Is this too much to ask from someone who has uBPD or BPD tendencies/traits?

[sotiredofthis]

I'm feeling frustrated. My spouse is semi-diagnosed (psychiatrist mentioned it about 7 years ago but it hasn't been brought up since) and is currently battling depression and PTSD.

For years it has been difficult to have this relationship and I have been blamed for being emotionally unavailable, having poor communication skills, etc. We have been through 3 couples therapists and are on our 4th. It is looking like this therapist will be blamed for taking my side and having my spouse as 'the identified patient' instead of it being an equal sharing of pathology for our marital problems.

All I want is a spouse who can express emotions safely and calmly, who can self-regulate, who can contribute financially, who is confident in self and pursuing own growth and self-actualization, who is interested in physical intimacy but able to accept a no if that isn't on my mind, who loves my kids (stepkids for spouse) and can handle sharing me with them, who can handle a difference in body clocks that we have (I am best in bed around ten pm, she is best not out of bed until 10am), who can agree to disagree.

In writing all this out, I can tell this is not possible for a person with BPD traits. So what do I do?

I'm trying to have my own happiness dependent on me and what I do for myself. I take care of myself and have gotten back into keeping up with friends so that I don't feel isolated and because I am more social. We are setting things up financially differently so I don't feel so resentful of being the only one with a full-time job and paycheck. But I'm not satisfied. I want more joy in my life! And I want this joy to be with my spouse who I think with some healing and lots of hard work can be capable of it. But I feel like I've been so patient and my patience is wearing thin.

How do you keep going? Those of you who have figured it out, how do you do it? What mantras do I need to keep in mind to help me stay sane?

Thanks for any input.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi sotiredofthis, wow did all your points ring deeply with me.

I recently decided to give this marriage another try (with conditions), and find myself falling back into the same resentments, frustrations, and anger as before. My mind is turning again to thoughts of "more than this" and "real love".

So much that I was tempted this morning to text her a non stop string of "fxxx yous!".

But your right, we can't expect more from them. Expecting real love, caring and support from a pwBPD is like expecting someone with a broken leg to carry you. They simply can't do it.

I'm learning how to take care of the kids 100% on my own to be ready for all those times she is not reliable. These days I see her helping as a little "bonus" and not the norm I used to expect it to be. Her attitude is she was at home with the kids for 4 years and now its my turn (even though I also have a demanding full time job). This to me is not the attitude of a marriage.

I have also set some bottom lines for myself. For example, I will not engage in any kind of relationship with another woman until I have concluded my marriage.

In other words, I am working on me and the kids first and setting the marriage issue (mostly) on the backburner. As of today I really don't want it but the logistics of a separation are more than I could handle at this time. And she is showing some improvements in the holistic sense. Better to bear things out and make a decision at a later time I think.

With some modifications (some free time to myself, ability to visit my family) I can bear this situation for a while. But it will not make me happy in the long run. If she cannot evolve into a true partner, I will need to find another.

What's your time / tolerance ratio like? You said your patience is wearing thin - any particular events recently that brought you to start this thread?

Sending you strength,
RolandOfEld

PS - I think there are precious few of us here who have things "figured out". I'm in almost weekly flux.

[isilme]

Will try to write more tomorrow, minor revision to Roland’s comments.  It IS real love, it’s just held back so much by that broken leg, all they can focus on is their own pain... .our broken back doesn’t register, or if it does, it’s for a while before their next stubbed toe distracts.

I think those of us sticking with it for years, decades, ‘get’ where your c9ming from, and cycle back there time to time. 

[RolandOfEld]

Hi sotiredofthis, echoing Isilme's comment about "real love". I allowed my objective suggestions to be too colored by personal feelings at this moment. Everyone's situation is different. A BPD person is not incapable of "real love". It is just how I feel right now and pertains to my own marriage.

~ROE

[isilme]

Roland, wasn't trying to be rude, hope it didn't' read that way.

I got my feelings hurt over something pretty silly, he didn't bring me dinner last night, but it's just a snapshot of how unequal our separate efforts feel.  It's not a contest, but I kinda do everything that can't fail, and then have to let him flounder on things that won't get us booted onto the street if he won't follow through.  Things that for the most part only affect him.  Everything else, I take care of, and it makes me tired, and it makes me sad he can't be bothered to think I might have been hungry, how about a quick text to ask?  Why is the responsibility always on me?  Because he has BPD. 

I have to work really hard to remember that he is disabled in how his emotions work, and his emotions control his brain, and what he says and does, and when he is overloaded and can't manage them, he will spew them out at me as the easy target, and expect me to manage them for him. 

I want more joy in my life!

Same.  I think I can state that I am mostly content.  But joy is limited and even if I feel it, his mood may differ and my separate emotions can be seen as invalidation, causing my joy to fade as he tries to pick a fight to force me to feel as miserable as he does. 

a spouse who can express emotions safely and calmly, who can self-regulate, who can contribute financially, who is confident in self and pursuing own growth and self-actualization, who is interested in physical intimacy but able to accept a no if that isn't on my mind, who loves my kids (stepkids for spouse) and can handle sharing me with them, who can handle a difference in body clocks that we have (I am best in bed around ten pm, she is best not out of bed until 10am), who can agree to disagree.

And same.  No kids, but otherwise the same.  And we are both night people, but I work really hard to not be up too late on weeknights and he sees me going to be early as abandonment.  Or even just falling asleep ont eh couch with him.  If I am not conscious, I have abandoned him. 

We can't MAKE them work better.  All we have the power to do is make us feel different about them.  I try really hard for radical acceptance that he has limits, that my 100% comes from a different well than his 100%, so he might only have access to 1 gallon of effort to give, while I have 1000 gallons I expend.  It does not mean he's not trying, in his mind, he is totally trying.  He just has less of a reservoir.  If he was paraplegic, I should not be mad he can't climb mountains with me.  But I'm still going to get tired pushing him up hills. 

Most days I can manage better.  I am tired, trying to avoid the latest cold going around (never work on a campus, college students are germ vectors), stressed about trying to make sure things at home and work are not falling apart.  My resurgent migraines are causing a lot of brain fog.  He's so used to me having everything memorized, ready to spout out, he's upset I am impaired, tired, need rest myself.  I want to think it's caring, but also know part of it is fear I am abandoning him through illness, and can't take care of him. 

It's easy for us to attribute OUR idea of their motives, but we have different mental processes and coping abilities.  Remember they are arrested at a toddler level of coping.  Toddlers say all many of horrible mean things when mad, and it's often out of proportion to the issue at hand.  Yay - BPD does the same thing.  But these people have adult agency and the ability to majorly make a mess of things. 

The best we can do is see how OUR interactions and reactions increase their responses and find ways to revise what WE do to put out the fire instead of making it burn higher.  As the ones who are somewhat more emotionally healthy, we get the added task of exercising that ability to keep drama low.

mantra - it's BPD talking.  It's BPD talking.  Don't respond unless I need to respond.  What good will come of correcting this statement?  Will he learn/is he in a place to learn?  Or is he venting, dysregulating, and anything I say will just spark a fight?  If so, move on, find a way to be busy, keep the drama low.  It's BPD talking.  he's not really mad at ME.  He's mad at (insert here) work, body image, pain, family, perceptions of expectations, holidays, whatever.  It's BPD talking. He just lacks the internal monologue to process it inside, and can't manage it unless he shouts it all at me.  Don't take it personally.  Don't allow him to pick a fight just to vent his spleen and try to ret-con me into a bad guy so he can avoid blame and shame.  It's BPD talking.

[sotiredofthis]

mantra - it's BPD talking.  It's BPD talking.  Don't respond unless I need to respond.  What good will come of correcting this statement?  Will he learn/is he in a place to learn?  Or is he venting, dysregulating, and anything I say will just spark a fight?  If so, move on, find a way to be busy, keep the drama low.  It's BPD talking.  he's not really mad at ME.  He's mad at (insert here) work, body image, pain, family, perceptions of expectations, holidays, whatever.  It's BPD talking. He just lacks the internal monologue to process it inside, and can't manage it unless he shouts it all at me.  Don't take it personally.  Don't allow him to pick a fight just to vent his spleen and try to ret-con me into a bad guy so he can avoid blame and shame.  It's BPD talking.

This is so helpful. I will keep that one at the top of my list: IT'S BPD TALKING.

Thank you all for your comments.
It's nice to feel understood. The analogy of a broken leg is nice but I'm not asking my spouse to carry me, just to be alongside me, as a partner. And that is the hardest part. I keep hoping that this next time it will be different. And it never is. And it's exhausting.

Anyone else have a mantra that helps in the moment?

[isilme]

The analogy of a broken leg is nice but I'm not asking my spouse to carry me, just to be alongside me, as a partner. And that is the hardest part. I keep hoping that this next time it will be different. And it never is. And it's exhausting.

You're not asking them to carry you, true.  But even to walk beside you, having an uninjured leg would be very helpful, and a broken one hindering.  Instead, you are carrying them quite a bit, I'd wager. 

I agree I don't want H to mollycoddle me.  I grew up way too independent, and don't know how to deal with people doing things for me (part of the problem, I know).  I would appreciate a little bit, even just taking responsibility for one chore around the house consistently, without being asked.  This is not "housewife nagging".  This is - Isilme does every single chore that gets done works full time and is a bit tired and run down, can you help take ONE item forever off of her?  But, I get mixed responses when I bother to try to ask, so I mostly just assume I want it done, I'm doing it. 

How are things not different each "next time"?

[RolandOfEld]

Isilme that mantra is so powerful. This topic is raising a lot of important questions for me. For example, if I accept the viewpoint that my spouse is an emotional toddler, is it still a marriage for me? Or a caretaking relationship more similar to my children?

It's helpful to accept that I can't fully rely on her and this wont change. But it fundamentally alters the dynamic.

I acknowledge that BPD people might give love in their own unique way. My wife made her first attempt to empathize with my emotions recently, which must have been huge for her.

Which goes back to the question of "is this all there is for me"?

Sotiredofthis sorry to hijack the thread with my own issues. Does the above give you some more context to work with?

I think the question maybe becomes less about them becoming accountable for their behavior and more about what WE need to live effective lives. Note I use the word "effective", not happy, since it is impossible to be happy all the time.

By effective I mean able to produce for others and care for ourselves without being impaired. Right now my self-care is seriously impaired.

~ROE

[isilme]

I accept the viewpoint that my spouse is an emotional toddler, is it still a marriage for me? Or a caretaking relationship more similar to my children?

Coping skills under duress that revert back to similar actions to a toddler in an adult body does not mean a toddler for real - I use the analogy to explain how we can't allow slamming doors and shouts of "I hate you," to be internalized.  When a  small child gets angry and shouts "I hate you forever" for trying to give them something they need, a bath, a nap, we don't REALLY think they hate us.  We know they are tired.  Cranky.  Need a nap. That they lack skills to communicate better, and that every offense in the world hurts like the first bad feeling ever.

But when a BPD spouse says it, we do.  Knowing that part of BPD seems to be tied to arrested development in early childhood, however it happened, and coming to learn that our spouse who can be so wonderful at times will revert back to this kind of coping mechanism when feelings push them too hard, is meant to help protect US from hurt.  I am trying to use empathy to understand the depth of H's anger and see how his lack of skills is what's causing the most distress for both of us.  The toddler analogy is not meant to take away from the fact he is an adult, but to reflect one way to help temper the amount of hurt taken from the crazy outbursts and hurtful things said.

My H is an adult.  He can manage himself in many aspects of life as an adult, maybe not well, but if I were gone, he'd muddle along.  He is good at his job, he can get along for the most part with friends... .he just can't carry me, or at least not very far at all (he DOES try at times) and has to work really hard to walk beside me.  Really Hard.  And I have to be willing, going into this with my eyes wide open, knowing his limits, to let him lean on me if needed. 

All our spouses/SOs have limits to what they can do.  So do we.  We need to find ways to accept what we take on to balance their lack without overwhelming us.  This is my challenge.  I grew up a caretaker and so fall into the very easily.  My task is backing off, not enabling when I catch myself and finding ways to let H fail or succeed, instead being a helicopter wife. 

[sotiredofthis]

Thanks for all of this. It really helps to talk it out with people who understand and who aren't just advising you to leave and cut your losses.

How do I respond with validating to something like this? "You and T just think I'm the broken one. You are fine but I'm more broken."

We started couples therapy in January and weren't making much progress because my wife would continually get triggered into anger and shame. T offered to focus on my wife and getting her stabilized. They started doing twice weekly sessions. Nightly check-ins. It felt like a recipe for disaster from my perspective because if the therapist wouldn't respond quickly enough, at night or on weekend, it was big drama at home and feelings of abandonment and rejection. Fast forward to July and my wife was nearly suicidal, not wanting to live and T pushed for more intensive treatment. Wife got into partial hospitalization, then IOP. She just ended IOP last Friday a week ago. Through the time in PHP and IOP, she was still seeing couples T individually. Our couples therapy was on hold until my wife could decide to live.

A theme for my wife is that I don't meet her needs emotionally, that I'm cold, insensitive and uncaring. Through this intense therapy she ended up having transference for the Time, expressing her interest to T and processing this in therapy. I knew nothing until she sent T an email  (which I have not read) to which the therapist responded, you have to loop your wife into this, we can't continue until she knows. T was very clear that she does not reciprocate any of these feelings and feels this is an excellent opportunity for healing old wounds if handled well.

I'm sure you can imagine how this felt to my wife and it played into old stories of abandonment and rejection and she was a hot mess. I was looped in a week ago and it's been a rough week.

The diagnosis BPD has not been mentioned in our therapy but I'm guessing that by now the T might have that in mind.

I feel like I'm trying to hold a baby with burns on 90% of her body and every time I try to console or comfort I end up hurting her. It's tempting to give up but when you see the level of pain you'd have to be heartless to ignore it.

Thanks for listening. Writing this out is therapeutic. I'm open to any tips on how to handle someone who is at such a level of pain they are constantly hoping they don't wake up because it's so painful. In our couples session on Thursday, she actually asked me and T for permission to die. Neither one of us gave it but now I'm consistently checking on her safety.

I have a very important business trip this week and she'll be home alone with our cats. I don't want to cancel my trip but it feels risky.

Thanks again for listening. It's so nice to have support.

[RolandOfEld]

How do I respond with validating to something like this? "You and T just think I'm the broken one. You are fine but I'm more broken."

Hi stot, when I first got into couples therapy with my wife it was following a one on one session I had with the therapist where I explained all the BPD stuff in detail and she agreed to my views that there was mental illness at work. I thought from there it was going to be something like a drug intervention where the T tells her she's sick and we talk about how to support her. But she kept treating us as equals and focused on the problems, and when those discussions ran to my wife's disordered behavior, she would address it, just as she would address my own mistakes in the relationship.

I think this is a better way and this is what your T is trying to do. So I suggest even if your counselor diagnoses her, try to keep labels out of the conversation and focus on problems and behaviors.

Regarding the biz trip, I had the same issue recently, except it was fear over the kids instead of our cats. In the end, I opened up to my director about what was happening at home and asked them to put aside expectations of sending be abroad for the time being. It was a big disappointment to me but a huge relief at the same time. I knew even if my wife was OK with at first that anything could happen before then, and how could I explain to my bosses how my passport had suddenly been cut to shreds the night before leaving?

Are you afraid your wife would neglect the cats? Is there someone else you could leave them with if she is not keen on doing this?

@Isilme thank you for centering me a little on this issue. I think you define it very well. They are not toddlers, but often behave like one under duress. But we react differently since the behavior is coming out of an adult. If a toddler told us to move out right now, we wouldn't, but if facing an adult we might (I did).

~ROE

[an0ught]

Validation is listening. Hearing that she feels totally broken is painful   but without you truely hearing and acknowleding it she will tell herself it over and over without stopping now imagine how painful that is 8-(. Even with you acknowleging it there will be gor a while only short and limited reprieves. If she cries - good as she is not bottling up. She has now short spurts where she is able to do limited processing. Be there for her but give her also space. This takes time.

[Coastered]

I keep hoping that this next time it will be different. And it never is. And it's exhausting.

I will not sugercoat it, nothing about this disorder should be sugarcoated.  it will not be different, ever, unless that person gets help.  All you can do is dodge bullets on a daily, or weekly basis.  All you can do is avoid anything that might trigger her own self doubts.  You have to understand that she does not think like you do.  She does not act like you do.  People with BPD act out of feelings not out of logic.  She could feel down and depressed and think that she feels like this because you do not make her happy.  Do you see what I mean here?  She might also FEEL like a failure and then could project that onto you.  YOU become a failure because she feels like one.

They have feelings and they transform them into facts.  We have facts and transform them into feelings.  Do you see the difference.  Look up emotional reasoning if you want a proper definition of how their minds sometimes work.

Emotional reasoning is a cognitive process by which a person concludes that his/her emotional reaction proves something is true, regardless of the observed evidence. For example, even though a spouse has shown only devotion, a person using emotional reasoning might conclude, "I know my spouse is being unfaithful because I feel jealous." causing the end of a relationship in a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I sadly lost my partner due to this, I failed her and I will do anything in my power to stop it happening to anyone else.  BPD afflicted individuals actually do not MEAN what they say, regardless of what I read about them they are not animals, or monsters they care deeply, too deeply sometimes and they live in a quagmire of pain daily that I could never even begin to understand.  They are like children emotionally trapped in an adults body and you need to deal with this.

Try buying the books, WALKING ON EGGSHELLS, HIGH-CONFLICT RELATIONSHIPS and I HATE YOU, PLEASE DONT LEAVE ME.  They may help.

Wishing you well.  I hope I helped.

[RolandOfEld]

They have feelings and they transform them into facts.  We have facts and transform them into feelings.  

Just wanted to second this great point from Coastered. I think one of the most common questions I see new (and old) members posting on this board is "Why... .?" "Why would they... ." "How could they... ."

For a little context, think of how you feel when you are extremely angry, or why you got extremely angry in the first place. What does it make you want to do to protect yourself. I can sometimes say not to good things when I get angry at S5, because from my end it looks like he is doing something to purposely bother me when of course there is a different reason behind it. But my reaction is anger because to me it looks like a slight. BPD can make the most normal, non-hostile behaviors seem like a major slight.

~ROE