It Never Ends :)

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So, today, I'm all excited to see my kid... I head over to pick her up and like usual, I am ambushed. My kid doesn't want to come over and spend the night. She doesn't want to see me, but wants me to walk her to school. My kids mind is so messed up, it's ridiculous.
I suggested we just grab dinner and I would drop her back off at her Mom's. Her Mom buts in and says my kids bed time is at 7pm. That's when they start their routine. My kid is in 4th grade. I'm like ok, I will bring her back at 6-6:30.

We walk back to my place. I live right down the street. We get in the house and we're talking. And my kid has her cell phone and I asked her to put it down to talk, and she refused, so I took it from her. I went to the bathroom and she ran out of the house! So she ran back to her Mom' house and said she felt unsafe. I'm like what is going on here? So my kids Mom brings up the time I got upset 2 months ago. And how I got upset when I was upset that her Mom was playing games with the schedule and putting it on our daughters shoulders.

Then she says my kid is still upset because I lost my temper those times. But it's perfectly fine for me to do exactly what my kid wants with no say. So I can be a doormat to my kid and do what she wants, but nothing else. It's just total nonsense at this point. So we're talking and I'm like so what should I do? She responds with wait for my kid to reach out to me. I'm thinking that isn't working because my kid wants me to take her to a toy store and if I say no, she refuses to interact with me.

So me and my kids Mom keep talking. She turns to becoming verbally aggressive by saying how I had so many times to be a good Dad, but am not. How I let my kid down so many times. And just nonsense. So then she goes you're not listening. I stopped listening. I'm like what the F? So I just said its all BS. And she's like well we have nothing to talk about. I'm like what's the point of these conversations?

In my head I'm thinking, you could have texted me to talked to me about this at ANY other time besides when I come to pick up my child. There is no problem solving unless I agree to some vague terms and admit I some how did something wrong like parent my kid. My kid told me today that she has ALWAYS hated coming over to my place. I'm like, I get it. I know. I hated our schedule and her Mom wouldn't agree to anything else. The courts were back and forth, so I just dealt with ti because I figured at least I was seeing my kid, but I wasn't happy. I had a hard time connecting with my kid because I know my kids mom has filled my kids head with a bunch of nonsense.

It's not like I haven't tried. I bought tons of toys. I paid for all kinds of things. I asked for more time. I've showed up and still show up even though the situation is done. I guess the hard part is, if I don't show up. I'm the bad guy. If I do show up. I'm the bad guy. It's awesome.

[Agwis]

So, today, I'm all excited to see my kid... I head over to pick her up and like usual, I am ambushed. My kid doesn't want to come over and spend the night. She doesn't want to see me, but wants me to walk her to school. My kids mind is so messed up, it's ridiculous.
I suggested we just grab dinner and I would drop her back off at her Mom's. Her Mom buts in and says my kids bed time is at 7pm. That's when they start their routine. My kid is in 4th grade. I'm like ok, I will bring her back at 6-6:30.

We walk back to my place. I live right down the street. We get in the house and we're talking. And my kid has her cell phone and I asked her to put it down to talk, and she refused, so I took it from her. I went to the bathroom and she ran out of the house! So she ran back to her Mom' house and said she felt unsafe. I'm like what is going on here? So my kids Mom brings up the time I got upset 2 months ago. And how I got upset when I was upset that her Mom was playing games with the schedule and putting it on our daughters shoulders.

Then she says my kid is still upset because I lost my temper those times. But it's perfectly fine for me to do exactly what my kid wants with no say. So I can be a doormat to my kid and do what she wants, but nothing else. It's just total nonsense at this point. So we're talking and I'm like so what should I do? She responds with wait for my kid to reach out to me. I'm thinking that isn't working because my kid wants me to take her to a toy store and if I say no, she refuses to interact with me.

So me and my kids Mom keep talking. She turns to becoming verbally aggressive by saying how I had so many times to be a good Dad, but am not. How I let my kid down so many times. And just nonsense. So then she goes you're not listening. I stopped listening. I'm like what the F? So I just said its all BS. And she's like well we have nothing to talk about. I'm like what's the point of these conversations?

In my head I'm thinking, you could have texted me to talked to me about this at ANY other time besides when I come to pick up my child. There is no problem solving unless I agree to some vague terms and admit I some how did something wrong like parent my kid. My kid told me today that she has ALWAYS hated coming over to my place. I'm like, I get it. I know. I hated our schedule and her Mom wouldn't agree to anything else. The courts were back and forth, so I just dealt with ti because I figured at least I was seeing my kid, but I wasn't happy. I had a hard time connecting with my kid because I know my kids mom has filled my kids head with a bunch of nonsense.

It's not like I haven't tried. I bought tons of toys. I paid for all kinds of things. I asked for more time. I've showed up and still show up even though the situation is done. I guess the hard part is, if I don't show up. I'm the bad guy. If I do show up. I'm the bad guy. It's awesome.

[kells76]

Yes. I am so sorry you're going through this, and yes, we have been there. It's really painful. I hear a lot of hurt and frustration in your writing, and I understand why.

This is absolutely where DH (and I) were about 2.5 years ago (he and the kids' mom divorced in 2011). Here's what I posted back in then:

DH went to pick up sd10 from her activity. She was dead set on not going with him. (This would be the start of the first 2night weekend in... .forever, based on new PP that got signed last week). It sounded like full blown "You can't make me, I'm not going with you, I don't want you in my life, I don't have a place with you, I never want to see you" stuff. Apparently she walked/ran away from him at least once.

DH called Mom to have her talk to sd10, as it seemed like sd10 was so far gone she wouldn't listen to anything from DH. DH talked to Mom on the phone to have her talk to sd10 about how these are the new rules etc. sd10 told DH something like I don't want to be with you if you're mean to Mom like that. (!)

Mom sees no problem with sd10's behavior, as "sd10 follows the rules at Activity, so I'm not concerned". Mom also said that "relationships should be built on trust". She did seem ok with counseling though. Mom came & picked up sd10. DH would've had to physically grab sd10 to get her to go with him.

DH called L & left message. Mom is supposed to talk to sd10 & bring her over. Mom professes that she will "try to convince" sd10 that sd10 should go.

So much more bs from Mom. I'm really concerned about sd10 as we were just with her on Wednesday and although a bit defensive she was affectionate with DH. I don't think mom will listen to anyone except her L, if that. Mom sees no role in this at all.

I'm pretty upset and DH has been through the wringer. If mom does drop off sd10 sd10 is gonna have a major attitude and it sounds like running off is not out of the picture. At age 10.

The kids' mom was never above using the kids to hurt DH. This was totally our experience too:

you could have texted me to talked to me about this at ANY other time besides when I come to pick up my child

She loved "including" the kids in adult decision making.

I guess the hard part is, if I don't show up. I'm the bad guy. If I do show up. I'm the bad guy.

Absolutely. This is absolutely what happened. So your D's mom is trying to position you in an impossible situation, and you're feeling it. She is also making a dysfunctional move of bringing D up to her adult level to look down on you and judge you. No child should be in the position of judging their parent's parenting. It's really unhealthy. When moms (or parents) do that, the child might seem to have have a "haughty" or entitled attitude, where "if one little thing isn't how I like it, I'm leaving".

Mom will probably frame it as "I'm the only one who listens, I'm the only one who really cares about D". She lacks a sense of self and is possibly a bottomless pit of need for validation. By bringing D up to her level to "judge" you, Mom temporarily feels better about herself. Unhealthy.

OK. So, Turkish may chide me a little for this analogy again   , but think about boxing. Two competitors stand up and punch it out, trying to outlast each other by brute force. Now, think about jiu-jitsu. It looks like you're in the down position (Oh my, he is on the floor, and the other guy is on top of him, uh oh). Really, you can use that to your advantage. Having your back against the floor can be turned into a huge advantage, if you use your opponent's force against him/her.

DH was there. Mom had him backed into the same corner ("If you try to MAKE the kids spend time with you, you're selfish; if you DON'T spend time with the kids, you've abandoned them"). It seems like she is "boxing" by making this full offensive assault. It's time to pivot to jiu-jitsu.

I really encourage you to read this article about how to turn what seems like insurmountable hurdles (kids saying "I hate you, I want to be with Mom, it always is your way, you never do what I want... ." -- verbiage coming essentially from Mom's attitudes and feelings) into a better relationship with your D:

www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf

And keep posting here. It seems hard now, and it is. I promise, it can get better. Hang on and keep loving your D. We will do the best we can to get you through.

kells

[kells76]

I wanted to pull out a quotation from the article here, especially for you but also for other readers, because it's amazing to me how closely it tracks with the way you've described your experience:

The Double-Bind Trap
However, if you don’t defend yourself,   then you’re admitting to the false allegations. If we “validate the child’s feelings” then we validate the false accusation that you are overly critical and insensitive, when, in truth, it is the child who is hostile-provoking.
But if you try to clarify your innocence, then you are seen as overly defensive, insensitive to the child, incapable of self-reflection, and as externalizing your own responsibility by criticizing your child, thereby validating by your very defense the allegations being made against you.
That’s the Trap: You’re damned if you do (i.e., if you accept the false accusation) and you’re damned if you don’t (i.e., if you defend yourself against the false narrative).

But don't stop reading there   that's only page 4 of 23.

[Agwis]

Yesterday, after it happened I tried to be stoic about it. Like, that didn't bother me so much. But I woke up at 2am and today I just been drained.

To your point kells76... .two months ago I went with all the false allegations. I was like yeah, you know, I'm sorry for all these things. I did some messed up things and I'm sorry. Were there somethings I could apologize sure? Absolutely. The way I react towards her for sure. I'm thinking, ok, maybe we can all move on now. It was a sincere apology. Nope. Relentless nonsense and things even became WORSE.

I saw this video on youtube about hwo this woman with BPD intentionally admitted to harming people emotionally. That's exactly what this woman is doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHJ6cBjj29U

[Torched]

My friend, I feel for you.  I really do.  But what was said above about how to handle this from your child’s perspective is important.  You need to follow that advice and figure out how to “talk” to your child about these things.

One thing that did help me was asking a therapist to arm my children against their mother’s typical behaviors, some of which are similar to your ex’s.  The advantage I had was that it had not gotten to that point yet where my children were actively participating with BPDex mom against me.  Had I not asked them to counseling (which they initially hated), they would have fallen for everything mom was doing.  I was also lucky in that their age (11 and 13) worked in my favor because the therapist was able to help them “see” which parental behaviors were healthy and which ones were not.  She also armed them with better “smell test” information so they could see through some of the behaviors.

Nowadays, the tables are turned.  They understand that their mother is flawed, they just don’t really know why.  They comment about it and set really great boundaries with their mother’s anti-dad tendencies.  They know that they can love us both but they DON’T have to be ashamed of either of us just because mom thinks they should.  I tell them to love their mom and they love the freedom of that.  They also love the freedom that they are entitled to love me too by blocking mom’s abuse out of their own thoughts and feelings.

[kells76]

I woke up at 2am and today I just been drained

Yes. Drama from pwBPD is draining. You are exactly right. I'm really sorry it's exhausting you so much.

two months ago I went with all the false allegations. I was like yeah, you know, I'm sorry for all these things.

OK, so you tried one "option" Mom gave you (I'm sorry for every bad thing I've ever done).

And you've also been trying the only other "option" Mom is giving you (I'm not actually a bad guy).

Funny how she sets it up (whether she "consciously chooses" to or not, in the end, doesn't matter to US) that whichever option you pick, you're "bad Dad".

She wants you to stay in "boxing" conflict with her, where she can enlist your D as her ally. And the two outcomes of staying in that conflict with her are: (1) she wins, or (2) you lose. Which you already know.

What Torched and I have learned is that she "doesn't want" (for whatever that's worth) you to know that there's a third way -- a way out. It involves focusing on your D and using some very, very non-intuitive skills to maneuver you and D out of the drama. She wants you to stay engaged with her by "boxing" because negative engagement is still engagement (i.e., she "hates you" but can't let go of conflict with you).

Is "jiu-jitsu" -- the third way -- something you want to try?

[Mutt]

 Hi Agwis,
 
I'm sorry that you're going through this, I can understand how emotionally distressing it is to co-parent with a pwBPD. I read a theme in your posts that is common with other member's exes, BPD is a persecution complex, where a pwBPD truly believe that their situations are not caused by them it's caused by others externally. Your expwBPD is casting you in the role of persecutor and your child in the role of victim she'll shift between rescuer and victim role and very seldom the role of persecutor. Read about triangulation, become indifferent to her behaviours she is wired this way.
 
 I'm always the problem with my exuBPDw we've been seperated for 5 years and divorced for two of those she hasn't changed she is still attached and will try baiting or will cross boundaries I agree with the others it's drama and she wants attention. I know that you're doing this don't get discouraged it's not fair for the kids to be stuck in the middle of this and it's especially difficult with a pwBPD but don't say anything bad about mom.
 
 It's hard when your kids believe into the things that your expwBPD are saying but you can't take someone's actions away from them, they speak for you, take the high road let her actions and words speak for themselves she doesn't need the help and you don't want to waste your time and energy by giving attention that's unwarranted - it's draining. Be mindful of triangulation and don't take anyone's side remain neutral because it doesn't give the other person an opportunity blame and cause drama and it helps you with your emotional well being - this is not fun.

So me and my kids Mom keep talking. She turns to becoming verbally aggressive by saying how I had so many times to be a good Dad, but am not. How I let my kid down so many times. And just nonsense. So then she goes you're not listening. I stopped listening. I'm like what the F? So I just said its all BS. And she's like well we have nothing to talk about. I'm like what's the point of these conversations?

 My exuBPDw used to devaluate me in front of the kids when I dropped them off or picked them up I set a boundary on myself and told her that talking to me like that in front of the kids is unacceptable and I won't continue talking to her and walk away. That's exactly what I did and eventually she stopped doing it during drop off and pick up she hasn't change the behaviour obviously she's just rerouted it - I talk to her by email and that's when she is condescending, blaming, projecting etc... .

For your sake Agwis I think that you're too close to this set a boundary by walking away from her and that's going to help you distance yourself from I know that it can be difficult to set boundaries with a pwBPD it's like anything else a trade, a sport, the more you do it the better that you are it.

Your child is 9 years old do you have a custody order or is this an arrangement between the two of you?

[Radcliff]

I am exactly where you are with my daughter and stbxBPDw.  Including the running away once just recently when I held the line on something and she didn't like it.

I feel like like I'm not able to fill my role as a parent, because I have no respect and no leverage.  It's really upsetting.  I want to raise my daughter in an environment of respect and teach her well.  I can imagine the scene with you and your daughter and the cell phone, and I would have likely taken her cell phone away as well, but I think it's a mistake.

From all my reading, and a ton of money spent with some really smart psychologists experienced with high conflict cases, plus my recent learning in the school of hard knocks, I think we need to come to terms with the fact that we do not have the juice in the current situation to discipline our daughters.  The first, second, and third priorities are to maintain the relationship.  One of the psychologists told me that in this situation, it's important for them to be rewarded by their interactions with us.  I don't mean material things.  Emotional.  You and I are supposed to be "fun, happy Dad."  I have been working through the book, Overcoming the Co-Parenting Trap: Essential Parenting Skills When a Child Resists a Parent, by Moran, Sullivan, and Sullivan.  There is an excellent chapter in the book about how the "resisted parent" needs to behave to get the best results.  (Despite the fact that we don't have any juice on discipline, I'm thinking if I were you, I'd still hold the line on toy store extortion, but I'd resist indirectly, instead of confrontationally.)

In order to make interactions with your daughter rewarding, I'd suggest reading, Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach, by Glasser.  He explains that we don't get a lot of mileage out of criticizing our kids, and praising is of limited effectiveness because we have to wait until they do something right to do it, and we can't do it too much otherwise it becomes meaningless.  The incredibly useful advice he gives is to make neutral observations about what our child is doing to show them that they matter to us.  They can't argue with a neutral observation.  For example, you could say, "Hey, you've got the blue shirt today," or "That craft thing hanging from your backpack zipper looks like it took a long time to make," or "I see you're halfway through that book already."  It takes practice to see opportunities to do this, but you can get to where you can make several handfuls of them in an evening.  It sends a powerful message that she matters to you, and there is no downside for her -- you're not asking her to do anything.  I highly recommend reading the book, though, so you can get the whole idea.  Ignore the stuff about discipline, though; as I said, we don't have the juice for that right now.

Finally, one more book that's worth reading is Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Children.  I know it's pretty heavy to throw three book recommendations at you, but I've read them all, and our situations are very similar.  You've got a big problem.  Go to school on it ;)

Are there any activities your daughter finds fun to do with you?

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress, brother.

[DivDad]

Agwis, we have all been there, and it’s very frustrating. Especially for your D.  You are not alone. This is typical pwBPD behavior when children are involved. It will not subside. There are a number of articles on Parent Alienation Syndrome (PAS) which might be worth reading.  (Most courts, however don’t recognize PAS from a legal standpoint.)   
You didn’t say if your D is in therapy or if the custody settlement involves T, but it seems that this is needed.  pwBPD don’t like “outsiders.”  They might resist T, but you might want to consider mandatory T for your D. 

In my case, at one time we had 50/50 custody, I would give a room time-out to my S9.  He would call my uexBPDw…who would come over to my house and pick up my son who was in time-out….and go for an ice cream. (Rewarding him for his time-out behavior.)  Afterwards, she would drop him back off. Feigning to me that she was trying to “mediate” the situation.  This occurred a number of times.
This was one of many situations where I had to return to court. My L requested a court appointed Parent Coordinator and a court appointed guardian-ad-liten to look into the family situation.  The results did not bode well for my uexBPDw. 

Too, try and keep (and save) all communication between you and the pwPBD via email or text messages.  They hold up well in court.

You might want to look into a legal remedy to combat the PAS.

[Agwis]

A lot of good responses here. I will read them over and consider all of them. I can relate to a lot of you.

I did reach out to my attorney and she said it was best for me to step back now. She said the best way forward at the moment is to find a therapist to work with my daughter, which my kids Mom agreed to with a slam. She said, "Yes, I think he could use therapy to be a better parent. And I'm happy to let daughter to go when it's safe".

For me it's a bit difficult to find the right mix. At full disclosure, back in 2010, I was arrested for domestic assault. I did attack my kids Mom. I'm not making any excuses here, but when we lived together, I became physical towards her. I've apologized. Accepted ownership. Been to therapy. Done everything I possibly can, and have gotten no where in growth in my life or in my relationship with my kid. I have that against me. I can't say too much more about it without sounding like I'm minimizing it or denying it or any of that stuff. I regret that it happened and I wish I behaved more responsibly, and didn't cause her physical harm.

To all your points about triangulation, recently when I reached out in emotional pain from everything going out to a close friend that lives far away, he decided to call my kids Mom and talk to her. He came back attacking me. He has his own personal story with a troubled family situation. So I think it triggered him, but this guy was relentless. You shouldn't see your kid. Basically everything my kids Mom says to me came right through him parroted. I couldn't believe that happened. It caused me a lot of psychological distress. I love my kid. But nobody wants me around at the moment. And he made things a lot worse especially since I shared with him a lot of confidential and personal information and it all just fell right into her lap, which I'm sure she loved. I haven't touched this woman or acted in any way violent or aggressive towards her in any way since 2010's event. I'm constantly accused of it and before that event I never even knew clearly what was going on. I can't defend myself. I'm responsible for my actions, but damn to have to always live with that label from her. I can't get around it.

To your point when the ex came and picked up the kid from time-out and took them to get Ice Cream, my god. That's exactly what was happening with me. If I said no to a store. Her Mom would take her and have a fun time. It's like she really turned on the heat here these past three months. Anyhow, things are at a stand still and my therapist,, my attorney, my little family, they all think it's good for me to step back and heal from things. They say if my kid doesn't want to come over, you can't force her and I clearly can't, but I can't keep putting myself in situations to be abused on the regular.

So, I'm using this time to heal I guess. I've had a tremendous amount of depression from reading emails on behalf of my kids Mom from my close friend. My attorney. Trying to find a therapist for family therapy. It's been a lot of drama. On top of missing my kid and everything that comes with that situation.

[Radcliff]

Your honesty about the 2010 event is helpful.  Understanding that it still has an impact today, as unfortunate as that is, is important to figuring out the best approach.

This is about as hard as it gets.  Are you on a court-ordered parenting schedule?  What times and days are you supposed to have D9?

[ForeverDad]

One incident does not make a pattern.  If it was years ago, then the past should remain in the past.  It may be a part of your court history but by now the intervening years paint who you are now, not back then when your buttons were being pushed and you didn't know how you were being played.

Beware of apologizing over and over for something years ago.  People with BPD are notorious for bringin gup old stuff over and over, demanding apologies over and over, ad nauseum.  It's unhealthy and unwise to appease that that.  My ex is still blaming me, we've been divorced for over a decade now.  I just don't play that game anymore.

Besides, anyone who knows competitive sports games knows that any team that plays only defense is unlikely to win.  Regarding that incident, it's old and tired, don't play that game.

[soundofmusicgirl]

Agwis... these are the things my husband has been hearing from his now 12 yr old sons over the last 9 months:

if you would treat us better we would like to feel better about your visits.
I am not coming to visit you and you can't force me.
Mom told me that you are an adulterer and sinner and I do not want you to be my father anymore.
We don't want to come and visit you because you force feed us.
Remember last summer when you shook my brother. You should treat us better.

Needless to say that of course none of this is true or ever happened (I was there to be a witness that none of this ever happened).
That is all they way say to him now on the phone and then they will hang up.
Welcome to parental alienation.
The kids get screwed up royally.
Unfortunately they have a Therapist that fully believe BPDmom and all her "horror stories of the villain father".
So for now, they have no help and my husband gets verbally abused by them 3 times a week (his call times).

[Agwis]

My original schedule was weekends and a day on the weekend. But now I have nothing because my kid doesn't want to come over and I stopped fighting about it.

[foreverdad] - that's exactly right. right before all this stuff, i apologized to her. i was like i am so sorry i was so mean to you ten years ago. i just figured if i apologizeed maybe things would change. nope, they just became worse for me. so that didn't work.

[soundmusicgirl] - I feel for your husband. Having your kid say those things ruin your mood and its hard when you're constantly feeling beat down and bad.

As I get distance and perspective, I feel mentally stable and not up and down and moody and sad. But damn I miss my kid. I have to find a family therapist to go to and then rope in my kid to rebuild my relationship. I was recommended one therapist, but she's booked. She gave me a list of therapists and I asked her for the top 3 in her list with my story and then she recommended two other therapists. I reviewed them and they're not therapists I think I can connect with. So we'll see how it goes. I guess now I'm just de-stressing from a bad, bad situation? But damn missing my kid is tough, but putting myself in a unhealthy situation that made me so miserable and unhappy is worse. I lived it.

[DivDad]

Agwis.
Is your D in T now?  It is unclear if there is a court order for a T... .or is it a just mutual agreement?  This is an important issue to consider when it comes to going on the offense.

[Agwis]

[DivDad] - It is mutually agreed upon to go into therapy with D. I'm still trying to find a T. The mutual agreement right now is through my attorney. So we'll see. It's a big pain in the rear, let me tell you. But I feel much different completely out of the situation. My head was really messed up.

[Radcliff]

An important book for you to read is Overcoming the Co-Parenting Trap: Essential Parenting Skills When a Child Resists a Parent.  It has a great chapter on effective behaviors for the resisted parent.  There's also a chapter on what your wife should do.  Don't expect her to do any of it, just focus on the stuff you can do.  Reading it gave me hope and a sense that I could do some worthwhile things to improve the situation.  Don't Alienate the Kids is also an excellent book.  Eddy's main point in that book is that alienation is created not just by one alienating parent, but by a whole system -- both parents, lawyers, the court, etc.  As a "resisted parent" I can definitely see how my fear, anger, and hurt did not help things.

When you were doing custody transfers, how did they happen?  Did you try starting your custody time by picking your daughter up from school?  That may be much easier than trying to get her to leave her mother's home.  Nine years old is still young.  You don't have a ton of time, but you've got some time to work this.  Keep trying!

[Agwis]

[RadCliff] - Thanks for the book recommendations. I will look into it. I appreciate the feedback.

Pick-ups and drop offs were primarily done at her Moms house. For symbology of the situation, where my kids Mom lives, she has to go up some stairs in her entrance at her condo. So my kids Mom would be looking down on me from a higher position talking to me, making comments under her breath, or generally just acting disrespectful.

I walked my kid to school every morning for several years except this year given the circumstances. Last year, I became frustrated picking up my kid. I'd wait in that hallway and be irritable listening to them argue and fight every morning and my kid would be grumpy and have a bad attitude. So I would spend my time with her for about 5 minutes walking her to school and as she got older as expected she'd just run off on her own. Ironically, given the situation, she asked me to walk her again, but the situation was just frustrating. To make matters more interesting, I'd be told that contact for a 5 minute walk to school was me "seeing" my child every day. I would get so angry. I'm like why can't I have more time with her? And how is a 5 minute walk good enough for any kind of relationship building and bonding? Especially when my kid was always late EVERYDAY. But when she spent the night at my house during the school day was up and ready by 740am and excited to go to school.

Maybe I got off track here. The pick ups were always done at my kids Mom's house. The school transition thing given her age, I just felt like is a gap for her. So I always tried to provide consistent transitions where it was between parents and not between big events like that. I tried. I always wanted to facilitate a healthy transition, but even that became too toxic. And I just at the end there viewed these exchanges as an opportunity for my kids Mom to act abusive by saying crappy things and then acting dumb like she didn't say or do anything wrong and that I'm imagining things and am nuts. It would drive me nuts that we would have DAYS between visits to talk about ANYTHING and she would ALWAYS ambush me with requests and changes at either the last minute or at these exchanges and I would be so frustrated trying to keep things normalized for my child. Good times.

[DivDad]

Agwis,
Thanks for the T feedback information.
Believe me when I say that what you are experiencing and the frustration of the situation is typical BPD behavior when children are involved.  It is not going to get better by hoping for the best.  Especially so when therapy for your D is a “mutually agreed upon” arrangement.  Nothing is mutual with a pwBPD. 

You might want to look down the road a bit (over the next 2 years +) as to what you can control and what is in the best interest of your D.  That is, begin to strategize with your L regarding T for your D.  Don’t leave the process up to your L or the pwBPD.  If there is a mutual agreement to get your D into T, and the ball is in your court, I would look at prioritizing finding a T as soon as possible. 
Usually, the pwBPD will throw up roadblocks once you identify a T.   You will just have to anticipate this. 
Document the roadblocks or resistant (via text and email messages, not verbally) because you will need this later.  When I say that you have to strategize things, the end game for you is to eventually get a court ordered  T.    (I assume your L is aware of…and understands… BPD behavior.)  You need to take control of the situation and not assume the pwBPD will agree to a mutually agreed upon T.  pwBPD don’t like “outsiders” coming into their world. 
Set a deadline with your L regarding getting your D into T.  Too, you might have to go through a number of Ts.  pwBPD sometimes shop around for a T that meets their agenda.  (Although, this might not be the case.)  Hence a deadline and a sense of urgency to your L and pwBPD to get it done.  Nicely document to the pwBPD the deadline. In short, you need to start the process now for the sake of your D.   Get advice from your L about the process (and law) in your state regarding a court ordered T.  Think down the road when your D is 10-18.
In my case, it took me three years to figure out that mutually agreed upon ANYTHING  equated to chaos.
If you demonstrate to the court that the pwBPD is dragging her feet on getting your D into T, then you can proceed accordingly. That is, a game plan of getting a court ordered T.  Again, this is something you can control. Tell your L that this is your priority now.   
Eventually, you will have to address court ordered pick ups and drop offs, etc.

In short, as with many other nonBPD, they feel they are floating down a BPD river in a boat with no rudder and hoping that the pwBPD or L will steer them in the right direction.
A good strategy will help you build the rudder.

[Radcliff]

Anyhow, things are at a stand still and my therapist,, my attorney, my little family, they all think it's good for me to step back and heal from things. They say if my kid doesn't want to come over, you can't force her and I clearly can't, but I can't keep putting myself in situations to be abused on the regular.

This above from your attorney, therapist, and family is probably bad advice, and goes against best practices in dealing with alienation.  Of course, it is based on very common misconceptions.  There are many therapists who don't understand alienation, and more lawyers who don't.  You and your daughter need the opposite of taking a break.  She needs positive exposure to you -- good experiences where you're relaxed and happy to be with her.  Unless they are reading accurately that you're having enough trouble controlling your anger that it's interfering with your relationship with your daughter and you need to calm down.  Out here on the Internet, we can't tell.  I do know how excruciatingly hard it is to be a dad who's daughter is experiencing alienating behavior from her mom.  It for sure makes a guy angry.  Doubly so when the mom is allowed to display any emotion, and even normal-range emotions from the dad are labeled inappropriate.  But, the practical fact is that we need to figure out a way to not display anger and frustration around our daughters in this particularly difficult time.

Do you think you can keep your frustration under control well enough to have good time with your daughter, especially if transfers can be made to go more smoothly?

One sign that you might be getting bad advice is that you have an obvious structural problem with your situation that any therapist or lawyer with appropriate experience should have called out.  It's a bad idea for custody transfers to happen with you picking up at your ex's home.  If your daughter is to spend the evening, night, or weekend at your home, you should be picking her up from school.  Your wife should be nowhere close.  Custody transfers are classic opportunities for trouble, and the school pickup is a classic response.

Is picking her up at school workable for you?

Do you have a court-ordered parenting schedule?  If so, what is it?

[Agwis]

It is bad advice knowing the situation intimately, but from the outside, right now there isn't much I can do to shift the situation.

I was losing my temper in front of my child there at the end, and my kids Mom knew how to dig in. In my opinion, she saw an opportunity and took it. This is after 7 years of living on edge afraid to make any kind of mistake.

I'm going to stick for my own therapy for a bit. I was a miserable father given the situation and I can't deny that. Knowing how I feel today, versus how I felt a couple weeks ago, I wasn't a good Dad given the situation.

My kid was suffering at the end and she just wanted some peace. I was the easiest one to push away. I don't know how things will turn out. But I'm going to let things marinate I guess.

One time, I picked my kid up with her Mom at the airport and my kid ran to give me a hug and her Mom starts complaining about how she didn't get the same kind of hug. So naturally my kid felt bad.

Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

[Radcliff]

It is not uncommon for a child to gravitate towards the least healthy parent because they feel they need to keep that parent happy in order to be safe in their love.  It's good that you recognize that you could do better as a father, but it's equally important not to internalize your ex's message that you are a bad father.  You need to work hard to get to the place of a calm, confident father.

These two questions are important to help guide what to do next:

Is picking her up at school workable for you?

Do you have a court-ordered parenting schedule?  If so, what is it?

Can you let us know about those?

RC

[Agwis]

Picking up my kid from school was the idea. The problem was that my kids Mom fought it. She insisted that our kid goes to her house after school. I didn't strongly fight it because I have to work and she works from home. I honestly don't even know how she makes her money. But when I'm paying a good chunk of child support, I guess that makes things easy.

As for the court ordered schedule, yes, we've had a court ordered schedule in place for years. I am supposed to have her for an extended weekend every other weekend. And I was having our daughter one over night on the other week. But now I am getting nothing because my kid is afraid of me and doesn't want to come over, and I can't force her to.

[Radcliff]

Picking up my kid from school was the idea. The problem was that my kids Mom fought it. She insisted that our kid goes to her house after school. I didn't strongly fight it because I have to work and she works from home.

I understand why you didn't fight it at the time, if the consequences weren't apparent, and your wife fought it.  Now you know.  Talk to your lawyer to find out what you need to do to make this happen.  You probably need a change in the orders.  Do you have any journals or notes on how many times you've gone to your ex's place and not been able to pick up your daughter, and/or gotten grief from your ex?  For every transfer that is supposed to happen, let her know you're coming and show up like clockwork.  Write down what happens.  Don't get into any argumentative exchanges with her, just show up like a calm dad, do your best, and write it down.

When you show up in court, don't talk about how your daughter doesn't want to see you.  You're a great dad who wants to be there for his daughter, and your wife is interfering with the exchanges, so you're asking for a change in orders so you can pick up your daughter at school.  Simple story.  This is a totally reasonable thing for you to ask for.  Try to act confident, and like a problem-solving guy.

With respect to work commitments, picking her up at school would mean leaving work early once per week, right?  Do you have the type of work that can accommodate that, especially if you explain why?  You don't have any kids the other 4 days a week, and can work many extra hours to compensate.

As for the court ordered schedule, yes, we've had a court ordered schedule in place for years. I am supposed to have her for an extended weekend every other weekend. And I was having our daughter one over night on the other week. But now I am getting nothing because my kid is afraid of me and doesn't want to come over, and I can't force her to.

Do you think she is genuinely afraid of you?  If you picked her up at school, went out for dinner and ice cream, and rented a silly movie about puppies, how would that go?  Does she have a genuine reason to be afraid of you (e.g. you really blew your stack once or twice)?  Or are you more worried about the effects of your ex?  Either or both problems are addressable; let us know how it looks.

RC

[Agwis]

I am keeping documentation. My last visit had my kid running out of my home because I said no phone. Then I was told to wait for my kid to call to make plans. Then when I didn't show, I was told my kid was eagerly waiting for me, but I didn't show. It's distressing. I get a text yesterday morning saying, "Just checking in about this weekend since you didn't show up last Friday. I've been encouraging D9 to see you, but she doesn't want to go. I will have her and a bag ready, just let me know if you will be coming or not.

I keep it calm and flexible saying, don't force her to come or stay the night if she doesn't want to, I can at minimum take her out to eat anywhere she wants and bring her back... I get all excited to see my child. I head over there, and she's out playing in their little court yard, her Mom is there and what I call the group of haters circling around. Basically people my kids Mom tells I'm a POS. I get there and my D9 hides from me. She says very angrily, "I'm not going". I'm like OK. I insist a few times like lets go grab some food wherever you want and she's like NO. So I'm trying to talk to her and get close and she's not having it and wants space. She goes, "I never want to see you again", as her Mom is nearby she looks at her Mom several times.

Another kid in the court yard has no problem talking or playing with me. My kid goes to play a game and I go to join in and my kid is like, "don't let him join!" No. And she gets all pouty and "don't talk to him". I'm like seesh. But I was in a good mindset. I was expecting this to some degree. I haven't seen my kid in a couple weeks.

So as my kid runs off my kids Mom starts talking to me. I'm like I don't know what to do here. And she's all like blah, blah, blah. I need to know if you're coming or not so I can tell her. If you don't come she's anxious (but apparently when I show up I am not wanted). I'm like what the heck. Anyhow, I play it cool, it's really confusing.

I threw out a couple of text options to connect on some other terms. We'll see, but it's very distressing, distracting, and depressing. Does my kid have reason to fear me? Did I do something so mean to her to make her react this way? No. This is not the norm. I do not have a substance abuse issues. I was not physically violent towards my child. I was not neglectful. Anytime my kid and I was real close, I think something would happen from her Mom and I and that connection would be disrupted.

Am I a bad dude because I told her to get off her phone for an hour? No. Am I bad dude because I told her she shouldn't be doing something in school. No. Am I a bad dude to correct some of her behavior? No. Problem is when I do, I get push back from her Mom like I'm doing something wrong. It's obviously not a good situation. My perspective is, if this woman is off telling everyone from the school to her friends, family, and people in my own camp, to everyone in my kids life how bad I am, how does my kid "not" have her reactions the way she does?

At this point, I'm just like this is a bunch of bs. Reading books, going to counseling, going back and forth to court or mediation, it's all just dumb, spending tons of money on adventures. The back and forth e-mails. Nobody can fix it. People can prey on the situation and get money to "try" and solve the family problem, but at the end of the day it takes away from my child and goes into other kids mouth. That money I'm dumping into a conflict is money my kid doesn't get in building herself. It's stupid.  I'm told, "find a therapist for you and your child". My kids mom goes, "you need to find a therapist for your issues", I'm like are you even in there? I have a therapist. I been working on my issues. Am I missing something here?

Of course she dinged me with the financial. "we're struggling because I have to feed her more". I'm like I pay you $750 a month. Is my kid eating $750 a month? I kept it cool though. I was like, oh what do you think would be a fair increase to compensate for that? She's like I don't know. But I am paying for extra activities for her. This is the first time in months she has openly paid for my kids interest activity. In my eyes $750 is plenty. It's just a bunch of bs in my opinion at this point.

[Radcliff]

Thanks for all the detail.  That really helps us understand the situation.  I totally get it that you could spend a ton of money and not get any changes.  But what you're doing is not working.  Are you ready to try something different?

The fact that your daughter was anxious that you might not come, then mistreated you when you did come, makes total sense.  She needs to know that you love her.  So you not showing is upsetting.  But once you show, she needs to talk you down, especially in front of your wife, in order for her to feel emotionally safe with your wife.  Your wife is not going to change.  You need to change the way you're playing the game.

Here are four specific suggestions:

1.  Get regular about visits -- Go every time.  Communicate the day before and when you leave to go there, so everyone knows what to expect.  Message the day before.  Message when you start to go over.  Show up every time.  Record your two messages and each visit in your journal.

2.  Do not undercut yourself -- By saying how flexible you are, you're sending a confusing message.  Your calm expectation is that the dinner visit and the weekend visit will go exactly according to the parenting plan, every time.  You don't have a lot of time with her.  You are not being selfish.  It is important for her to have time with you.  Don't shoot yourself in the foot.  You'll have to be flexible and calm if a visit fails to happen, but don't hinder it before it starts.

3.  Transfers need to happen at school -- Is there a chance your wife might go for you picking your daughter up at school without going back to court?  If not, you need to get an order.  Walking into a hornet's nest at your wife's place is not working.

4.  Ease up on discipline -- As a dad, I totally get your desire to raise your daughter to have respect and behave appropriately, especially since her mom has issues.  But right now, until things get better, your relationship with your daughter and the time she spends with you is way, way more important.  Effective discipline depends on a strong relationship.  Trying to discipline in this situation is like pushing on a rope.  Build the relationship first.  

What do you think about these four suggestions?  Are you willing to try them?  I know it feels hopeless, but you can improve this situation.

RC

[ForeverDad]

What about this for #5?  Always maintain the stance that you want and expect to be an involved father.  Regularly call your daughter.  Continue with your efforts to pick up at exchanges and have your parenting time with your daughter.

Evidently you are not getting the time that is in the parenting schedule?  Did the court order you not to have time with your daughter or was it officially reduced pursuant to a court order?  What I'm asking and urging is that the order is the official situation.  If you agreed to less time for a while, you can have the stance that it didn't work and more time, not less time, would be more helpful.  After all, if one approach is not working, it doesn't make sense to keep trying it.  You have a right to reconsider prior decisions or concessions based upon success or failure.

Lastly, children don't decide, parents do or, lacking cooperation, the court does.  Yes, older teens can sometimes "vote with their feet".  But preteens and especially younger children don't decide.  There would have to be serious and documented issues for the order not to be followed.  (At least that's the way it is supposed to happen.)