Intro: Setting Boundaries, They are Being Ignored

[Tired in MD]

Hello,  just started reading Walking on Eggshells book.  Learning a lot.  Some of it a little scary.  Spouse of 30 yrs demonstrating some BPD behaviors.   I tolerated too long, due to my own codependency traits.  Am resisting temptation to just bail on relationship.  Am just learning to set boundaries.  They are being ignored.  Wondering how long to keep trying.  Glad I found this

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi Tired in MD,



That is a very popular book! I think you will find many of the free readings here are not only great supplements to that book, but can open up an even broader ranges of ideas for you to consider. Be sure you check out all the lessons to the right of the board here.

Perhaps these readings will be helpful to you as well:

Boundaries and Values

Boundaries and Examples

Can you give us some examples of what you are doing with boundaries please? It is important to be sure they are not meant to punish another person, but instead to protect yourself and help you sustain your sense of values.

sincerely, pearl.

[Panda39]

Hi tired in MD,

Pearlsw, gave you some great links to more on boundaries. 

Boundaries aren't just about having boundaries and expecting your Husband to respect them, boundaries also involve enforcement.  People with BPD (pwBPD) are excellent Boundary Busters.

I often share this really simplified example of boundaries (we've all seen this at the grocery store)... .

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no... .kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no again... .kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom still says no... .kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum (Extinction Burst). What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want.  What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up. This doesn't mean though that the little kid won't test that boundary again the next time they go to the store.  The key is to consistently enforce the boundary.

It sounds like you are out of practice with boundaries in terms of your Husband.  It will take time and practice for you to get better at it, you're using a muscle you haven't used in a while.  Just stick with it and you will get better at it.

Can you share an example of one of the boundaries you've set, we might be able to coach you on how to make it more effective.

Be aware that like the little kid above as you get better at enforcing boundaries your husband could push back harder and things could get worse before they get better.  Holding your ground and consistency are important.

I wanted to share information on an Extinction Burst, not to scare you but to let you know what you might see so you are not surprised... .

Extinction Burst

The phenomenon of behaviour temporarily getting worse, not better when the reinforcement stops.

More on Extinction Burst... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

Take Care,
Panda39

[Tired in MD]

Well, have  been married to this person for 30 yrs.  Never set boundaries,  thought compromise was what you do in a marriage.  Now retired and have time to realize something is wrong.  Examined my behavior first and realized some codependency habits on my part.  Decided to speak up.  Asked for a review and change on how bills are paid.  She said she would but not yet.  Asked her to set dates for the sale of her deceased mother's house which is empty and costing us money.  She refused.  Told her to stop listening in on my phone conversations.  Again no response.   

Seems to me I have big problems.  Just realizing how big they are by gaining knowledge from books.  She refuses counselling,  I have gone on my own.  Found it expensive and not very helpful. 

[pearlsw]

Well, have  been married to this person for 30 yrs.  Never set boundaries, thought compromise was what you do in a marriage.  

Seems to me I have big problems.  Just realizing how big they are by gaining knowledge from books.  She refuses counselling,  I have gone on my own.  Found it expensive and not very helpful.  

Hi Tired in MD,

I can see how that can happen! We learn to compromise and don't always realize we are sort of "giving away the farm" when the other person has these kinds of issues.

Was your own counseling for the codependency issues you mention? Or did you have another focus? What made it feel unhelpful?

There is a lot of information here that help you kick off some changes on your own. It does take a big rethink of one's behavior though, and some applied effort, but noticeable changes in the relationship may be possible.

Why does she listen in on your conversations? Why won't she move on selling the house? Why is she delaying on the change with the bills?

Post-retirement are you spending more time together? Has this led to more issues?

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Tired in MD]

Hello Pearl,

I moved out of the house at one time due to frustration,  and lack of hope about the future.  Now I am back in the house.  So now she is threatened that someone may be helping me leave again.  At this point I am only staying in the relationship out of guilt.  If I leave,  she is alone.  No children.  Counselling was not helpful because the focus was more on the Bowen theory of family relations than my issues of codependency,  her possible BPD and my behavior in the relationship.  It is so tempting to just walk away rather than spend the few healthy years I have left dealing with this.  You are right in that this site has a load of information.   Attending Codependents Anonymous meetings and am also looking for a sponsor for some support and coaching.  Thanks much for your responses.

[pearlsw]

Hi Tired in MD,

So there is no more love, just feelings of guilt? How does she feel about you? She is worried you might leave? Is there a chance of that?

What are you hoping for out of the coaching?

Is there any part of the relationship that you feel good about?

take care, pearl.

p.s. Also thanks Panda39 for that helpful description of boundaries for all of us!

[Tired in MD]

Hello Pearl,

Well she is afraid I will leave her.  She is estranged from her only sister.   My over functioning does not help and I am working on that.  My feelings are I am tired of the constant arguing and verbal assaults.  I want some peace.  But have feelings of guilt if I just leave. 

I was thinking some coaching could help me with setting boundaries and how assertive I should be without bullying which she always accuses me of.  I do not agree.  I feel I need to set deadlines for consequences.  That will lead to increased stress on her part and increase in BPD behaviors.  Also when confronted,  which happens often over nothing,  I do not respond well.  I always need time to think of how to respond because the convesation is so crazy.  She persist in arguing until I am forced to leave the house for a few hours.

Problem is I really did enjoy myself while I was away for 7  months.  Not so much now that I am back in the house.  I want to live in a smaller house in a warmer climate.  She is 100% against moving.  So for now I compromise.  Very tired.

[Panda39]

Some information you might find helpful... .

Do's & Don'ts in a BPD Relationship... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62266.0

... .I was thinking some coaching could help me with setting boundaries and how assertive I should be without bullying which she always accuses me of. 

If your wife is anything like my significant other's (SO's) undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) my guess is she is really the bully.  This sounds like projection to me... .projecting her feelings about herself on to you. This could also be FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional black mail... .making you feel guilty for speaking up, asking for what you want or need.

More on Projection... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0

More on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

 
Also when confronted,  which happens often over nothing,  I do not respond well.  I always need time to think of how to respond because the conversation is so crazy.  She persist in arguing until I am forced to leave the house for a few hours.

Leaving the situation when you are being verbally abused is actually good you do not need to sit there and take it. Leaving gives everyone a chance to de-escalate and think, you are also setting a boundary when you do this.  The boundary is, if you verbally abuse me I will leave. 

I'm also curious what is behind the guilt you mention if you were to decide to leave your marriage?  And is guilt a good reason to stay in your marriage?

Panda39

[Tired in MD]

Hello,  thanks very much for the links for more information about this.  I feel like I have finally found a source for info directly related to my situation.  I understand that my behavior has contributed to the situation,  (codependent),  but boy sometimes the behavior I see and the conversations we have are pretty bizarre.  My struggle with guilt feelings as far as I can tell are related to several factors.
My religion, and the views my faith has on marriage,  I do talk with some priests about this;

Also,  my wife is 67 and while she has no health issues,  she tires easily and is not in the best physical shape.  The house we live in is big and requires a lot of maint,  her mother's house also requires much attention.   So I struggle with leaving and forcing her to deal with that stuff on her own.  Also,  she has isolated herself over the years and I can see where she tries to isolate me also.  If I leave she would be lonely and that bothers me.  But I know I need to take care of myself.

 This is why I moved back home.  For my own peace of mind,  I wanted to give her an opportunity to work on the issues I need to change.  I wanted to very clearly communicate that I was ready to leave if things did not improve.  Now after several months I see no activity.  So my thinking is I have to specify a target date of when I need to see some change or I am leaving.   I think if I can do that,  and do not get a response then I will have peace of mind leaving and pursuing legal separation.

Thank you again for the links to additional info.

[Radcliff]

Setting a target date for her to change by is a sure setup for failure.  She is not likely to see the need for change.  If she has BPD or BPD traits, she is going to have a hard time seeing your side of things.

Nobody wants you to be a martyr.  It's tough living with someone with BPD.  But with 30 years invested, I'd encourage you to spend some time learning the tools here and then assess where you are.  You can change your own behavior rapidly.  You cannot change hers directly.

Have you had a chance to read that boundary article referenced above?  One of the key principles of boundaries is that they are not about controlling what someone else does.  They are about defining what you'll do (or not do) in order to protect yourself.  They define your behavior, not hers.  For example, if she is yelling and screaming at you, you may say, "I need to take a break for 20 minutes and go on a walk to clear my head.  I'll be back in just a bit, in a better place to talk to you."  You've used your behavior to protect yourself.  As a secondary benefit, she may eventually realize that it doesn't pay to yell at you, but that comes second, and is not the primary aim of a boundary.  With this in mind, getting her to sell her mother's house is not a great example of a time to use a boundary (we can certainly talk about the house sale challenge; it is likely to require a combination of tools over time).

With this new understanding of boundaries in mind, can you think of a boundary that you'd like to implement, a definition of your own behavior in response to something, to protect yourself?

WW

[Panda39]

Nobody wants you to be a martyr.  It's tough living with someone with BPD.  But with 30 years invested, I'd encourage you to spend some time learning the tools here and then assess where you are.  You can change your own behavior rapidly.  You cannot change hers directly.

I wanted to echo Radcliff.  The only people we truly control are ourselves.  You will never be able to make your wife or anyone for that matter do something they don't want to do.  But what you can do is change your approach, which can change someone's reaction... .kind of like a ripple effect.

Panda39

[Tired in MD]

Well I did spend some time reading about boundaries here.  Also Dr Cloud's book on the subject.  One thing that struck me is that a big part of boundaries is that they have to be based on your values, that is where you start.  So one of the first things I am doing is to stop lying to my wife.  I confess that I did do this because often times when I express and opinion or say I am doing something she disagrees with it triggers a angry verbal response, with shouting, insults and name calling.  Over the years I just got tired and numb and lied to protect myself.  Now, no more.   OK,  so suppose you ask the person you are living with to stop coming into a room and listen in on all your phone conversations and you get no response.  As I see it the only way to enforce the boundary is to leave the house to have a phone conversation.  This of course triggers more anger and shouting.


At 65 yrs old,  I guess I wonder what the relationship gives me that makes all of this worth wild.  How do you get a spouse to make a will so that the state does not get all your money when you die.  Especially if one of the reasons for not making a will is that I will want to leave some money to my family which she is adamantly opposed to.    Her habit is to say yes I will do it and not commit to a time frame,  instead of saying the truth which is no I do not want to do that.

[pearlsw]

Well I did spend some time reading about boundaries here.  

At 65 yrs old,  I guess I wonder what the relationship gives me that makes all of this worth wild.

Hi Tired in MD,

So you want your wife to make a will so her assets do not go the state when she passes away at some point, but she doesn't seem to get around to this?

When arguments get out of hand you walk away from the name calling, anger, etc.?

What does the relationship give you at this point? Is there any part of it that you enjoy? Are there other areas of life that bring you enjoyment?

What kinds of things were you lying to her about? (It is understandable that this unfortunate dynamic can develop, happens to a lot of folks!)

take care, pearl.

[Tired in MD]

Hello Pearl, 

In reflection,  it seems whenever I wanted to do something without my wife,  like go on a week bike ride with friends,  or have dinner/lunch with family I would get a angry reaction.   One of my weaknesses is avoiding confrontation, (especially since it always involved shouting and guilt trips)  So I would lie and avoid telling the truth until I absolutely had to to avoid the argument.  Many times I just would do what she wants.  This is something I am trying to correct.   In my wildest dreams I never in my life thought going to lunch with friends would cause a fight.  I invite her but I realized it is not about her not going it is about me going without her.   Now I just accept and prepare for the argument and tell the truth. 

I found myself lying to family and friends about the marriage and our house,   when they ask me why we never invite anyone to our house.  I am now expressing myself,  while trying to respect my wife's privacy.

Also,  I started reading Dr. Forward's on Emotional Blackmail.   I can see some of our behavior in her discussions.  I find it somewhat strange but relieving when you realize many other people are experiencing the same behavior and problems you are.  I keep reminding myself that the focus has to be on my behavior. 

In answer to your question,  I am not really sure if I am getting anything I value out of the marriage.   If honest,  I am probably only staying out of guilt.  I plan to present opportunities to her for some changes.  I am not going to pressure her.   I am struggling to satisfy my right to be happy and enjoy the fruits of working all my life,  while still being able to honor the commitment to her.  It is hard when it is just one sided.  I could be wrong but that is how it seems to me.

[pearlsw]

Hi Tired in MD,

One way you might understand her being upset when you do things is because of her possible "abandonment issues" - a hallmark of this illness. Some members have found success by letting their partners know very clearly when they will be back and also announcing plans with others while also arranging plans with their partners so their partners have that kind of comfort/plan to hold on to so their severe feelings of abandonment are not triggered (or have the chance to be less extreme).

I understand the urge to see our partners as the problem. I certainly thought this at times. But, it is really important to do all you can to change your own behavior, reactions, and thought patterns if you want to try to make things more livable. When you think how much that is asking of yourself, then turn that around and think about what that is asking of her. Perhaps that can also generate a bit of compassion. She doesn't see herself as the problem, or perhaps even part of the problem, I'm guessing.

I know it might seem odd, but even one person can make a great deal of change in a relationship by trying out and sticking to new communication patterns.

What kinds of changes are you needing to see from her to be able to go on? How much are you willing to change?

take care, pearl. 

[Tired in MD]

Hello Pearl,  Thank you very much for your thoughts,  with reflection,  I feel they are spot on.  Every time  I leave the house to go anywhere,  ( store, church, or gym)  I specifically have to identify the time I will be back.  This is frustrating to me but I try to accommodate her needs.

I wonder if I could get your thoughts on another aspect of this.  At what point is it fair to pursue my needs.   Specifically,  if I express opinions that I want to downsize our house,  and I offer compromise that it can be to an area that is acceptable to her although not ideal to me,  and I receive zero cooperation,  then what.  Do I just give in and say never mind,  and ignore my feelings? 

I guess this dilemma applies to several issues in our raltionship.  Is it fair, and how strongly do I pursue my needs,  in areas such as the house and an estate plan without being a bully or pressuring or using emotional blackmail.   My feeling at this point is I know I cannot control behavior,  and I do not want to.  But if there is no compromise on important issues,  I am tired of trying,  and accepting outcomes to disagreements that in all honesty leave me very angry.

[pearlsw]

Hello Pearl,  Thank you very much for your thoughts.

Hi Tired in MD,

On the first point, it doesn't have to be as restrictive and horrible as it might sound. First, keep in mind your partner has abandonment issues and it is about helping them feel secure and it can be a healthy way to connect. If it was something that made you feel awful, and controlled, or trapped it would not be good. It is basically finding a way to work with things - another person's emotional sensitivity.

Does she demand this information of you? Hold you to a precise time? What makes it frustrating? I've had to deal with this issue too. I had relationships with nons before and never had to deal with any difficulty at all around this stuff previously, so it was not an easy adjustment and I can't say I always handled it perfectly!

So, if you have plans with your friends on Thursday evening, you tell her, but you could also let her know when to expect you back. If you like, you can simultaneously arrange something you will do with her so she has that to look forward and hold onto. You can encourage her to do things that keep her busy and happy while you are away. It is really important not to let yourself become isolated in the relationship or lose all of your happiness in trying to keep the peace.

You definitely don't want to ignore your own feelings or walk on eggshells all the time. That is no way to live. I know it is not easy. My relationship felt like an ongoing, rolling crisis for years. In my case, medication made a huge difference for my SO and made him much easier to interact with.

On this housing issue... .I think the amount of compromise might depend on her level of functioning to be honest. Is she at a point where she is sabotaging the relationship, fighting you on every effort at advancement, financially destructive, or is she able to work with you if you just stated things differently? (Practicing and working with the tools here)

Can you explain about the estate planning a bit? Having more details, a problem we can work on a bit will bring the threat to the notice of other members. I am no expert on this, but we can check around and invite other members to join us here who may be able to help us go further on this point!

Can you write out what you would want to say to her in terms of the downsizing? It could help us to see if you are accidentally saying things that are making things worse.

This stuff isn't always intuitive, it takes time to relearn our communication. I have to work on it all the time! It's not easy, some days I just wanna eat cookies and be lazy! ;)

sincerely, pearl.

[Tired in MD]

Hi Pearl,  I am starting to tell her when I will be back every time I leave the house.  I guess I am somewhat shocked that this is now the new normal.  I am seeing this action now as not so much a restriction/burden on me as something I have to do for her peace of mind.  This is all new and the reality of it is just sinking in.

The estate planning issue involves first of all the fact that our money is separate, (her choice).  Secondly she refuses to tell me how much money she has.  She insist that my name is on all her accounts, and her name is on all my  accounts.   I know that she received a very large sum of money from her family estate because her brother in law told me how much his wife received.  His wife shared equally in the estate along with my wife.

So,  I feel confident that my wife is financially secure.  So if I die,  I would like to give a portion of my money to my niece and nephew,  while at the same time leaving money for my wife,  even though I believe she does not need it.   By law, if I die before her she then owns all the money and can decide what to do with it.  I know my niece and nephew will not receive anything.   I can see now that this estate issue is part of a bigger financial issue in our marriage.  She is insecure about money,  I have let myself get into a position where I am paying more of the bills than she is.  Also she continues to own and spend money on her mother's house which is empty.   I have told her that asking me to subsisdize her desire to hang onto her mother's house and spend money for nothing is not something I believe in.  I put all of this in a letter 5 months ago and nothing has changed.

On downsizing our house,  I have clearly told her that I feel a four bedroom two and one half bath house is too big for just two people.  I initially proposed we sell it and buy a smaller house in Florida.  She said no.  I then said sell it and buy a smaller house in the same area.  She said no.  I told her I was afraid of getting in a position where I was too old to take care of this house. Keeping the house clean is and issue. That did not matter.  I told her it was expensive to heat and cool and the taxes were high.  That did not matter.  I told her I would be happier living in a warmer climate each winter.  That did not matter.  This is when I started to realize the scope of the problem I was dealing with.  One really weird aspect of this is that she strongly resist anyone coming to our house.  No one has visited us in years.  We have not entertained family during holidays.  We always go to their house.  If we schedule a repairman to come,  she gets anxious the day before and insist that we vacumn and scrub floors and pick up around the house before he gets here.   She is willing to spend a lot of money on the outside appearance of the house,  (shrubbery and mulching, and yardwork)  but absolutely will not lift a finger to do anything on the inside of the house.  Family members comment to me that they find it strange that we never invite them over for a visit.

So at this point in my life,  how do I resolve my need for a smaller more affordable house with her insistence on not changing anything.  I am not sure if legally I can buy a house if she is not willing to sign papers.  I have the money to do that but legally my hands may be tied.  I am  looking into this but I may have to separate financially in order to resolve this issue.

[Radcliff]

The way our pwBPD can block decisionmaking and refuse to discuss our goals, hopes or needs with us can be very painful.  It sounds like you're frustrated on some very basic issues -- where and in what kind of residence you live as you age.  You speak of potentially buying a house on your own.  In that scenario are you breaking up with her? 

[Tired in MD]

Boy has it been a rough couple of days.   The thinking with buying a house is related to the idea that I can only control my behavior and not hers.  Also there is the really really strong fear of abandonment.  If I buy a smaller house, and give her an opportunity to come live with me if she chooses.  But not pursue legal separation at this point.  My thinking is this might be a way to let her experience the consequences of her actions.  If she has to take responsibility for the house we currently live in, paying bills, and making repairs,  she may make some decisions. 

My thinking is this is a way to take care of myself both emotionally, physically and mentally,  while still staying in and working on the relationship.  Maybe I am way off base.  Doing nothing is not an attractive option  but man are we ever stuck.  Since I moved out for six months and then moved back,  she is really angry and suspicious all the time.  So I am using the ideas from SWOE to try and improve my skills on communication, and living with BPD person.

[Radcliff]

In reading through your thread, I see that you've done a bunch of work and have a good amount of self awareness about what's going on.  That's a start.  Continuing to grow self-awareness and then doing the follow through to change your behaviors is going to be hard work, but worth it. 

Would you say that moving to a smaller house is a need of yours or a want?

If you bought a smaller house, you would then move into it, and your wife and you would collectively own and have to maintain three houses?

RC