Brought Up BPD - it didn't go so well

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So, as my last-ditch effort of helping my marriage, or at least being able to let go with less guilt, my T instructed me to go ahead and address the elephant in the room (BPD), with my previously oblivious uBPDh. We'd had a small breakthrough after hearing the symptoms of BPD on a TV show we were watching, where he started sobbing and said, "I have all nine."

I'd been a little hesitant to bring it up because he'd been in "good mood" mode mostly for a few days and I didn't want to flip him into splitsville so soon after he'd been splitting like crazy for weeks prior. I decided to talk to him while we were out at a nice wine bar this weekend. I mentioned the TV show and said that I thought it might actually be really good to explore that possibility, that it could be really helpful to address it in some way. I watched as his eyebrows furrowed into a horrified expression.

"I'm NOT doing therapy or medication!" he said.

I said, "Okay, well, a lot of the time medication isn't part of treatment... ."

"It's a total waste of time!" he said. "I just need to be making money, that's the only thing that will help!"

I dropped it for now. I figured there was no point in pressing the issue. The therapy arguments always go the same way:

1. He says he doesn't need therapy, that it doesn't work, and that he needs to just make money to feel better.
2. He refuses to take any lower level roles, even though he doesn't have a college degree and jobs that don't have such a requirement are few and far between.
3. He begs me to invest in some crazy endeavor that he claims is the only solution, that he can't do anything else.
4. If I don't invest, he accuses me of not believing in him and splits, and I'm the bad guy.
5. He continues doing what he has always done: nothing, and occasionally doing some low wage freelance work (Uber, selling things on eBay, charging Bird scooters, writing one article a year for a small publication).
6. He is filled with self loathing and rage because he feels bad about himself. He calls himself a "deadbeat" on occasion. He's triggered easily and spends the whole day acting out his rage on social media, trolling groups and people on Twitter.
7. He goes really low and gets down on himself - sometimes going into deep, deep depressions where he doesn't bathe or clean, or even get out of bed.
8. He recognizes something is wrong with him and starts talking about it.
9. I suggest solutions: therapy, workbooks, YouTube, etc. He refuses, saying it doesn't work.
10. Lather, rinse, repeat.

My therapist did say I would have to have several conversations with him, but I don't even know how to get into the topic again. He balked at the very mention of treatment for BPD, even though now he admits he has it. It's so aggravating. I guess I have to wait for another low point, or moments where he's not super splitty, but I don't know when that will be.

[WitzEndWife]

So, as my last-ditch effort of helping my marriage, or at least being able to let go with less guilt, my T instructed me to go ahead and address the elephant in the room (BPD), with my previously oblivious uBPDh. We'd had a small breakthrough after hearing the symptoms of BPD on a TV show we were watching, where he started sobbing and said, "I have all nine."

I'd been a little hesitant to bring it up because he'd been in "good mood" mode mostly for a few days and I didn't want to flip him into splitsville so soon after he'd been splitting like crazy for weeks prior. I decided to talk to him while we were out at a nice wine bar this weekend. I mentioned the TV show and said that I thought it might actually be really good to explore that possibility, that it could be really helpful to address it in some way. I watched as his eyebrows furrowed into a horrified expression.

"I'm NOT doing therapy or medication!" he said.

I said, "Okay, well, a lot of the time medication isn't part of treatment... ."

"It's a total waste of time!" he said. "I just need to be making money, that's the only thing that will help!"

I dropped it for now. I figured there was no point in pressing the issue. The therapy arguments always go the same way:

1. He says he doesn't need therapy, that it doesn't work, and that he needs to just make money to feel better.
2. He refuses to take any lower level roles, even though he doesn't have a college degree and jobs that don't have such a requirement are few and far between.
3. He begs me to invest in some crazy endeavor that he claims is the only solution, that he can't do anything else.
4. If I don't invest, he accuses me of not believing in him and splits, and I'm the bad guy.
5. He continues doing what he has always done: nothing, and occasionally doing some low wage freelance work (Uber, selling things on eBay, charging Bird scooters, writing one article a year for a small publication).
6. He is filled with self loathing and rage because he feels bad about himself. He calls himself a "deadbeat" on occasion. He's triggered easily and spends the whole day acting out his rage on social media, trolling groups and people on Twitter.
7. He goes really low and gets down on himself - sometimes going into deep, deep depressions where he doesn't bathe or clean, or even get out of bed.
8. He recognizes something is wrong with him and starts talking about it.
9. I suggest solutions: therapy, workbooks, YouTube, etc. He refuses, saying it doesn't work.
10. Lather, rinse, repeat.

My therapist did say I would have to have several conversations with him, but I don't even know how to get into the topic again. He balked at the very mention of treatment for BPD, even though now he admits he has it. It's so aggravating. I guess I have to wait for another low point, or moments where he's not super splitty, but I don't know when that will be.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I am sorry you're going through this, especially the rinse and repeat - you know what is coming up.

I am asking you why you think it is important to address BPD, meaning have your H address it?

It's been my experience that my normally very high-functioning wife will take a blow for some reason, consider that she might have / be a problem, and take responsibility.  And then in a day or two, have the whole thing projected and blamed away, and usually forgotten.  I have wanted to blurt out BPD, but then I realize it wouldn't do a lick of good.  

I wonder if your H's case is similar, and maybe even more unnecessary to push BPD awareness, since it seems like his lows are very low-functioning.  I don't think (sometimes) recognizing or admitting he has a problem is the problem.  Sufferers might realize they have a problem, temporarily.  Then they go back to wherever the fear and conditioning have driven them in the first place.

I do believe strongly that if you feel you should address the elephant in the room, then do so.  And with your T, you probably have a good reason.  But, I bet it will do _you_ the most good of all.  Say what you have to say. Let H brew on it, but, don't expect any more improvement.  Once you've said you piece, be ready to live your own life going forward.  We can't change anyone else!

Good luck, and my thoughts are with you!

[once removed]

My therapist did say I would have to have several conversations with him, but I don't even know how to get into the topic again. He balked at the very mention of treatment for BPD, even though now he admits he has it.

someone very close to me, while in a low moment, confessed "i probably have a mental disorder.". i brought it up again not long after (and not very skillfully at all), and they completely denied having ever said it. this person was also pretty averse to therapy or really any mental health help or coping strategies.

its tough.

does your therapist have any ideas about how to broach the subject?

[formflier]

"I'm NOT doing therapy or medication!" he said.

 

I really think you need to be clear that you will not live with those symptoms (the 9 things).  You will respect his decision over his medical care and that you expect him to respect your choice to protect your health... by avoiding those 9 things.

Once he gets to the point where he understands it's really a choice... it may help.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

So if he’s not willing to do therapy or medication, then he obviously expects you to be his caretaker, his financial support, his cleaning lady, and his personal chef.

Which of these roles are you willing to do for an indefinite time?

[AskingWhy]

WEW, I am glad the television show opened your H's eyes to his problems.  He knows he has a problem.

The challenge is now to see just how open he is to examining his issues or whether he will go into denial.

My uBPD/uNPD H has a suspicion that he is not normal, yet he still blames me for being a part of the problem.  When he dysregulate and, say, punches a hole in the wall, he demands that I own up to the part I played in the dysregulation. Blaming is a common cognitive distortion.

Your situation with your H is similar to mine.  As I think a lot of my H's disorder is from childhood interaction with his father (uNPD/uBPD), and his father is still alive and elderly, I think issues will come to the fore when FIL dies.  H will have to confront his feelings about his childhood and how FIL used and abused MIL and favored his brother over him.  (FIL was very unloving to his W for over 60 yeas, and she worked hard to support their lifestyle.  FIL is very much like a spoiled brat in the body of an eight year old man.)

As Cat asks, what is your plan on how your H is aware of his BPD?  This is a hard question to ponder.  

If you have not already, you may wish to read, "Stop Walking On Eggshells."  It was an eye opener for me.

[SamwizeGamgee]

On the subject of books, "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Fjelstad, contains a lot of wisdom that really helps me.  It really freed me. 

[AskingWhy]

On the subject of books, "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Fjelstad, contains a lot of wisdom that really helps me.  It really freed me. 

Thank you for the suggestion.  This looks like another book to add to my library.

[WitzEndWife]

Hi all,
I spoke with my therapist again this week. She now says, basically, the writing is on the wall for this situation. He is unwilling to get help, so there's nothing more I can do. She wants me to work on myself to get out of the FOG so I can make the decisions I need to make. To do that, we need to identify what the fears are. It's going to take a lot, but I'm willing to take it on.

[Cat Familiar]

As difficult as facing the fears can be, it's also very freeing. It's good that you're willing to look honestly at your feelings. 

[formflier]

I would suggest talking to your therapist about "forcing a choice".

I would agree with her so far, but I have the caveat of "given the choices he has now".

If he is given the choice that he doesn't live with you or have a personal relationship with you until mental health professionals (yours and his) recommend it and he is "complying" with treatment... .there is no telling what choice he will make.

Right now he understands he "doesn't have to".

There is only one way to see what choice he will make "when he has to."

Thoughts?

     

I'm so glad you have a T to guide you.

FF

[WitzEndWife]

First we need to work on me, so my T's goal is to take the focus completely off of him and back onto me. I'm supposed to journal all of my negative thoughts and fears, and try not to think about managing him. This week has been hard, really hard.

On Tuesday night, I came home to him being completely wasted drunk, on whiskey, and being totally unruly. He got really "handsy" with me and would not stop when I told him to, saying (jokingly - but not funny), that I was his "property" because we're married. I recorded him for a good 30 minutes on my phone acting foolish, and switching from obnoxious banter to trying to grope me, cracking a joke, and then falling down laughing at his own joke. When I rejected him for the third or fourth time, he started threatening to jump off of a bridge (empty, drunken threats, but still).

Last night, I had to go out to a work party, and he told me to have fun. He had texted me midway through and I replied, but later my phone died and I didn't have the charger with me. Of course, I guess that's when he decided to call and text me. I got home, and he was raging. I'd already had a horrible week at work (and with his little escapade), and he was sitting there berating and lecturing me. I apologized, but that never works. I said, "What would you like me to do?" He kept bashing me. I couldn't take it. I said, "What, do you want me to just kill myself then?" I was drunk and also feeling really low. He got angry at me for saying that. I don't remember a lot of the back and forth, but somewhere in the mix he called me "garbage" - that was fun. He left the house, I went and passed out in bed and locked the bedroom door so he couldn't come in.

This morning, he sent a string of text messages in which he sounds like the totally reasonable, normal one, calling me out for threatening self harm, and saying he won't stay in a marriage where his partner is using self harm as a weapon. "Hello, pot? This is kettle... ." Anyway, I'm really trying to put the focus back on myself, but this week has been terrible. Maybe he'll just leave me, since he's painting me as such a terrible person in his text messages. Doubtful, but at least it would make my life easier.

[formflier]

Good plan to work on you?

Have you talked to the T about how much you should listen to your hubby when he is doing "the BPD thing"?

From personal experience, ignorance is bliss.  If I stick around for more than 30 seconds of weird "you this and you that... ." kind of BPD stuff... .I'm ticked off at myself.

I control what I listen to, I don't control what my wife says. 

I have no idea how much my wife rages about me or any of that.  I suspect it's a lot less than she used to, because it no longer "works" for her.

But... the point is... I have no idea.

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Tricky trick.  I know how bad silent treatment feels.  I also used to consider it appalling to walk out of a conversation or a room in which you were being addressed.  For both reasons I stuck around far too many marital circular arguments and blame-fests.  
I got smarter, and noticed that when I stopped arguing (stopped all JADE) it was excruciating to my wife to lose her conflict and chaos addiction supply.  After many extinction bursts, she no longer gets, or craves (I think), the "high" of arguing.  

I have to practice giving the silent treatment and walking out of the room - even though both behaviors grate on my senses.  But, after being figuratively hit on the head enough times, I learn.

And, I'm sorry WitzEndWife that you're going through this.  Every once in a while I indulge myself and speak up / make a point / talk back.  It might not be the best everyday approach, but, I needed a few indulgences to keep my human and frail.  Don't be hard on yourself for arguing, especially if you've had a few drinks.  Again, not a good everyday habit, but, one has to go ahead and step on a toe every once in a while - in my opinion.

I got a chuckle out of you thinking H will leave you after saying you're a horrible person.  I have been steadily lower the bar on my husband behavior with the same hopes.  I totally did nothing and didn't react for our 21 anniversary.  It doesn't work, just makes her  more of a victim.
Still married, and counting.  

Hang in there!

[WitzEndWife]

I think you all are right - I need to just shut down and walk away. Unfortunately, having had a few drinks, I wasn't in my best, most thoughtful mindset. I agree, it probably would be a lot better not to go to battle, just to walk off and not listen to it.

[Cat Familiar]

Well, you weren’t at your best and who hasn’t said some crazy  when inebriated?

Your barriers were down and he was ragging on you and you spoke in a similar way that he has frequently in the past. You were drunk... .and he’s just that way, even without alcohol.

Maybe it’s an opportunity to not take his words so seriously since you were being dramatic about your feelings and didn’t mean to be taken literally.

You’re doing some self reflection that sometimes is uncomfortable. Changing patterns can be difficult and a challenge, but it ultimately gives you greater behavioral flexibility and that’s well worth the momentary discomfort.

[AskingWhy]

Hi all,
I spoke with my therapist again this week. She now says, basically, the writing is on the wall for this situation. He is unwilling to get help, so there's nothing more I can do. She wants me to work on myself to get out of the FOG so I can make the decisions I need to make. To do that, we need to identify what the fears are. It's going to take a lot, but I'm willing to take it on.

My T also hints at the same things.  Her book recommendations are no longer on BPD but self-care.  I am at the point of resignation with my uBPD/uNPD H.  This will open the door to decision-making for me and if I want to file for divorce.  I am more open to leaving than I have ever been in over 20 years of marriage.

[WitzEndWife]

I think it's hard to admit when it's time to let go. uBPDh has been really demanding of my time lately. I don't know how to separate from him sometimes. He's always around. The only time he does anything by himself is when he gets on his bike for a ride, or the rare instances when he goes out with a friend.

When he's gone I feel like I can finally breathe and be myself, and do what I want to do without facing comments or anger from him. Like, I bought two cartons of eggs at the store today (he's a sometimes vegan, and doesn't really like eggs) and he asked, "Why did you buy TWO cartons of eggs? Are you baking a wedding cake or something? You can't possibly eat all those eggs!" He said it in this extremely critical tone. I mentioned that I wanted to start eating eggs in the morning as part of trying to lose some weight. "Eggs, huh? Hmm... .okay!" he said, barely hiding his disapproval.

I try to think of what my life would be like without this constant nattering and nitpicking in my life. Without the disrespect of ordering me around instead of asking me to do things. "How about you feed the dogs?" "How about you set the table?" "How about you set the alarm?" I'm so tired of being on guard, of being henpecked. "So, are you going to be doing that all day?" "Looks like you're just going to be reading, so I'll go out by myself." I feel like being without him would probably be a tremendous relief.

Plus I wouldn't have to worry about introducing him to friends and coworkers, concerned that people would see what a jerk he can be, scared that he might be triggered. The people who know me well won't judge me because of him, but I'm afraid others might. I am worried about what his public social media troll posts might do to my own reputation.

I'm trying to focus on what my life would be like without him, the positives of ending things. I know that it is a process to get myself strong enough to end this, but I know that it's not going to end without me making that choice.

[Panda39]

Hi WitzEndWife,

I've been reading along and want to suggest another book for you as you work on yourself... .

Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself
by Melody Beattie

Link to the site's book review... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56458.0

I read this book after I had already left my marriage, so I wasn't in the same place you are now.  I do still think you will find this book helpful, it really helped me recognize some of the reasons I stayed in a co-dependent alcoholic marriage.  I relate to a lot of things you are saying... .recognize my self in your comments.  Since you are working on you and examining your relationship I think this book could be helpful, eye-opening and help create some great discussions with your Therapist.

Panda39

[formflier]

I'm trying to focus on what my life would be like without him, the positives of ending things. 

Is there a middle ground to try out?

What would life look like with him, yet without listening to the BPDish stuff he is hurling your way (which I completely agree you should NOT endure.

Is that something you have discussed with your T or that you would like to work through on here?

FF

[SamwizeGamgee]

Is there a middle ground to try out?

What would life look like with him, yet without listening to the BPDish stuff he is hurling your way (which I completely agree you should NOT endure.

Is that something you have discussed with your T or that you would like to work through on here?

FF

If I may comment, I am in the middle of this path, at the moment. I realized I could not be a part of the BPD-ish behavior cycles like I had been before.  Fortunately, I discovered that by my own learning, and monitoring my own behavior, I could avoid, diffuse, circumvent, or prevent altogether a lot of the bad behavior.  I could reduce the toxic effects.

On the surface, and for a few years now, one might observe that the techniques were very successful.  It's calmer at home, and we could say my better behavior is being modeled by my wife.  While in the past, she might have scolded or dismissed the kids, or lost it completely, I find her saying things I've said. She will say "I am trying to understand... .," "I think that's important... ." and so forth, pretty much copying phrases I put in the dialogue starting a few years ago.  So, we can chalk up a win to this middle ground that I think FF is suggesting.  Learning to live in and among the afflicted is important, and makes dramatic improvement.

However, I am looking at myself after a few years of this, and I have to say that for me it's taking a toll.  I've been the human voltage-regulator and surge-protector for so long that I think is is still causing long-term damage.  I'm not human anymore.  I have to have perfect behavior all the time, or there's a risk of hell to pay.  I look at myself now in the mirror and still see a guy on death row - albeit with a stay of execution, for now.  There's no real salvation on this path, just a tool set to make life tolerable, or better than before.   Among other things, there isn't what I think of as trust, intimacy, or love.  This is me learning to survive, and escape the emotional beatings and blackmail as much as possible.  By my own code, this isn't living. This is surviving.

I'm not advocating against the middle ground.  It probably saved my life and gave me a vital buffer zone to reduce the BPD behaviors.  In fact, it's probably essential to develop this middle ground - especially for someone like me, since kids are involved and I'll always have a relationship of some form with my uBPDw.   

But, I am also observing that I think it is still important to look at the positives of ending things, as WitzEndWife has suggested.  In an odd way, I've already ended a lot of things with my wife, though we are still married and live in the same house.  My body is married.  My emotional self is far removed from my wife, buried in concrete, surrounded barbed wire, and warning signs.  Deep down, it's  bad way to be: ended, but still not ended.  If that makes sense.  It's like having dead tissue in an old wound or something.  There can't be full healing like that. (sorry for the graphic example, but, it's all I can think of). 

[formflier]

  I have to have perfect behavior all the time, or there's a risk of hell to pay.  

I was generally with what SamwizeGamgee was saying until I got to here.

I would suggest that you be you, using tools but not trying to be perfect.  Be confident that when you do mess up that you have tools OR that you'll just let her deal with it herself, since you will be clear of frag pattern.  ( I got it... kids complicate this)

I've adopted a "stance" that as long as she is not "cussing at the kids", I don't intervene.  So, when I step aside and she stomps around the house, I let her make an A$$ of herself... .kids can watch or not.

If she starts "aiming" at a child, I usually step in and remove the child, vice try to "talk my wife down".

Note... this is rare now.  "Removing the audience" was shocking at first for my wife... but why pitch a fit is nobody is watching?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

I don't think we're quite "there" with going for middle ground yet. I'm still trying to write down and suss out my fears. I do think it's worth considering going forward, of course.

[SamwizeGamgee]

FF - Going along then on your warning, and thinking out loud. Maybe my pressure to be perfect, to avoid problems was an overstatement.  It is good for me to note that when I try to be perfect, so that someone else doesn't blow up, that is false.  
I guess I needed to have you call me on that.  It's like me taking pain killers for your headache.   Which explains better feeling like the human voltage regulator. I'll work on retracting that.
I will keep my comment that middle ground will prevent full healing.  At least that's how I'm seeing it right now.

[Cat Familiar]

I'll chime in here, as a veteran of two BPD marriages. Some individuals are just too troubled to ever be healthy marriage partners and there's no shame in ending those marriages for the sake of one's own mental health. Other people have more flexibility to grow and develop new patterns and with those, one can have a fulfilling marriage, though BPD will always be a component in the background, as something to be aware of and dealt with at times.

[formflier]

I will keep my comment that middle ground will prevent full healing.  At least that's how I'm seeing it right now.

I'll agree with that.

Personally... .if I listen to more than 10 or 20 seconds of blather, I'm disappointed in myself.  I usually go do something extra nice for myself if I have to exit like that, to sort of reinforce the notion that "she may think I'm not worth it, but I think I'm worth (a massage, special meal... fill in the blank)"

That being said, i'm still aware of a broken relationship (albeit a less broken one).  I'm still sad about that... .

So... .there is no "full healing", yet there is still some hope, because there is still some relationship and yes there are "good times".

As opposed to divorcing and calling it quits.  Hope of reconciliation would be gone, yet reminders of brokenness would likely be less.

If kids weren't in the mix, my world would be a lot less complicated... .massively less complicated.  Also would be far fewer blessings... .  Is it half full... or half empty?



FF

[formflier]

I don't think we're quite "there" with going for middle ground yet. I'm still trying to write down and suss out my fears. I do think it's worth considering going forward, of course.

You are taking steps on your journey... .that is without a doubt.  The "vibe" in your threads feels different to me.  I feel you are "less stuck".

So... .that's good.

That you are thinking things through is good too!


Can you talk with your T about how to deal with something like "the egg criticism".

Here is the thing... that' is something that saps your energy.  It's not fatal in and off itself, but if you get enough of those... .

My question would be why engage him on that.  (if not engaging leads to dysregulation or if monkeys fly... .let him deal with that)

you bring home eggs.

him weird tone (i SEE you are bringing home lots of eggs)

you  stay cheerful (Yes... .I'm making some in a minute, want to share a bite with me?)
 
(if he accepts... make him eggs... enjoy!)

him... get's weirder  (blather blather blather... .basically anything other than yes please)

you  friendly... .some firm "Hey babe... .my mind is so focused on other things, egg talk doesn't work for me right now.  I'll be available to talk further this evening.  Now I need peace and quiet."

Note:  it's all about you.

Then... YOU "take" the piece and quiet.  No more talk... .no more debate... .if you need to leave the house, lock yourself in a room, call the cops... call the Marine Corps... .call the wicked witch... or the good one... .

Assuming no real emergency, you decided you need peace and quiet... .you've let him know you can talk later... .nothing further to discuss... .validate... .SET... .pet... .stroke... .or hop on one foot.  You ended it... .for you.

Wash rinse repeat... .

What do you think your life would be like, if you did this consistently?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

My therapist is really trying to get me to a stronger place before I do anything relationshipwise. She is making me get some of my better habits back online (like going to the gym, or taking walks). I'm at an extremely low, depressed, weak state right now, and I am not ready to do what needs to be done. I have to get a little bit better myself.

Now, that said, it is hard when he's around because he is so demanding of my time, and he also blows up when I push back on certain things. Like, he has a habit of ordering me around. He loves to say, "How about you... .[insert task here]?" I told him the other day how I didn't like how he ordered me around, that I would be happy to do things for him if he just asked nicely. He became enraged at that, saying I was "trying to start an argument with him," and I stopped the conversation completely.

I'm almost thinking of going on a vacation or something soon without him. I can't really afford it, but maybe there's somewhere I can go that isn't that far away. I'll think of my options.

[formflier]

Can you have a specific talk with your T about what she wants you to do when he demands your time?

There is a circular quality to this that worries me.  He demands my time and keeps me down and I can't do anything about the relationship until I'm stronger.

I'm all for walks and gym, but that's like talking about what kind of garnish is better and expecting the main dish to get better because of different presentation.

Do you see the issue I'm raising?

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Can you have a specific talk with your T about what she wants you to do when he demands your time?

There is a circular quality to this that worries me.  He demands my time and keeps me down and I can't do anything about the relationship until I'm stronger.

I'm all for walks and gym, but that's like talking about what kind of garnish is better and expecting the main dish to get better because of different presentation.

Do you see the issue I'm raising?

FF

Yes, I see the issue, and I do get it, but I'm not ready to kick him out yet. I'm coming off of some very hard times with work AND home life, and I need to right the ship in order to do that. I get that it's not ideal with him around, but at least I'm not dealing with the emotional fallout of all of this. I was hoping to send him to visit his mom, but it looks like he probably won't be doing that.

I don't have a good solution at this point, so I keep trying to carve out some space for myself.