Discussion: "Avoiding them is not the key.. avoidance is impossible".

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Avoiding them is not the key... avoidance is impossible.  Learning the tools and healing and working on us is what is going to make the difference.

[Harri]

Avoiding them is not the key... avoidance is impossible.  Learning the tools and healing and working on us is what is going to make the difference.

[Learning2Thrive]

Avoiding them is not the key... avoidance is impossible.

I’m going to agree to disagree on this one. Avoidance is not always impossible. If I know sharks are in a certain pool, I can choose not to get in that pool. Now, it’s possible that I could get in a shark free pool but somehow a shark from another pool jumps in to mine. I get to choose whether it’s best to protect myself and my pool or find another pool. Knowing which to choose takes courage and wisdom.

Learning the tools and healing and working on us is what is going to make the difference.

Yep, because with the right amount of healing and judicious use of tools, we may discover what we thought was a shark is really a lovely dolphin.

  I love how you get me thinking, Harri.

L2T

[Harri]

L2T disagreeing is okay but I don't think that is what is happening here.

You *can't* avoid them... .you will encounter them it is a fact of life.  You said it yourself: "Now, it’s possible that I could get in a shark free pool but somehow a shark from another pool jumps in to mine. I get to choose whether it’s best to protect myself and my pool or find another pool. Knowing which to choose takes courage and wisdom."  This is what I was saying, just using different words.  You can't avoid them though.  You will run into them at work, the store, the doctor's office, etc.  Something like 24% of the population has a diagnosable psychological disorder.  Though, if it is your pool, why would you leave/avoid your own pool?  Choosing to give away your pool is the same as giving away your power.

'they' are every where.  They may be friends with a friend you do not want to leave... .learn to deal with them and keep them at arms length, or know there will be limits on your relationship and be okay with that.  Not all people are psychotic, dangerous and harmful.  Most are just hurt and damaged and struggling just like we are. 

Red flags are important to look for to an extent, more so I think in the earlier stages of healing.  later on though you have to look at how you respond to the red flags.  Do you shrink down and go into victim mode?  do you over react and over defend?  Do you simply note that they are not dealing well with their own red flags and keep them at arms length while using the tools?  How do you respond?  Is it possible to avoid everyone with a red flag?  No.  Not only is avoidance not possible it teaches you nothing and does not allow you to develop the skills to protect yourself.  Avoidance alone leaves you open to being damaged and abused and at the whims of your own emotions, usually fear.

 

I’m going to take this a step further and say we must also be willing and able to protect ourselves... .and that is our responsibility to ourselves.

I agree.  Self protection is critical, but so is how it is done.  You can't always write off people as red flags to be avoided.  Some can't be and you have to be able to manage yourself and not fall apart.  You can be triggered, but triggers can be managed.  It is not always possible to find "another pool", another job, another family, another service provider, etc.

Again, I will always come at this from a perspective of personal power rather than avoidance or weakness.  Just my opinion.

Yep, because with the right amount of healing and judicious use of tools, we may discover what we thought was a shark is really a lovely dolphin.

Exactly... .but avoidance is not going to get you to this point.

Good discussion.

[Learning2Thrive]

L2T disagreeing is okay but I don't think that is what is happening here.

Well, to a degree it is what I’m talking about here in the context of the subject line: Realizing that a real parental/child relationship isn’t possible

You *can't* avoid them... .you will encounter them it is a fact of life.  You said it yourself: "Now, it’s possible that I could get in a shark free pool but somehow a shark from another pool jumps in to mine. I get to choose whether it’s best to protect myself and my pool or find another pool. Knowing which to choose takes courage and wisdom."  This is what I was saying, just using different words.  You can't avoid them though.  You will run into them at work, the store, the doctor's office, etc.  Something like 24% of the population has a diagnosable psychological disorder.  Though, if it is your pool, why would you leave/avoid your own pool?  Choosing to give away your pool is the same as giving away your power.

I certainly can identify the dangerous ones and choose to avoid them.

For some there are no better tools than silence and distance. Again, context of the subject line. Choosing to walk away is a valid choice and definitely takes more strength than foolishly engaging with a sociopath.

The reality is that my mother would not ever move here. She needs her flying monkeys in close proximity. And if she did move here, I would ignore her because I owe her absolutely nothing. If she attempted to physically assault me as she did through my childhood and young adult years and after my first child was born, I would have her arrested and press charges.

'they' are every where.  They may be friends with a friend you do not want to leave... .learn to deal with them and keep them at arms length, or know there will be limits on your relationship and be okay with that.  Not all people are psychotic, dangerous and harmful.  Most are just hurt and damaged and struggling just like we are.  

This is a form of avoidance.

Red flags are important to look for to an extent, more so I think in the earlier stages of healing.  later on though you have to look at how you respond to the red flags.  Do you shrink down and go into victim mode?  do you over react and over defend?  Do you simply note that they are not dealing well with their own red flags and keep them at arms length while using the tools?  How do you respond?  Is it possible to avoid everyone with a red flag?  No.  Not only is avoidance not possible it teaches you nothing and does not allow you to develop the skills to protect yourself.  Avoidance alone leaves you open to being damaged and abused and at the whims of your own emotions, usually fear.

  I agree.  Self protection is critical, but so is how it is done.  You can't always write off people as red flags to be avoided.  Some can't be and you have to be able to manage yourself and not fall apart.  You can be triggered, but triggers can be managed.  It is not always possible to find "another pool", another job, another family, another service provider, etc.

Again, I will always come at this from a perspective of personal power rather than avoidance or weakness.  Just my opinion.
Exactly... .but avoidance is not going to get you to this point.

Knowing which ones to avoid will quite possibly keep me alive. Not everyone gets in just because they want in. The rest are handled on the spectrum, using the tools and according to their relevance to my life.

L2T

[Learning2Thrive]

Though, if it is your pool, why would you leave/avoid your own pool?  Choosing to give away your pool is the same as giving away your power.

As a survivor of domestic violence in my first marriage, I gave up my pool because it was not as valuable to me as my life or ending the abuse my kids were witnessing. I have power as long as I am ALIVE and able to choose what is best for me.

L2T

[Harri]

L2T, I appreciate that my comments may not apply to your personal situation and circumstances but i think they apply to the more general conversation that was happening here. 

That is what i am addressing rather than talking about my own individual situation which is by no means an easy one and could be considered an extreme.  The problem is we can't have a general conversation when talking about extremes even when those extremes may be our own stories.  That would be a great targeted thread for you to work on.  If I had known that was where you were coming from i would have responded differently and suggested that to begin with.

Good conversation.

[Kwamina]

The discussion about 'avoidance' I also find interesting.

I would distinguish though between avoidance as in trying to totally avoid people to avoid having to do the hard work of healing and working on our own issues and setting boundaries as a way of keeping ourselves safe, boundaries to protect and preserve our own well-being. In the former we are avoiding the underlying issue and indeed in the long run not solving anything at all. While in the latter we are taking steps to protect ourselves which for instance could allow ourselves to heal.

The context is indeed important. Remember that when enforcing/defending boundaries, there are various options we have depending on the circumstances:

Value:	I treat everybody with respect
Boundary:	It is not respectful to dominate or control by screaming
Action:	Communicate my values. Lead by example (education - proactive)

Value:	I treat everybody with respect
Boundary:	It is not respectful to dominate or control by screaming
Action:	When a hot topics begin to simmer, I redirect the discussion to a safer topic.  (incident avoidance - proactive).

Value:	I treat everybody with respect
Boundary:	It is not respectful to dominate or control by screaming
Action:	I will take a time out or hang up (incident avoidance - reactive).

Value:	I treat everybody with respect
Boundary:	One cannot be respected in a consistently verbally abusive environment.
Action:	I will remove myself permanently from the environment or until there is change (total avoidance).

[JNChell]

L2T, I was actually hoping that you would show up! Glad you did. How did the ride go?

I bobble in and out and all around that place of hyper vigilance too. I think it comes with the territory after surviving years of abuse from parents then choosing romantic partner(s) that have similar traits as our parents.

It most certainly comes with the territory. I think that this is the healthiest take away from our situations. The important part is being aware and having a sense within ourselves that we need to move beyond this feeling. Personally, I don’t want to spend the rest of my days stuck in a defensive/reactive mode. The tools have been discussed here. I have resources available to me, that when learned and implemented, will allow me to “swim with the sharks” without being eaten. Figure of speech of course. I’m actually terrified of the ocean. I like to view it, but ankle deep suits me just fine. You know, I read one time that at any given moment in the ocean, if we were in the water, there is a shark within 15 feet of us. Now, they could be little and harmless sharks, but they’re there. Kind of like society, and kind of like the pool analogy.

then I start doubting myself AGAIN (because I am broken, stupid, not good enough, not deserving enough, yada yada yada because not even my own mother could love me so why would anyone else ever treat me better than an old wad of already chewed and spit out gum?).

  I know what you’re saying. These are awful feelings, but the important thing to know is that we were conditioned to feel this way when we were our most innocent selves. We were little sponges relying on our adults. As we have become adults with children, we know what’s right and what’s wrong. Unfortunately, some of us have come to this conclusion by reliving our childhoods through intimate relationships.

By virtue of all this, a relationship with my mother (she is still alive) is absolutely out of the question for me. It is 100% NOT SAFE and I don’t OWE her anything or an explanation to anyone.

Kudos! I know the pain that is involved with a decision like this. Abuse is no longer allowed. Grieving the parents and childhood that we didn’t have is, IMHO, the hardest part of this. It’s like we don’t have roots, but we feel like we have to be an Oak.

[JNChell]

Hello, Harri.

belief in ourselves to handle whatever comes our way.

This is where it’s at! We should’ve been taught this from the day that we were born. We weren’t. We’ve figured it out. I think that this makes us very strong and badass. That’s just my healthy narcissism.

Avoiding them is not the key... avoidance is impossible.

I’m going to approach this with generalization because other members and Newbies need to be considered. As do the lurkers. We know you’re there! 

Avoidance is impossible. This is a general take on the matter. These people are everywhere. If I’m correct, you said 23% of the population. That’s a staggering number, but it isn’t surprising considering the variables and enabling resources. I wonder about social engineering at times. Triggered psychopaths would enjoy it.

[Learning2Thrive]

So my questions to everyone still reading (hello lurkers, please join in the conversation):

Have you ever drawn the line in a dangerous relationship (not one instance, but an established pattern over decades) conflict that resulted in total avoidance or NC (per Kwamina’s description/usage above)?

For those who have, did you ever adjust/alter to LC or normal contact at a later point? If so, how did that work out for you?

L2T

[isilme]

Have you ever drawn the line in a dangerous relationship (not one instance, but an established pattern over decades) conflict that resulted in total avoidance or NC (per Kwamina’s description/usage above)?

Yes.

Avoidance is very possible if they live in other towns/states.  And just might be necessary if they were particularly abusive.  Even the idea of seeing my father, even in his 70s now, triggers a fight or flight response in me.  Logically, I know he's an old man, pathetic and sad in how he's treated all of his biological kids, and how he's more concerned with appearances than reality.  He can no longer use a belt to leave marks up and down my 2-10 year old body.  He can no longer threaten me with withholding love or affection for being less than perfect.  He kicked me out, disowned me, that check bounced a long time ago.  But that ingrained fear of the boogeyman with dead, no-body-is-home dissasociated eyes and a belt from being a toddler is still in this 41 year old body, and no matter how much I face it, and rationalize it, it's burned into my amygdala. 

Mom is a mess, angry at me for being someone other than her.  For choosing to have my own life over integrating into hers again as I did as a child.  She poorly manages her life in attempts to make me rescue her, leave my husband, leave my job, move to her state, and somehow work full time but be her maidservant, BFF, buddy all over again while providing for her. 

If my SO treated me within the same logarithmic scale as my parents did (yes, he has BPD, but the partner-relationship is a lot different overall than the parent/child one, and also, his BPD is not on the same order of magnitude as theirs), no one would bat an eye at telling me it's totally okay not to stay in contact with someone who beat me black and blue and gaslit me for years, or someone who stole my identity and would manufacture a series of escalating crises to try to get me to come to take care of them forever.  Throwing in the words "mother" and "father" should not make abuse acceptable, or the boundaries needed to protect you less acceptable.

I have to say what you face/faced, and how strong you are is a big factor.

What are the circumstances of contact?  H has trouble being around his sister.  But he can manage with some minor dysregulation about it before and after, for the holidays and so on.  If we were expected to interact day to day, it might be harder. 

For those who have, did you ever adjust/alter to LC or normal contact at a later point? If so, how did that work out for you?

Dad was easy to go NC.  His pride made him disown me, I say you can't take that back.  He was the scarier one of the two, both in his capacity for outright violence, as well as his ability to hide it from everyone else.  He is close to a sociopath, I think, smiles and hides the awful very well.

Mom, she's a sad sack.  Everyone can see it if the interact long enough, her instability, her desire to be a victim in charge, having her way but no responsbility.  And I was her caretaker.  She was MY daughter until I was 15.  It was very hard for me to not share my wedding photos with her, so I took her off "blocked" online.  I am not responding to her at all, but she can see aspects of my life.  Mostly, she just likes every damn thing I post, but as long as I am not getting calls from debt collectors looking for her, I can deal with that.  If I get uncomfortable, I will simply block her again.

If either of the summon me for a deathbed visit, (morbid, I know, but it's weighing on my mind more and more as years pass) I do not know what I plan to do.  Dad, I will probably just reply, "I'm sorry, my father disowned me in 1997, in writing, in triplicate, sent certified mail to multiple addresses to be sure it was understood... .in which it was stated a hope I would crawl back to him on my hands and knees in a fit of depressed despair. I don't have a father as per that document.  Who are you?"

If it's mom... .ugh.  Dad lives closer, she's the one I'd feel FOGed to go see, but the idea of spending the $$ I don't have to travel to Tennessee to make contact I don't want.  Ugh.

I feel I am only as strong as my boundary, and my past experience has shown me that my little boundaries (don't give out my name to debt collectors on your behalf, etc) don't matter, can't be enforced - I can't reason with her.  I have nothing other than contact with me to use as a tool.  It's all I can use to enforce any boundary, and so I have to have the BIG boundary of "don't contact me at all" for any progress on my part.  Any time I am in contact with her, I am either so cold I feel "what's the point" to feeling myself wanting to fall back into easy roles and just "take care of her".  NC is really the only way I've disengaged at all, or pretected myself and H from mom stealing my identity.

[Skip]

Good comments, isilme. I think this is a very good point.

I have to say what you face/faced, and how strong you are is a big factor.

These are two really important factors:

What We face/faced

I think the magnitude and the level of current wounding (vs past wounding) is important factor.

Magnitude is clear - anyone who has gone through physical abuse recovery knows that it is a very important and deeply person decision to decide if we want to have any relationship with past the abuser. There is no universal answer. 

Timing - when things are ongoing, it makes sense to get out of the field of battlefield - to heal and regroup.

For older injuries, I remember a member of this board saying that we are no longer the innocent children - we are equal adults (in many cases) to our parents and have better skills than they did/or do (in many cases). As adults we don't depend on them any longer (in many cases).

How strong (healed) we are

True healing is an internal strength. We can padlock the refrigerator or the wet bar, and that can be very instrumental as a bridge to our healing, but true weight loss or recovery from substance abuse in not in the lock, its in the commitment to be strength and clarity of mind.

[isilme]

Just regarding my experiences - others have circumstances where lives are still intertwined or NC forever has not been a thing:

its in the commitment to be strength and clarity of mind

Yes.  I think I have had a slow-going amount of healing.  It took me till age 30 to even realize I felt rage at them for how I was treated.  It's taken a lot of seeing how my friends raise their children with love and care to even realize just how bad it really was. The overt abuse was not daily.  It was often, and it's really easy to point a finger at beating a child literally black and blue, and say, "that was pretty wrong."

It's another thing entirely to learn that most of your mom's conversations, and even some of your dad's, bordered on, and crossed lines into, covert incest.  That the amount of self-rearing I had to do, the independence I had to learn so young, it was NOT normal.   I used to feel proud at how much more "grown-up" I was compared to my peers as a child.  I didn't need anyone to get me dressed, feed me, or out the door.  I got myself up on my own thank you very much, you are just needy and childish, not like me.  I was actually taking pride in being neglected.  Slowly, I am just seeing more and more how disordered they were.  This isn't an 80s parents versus modern parents issue, where I was just a latchkey kid because of necessity and no one felt it was that bad at the time.  I had a latchkey because my mom was passed out on pills, possibly face down in the yard.  I wasn't independent because of a loss where I had to step up and help take care of siblings or a grieving parent.  I had an ill parent, ill from over medicating.  Ill from mental illness.

To this day, I have a hard time stating what I like or don't like.  I have had to be so malleable t simply get along with the world, it feels rude to state "I like X, or I don't like X".  I am NOT strong when it comes to them.  I may never be strong. 

I also have to ask what I would get in return for reaching out, for allowing any access.  How would this heal me?  Would it be like an alcoholic going into a bar and confidently turning down any drinks?  Do I even want any input from them these days?  Can they even offer any not meant to manipulate me? 

we are no longer the innocent children - we are equal adults (in many cases) to our parents and have better skills than they did/or do (in many cases). As adults we don't depend on them any longer (in many cases).

I don't think I am an equal adult.  I had to be more of an adult than they as a child.  And I've had to outlearn my old responses from them to be able to grow at all and outlearn even more to be able to stay in my relationship with my BPDH.  If anything, I think THEY were less adult overall in how they view life, their sense of entitlement from others, their inability to accept responsibility. 

I have no reason to believe they have better skills.  Maybe no worse, but no reason to believe it's any better.  They managed to deny they had issues for years before and concentrated on me (or each other) being the cause of all strife.  I don't know that Sam Beckett or Clarence the Angel haven't visited, but I have no reason to think they have, either.  That pool might have harmless sharks with no teeth, but shark skin can still hurt you if you hug one.  And a bitter old shark may go get dentures. 

And, since I no longer depend on them in any way, certainly not money or room and board forever now, not even for validation, emotional support, family linkages, I'm not sure what I'd even get from reengaging in contact.  What?  They never could give me love - not what I needed as I see my friends give their kids, but just a twisted love of an item, an object owned and beholden.  They never could seem to give me support, hope, consistency.  It's correct.  The pleasant things I can remember, going to movies, I have that, but those people are gone.  They've been gone.  The ones still living are just sad strangers with the same names and some possible shared memories. 

What kinds of things would other people on here want?  We can't have "normal" parents.  We will have, at best, a relationship with a disordered person that hopefully has some fruit in it, not just labor.  I think all the fruit my parents could offer fell from the tree long ago. 

My healing has mostly consisted of working on giving up the idea of what I did not have as far as parents.  I think I am mostly successful.  I accept they did what they knew, and what they knew was not good overall.  I do not hate them.  most days I have little feeling about them at all.  I may have some disassociation going on, I am not sure. 

Some of the things they did I guess have made me, me, and I don't hate me as much as I did as a teenager. 

I am not the worst person in the world, nor the best by a long shot.  I was both ahead of my peers and well behind them in different ways.  I could cope with not knowing how to do things without it being explained, I had to figure everything out myself.  I don't know how to accept a hug without wanting to cry.  I can't understand friends who sassed back as teenagers.  I can't understand knowing you belong anywhere.  I am here, now.  I hope the be here, tomorrow, but I won't place bets on anything. I have higher emotional control than most people, which helps in unpleasant situations.  I can cope in an emergency, and H lets me break down for a while later as I need to.  I can usually adapt to whatever, and have been told I get along with a weirdly wide variety of people.  So, all in all, my childhood was strange, weird, painful, but it's over, and the me of today see my parents as just landmarks on those old roads. 

I know many on BPD Family have no wish to go NC.  And you know what, it is wonderful you are in a place where you can learn, can try to manage boundaries, and can keep those relationships.  I went NC before I even found BPD family.  Those scabs are dry, trying to grow skin, and I am not sure if picking at them for me, and others like me, is going to do us much good.  I am not avoiding them, so much as I have decided it's not going to give me any catharsis or piece of mind to reach out. 

[zachira]

For me, there are two kinds of avoidance: 1) Shutting down emotions and running away in fear, which does not heal the shame and pain, and only magnifies the unresolved trauma. 2) Mindfully deciding to limit contact or not have any all together, while leading the most productive, happy life possible. This type of avoidance helps to heal the pain though it never goes fully away. Just my two cents.

[Learning2Thrive]

How strong (healed) we are

True healing is an internal strength. We can padlock the refrigerator or the wet bar, and that can be very instrumental as a bridge to our healing, but true weight loss or recovery from substance abuse in not in the lock, its in the commitment to be strength and clarity of mind.

I like this comparison and agree with it for the most part and it’s great for those who aren’t dealing with dangerous people. I do believe that IF a relationship with abusive parents can be salvaged safely using our tools and resources, that is the best outcome. I honestly wish I could have that. But reality is that the disorder exists on a spectrum an not all outcomes can be best outcomes.

Looking again at your comparison above, please remember there’s at least one big difference. Food and booze or drugs don’t have a corrupt physical mind of their own. They don’t have a lying/berating actual voice, potentially weaponized body or legal rights of their own. And, they can’t make false allegations against you. Dangerous people can do all that and more.

Furthermore, I don’t know a single recovered acoholic who chooses to keep booze in their house. Most I know are vigilant about not being exposed unnecessarily to situations where heavy drinking is involved. Likewise, the folks I know who have been successful in losing a lot of weight and keeping it off are ultra vigilant about the type of food they allow in their home.  Why would I ever want to open myself up for more of what was heaped on me all my life and has taken 53 years to get to this point (overall the healthiest I have ever been physically and mentally). No thank you. I am not going back because nothing has changed on that end.

We teach safety first here, right? As adults, we each are responsible for choosing what is best and safest for us, right? I’m not promoting running. But I am also not going to invalidate someone who tells me that no contact is the best and safest choice for them. I’m going to support them with SET and encourage them to work on themselves, get therapy, practice good self care, etc.

I appreciate this opportunity to respectfully discuss these difficult choices.

L2T

[Kwamina]

Hi all

I think it might be helpful to again consider the various options we have when faced with certain situations. As has been noted, there are various vailid responses depending on the circumstances. If we consider the term 'avoidance' in the context of 'the things we can and the things we cannot control', it does make sense to me that we indeed cannot always avoid encountering certain people or situations, no matter how hard we try.

An example, I'm NC with my older brother for personal reasons as NC always is a very personal decision. Having said that, I cannot control his behavior and where and when he pops up somewhere. So several years ago in the midst of NC I actually did encounter him at a family-event when he unexpectedly showed up. NC was and is still very much in place, yet that does not change the fact that I did encounter him there. And when these kinds of unexpected encounters do happen, it can be very helpful to also have some targeted tools in our arsenal for dealing with these kinds of interactions. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, when defending/enforcing boundaries, we have various options to achieve that goal.

So I think if someone would say that total avoidance is not something we can totally control, it can refer to the fact that we cannot totally control our circumstances and the behavior of other people. However, what we can control is how we respond to people and circumstances. There is a large grey area for us to explore, sometimes (unexpected) encounters are inevitable or unavoidable but that does not imply that we should therefor have a relationship with someone we deem a threat to our well-being. It's just stating the fact that unexpected encounters are still possible and it can be helpful to also be prepared for those scenarios, not because we want them to happen, but because there is a possibility that they will happen.

The Board Parrot

[Learning2Thrive]

Hi all

I think it might be helpful to again consider the various options we have when faced with certain situations. As has been noted, there are various vailid responses depending on the circumstances. If we consider the term 'avoidance' in the context of 'the things we can and the things we cannot control', it does make sense to me that we indeed cannot always avoid encountering certain people or situations, no matter how hard we try.

Yes, I agree. Nothing is totally within our control except our own choices and actions. My father is dead, so no need to be concerned there. My mother lives thousands of miles away and is very unlikely to pop up unexpectedly.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, “my mother would not ever move here. She needs her flying monkeys in close proximity. And if she did move here, I would ignore her because I owe her absolutely nothing. If she attempted to physically assault me as she did through my childhood and young adult years and after my first child was born, I would have her arrested and press charges.” If she harassed me or my family in any way, I would hire an attorney to obtain a restraining order.

I wish my mother peace and happiness and hold no ill will toward her. I just will not allow her to insert her abuse into my life ever again. I hope she finds some healthy peace in her life, but I doubt that is possible because she enjoys causing trouble, breaking rules and inflicting pain while she smiles to your face.  I will never trust her ever again. Far, FAR too much damage has been done and I can still see that creepy smile on her face and hear the glee in her voice as she enjoyed her victims’ suffering at her hands/manipulation to ever trust her again.

My sister that I am currently no contact with, it is possible I could run into her as she lives just the next town over. I’m not concerned about that. I could say hello and exchange pleasantries as if she were any other stranger on the street. Whatever bond we had or that I thought we had, she destroyed with the last round of deceptions, betrayals and mind games. We are strangers, but she is not in the dangerous classification that my mother belongs to.

Good discussion. Thanks, Kwamina.

L2T

[Fie]

Harri my friend !

You are right, they are everywhere  :-P
So we cannot 100% avoid them - even if we wished we could. For me avoiding them means limiting my time spent with them.

Like, I have some really difficult colleagues who I sometimes have to work with. I do that, but it stops there. I don't spend my lunch break with them.

And the absolute limit is : no personality disorders in my pool.  :-)

[Woolspinner2000]

Maybe this has already been said, and as Skip pointed out, timing is a big part of it. Sometimes we need to avoid those who are triggering or unhealthy to us because we are not ready yet to even make any attempts at a more "healthy-for-us" interaction with that person.

Very early into my journey to healing, it seemed as if everyone I encountered who was even slightly reminiscent of my uBPDm would send me over the edge. I couldn't always get away as in leaving the room, and the triggering was difficult. Yes these were always opportunities to heal, but they did slow down my progress significantly. As I became stronger, then I could sometimes deal with LC, but not always. In my new workplace setting there is one person who I am unsure of, and it is partly because she reminds me of people that I have had struggles with in the past, and then there is my own personal projection of fear because of those reminders. Rather than fear her all the time, I spoke with my T about it, and he gave me some great suggestions about how to deal with her when I see her. That is going to be very helpful I think.

Wools

[Star0009]

I'm still figuring out how much contact to have with abusive family members. I also have let people in who put up red flags and I overlooked them seeing the best in them and then they hurt me. I also worked places where I was getting bullied by certain people because I had no boundaries to protect myself and self esteem so I took anyones abuse. Now when I get challenged in a group situation with a toxic person or even someone not being so nice I stay strong and true to myself and not let them get to me but brush it off and focus on the positive people around me. By staying strong people that have started off trying to bully me eventually accept me but at the end of the day I find them silly and would chose not to be good friends with them. Its a hard road for me but I'm growing. Also with a BPD Mom who convinced me from the youngest age that everyone was picking on me and to be hypervigilant of everyones actions and take them personally that I have also been working on. Like in the class I take and love and am accepted by everyone but I said something while out to lunch with some of the ladies and I saw one lady roll her eyes at me. Normally that would have been it. I would have felt they all hated me but I realized what I said was a little silly and that was just her personality and if this one women finds me a little odd so be it. I still like her and talk to her and haven't written her off since or anything as hurtful. This is huge for me and what I have to continue to work on. Now do I want to walk into the lions den of my family right now where slight gestures and words might be purely bullying and abusive ? No. I'm staying low contact with them at the moment and if I see anyone in person it will only be in a public setting with support for a short meal or something but even that I'm not ready for at the moment. I try to limit even messages from them right now as I work on myself. I think it is up to you and the level of abuse you think you have endured and knowing yourself to say if you want to avoid someone all together and if that is best for you then do so by all means. I think you will meet toxic people in life you may have to tolerate at a job or something but  finding your inner strength you will stay centered to simply put their behavior back on them and ignore it and focus on everything else good around you. You get to pick your boundaries with every person you are in contact with and chose how much or little you want to put up with something. That is the beauty of being a grown up and not a child at the mercy of abuse. 

[Cromwell]

Hi everyone

id like to just touch on what stood out for me;  hypervigilance along with the stats - 30% of the population has a diagnosed mental illness/personality disorder.

what about the undiagnosed ones?
what about, absent of mental illness - just nasty people anyway.

when I went through that stage of heightened anxiety, I got to hypervigilance stage; suddenly the whole tank was shark infested. there is no avoidance.

there are people I have to interact with every day; in the "caring" profession of all places, I have to smile to get along, yet the bad vibes are something cant run away from at the same time have to hold back from. a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing; ive had my experiences with PDs, ive had my experiences, had a bit of psychology, aware now of the stats; blend it all together and if I let it get to me, i wouldnt leave the house. There was a period of weeks where I did just that.

drawing this towards "committed" relationships - yea, just leave if possible, and i mean possible rather than "difficult". Its not worth the health expenditure, it gives a gurantee of "no joy".

I "discard" many more people nowadays that I wouldnt have in my former very naive, gullible and overly trusting self - I dont see it as a bad thing, it is seperating the wheat from the chaff, the biggest difference is listening to the intuition, not rationalising so much. It is rationalising anyway, albeit - picking up on very discreet non verbal cues.

bad vibes = not interested, avoid if possible, tolerate for as short a time if unavoidable.

live with? "serious" relationship; no f way. Life is too short and I owe it to myself not to share it that way. 3 years with BPD was enough, I hit my quota. Walking away from that - felt - impossible, but I managed it. If I had been bonded via marriage, kids, whatever... .makes is harder, but I would have found a way.

family members or parents; same rule applies, its not came to it yet but if it did, I dont see what a chromosone transfer has to do with living a quality of life for myself, causing ill health and sucking out all joy from life just based on that.

I know it can appear a crude way of approaching a "complex" situation, just sharing what works for me. I dont put with BS anymore, regardless of who it is. LC? nah, what is the point. Its like saying I dont mind being distressed once in awhile rather than the choice to be free from it all entirely.

[Lien]

I know this topic has been silent for a couple weeks and I didn't read everyone's replies, so my reply might repeat other things said. This is actually part of a conversation my husband and I are having right now that spurred on some of my most recent posts so after a bit of lurking I thought I'd chime in. These are only half-formed thoughts right now, so I hope they make sense!

The big question my DH and I have been asking ourselves (after our period of no/low contact with certain family members) is if avoidance of drama/problems/stress is our end goal/motivation or if healthy boundaries and wellness are. Our situation is not nearly as extreme as others' on here and I don't think there is necessarily a universal application, but for us avoidance and boundaries feel like two different things.

We've been questioning how we define these two words (my MIL has several times told us that we are avoiding things after we put our boundaries in place). We're trying to figure out if we're ready for "re-entry" so to speak, and if we chose not to, we want to make sure that we aren't just avoiding dealing with things, but are dealing with things through knowing our limits and boundaries. We can't control other people's actions, but if I live in a state of avoidance of a person or what they do (which to me would be living in fear of those things, reactive to their previous actions or my ideas on how they will act in the future), I believe I would be letting them/their illness dictate my life and actions. I'd be orchestrating my life to make sure I don't encounter them or their drama, thus giving them/their drama more energy and time and power and space in my life, compromising my boundary of not wanting to live in their grip. On the flipside, if I choose to live with healthy boundaries in some ways it may look exactly the same on the outside but to me feels more proactive. I've got limits on my engagement with them when I encounter them or their drama, but I'm not trying to control whether or not they show up in my life or what they do. In our circumstance and experience, they inevitably will show up and things will happen. Healthy boundaries just means that when we engage it will only be what we are comfortable/able to do, which to me is different than avoidance and leaves the power in my hands not theirs.

So the way I see it is that avoidance of encountering them is impossible, avoidance of being in relationship with them is definitely an option but I would maybe just call it good boundary of choosing not to participate in the drama/cycle/triangle... .Avoiding a specific person/type is one thing and will not in the end protect you and keep you healthy - if it is not this person it will be another - but "avoiding" behaviours through healthy boundaries sets you up for success in all relationships, not just the current one you're dealing with.

All of this is nice in theory, but clearly from my other posts I'm struggling with the practical reality of it all!

[zachira]

If you can't totally avoid them, find a way to have contact with them where there is a witness, either another person present or have everything in writing. People with BPD tend to do the most damage when they are alone with you, and most people don't get it about the abuse because they have a different kind of experience with the person with BPD. People with BPD tend to like to look good in front of others so they will often behave better when most people are around and/or they will not want their bad behaviors recorded in writing.