to convince ourselves we have done everything possible to try.  It is okay to say no.  It is okay to say you are finished.

How are you feeling mentally now that you have been able to talk with a therapist?  I have been concerned about you.  This is a big emotional *thing* that can trigger a lot.  Hopefully leading to break throughs and healing (and yes, i see the deleting of the info as a break through).  If you ever want to write a letter to them you can write it here too.  Sending it would not be wise and I am glad your friend advised you of that. 

Good work!

[Panda39]

So for some stupid reason I keep re reading everything and I decided this was a type of self harm. I was hurting myself with my fear of a rubbish reputation because they will tell everyone how horrible are I am and everyone will believe them rather than me. And who is everyone? That has always been Mums threat. "Everyone knows how bad you really are"

Yamada, the FOG is clearing    Your mother's threat is the "Fear" part of FOG... .Your mother's threat is emotional blackmail.

You don't buy into it anymore and that threat no longer has any power.

You're absolutely right, who is everyone? And do you need these "everyone" in your life if they don't believe and support you? Of course not.  

The people who love and support you would never believe the junk you mom says, some other people might believe initially and then figure it out and still others will buy it hook, line and sinker.  That last group you don't need to have in your life.  

You choose who "everyone" is in your life.

Panda39

[Learning2Thrive]

... .
The people who love and support you would never believe the junk you mom says, some other people might believe initially and then figure it out and still others will buy it hook, line and sinker.  That last group you don't need to have in your life.  

You choose who "everyone" is in your life.

  What Wise Panda said.

  L2T

[yamada]

youa re so lovely. Harri I am fragile but the swings are less intense. I am still wandering around the house starting many things and not finishing. However I have decided that it was a huge trauma a big retriggering and confrontation of trauma I had forgotten and denied. And that was like getting hit by a bus. I am starting to accept that now. I have no suicidal self harm thoughts. I am trying to work with my strengths. of which I cant find much ATM. Everyday I am setting myself three tasks. Today its having a shower, ironing  and photographing things for ebay. It has been alot better since I have put all the paperwork away. 
yesterday hurt because I had been painted the bad guy again to someone I didnt know.
I dont think they will come around. They are too busy blaming me and my sister will be making the most of it.
I have decided I cannot be anything but superficial with people I cannot trust,. And I dont want to be around them.
My kids even said that they are waiting for the day when my sisters daughter comes knocking on their door and says whats wrong with my mother. Greed is one thing.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Yamada, 

When you hear the words,

That has always been Mums threat. "Everyone knows how bad you really are"

, does this remind you of any other time in your life when you were younger and heard these same words? If so, how old were you when you remember hearing them? How old do you feel in the present when you hear these words, and it sends you into a tailspin?

In my own life, I find so often that the winds of the past fan the flames of the present. My uBPDm would say things to me that were awful, as well as controlling. It's apparent that there are attempts at control going on by your family. My curoisity about how old you feel and your answer can give you a clue as to where you need to go back to and look and find healing, at the source. Truly it isn't about you and what you've done. It's about the need to control you.

 
Wools

[yamada]

iI know I am in an acute  something from the whole incident. I am trying not to be consumed by it, but the thoughts and pictures just keep coming into my head and I am practising some from of mindfulness . Its different when its family. All I know is deception is more important than me.

[Harri]

Hi.  I am glad you are practicing Mindfulness as it can help you with your own emotions.

Have you thought that perhaps the thoughts and pictures are coming into your head because you are ready to take a closer look or does it feel more like rumination to you?