When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I apologize for the long absence folks. There's a lot of personal, emotional, and physical processing to be done in a situation like this.

I know many of you had comments and concerns about the deadline for filing. I was on top of this, and so was my attorney. They asked for, and obtained, the appropriate extensions to make sure I wasn't affected. This firm is very experienced and professional. I wasn't worried I'd miss a deadline.

We completed the answer, counterclaim, certification, and cross-motion after about 3 solid days of heads-down work. I spent much of last weekend on the phone, and then on Monday I spent a good portion of the day in my lawyer's conference room approving and editing drafts, proof reading, correcting facts, and polishing the responses until they were perfect. And, honestly, I am quite proud of what we were all able to accomplish. This firm has an extremely gifted and empathetic younger attorney with 2 young children. She understood right away that we were dealing with a personality disorder. I didn't have to say a thing. Her first question to me was, "Has she been diagnosed?" - so I explained everything I could in the time we had. She knew the judge well, she knew the opposing attorney, so I felt very confident that her drafts regarding the cruelty counter claim and the cross motion for custody were going to resonate well with the court. I went back and forth a little with this attorney as to whether I wanted so much of my private texts entered as exhibits, and she assured me that the net effect of these messages was that my STBX looked very unstable and combative, while I remained calm and tried to problem solve. She said this is the strategy that will win over the court. So again, she gets it, and I'm basing that also on the fact that this is the strategy so many of you have recommended.

The partner attorney was working hard on the financial aspects, and again, I'm really happy with the work she did. We managed to put forward several defenses to the post nuptial agreement, and completely dismantle my STBX's arguments around financial abuse, inflated claims of my salary, etc. We have very few marital assets relative to the amount of debt we share, but this attorney put forward several reasonable proposals to free up funds to pay for what's needed.

The court date is set for next Friday, and I believe I am as prepared as I can be. I will relax this weekend, and at the beginning of next week I have several blocks of down time to prepare myself mentally for facing my STBX in court. I made many claims in the filings as to my abilities and involvement with D4 - every single one of them backed up by a piece of evidence. Everything that could be or should be entered as an exhibit was entered.

I wish I could share more of the specific stuff that went into the filings - I'm very proud of it. But it would take quite a while to edit out the personal details. I'm not 100% sure these are all the things that needed to be said or that they were said exactly the way the judge needed to hear them, but if I were to guess, I'd say my case looks good at this point.

I may not have more of an update for another week or so, but I welcome anyone's comments or questions and I'd love to answer them.

Thanks again for your patience everyone - I truly appreciate everything everyone has done to support me so far.When I got home, my family was gone | Part 1
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 2
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 3
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 4
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 6

[DaddyBear77]

I apologize for the long absence folks. There's a lot of personal, emotional, and physical processing to be done in a situation like this.

I know many of you had comments and concerns about the deadline for filing. I was on top of this, and so was my attorney. They asked for, and obtained, the appropriate extensions to make sure I wasn't affected. This firm is very experienced and professional. I wasn't worried I'd miss a deadline.

We completed the answer, counterclaim, certification, and cross-motion after about 3 solid days of heads-down work. I spent much of last weekend on the phone, and then on Monday I spent a good portion of the day in my lawyer's conference room approving and editing drafts, proof reading, correcting facts, and polishing the responses until they were perfect. And, honestly, I am quite proud of what we were all able to accomplish. This firm has an extremely gifted and empathetic younger attorney with 2 young children. She understood right away that we were dealing with a personality disorder. I didn't have to say a thing. Her first question to me was, "Has she been diagnosed?" - so I explained everything I could in the time we had. She knew the judge well, she knew the opposing attorney, so I felt very confident that her drafts regarding the cruelty counter claim and the cross motion for custody were going to resonate well with the court. I went back and forth a little with this attorney as to whether I wanted so much of my private texts entered as exhibits, and she assured me that the net effect of these messages was that my STBX looked very unstable and combative, while I remained calm and tried to problem solve. She said this is the strategy that will win over the court. So again, she gets it, and I'm basing that also on the fact that this is the strategy so many of you have recommended.

The partner attorney was working hard on the financial aspects, and again, I'm really happy with the work she did. We managed to put forward several defenses to the post nuptial agreement, and completely dismantle my STBX's arguments around financial abuse, inflated claims of my salary, etc. We have very few marital assets relative to the amount of debt we share, but this attorney put forward several reasonable proposals to free up funds to pay for what's needed.

The court date is set for next Friday, and I believe I am as prepared as I can be. I will relax this weekend, and at the beginning of next week I have several blocks of down time to prepare myself mentally for facing my STBX in court. I made many claims in the filings as to my abilities and involvement with D4 - every single one of them backed up by a piece of evidence. Everything that could be or should be entered as an exhibit was entered.

I wish I could share more of the specific stuff that went into the filings - I'm very proud of it. But it would take quite a while to edit out the personal details. I'm not 100% sure these are all the things that needed to be said or that they were said exactly the way the judge needed to hear them, but if I were to guess, I'd say my case looks good at this point.

I may not have more of an update for another week or so, but I welcome anyone's comments or questions and I'd love to answer them.

Thanks again for your patience everyone - I truly appreciate everything everyone has done to support me so far.When I got home, my family was gone | Part 1
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 2
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 3
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 4
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 5
When I got home, my family was gone | Part 6

[DaddyBear77]

Hello everyone, it's been a couple of weeks since I checked in here and I apologize for the delay. I have had a lot of things I needed to process, emotionally, physically, mentally. I have a long long road to go, but I realized today that I neglected my family here so I wanted to come back and share an update.

I had a couple of threads in a couple of places discussing my emotional state - you can catch up here and here - I decided to start a new thread, but those two previous threads are important background.

To recap, about a month ago, someone I knew from high school reached out to me after reading my Facebook "I'm getting a divorce" post. I didn't know this person well in high school, but I lived in a small town and we had a lot of casual interactions at town events, school, etc. It turns out we had a lot in common, not even about divorce, but personality wise, life goals, etc. It was a very exciting conversation and it led to more and more conversations. We met up a couple weeks later and things have been going really well with us ever since.

We talk quite frequently and it's very flattering for both of us to know that we are attractive to someone else. She is just starting her journey and is drafting her divorce complaint now. We are able to talk about things we've learned during each of our journeys. She's got two young children and is working with her family and friends to find an apartment. She and I have talked about the concepts of dependency and rescuing behavior and have both agreed to check ourselves. We are also very careful not to spend more than a few minutes talking about frustrations and co-ruminations  regarding our STBX spouses.

I would characterize what's happening as a close friendship that has the strong potential to develop into someone much bigger at the right time. We have what appear to be strong romantic and sexual feelings toward each other, and without elaborating, these are things we're comfortable exploring if and when time permits. But each of our primary focus remains on our children and our divorce case.

I'm really glad I have this relationship in my life - we both seem to be able to communicate extremely well, and we're both aware of our roles in our past relationship dynamics. We're both seeing therapists and we both are learning skills on our own. And the best part of all of this is that we can bring these skills back to OUR relationship and practice them, discuss them, try again, and do it all at a very slow and controlled pace.

For those who followed me previously, you know that the initial phase of this relationship was NOT quite as controlled - I admit that - I felt so good I probably lost myself a little bit. But thanks to everyone here, my therapist, and just my own careful considerations, I think I've pulled this back into a much more reasonable and controlled pace.

Sorry again for the delays, folks. All of this is very fresh, raw, and sometimes hard to process without a little space.

[david]

My ex filed early on that I be evicted from our house. However, she left the residence weeks prior. In the eyes of the court she abandoned the residence so I was allowed to live there still. Ex was allowed to live there also even though she claimed she was in fear of me hurting her. She had nothing to show I ever did anything that would warrant such a fear. I had a protection order against me saying I was not allowed to follow, stalk, or physically assault her. The judge was covering his butt.
My first attorney was horrible. Eventually I figured that out and got a better attorney. My new attorney explained things better and told me what to expect most of the time. We worked as a team. He told me what he needed to accomplish my goals which made it easier since I knew what to give him. I also gave him things I thought were critical/important. He kept them all and did point out what he thought was important. Learning what the courts want and being able to produce such evidence is the key to success.
Introducing evidence as evidence was a big deal for my situation. The process of introducing evidence slows the court down. Everything must be in triplicate, it has to be introduced as evidence, labeled and tagged. However, judges must make their decisions based on the evidence provided. Verbal testimony is not as strong as physical evidence. Having documented evidence changed everything in court for me.

[Insom]

Thanks for the check-in, DaddyBear77! 

It sounds like you're doing great.   

Can you say a bit more about what you did to find yourself after getting "lost" for a bit?  What did that process feel like while you were going through it?

[Panda39]

DaddyBear77,

It sounds like you are prepared and have a good team.  Wishing you well next week. 

Panda39

[Radcliff]

DB,

Sounds like you've done some great preparation.  Thanks for the update.  I think your priorities now are on track -- take care of yourself, try to relax as much as you can, and rest up for the big day.  Have you been able to start exercising?  Taking walks at least?

WW

[DaddyBear77]

Thanks Insom - great question.

So something like a divorce, whether expected or unexpected, seems to really throw your life into disarray. I initially responded with strength and did an initial alignment of resources to handle the initial phases of lawyers and responses. But then I slipped into a passive mode. I spent a lot of time looking for one on one support, and also validation from friends. I started to realize that the friends that helped the most were the ones I've known since before I was married. What that meant to me was that reconnecting with myself needed to start with a time before I met my wife. Luckily, we tend to meet a lot of people in high school and college, so it turned out a lot of people remembered me and I remembered them, even though it had been many years since we connected.

Another thing I learned quickly is that being my authentic self needed to be my number 1 priority. I had spent so long being someone that I thought someone else wanted. I realized that I knew all along what was important to me and what wasn't. I realized I was a good person, and most, if not all, of the people that my wife had declared "toxic" were really just people who had differing points of views on some topics, but were really kind and loving people who wanted to help.

What finally put things back together for me was a trip back to my hometown area. I hadn't been there in many many years, and I was finding that so many of my kindest and most compassionate friends were still in the area. So I made it a point to visit a few of them, and then again this weekend I'm visiting again.

Reconnecting with that part of my life has helped me feel whole again, and has recharged me with the strength I need to get through these next phases.

Regarding the budding close friendship and potential romantic relationship, that has also helped me find parts of myself again I was afraid were lost. Luckily my feelings of love and romance are still there, but these parts are way more complicated and touch other deeper issues I have to work through. I'm realizing that finding myself is my first and foremost priority. Luckily, my friend is also on that journey so as I said, my hope is that we can both take that journey, slowly, together.

[DaddyBear77]

Thanks for your story, david - we have some strong similarities. I had also anticipated an attempt at eviction, and it also appears that my STBX has rented another apartment and is slowly moving things out of our house into that house. I think it's clear that she's been advised not to move too much. It's also clear that she's been told she can take as much money as she needs to out of the joint funds. So there's some struggle with finances but my hope is that things will be clarified next week.

I will share a little more in terms of specifics - my STBX refused to complete what we call her Case Information Sheet - this is a sheet that outlines our financial situation, and both parties are required to complete it in our state. What she alleged in her filings was that she was completely unable to access any of our financial information - I had lied to her and kept it from her. In my response, I was able to provide multiple e-mails I had sent her or copied her on, detailing things like discussions with bankruptcy attorneys and copies of our tax returns. I was able to provide photographs of whiteboards where we laid out all our incoming and outgoing money each month, with most of it in her handwriting. I was able to provide copies and screenshots of a shared Google spreadsheet where we tracked monthly bills, which, by the way, was so complete that my attorney was able to accurately complete most of the Case Information sheet on my behalf. I have backup files from nearly every iPhone we've ever owned, and therefore was able to extract numerous text messages that had financial discussions.

The result was that my motion filing had the maximum 25 pages of text, backed up by nearly 100 pages of Exhibits referenced in the text. My wife had few, if any evidence to back up her claims, and the evidence she did have was very weak. For example, she had a signed letter from the Woman's shelter that she attended counseling at. I half joked with my attorney saying "If you give me a week or two, I could also attend some sessions and get a signed letter, too!"

It's my hope that I'm as well prepared as I feel like I am - as I said, I feel well served by this attorney who helped me collect everything I might need and weed out the things I didn't. But in the end, I realize it's up to a judge who is human and there's always the potential that my wife brings such a good "A" game that she slips one past the goalie so to speak. Lets hope that's not the case.

[Notwendy]

Another thing I learned quickly is that being my authentic self needed to be my number 1 priority. I had spent so long being someone that I thought someone else wanted. I realized that I knew all along what was important to me and what wasn't. I realized I was a good person, and most, if not all, of the people that my wife had declared "toxic" were really just people who had differing points of views on some topics, but were really kind and loving people who wanted to help.



This is a great realization.

I think your response to meeting a caring person at the time you did is understandable. A starving person finding an ice cream shop would go overboard. You've been starved of caring, validation, support and surely it felt amazing. I imagine the danger warnings of too much too soon are in part because a person in this state is in a state of need and deprivation, and emotional pain- and long term decisions are better made from an emotionally more stable place.

You asked about learning relationship skills with someone else in a similar situation. I can share my observations from attending  co-dependency recovery groups. I have seen people do this both in a relationship and without one. Most people come to the groups on their own, and some are in couples. What's been interesting to me is when two people in the group pair off. Some pairings last, some don't. I considered it a red flag at first but then, I thought maybe not a bad outcome for all of them - if each of them is working on themselves with the help of an objective guide.

There are many reasons for the warning not to date during the early recovery period from a divorce, or even when just starting out to work on co-dependency- as you already know. I think the bottom line for me is that- in or out of a relationship it is individual personal emotional growth. Each person has to own their own stuff and work on it. It can't be done for someone. Also, another possible pitfall is the tendency to be too helpful and taking on the role of therapist, coach, sponsor for each other. Two people emotionally in the same place may have limited perspective.

A valuable aspect for me was having objective people ( counselors, sponsors) turn the mirror on me. It isn't pleasant and at times I felt angry and that it was unfair. However this led to more growth than if they had validated my own perspective. We also need to have good friends and feel validated too and it is good that you are reconnecting with friends... I think it is great that you are remaining in personal counseling.

[flourdust]

It sounds like you and your team are well-prepared. Great!

This is looking like a very familiar playbook for those of us who have been through divorce with spouses with BPD. You are arguing from evidence; she is arguing from emotion. This is how I think things are likely to play out in the short term.

1) In court, your ex may act out or speak up emotionally. This is going to be difficult to hear, and it may push your buttons causing you to want to respond and re-enact some old marital arguments. Prepare yourself to avoid reacting. Let your attorney talk for you -- and CHECK WITH HIM/HER BEFORE YOU SPEAK UP IN COURT. You don't need to win an emotional argument in front of the judge -- you will do better to demonstrate that you are not there to engage in emotional arguments!

2) The judge is not likely to make any dramatic rulings on the spot. The judge wants to get to a point where both sides can come to an agreement, everyone is operating from the same set of facts, and any deviation from an equitable split of custody and finances is justified by facts and expert opinion. For example, on finances, the judge may ask you to provide access to all records going back years to the other side and ask them to provide a budget and balance sheet based on supporting evidence. The judge is likely to order an evaluation where there are separate sets of facts - very likely a parenting evaluation, possibly a financial evaluation.

3) Any emergency motions filed for things like spousal maintenance, parenting schedule? You'll probably get a ruling on those shortly (note: shortly can be 1-2 months after the hearing), or you might get referred to a rapid response mediator if your county has services like that.

Overall ... .it's probably not going to be a really dramatic experience with sweeping decisions made. However, you'll see how your ex composes herself in court, you have a chance to demonstrate that you don't act down to her level, and your behavior may lead to favorable initial rulings.

[livednlearned]

Is your attorney recommending that you do any talking/testifying?

[DaddyBear77]

Is your attorney recommending that you do any talking/testifying?

No specific recommendations yet.

My STBX still has a chance to file a response to my counter claim and cross motion. That deadline is Monday. After that we talk specifically about the hearing expectations

[livednlearned]

I'll be curious if your L encourages you to testify this early on in the process.

I found that even sitting next to my L, not testifying, made me weirdly cold while in court. Maybe it was a physiological thing, I don't know. I seemed to struggle with tremors or slight shaking during the hearings. It's weird how the body expresses emotional stress.

My L didn't prepare me for the physical part of court much. I had planned to bring a small notebook so I could focus my attention somewhere, but apparently anything you write while in front of the judge can be shared with the other L, at least that's how it works where I live.

I'm not from a denomination that uses worry beads, but I wish I had something like that to fiddle with disretely while in court, to help calm me and focus my breath.

Like flourdust mentioned, you will likely hear outrageous things in court, said by the other L (part of the theater, btw) and it's hard to keep your emotions seated. People in my court were admonished for sighing too loudly, or rolling their eyes. One guy kept doing it and the judge threatened contempt of court if he continued to do it while his ex was testifying. To make matters worse, the judge kind of treats people like little kids, so then you can feel 5 years old and helpless, just dealing with the judge.

I also did the superman pose in the bathroom stall before my hearing   There's a TED talk about power poses and I took 2 good long minutes in the bathroom doing those poses before my hearings. Never felt sillier, but they seemed to help!

You may also want to ask your L if you can wait in a conference or settlement room before trial so that you aren't standing in the hallway eyeball to eyeball with your ex while you wait for the Ls to show up.

I also took 6 flights of stairs so I didn't end up in the same elevator with ex and his L (happened once). Nothing like being a bit winded to take your mind off things 

These are just little hacks that helped me manage my emotions in court over the years, little things to help me stay grounded. Maybe others here have suggestions for things that helped them stay grounded in court.

One member PM'd me from court with a message that just said, "In court. Right now."

A little lifeline back to your favorite peanut gallery, where people know what you're going through and deeply care.

 

[ForeverDad]

My ex's typical response was to make allegations.  She only once claimed DV (that was years later when I was seeking full custody) and I think it was because she was the one who faced a Threat of DV case at the start of our separation.  However, she made every sort of child abuse allegation possible.  It was predictable that she would make one shortly before a major hearing, as though she wanted something to wave in court as "Aha! I got you!"  And I could expect one when she flubbed up and needed to make me appear worse than her.

So don't be shocked or devastated if your stbEx makes allegations against you.  Courts don't get in a tizzy about them, neither should you.  Be prepared, of course, and be protected.  In general, don't do anything or say anything that could be misconstrued as you being angry or abusive.  Even if stbEx is shouting at you, demeaning you, accusing you, disparaging you, shaming you... .stay calm, don't give stbEx any ammunition to use out of context.

[david]

My ex used to make lots of false allegations. I tried defending myself in the beginning. That didn't work as she just made more. When I stopped reacting, by defending myself, things quieted down for a while.
It started again but were less in number. When I didn't react she upped the ante by adding things to her accusation by adding details as if that made it true. I ignore them.

[Radcliff]

DB,

What time are you getting with your daughter right now?

Now would be a good time to go to court to observe and get familiar with the room.  See when this week the same judge is presiding, and see if you can sit as a spectator to get a feel for the room, how people conduct themselves, and how the judge acts.  An advanced visit can give you quite an edge on the day of the hearing.

WW

[flourdust]

DB,
Now would be a good time to go to court to observe and get familiar with the room.  See when this week the same judge is presiding, and see if you can sit as a spectator to get a feel for the room, how people conduct themselves, and how the judge acts.  An advanced visit can give you quite an edge on the day of the hearing.

I'm curious where you got this idea, WW. In my family court experience, the courtroom was occupied only by the participants -- the judge and her staff, the lawyers and their clients. There's room for spectators, but one would stick out like a sore thumb.

[livednlearned]

I'm curious where you got this idea, WW. In my family court experience, the courtroom was occupied only by the participants -- the judge and her staff, the lawyers and their clients. There's room for spectators, but one would stick out like a sore thumb.

In my court, everyone receives a 9am appointment.

Then the judge looks at who is on the docket. Certain urgent but quick matters were prioritized and handled first, then the quick matters went next.

Then longer hearings like mine went last.

Only then did the judge ask who was in the courtroom and why. Sometimes there were law students there, and sometimes people who were in the wrong courtroom. One time we had a journalist.

A few times there were people who had upcoming hearings and wanted to know how things worked. For one of the hearings, the judge asked the person (kindly) to come another time. For the other hearing, he asked us if it was ok to have people (there were three family members together) in the court during our hearing.

You might be able to call your clerk of court to ask what the norms are for where your hearing will be held.

[ForeverDad]

My county (or state?) is the same, only the two parties go into the hearing room, and the children don't enter either.  Everyone waits in the common lobby area for the clerk or bailiff to send people in.

[flourdust]

You might be able to call your clerk of court to ask what the norms are for where your hearing will be held.

Good call.

[ForeverDad]

I wrote the below confusing your post with another's post.  This is temp orders, not a trial but I'll leave it as advice you may need sometime in the future.  Temp order hearing is usually brief, perhaps only a half hour.  Judge will be inclined to order 'typical' terms.  You and your lawyer have the task to ensure the judge understands this is not a typical case.  Probably you can't go into all the details, but summarize enough with documentation at hand to get as much as you can nailed down in the temp order.

Who will have temp custody and be the temp Primary Parent with majority time and responsibility for school?  That is foremost.  If you expect obstruction, uncooperativeness and conflict or discord to continue, highlight that.  Can you get Decision Making or Tie Breaker status?  Vacation time is here.  Make sure vacation rules are referenced or quoted in the order.  Also, look up the court's list of possible holidays, strike out any not observed and include that.  Often vague terms like "reasonable" telephone contact or exchanges at "mutually agreed" locations give a blocking ex ways to sabotage things.  Vague expectations in the boilerplate do work for most reasonably normal parents, but not our cases.

Be prepared in case you hear at the last hour that your ex wants to settle.  That's what happened to me, I arrived at court on Trial Morning and was greeted by my lawyer with the news she was finally ready to settle.  It wasn't a total win, but we hammered out enough to match fairly closely what the Custody Evaluator probably recommended.

Why not list the terms you need in priority order, the must haves, the should haves and the would like to haves.  If you do end up striking a deal, it will probably be done in a few hours.  You don't want to overlook any major issues, clauses or loopholes.  And remember, your lawyer types it up and you go over it with a fine toothed comb.  Sure it will cost a little more but if her lawyer does it you can be sure it will have mistakes and loopholes.

[Radcliff]

I'm curious where you got this idea, WW. In my family court experience, the courtroom was occupied only by the participants -- the judge and her staff, the lawyers and their clients. There's room for spectators, but one would stick out like a sore thumb.

Way back when I went to the police station to introduce myself and see how our police responded to DV calls, they handed me the card of a DV advocate at a local nonprofit.  She suggested that I go to court, and offered to bring me.  People get a 9:30am or 1:30am appointment, and I think it works like LnL has said.  There were people for four cases or so sitting in the courtroom waiting to be called.  It was small enough that the bailiff was aware of everyone who was there.  After a while, he asked what we were doing, and we explained I had a case coming up, and he was cool with it.

Be prepared in case you hear at the last hour that your ex wants to settle.  That's what happened to me, I arrived at court on Trial Morning and was greeted by my lawyer with the news she was finally ready to settle.  It wasn't a total win, but we hammered out enough to match fairly closely what the Custody Evaluator probably recommended.

It can go the other way, too.  Once, we had planned to get a continuance with agreement to both parties on a stipulation and at the last minute it fell through.  I didn't think I'd need to be in court, and my lawyer called me and told me I needed to be there in half an hour.  So, until you've got all the signatures, don't count on any agreement keeping you out of court.

WW

[DaddyBear77]

So all the filings are in now. My STBX filed her last 10 pages by the deadline Monday, and in my opinion, she seems to be digging herself into a deeper hole.

It might help everyone here if I laid out the proposals from each side, so you can see what the topics are:

For background, my income is made up of 70% base pay and 30% commissions. For the last 6 months, I've received less than 10% of my target commissions. So, my monthly take-home pay is about 75% of target.

From the Plaintiff (my STBX):
1. STBX permitted to obtain separate housing, while I pay non-taxable support totaling about 90% of my base pay
2. STBX is designated "parent of primary residential custody" (what others have called 'tie breaker' or 'decision maker'. I am allowed every other weekend and dinner on Wednesday
3. I am barred from allowing my parents to visit with my daughter
4. We must advise each other of out of state travel
5. I must attend anger management classes
6. I must pay all shelter costs of our home (mortgage, utilities, etc) (about 50% of base pay)
7. I must maintain insurance coverage
8. I must pay all unreimbursed medical, dental, vision, etc costs
9. I am prohibited from dissipating marital assets
10. I must pay my wife's legal fees, including an immediate retainer as well as any incurred costs to date.


If you add up the above, the total payments being asked for come to 140% of my base pay, which is 40% more than I'm currently making a month. This doesn't even include paying for my basic needs such as groceries, gasoline, etc.

So, this is how I responded:
1. Deny STBX's motion
2. Equal legal and residential custody of our daughter
3. STBX stays in home or finds her own means to pay for an apartment, etc. We each have exclusive parenting on a 5-2-2 schedule with me taking Mon-Tues, STBX has Wed-Thur, and we alternate Fri-Sat-Sun
4. Immediate sale of our marital home and sale proceeds are escrowed
6. Until the home is sold, I pay shelter expenses totaling about 50% of base salary
7. I pay an additional 25% of base salary directly to STBX for spousal and child support
8. Jewelry is appraised and held in escrow
9. Part of my 401k is withdrawn and used for immediate expenses (e.g., legal)


My STBX responded saying that she is sure I'm hiding money, and will seek discovery of my hidden savings. She did some crazy calculations saying that even though I'm not making what she thought I was making, I should still pay more than what my paystubs show because somehow the commissions are just going to show up randomly. I'm somehow hiding my income, I guess. She also reiterated her demand for legal fees.

Given all evidence I submitted with my original motion, I've got to imagine part of this is her attorney sweating bullets. My STBX went into her attorney's office crying poverty and saying she was being financially abused. When I submitted my motion, I also submitted the required information sheet outlining my STBX's extensive assets. My STBX submitted a blank information sheet and claimed I was so abusive that she had no idea what SHE even had, I guess? Regardless, the facts speak for themselves - my STBX has tens of thousands in savings in HER name, as well as an additional tens of thousands in jewelry and other assets.

So that's the deal - I'm really really interested to see how this all gets merged into a final order.

Oh, by the way, in terms of family court, I've actually been to a few trials. In my recent job, the court system was one of my customers. I've tested and installed some of the IT systems they use. It's really interesting, though, to hear about the different ways hearings are held in different jurisdictions. WW, that was a really good suggestion by your DV advocate.

[Radcliff]

Do you have documentation of your wife's separate bank account assets?

I don't recall if your wife works?  If so, does the court have documentation of her income?  If not, have you asked that the court impute income?

Have you read ":)on't Alienate the Children" yet?  I'm just about done.  Your wife's approach seems typical of an aggressive/extreme approach.  If you have not read it, I'd advise you to hurry through it.  It's good reading.

WW

[ForeverDad]

She can ask for the sun, moon and stars, doesn't mean she will get it.  Courts often seem tone deaf when making appeals for logic but generally courts are "less unfair" than the ex.

If ex is not working, then why not?  Your theme in court needs to be "StbEx can work.  Being a parent does not absolve her from an obligation to support herself, if not now then by the time the transition from married life to post-divorce is completed.  StbEx and I have one child of school age.  Mother, like millions of mothers today, can work while using sitter or daycare services before and after school on her parenting time.

Her legal expenses should come out of her portion of marital assets.  If I advance her money for her legal expenses then it will will be deducted from her portion of marital assets later.  (This is a tough one.  A judge may just order you to pay now and not have it linked to a fix when addressing the financial aspects at the end of the divorce case.  How to avoid that?)

I don't know how my lawyer did it but I only paid child support during my divorce, no spousal support.  Sure, there was alimony for 3 years after the final decree, but I don't think the major income earner can be forced to relinquish too high of a percentage of his income.

About the claim of hiding money or assets, if substantial then a Special Master or forensic accountant can be hired to dig deep.  But if it's only about pay and commissions then a judge ought to be able to review it and see whether there is any validity there.

A caution about being "too fair" ... .most of us here have wonderful qualities for fairness and empathy.  But in our sort of high conflict divorces they're a downside, a risk that we could seriously sabotage ourselves.  So beware of gifting away too much of your income.  Err on the tightwad side, at least a little, that way if the judge grants her a little more, the judge can make it seem she 'won' something.  If you offer too much, judGe probably won't rule that you pay less than you offered!

What does your lawyer say about this?  Yours is a relatively long marriage and may get treated differently than a marriage of 5 or 8 years.

[flourdust]

Looks like a typical maximalist opening move. It's an indication that your wife's attorney does not approach negotiation from a cooperative stance. This doesn't mean that anything in her offer will end up in your final deal, but it does suggest that getting to that final deal can be a protracted, expensive experience. (Ask me how I know. Sigh.)

And you got off easy! Only 90% of your pay? My wife's proposed budget for maintenance was 180% of my salary! 

Is this her temporary motion or her proposed settlement? It looks more like the latter. If it's the former, the judge is likely to ignore a lot of this and just focus on immediate needs for support, parenting schedule, etc.

Once you get past the temporary motions, the judge is going to ask your lawyers how they want to resolve the big difference in your settlement proposals -- trial, mediation, etc. The lawyers may also ask for discovery and evaluations prior to mediation or trial -- document discovery, of course, parenting evaluations, mental health evaluations, possibly a forensic accountant to satisfy any claims of hidden accounts and disparities in claimed income.

You're still just at the start of this process. Don't try to think through the end-game too much -- a lot will happen before you get to that, and the final resolution is likely to look very different than either of your proposals.

[livednlearned]

In what way does she dig a hole for herself? Do you mean with the financial abuse tactic?

Given all evidence I submitted with my original motion, I've got to imagine part of this is her attorney sweating bullets

My experience with lawyers is that they are ethically bound to represent their clients, so that's what they do -- they represent us. You may have occasion to see your L blow hot smoke at your ex's L in court, and then chatting amicably at a later date. They are colleagues paid to put aside those relationships when they represent their clients in court.

Her L is on retainer, and gets paid whether ex gets everything she wants or not, no?

the facts speak for themselves - my STBX has tens of thousands in savings in HER name, as well as an additional tens of thousands in jewelry and other assets.

Is there a discovery or forensic accounting process coming next?

What will your response be to anger management classes?

I notice there are no classes suggested for her... .

My somewhat cynical take on court is that judges rule toward whatever will reduce the most conflict, while sticking to any technicalities (to prevent the chance of any appeals overturning their ruling). They don't want repeat customers and they don't want their rulings overturned in appeal. If you look back over both filings from the perspective of a judge who doesn't want to see you again, living in the same home could create more conflict, even though it saves you money. It took me four years to figure out what was going on in my court, and it could be different than what goes on in yours, but it is possible that you receive a ruling that makes no sense given the facts. Only when I looked at it from the perspective of a judge trying to minimize conflict did anything begin to make sense. That's why people like david and others here talk about solution mindset and -- it's about giving the judge information to rule toward less conflict.

It's hard to predict this stuff.

I hope things go well for you on Friday

 

[bgg2745]

Gentlemen, whether BPD or modern social immaturity or a combination of both, it is time to be part of "Fathers Rights "movement for changes to the laws that profit this industry and destroy families empowering the selfish (a growing majority) This system enables and enabling does not help BPD sufferers.

[ForeverDad]

Unless you have bad behaviors that can be readily documented to the court, there's no way the court will order Anger Management classes.  Undergoing AM orders indicate some level of serious bad behavior.  Do Not volunteer/agree/settle for AM orders.  No way!  It can and will make you look bad and almost surely would hamper your own efforts to be an involved father.

Of course, if she wants to take Anger Management, no problem, let her.  But there is no basis for you to do so and never ever agree to that.  If a judge orders AM for you then it had better be for valid/solid reasons.

However, it is standard for both parents to be ordered to attend Parenting classes.  Advocate for that.  You can list that, though the court may order that anyway, whether you ask or not.

[david]

During our divorce, ex filed three protection orders against me. The courts went along with every one. The first allowed us both to live in the same house ? I realized later that it was the judges way of covering his butt. The second one, ex said she was afraid of me when I came to pick our boys up. I suggested I pick them up at school instead of her residence. Judge loved the idea. It solved a problem for me and our boys too because ex would not let them have the school bags when I went to her place to pick them up. I forget what reason ex had for the third one. Our county hands out protection orders on Wednesday. It's very common and easy to get. If they issue one for three years then you know there is a real reason.
Ex also said I assaulted her and I was ordered to take an anger management assessment. It cost several hundred dollars and said there was nothing to support her claim. It was a waste of time and money.
We went through equitable distribution. Ex claimed I stole 1.2 million in assets. The thing is it didn't total more than around $30,000 and I had solid proof that she was in possession of at least 85% of the things she handwrote in her petition. When her attorney seen some of the evidence they went out of the room and we settled in about 20 minutes. It was in my favor. I actually agreed with her valuation and simply asked for my half in cash. My attorney liked that idea and went with it. We both knew it wasn't going to happen but it changed the "negotiation" in my favor since she had no proof of anything and I had solid evidence. Her attorney diid not want to go in front of a judge with the little evidence she saw especially since I agreed with exs' valuations.
Eventually I built a big moot around me to protect myself from ex and her allegations. I purchased a video camera and an audio recorder. I let her know right away about the camera. It is not allowed in our state but I figured it would protect my from her nonsense. The nonsense just kept costing me money for no good reason. I was always on the defensive and our courts are biased. I got yelled at by several judges since ex always brought it up in court. Never had any consequences. Eventually my attorney said I needed to stop because a judge may do something. I thought about it for a few days and called him up. I asked if it was okay for me to video myself sitting in my car waiting for our boys to come out of her residence or videoing myself whenever ex was near since there is no law against that. He liked the idea and said he could argue that in court. That was in 2010 or 2011. I still have both in my car but rarely use it since exs' behaviors changed. She stopped making allegations because she believes I video every close interaction.
My first attorney was horrible and when I found a good one things did get easier. We worked as a team and he would keep me informed about what to expect and how he saw things playing out. He was correct about everything we were in court for. He was mostly correct about things outside of court. The things he didn't get right were because exs' behavior wasn't expected. I learned to anticipate what she would do in certain circumstances and it got better after that. My attorney started trusting my take on what ex would do in certain circumstances.
We were court ordered to attend coparenting sessions for 10 months. After three meeting the counselor asked me if I wanted to stop attending as he noticed there was no way he could see any compromise. I questioned it since it was a court order and he assured me he could write to the judge and explain I was not the issue. Ex was in the room at the time. I stood up, shook his hand, said thank you, and never looked back.
I would offer what the state minimums are and nothing more as far as money is concerned. Our state has a calculator for child support and alimony. There are many online sites that have the same formula that the courts use.
A friend of mine went through a divorce and felt guilty. He offered much more than was required. I tried talking to him. I told him if he paid the state requirements he could always give her more if he so desired. He didn't do that, the economy changed, his business went south, and he almost lost everything since he was not allowed to renegotiate what he agreed to.
My ex was certain I was hiding money too. My attorney, during equitable distribution, simply said to her attorney that if she wanted to continue making such claims he would insist on ( I forget the name but it is probably similar to forensic accounting). It's an expensive process and her attorney did not call his bluff. Remember, it is a game with a bunch of rules. The better you play the game the easier it is to "win".  "win" -accomplish your goal with the least amount of money and time.