What is up with the 5-6 month mark?

[1stTimer]

I seem to notice a pattern here of xBPDs reaching out right about the 5-6 month mark. I noticed this early on. My BPD 'reached out' at almost exactly 5 months, and I've seen more than a couple threads here where March/April flameouts are suddenly reaching out again. Is this a coincidence or is there some correlation for that timeframe that has been noticed before? Perhaps it is a sign of how long most pwBPD can sustain/idealize the new person? I know pwBPD are not monolithic but just from my recent survey of threads here and from my few original months here that 6-month timeframe seems pretty darn consistent... .

[MeandThee29]

Perhaps. Mine announced at that point that he would never live in this area again and that the family house had to be sold.

Everything since has related to that because he wants us to move where he is or pick a new place to "start over." Not going to happen, but he keeps trying every few months.

[Insom]

Hi, 1stTimer.  I hear you've noticed a reaching-out pattern that makes sense to you and can relate very much with how uncanny it can feel to discover patterns in other people's stories that have matched my own intense and singular-seeming experiences.

What happened when your partner "reached out?"  How did you respond?
 

[1stTimer]

Hi, 1stTimer.  I hear you've noticed a reaching-out pattern that makes sense to you and can relate very much with how uncanny it can feel to discover patterns in other people's stories that have matched my own intense and singular-seeming experiences.

What happened when your partner "reached out?"  How did you respond?
 

Hi Insom, I had actually vaguely noticed it before and in fact not only because of that but just some vague intuition 'knew' she'd reach out somehow in late September or early October. I don't know if 'reached out' is the right term but given the prior history it seemed like it. Went like so: I started dating a great girl and did something I don't normally do; I posted a pic of us on Facebook from this great outing with all her friends they sent me a copy of. 5 hours later I got a text that she was planning on visiting the wine bar I frequent (where we met but she rarely goes) for the first time in months and if I was there we could catch up but she'd understand if I didn't want to talk to her. I replied feel free to go or not I or talk or not I am ok one way or the other. She had some reply which I ignored.

The thing that struck me about it was this;

1) There is no need to go to my wine bar. It isn't some big tourist attraction, she has one of her own much closer to her that she is a regular at so knows people and the bartenders unlike mine. Mine seats 10-15 people, she knows pretty much only me, it is out of her way. So she made it seem like the visit had nothing to do with me but I was welcome to talk to her (or not).

2) not one time since 'discard' did she reach out to me, and any of the 2-3 times i reached out to her (always quite nicely, wo accusation or acrimony and in fact providing closure/comfort/caring) her replies were so clinical and crafted and you'd never know from them there was any sort of relationship let alone her horrid end-behavior. For instance in reply to my first reach out when I was utterly confused at what happened yet wrote her a really nice letter about her friendship had meant and wished her luck she simply said "thank you for the nice note. I hope you are well". Yet all of a sudden she acknowledges that something did go down and likely something she f*d up with her "I'll understand if you don't want to talk to me".

She hasn't reached back out since (almost 3 weeks) so either she got the message when i didn't reply back,  or she achieved her purpose and pinged herself back on to my radar (like I'd leave a lady like the one I'm with for a messed up little girl like her), or it might even be possible that she had some strange need to go to the wine bar sans me and realized 'oh man that guy is ther I don't want a scene when I walk in'.

It's as hard to figure out as all of her behavoir before, during, and after, just far less interesting and matters very little. I mostly found it interesting that a) she reached out right about when I figured 2) there is more than one thread here with people who were 'discarded' in April or May being contacted again now and 3) she reached out right after my FB post. The odds of that being a coincidence seem slim indeed.

Curious what patterns you have noticed?

[Skip]

Curious what patterns you have noticed?

I don't think there is a substantial pattern and if you truly want to understand what happened it makes more sense to look at the specifics of your case than a "feeling" about patterns of various members here.

[1stTimer]

I don't think there is a substantial pattern and if you truly want to understand what happened it makes more sense to look at the specifics of your case than a "feeling" about patterns of various members here.

"can relate very much with how uncanny it can feel to discover patterns in other people's stories that have matched my own intense and singular-seeming experiences."

Isn't that why we are here? Because we are all dealing with something that seemed "intense and singular-seeming" but there are patterns that are similar through all of them? I'm always struck by how I could have written some/many of the stories I read here almost to the letter. To me that has been one of the better ways to make sense of things that happened and not blame myself and/or find out ways to understand, deal with things, move on.

[Skip]

Isn't that why we are here? Because we are all dealing with something that seemed "intense and singular-seeming" but there are patterns that are similar through all of them? I'm always struck by how I could have written some/many of the stories I read here almost to the letter.

Not really, 1T. My ex was a red head. I've noticed other members dated redheads. With 110,000 members, hundreds could be redheads and this statistical cluster doesn't mean anything (2% of population is redhead).  

The DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) is a study of relevant statistical clusters. There are other statistical cluster of what I'd call, bad things that happen when relationships breakdown. Gottman's work comes to mind and it has a lot to do with post relationship contact.

Is there a statistical pattern of post relationship contact at 150-180 days? We generally tell members not to consider the relationship broken up until 90-120 days as its common to recycle in that time period. This is not a BPD thing.

To me that has been one of the better ways to make sense of things that happened and not blame myself and/or find out ways to understand, deal with things, move on.

Our goal here as a community is to help each other better understand human nature, pathology, and to deconstruct what happened in a relationship so that we better understand how to have better relationships in the future.

There are certainly things that happened in your relationship, on both sides, that you could learn a great deal from.

As for the narrative below - it might be a much simpler narrative. This is a women cautiously making an overture to talk. It's a pretty common style when things end badly. I don't think its an admission or acknowledgement that she did wrong, as much as its an acknowledgement that you might have hard feelings or have moved on... .both of which are true.

If you want to know what is going on, you probably needed to sit with her in a non threatening and no-expectations friendly style and just talk lightly and listen. I don't think anything that happened in my relationship will shed light on what "your ex" is thinking right now.

The thing that struck me about it was this;

1) There is no need to go to my wine bar. It isn't some big tourist attraction, she has one of her own much closer to her that she is a regular at so knows people and the bartenders unlike mine. Mine seats 10-15 people, she knows pretty much only me, it is out of her way. So she made it seem like the visit had nothing to do with me but I was welcome to talk to her (or not).

2) not one time since 'discard' did she reach out to me, and any of the 2-3 times i reached out to her (always quite nicely, wo accusation or acrimony and in fact providing closure/comfort/caring) her replies were so clinical and crafted and you'd never know from them there was any sort of relationship let alone her horrid end-behavior. For instance in reply to my first reach out when I was utterly confused at what happened yet wrote her a really nice letter about her friendship had meant and wished her luck she simply said "thank you for the nice note. I hope you are well". Yet all of a sudden she acknowledges that something did go down and likely something she f*d up with her "I'll understand if you don't want to talk to me".

She hasn't reached back out since (almost 3 weeks) so either she got the message when i didn't reply back,  or she achieved her purpose and pinged herself back on to my radar (like I'd leave a lady like the one I'm with for a messed up little girl like her), or it might even be possible that she had some strange need to go to the wine bar sans me and realized 'oh man that guy is ther I don't want a scene when I walk in'.

It's as hard to figure out as all of her behavoir before, during, and after, just far less interesting and matters very little. I mostly found it interesting that a) she reached out right about when I figured 2) there is more than one thread here with people who were 'discarded' in April or May being contacted again now and 3) she reached out right after my FB post. The odds of that being a coincidence seem slim indeed.

[1stTimer]

Not really, 1T. My ex was a red head. I've noticed other members dated redheads. With 110,000 members, hundreds could be redheads and this statistical cluster doesn't mean anything (2% of population is redhead).  

The DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) is a study of relevant statistical clusters. There are other statistical cluster of what I'd call, bad things that happen when relationships breakdown. Gottman's work comes to mind and it has a lot to do with post relationship contact.

Is there a statistical pattern of post relationship contact at 150-180 days? We generally tell members not to consider the relationship broken up until 90-120 days as its common to recycle in that time period. This is not a BPD thing.

Our goal here as a community is to help each other better understand human nature, pathology, and to deconstruct what happened in a relationship so that we better understand how to have better relationships in the future.

There are certainly things that happened in your relationship, on both sides, that you could learn a great deal from.

As for the narrative below - it might be a much simpler. This is a women cautiously making an overture to talk. It's a pretty common style. I don't think its an admission or acknowledgement that she did wrong, as much as its an acknowledgement that you might have hard feelings or have moved on... .both of which are true.

Ok well maybe we are here for different reasons then. I don't pop on boards to discuss relationships that went wrong, I've had my share and learned (and not learned) from them. I came here because of the pathological behavior of the person I dated and the relationship I found myself in.  I could not understand her behavior, I could not understand my attachment to it. It turned out her behavior, which was pretty class Overvalue/Devalue/Discard was a pattern many people here experienced, and my inability to let go, process, understand, or get my head around the unreality of it was as well. None of this was about my trying to have better relationships in the future, I have no 'pattern' of dating women like this it is the first time I ever experienced this.

Many of the stories here repeated the same patterns; such as a woman (generally) pushing hard for a future even down to asking a man to relocate for her, and then suddenly the next day wants nothing to do with him and cuts all contact like he never existed.  I could name many others that were almost identical to my situation but they are indeed patterns. Is 150-180 days? No idea. It just seemed to me to be a range of when people seemed to pop in again. But again the patterns of behavior by the pwBPD seems pretty consistent. So it isn't about learning how to deal with readheads.

I've learned what I did 'wrong' to allow myself to even enter such a relationship and/or to even hold on to it. And took steps to get myself back on track to where and who I was since I never chose women or relationships like that nor, as importantly, did they choose or pursue me. I'm pretty sure that in my normal healthy state she would not have found me appealing and vice-versa.

As to the narrative; whatever it is an admission of it is an admission Skip finally that SOMETHING happened. Every prior communication completely ignored that which is what had me so flumoxxed. "Thank you for the nice note". "I hope you are well". You would not know, reading any of her replies, we ever had a relationship, let alone anything went wrong, let alone I might have hard feelings or that there  would be anything to move on from. So yes this was the first time in 5 months there was the slightest indication of that. And again, who knows: maybe it was a tentative overture to talk and maybe it was sparked by the FB picture of me happy with a pretty lady. Maybe she couldn't care less about talking and just had some hankering to go to the wine bar and realized she needed to give me a heads up to a) not discuss anything deep ("casual catch up") or b) to not talk to her. I don't know. I don't so much care now. For me I'll just be happy with the 'if you don't want to talk to me I'll understand" as the slightest bit of admission something existed which was driving me insane before; the negation.

[1stTimer]

If you want to know what is going on, you probably needed to sit with her in a non threatening and no-expectations friendly style and just talk lightly and listen. I don't think anything that happened in my relationship will shed light on what "your ex" is thinking right now.

That part I totally get; each relationship is ultimately different and needs to be treated as such. But certainly understanding, after not having a likely pwBPD relationship, the overall dynamic helps to deal with the pretty surreal aspect of it. Questioning reality while trying to make sense of a failed/failing relationship makes it infinitely harder. For me that was 99% of it. I just could not get my head around it. So finding out about that fairly established dynamic (overvalue/devalue/discard) was important, especially the discard as I've never experienced anything remotely like it before and it is frankly a terrifying and disorienting thing if you have not.

I don't really want to know what is going on (why she contacted me) or what went on (why she pushed, why she ran, why she avoided). I don't feel particularly friendly to her, I don't feel particularly animosity towards her, I don't feel affection, residual or otherwise, I don't feel lust, I don't feel curiosity, I don't feel disgust. I'd probably sit across from her astonished at the amount of energy I expended on her. In the end I guess I expended it on me to learn some important lessons and to find a way to get some forward motion in my life again.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi 1stT-
I think that yes, many good people here do notice similar general behaviors of their pwBPD.  I’ve seen people state where others’ stories and pain so closely echo their own.  These relationships aren’t your run of the mill “we don’t seem to be getting along let’s discuss this” sort of thing.  Our partners seem to lack accountability and many of us are left beaten down, lost and numb.  Recovery and healing takes a lot of time and work.

Some people may come silently to visit these boards just to sit with company in the dark. 

Not certain if there’s a definitive pattern of cycling back in 5-6 months (or less) but if the relationship pattern is to recycle or resume contact, it will likely happen.  Mine did (and may still happen) because I allowed that.  The text and email contact never truly ceased because there was no blocking of any type (except he “unfriended” me years ago after a first fight and I never allowed him to friend me again on Facebook).  He and I are both minimal social media users.

If I look back at my long ago dating history, pre-marriage, to the 1980’s, when relationships would end old BF’s would call me months and years after the end.  They’d find me cross-Country.  No idea why.  There was only one who mattered, and he waited 26 years for his answer.  Sorry for this aside, it’s been a tough week.

I believe you answered your own question in your last statement, astonished at the amount of energy you spent on her.  That’s okay... .it’s good.  As you stated, that energy brought important lessons to you and moved you to the lovely and important path you walk today.  1stT, if that is what it took to pull yourself out of that “whirlpool” that was formerly your life, then that is what it took!

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Cromwell]

Hi 1st Timer, I continually noticed the 6 month thing as well but maybe part of that is conciously looking for it when you read posts, and overlooking the ones that are of different time frames.

5 to 7 months, it can make sense that a realtionship could fall apart after a period of idolisation that starts to wear off, some attempt to patch it up fails, and then the partners break away when it cant continue on.

learning lesson; take time to fully get to know someone before going emotionally "all in". then it doesnt matter about time spans, can move on easier.

[MeandThee29]

I just remembered that the counsellor I was seeing a year ago commented that the 5-6 months of separation in a long-term relationship are the most critical. When she said that, we had only been separated for six weeks, and he was talking about finding a counsellor. I was more optimistic then.

Even without a personality disorder, a couple will grow even further apart at the 5-6 month point if there is no significant progress, and it's much harder to turn around. And the consensus is of course that if the couple are not living in the same area and productively working on the issues, time and distance will not work in their favor.

[1stTimer]

Hi 1stT-
I think that yes, many good people here do notice similar general behaviors of their pwBPD.  I’ve seen people state where others’ stories and pain so closely echo their own.  These relationships aren’t your run of the mill “we don’t seem to be getting along let’s discuss this” sort of thing.  Our partners seem to lack accountability and many of us are left beaten down, lost and numb.  Recovery and healing takes a lot of time and work.

Agreed Gems, and I think in a lot of cases it is worse than just lack of accountability; it is lack of acknowledging reality or that anything ever existed.  Cuss me out, blame me, explain to me, beg me, scold me, belittle me even. But pretending I/we/it never existed or happened?  There is nothing to recover from then so you cannot recover. That is what I struggled with.

If I look back at my long ago dating history, pre-marriage, to the 1980’s, when relationships would end old BF’s would call me months and years after the end.  They’d find me cross-Country.  No idea why.  There was only one who mattered, and he waited 26 years for his answer.

I've reached out 2-3 times to a woman from going on (man!) 16 years. Why? Loved her and never experienced anything like it before or since. Also her friends engineered a smear campaign she bought into and, given how special our connection was, I figured one day with space she'd figure it out for what it was and remember me for who I was. Not to resurrect but simply because those connections happen so rarely. I'm just saying there are many reasons to reach out, lonliness, closure, but sometimes someone just makes the kind of difference in your life that transcends years. Sounds like you did

Sorry for this aside, it’s been a tough week

.
I know, I'm getting that. I'm sorry and I hope it is getting better bit by bit.

I believe you answered your own question in your last statement, astonished at the amount of energy you spent on her.  That’s okay... .it’s good.  As you stated, that energy brought important lessons to you and moved you to the lovely and important path you walk today.  1stT, if that is what it took to pull yourself out of that “whirlpool” that was formerly your life, then that is what it took!

I think in fact SHE was the whirlpool. Since I'm loving this metaphor so much  I'd say she got between me and shore and redirected me to a better one. Well. I mean fighting through it and out of it left me so exhausted I realized shore was a good place and one can swim for the best shore literally forever.

I do think the 5-6 months makes sense for pwBPD myself. Since they seem to have someone else lined up to take the pain out of their lives before they move on and have such a hard time actually connecting it makes sense to me. They don't actually deal with the loss/pain like "we" do. We're left holding air and they are making love to and being in love with someone else (or so they think). By the time we sort it all out in our minds and hearts their latest idealization is just about crashing and burning. And now they have to deal with their loss. It is one reason I always figured Sept/Oct would be the reach out for her; I'd figure it out as I did. She never dealt with it and was far more vested for far longer than I in "us" and whatever happened, whether "Dom" guy back in the picture or not, she'd have to deal with it.  All that 'will you stay in NYC and buy a place for us" and the "everyone is going to want to meet you you'll be my first real bf in ten years" and the kind size bed and future bombing may have been coming in part from immaturity or desperation or hoping but it still had a lot to do with me and for many months. Did I "lose it" when I lost everything she put on the table I hadn't thought about for years that last night together? Yes. But I just bought into it one night. How hard would it be ripping it away from yourself after a/the person you wanted agreed to it all.Whether you got scared, saw the "warts" and all, some ex returned to your life. You still need to deal with that all at some point right?

I'm actually protecting my own self here somewhat with my Chinese girlfriend; she leaves in 4 weeks for at least 6 months, maybe far longer. If I pushed her away now out of fear of losing her and just jumped into some other relationship instead, how long would it be before I'd simply have to deal with it? I don't think you get to escape paying the piper, BPD or not. A heart is a heart.

[1stTimer]

I think in fact SHE was the whirlpool. Since I'm loving this metaphor so much  I'd say she got between me and shore and redirected me to a better one. Well. I mean fighting through it and out of it left me so exhausted I realized shore was a good place and one can swim for the best shore literally forever.

Just to clarify this, since it was an important lesson for me and therefore perhaps for someone else (independent of BPD, relationships, etc.) is that one can spend so much time trying for the perfect life/career/relationship/outcome that they forget a good one is not only acceptable but often more than many people reach and, if it is in reach to swim for that and forget about Eden. Not sure how I got a metaphor that mixed Eden and whirlpools but I digress.  So my point was that this take-away from this insane incident in my life was to stop  around trying for The Perfect Life, re-orient myself and swim for the much closer sure called A Good Life. I guess sometimes getting disoriented in necessary to reorient one's self.

[Ironyman]

Exact same here! Hero for 3 months, detaching for the past two months and now friends with benefits as she doesn’t want a relationship... we have been together for three years this week s was Anniversary and I spent it alone ...  . Hard

[once removed]

my ex was lining up a new relationship before we broke up. i suspect that there was more than one candidate, but when we broke up, she was full steam ahead with a particular guy. i didnt know any of this until after we broke up, but there were signs in hindsight. it was a big shock to my system. i suspect that she cheated a few times, too.

pretty common story around here, right?

what if i told you that its a pretty common story in general - that most of it may not have much to do with BPD specifically, but emotionally immature coping mechanisms and relationships in general - that there are reasons behind why relationships end that way, and that learning those reasons, to the extent they might have to do with BPD, to the extent that they happen in general, and the extent to why they happened in my relationship was a lot more helpful for me in my healing and in future relationships than realizing that someone else with BPD traits did something similar?

the reality for me was a lot deeper than "pwBPD do this stuff". my go to coping mechanism in the relationship was to withdraw. after slowly breaking down over irreconcilable differences that let resentment and distance fester, our relationship had been dead for those last few months, and i didnt even care to notice. people warned me when it was happening. people, gently, tried to explain that the fact that she began to look elsewhere was, while not an emotionally mature coping mechanism (any more than my withdrawing or either of our inability to do the hard thing and end the relationship), also not surprising - not anywhere near as surprising as i made it out to be. and why was i left hurting? well, the person thats dumped usually is, and the person doing the dumping has usually, to a large extent, grieved the relationship.

We're left holding air and they are making love to and being in love with someone else (or so they think). By the time we sort it all out in our minds and hearts their latest idealization is just about crashing and burning.

members here cope with the loss of the relationship by finding a new one pretty commonly. youve mentioned how your new relationship is helping you to get over your last. ive idealized new partners at the expense of former partners ("this girl is great. what did i see in my ex?"). when someone with BPD traits does it, it is, by and large, for the same reasons you or i do.

a lot happens in the first 2-3 month mark of a relationship. a lot happens at the 1-2 year mark of a relationship. and a lot can happen with post breakup contact at 2-3 months, or 5-6 months. there are a lot of factors as to why your relationship played out the way it did, 1stTimer. there are reasons behind these things. if you want to understand, detach, heal, i encourage you to dig deeper.

[1stTimer]

once removed, I'd have to disagree about the similarity between non and BPD 'other partners'. Clearly there is a pattern with BPD of pursuing multiple partners simultaneously and having replacements set up and ready to go prior whilst keeping the main relationship going ("i hate you don't leave me"). It isn't really analagous to why nons move on or seek another relationship after.

As a for instance; I did not say my new relationship helped me get over my last or that I idealized her at the expense of my """ex""". I had no desire to be with or see anyone else as I processed what happened and did not meet her until I'd moved to a good place. I didn't over-ride my feelings or process by burying myself in another, nor did I do a comparison to expel her. I was simply back in a good spot and attracted the kind of woman I always have before. I noticed the difference. But I haven't idealized this other woman. I'm happy I'm back in a spot where not only would I notice her but attract her and keep her.

This is vastly different then having multiple men lined up while enticing me to commit myself to a relationship, or idealizing another man the moment I was discarded. There is no corrallary between that and what I did.

Ultimately the 5-6 month this is intellectual curiosity, a pattern I noticed and nothing else. Detaching and healing required looking into myself, not her or 'BPD'. If BPD IS characterized by recycling in 5-6 months does it matter to me? If she did have other men lined up and gaslighted me does it matter? If she didn't think about me for 5-6 months until this purported other relationship exploded does it matter? If she cried every day about me does it matter? If she was blase about my reach-outs but died inside does it matter or if she really couldn't have cared less when I did does it matter? When she reached out recently, does it matter if it was because she saw me with a new girl and got jealous or she just wanted to go to my bar and not risn a confrontation? Does the fact she hasnt reached out in 3 weeks since matter whether it is because I ignored her or it was just a passing fancy and I no longer exist on her radar? SHE doesn't matter. BPD doesn't matter. The patterns of BPD don't matter.

Delving deeper for me is understanding ME. Whether I met a BPD girl or not. WHY did I attract her? WHY did I let her in my life? WHY did her leaving my life make me spin out of control given the ___storms I've dealt with for 10+ years? Those questions matter. How many months pwBPD take to recycle even if I could prove the 5-6 month with statistics does not. Here's a question; when she met me this other guy for some reason took a shining to her (mainly because she came in and was so focused on me). He is a foot taller, an Ironman athelete and a hedge fund manager. At the time I was 30 lbs overweight (I am a BADASS now) and living with and taking care of my mother. She blew him off and only had eyes for me. Now I 'get' I have qualities wome  and she liked but come on; she saw vulnerabilities in me she could exploit. Hadn't dated in years, trying to build a life, etc etc. So I can look at how I got there and how I opened up about that to the wrong person. But does it matter if she is/was BPD or if BPD are attracted to that or if after reeling me and disarading me  I could statistically expect her to reach out in 6 months? Of course not.

All I can do to delve deeper is get me. Choices I made to put myself in the position I was when we met, choices I made to ignore my instincts and why in God's name I cared when it imploded so much. Finding answers here is ultimately not about BPD or pwBPD it is about the choices we make and why and how we move on from them and learn from them. The 5-6 month thins is ultimately a meaningless discussion, I'm sorry I ever brought it up

[Skip]

All I can do to delve deeper is get me.

Looking inward is certainly the most important part of healing and growing.

On the above cited subject... .and in the interest of self-awareness... .are you aware how you categorically shut down conversations/people that don't ascribe to narratives or theories that you propose or believe? Conversely, you are exuberant with those that validate/agree.

Why do I bring this up (and risk triggering you)?

My sense from reading your 300+ posts and 700+ member responses is that this really tight grasp on these narratives and theories directs you in actions and beliefs that cause you a great deal of emotional pain.

One of the greatest benefits of group support is to be exposed to the unemotionally involved perspectives of others and to take those thoughts onboard and give them serious consideration.  Be open to accepting different perspectives - even if they are hard.

I had an unexpected falling out with someone several years ago. We had a good 8 month relationship that just ended, cold. Like anyone would, I tried to explain it to myself (in the emotional state I was in), but I knew I couldn't trust my skills so I solicited help. Some people confronted me with difficult narratives, some validated me, some missed the mark entirely. It was very hard to hear some things... .I certainly didn't want (at the time) to think it was my fault. I missed the mark, initially. More importantly, I accepted that I might be wrong and carried my thoughts as only one viable explanation along with others to think about. I lived in a state of ambiguity while I tried to sort it.

Eventually I accepted an alternative view that had been suggested - but in time realized that, while it was closer, it still missed the mark. It is now years later, and I have a very good idea of what transpired and who I was and when I share that with those who helped me, they think "we" finally got it right.

This is support group and it requires a painful level of vulnerability at times to work well. That is why we keep it anonymous and stay 3 zip codes away from Facebook and Google data collection - we want a safe environment where we can share and express in ways that we can't in real life.

For me, lesson learned. Addressed my side of the "problem" (still working it)... .moved on to have a better love life.

[1stTimer]

On the above cited subject... .and in the interest of self-awareness... .are you aware how you categorically shut down conversations/people that don't ascribe to narratives or theories that you propose or believe? Conversely, you are exuberant with those that validate/agree.

Why do I bring this up (and risk triggering you)?

That is/was never my intent to shut down conversations or people Skip, so clearly I need to find a better way to communicate if that is how I am coming across. I guess I am as 'exuberant' when I disagree as I am when I agree, but certainly not trying to dismiss anyone's insights or invalidate their feedback.

I certainy gave Once_Removed's thoughts on BPD 'other dating' and 'ours' and 'nons' and, from my perspective, reading, experience, did not agree (at least in my case). I gave thought as to whether my dating after getting some space and closure was in fact using someone else to get over her or I idealized in order to do that. I didn't agree when I gave it some thought and was clear that I had not done so and had started dating when I was in a better space and chose and was chosen by someone who was more aligned with the kind of person I'd always chosen in the past vs having chosen someone and idealizing them to move on.

In trying to explain that, it appears that I came across as categorical or intransigent or invalidating and that was not my point. I'll take note of your point and try to find a gentler way to communicate, validate and listen moving forward even if I don't 'agree' and I'll try to take a little more time digesting what I don't agree with. Here and off the board. Thanks!

[Skip]

In trying to explain that, it appears that I came across as categorical or intransigent or invalidating and that was not my point. I'll take note of your point and try to find a gentler way to communicate, validate and listen moving forward even if I don't 'agree' and I'll try to take a little more time digesting what I don't agree with. Here and off the board. Thanks!

Great.

I'm not criticizing your reaction to OR (its a minor example at best). My point is solely about the "digesting part" and how hard (and important) it is to be able to set our narrative completely aside and live in another narrative long enough to understand and evaluate it - and then back out and look at both narratives.

The Buddhists refer to this as the inner critic.

[1stTimer]

Great.

I'm not criticizing your reaction to OR (its a minor example at best). My point is solely about the "digesting part" and how hard (and important) it is to be able to set our narrative completely aside and live in another narrative long enough to understand and evaluate it - and then back out and look at both narratives.

The Buddhists refer to this as the inner critic.

That is pretty smart and seems valuable. So you mean even if I "know" upon reading an alternate narrative that I don't agree with it or even that it is "wrong" (or wrong for me) that if I set that aside and fully consider the other narrative I'd be better served (to myself and my communications with other people). Am I understanding that right? Because without a doubt while I do consider alternative narratives that seem plausible or strike a chord and consider them I do also dismiss ones that I "know" are wrong and perhaps that is where I'm falling short.

[Cromwell]

The issue when examining time span of 6 months is that the best it just establishes a correlation and not a causality.

if I believe there was causality in it, then each time in any relationship, once it gets into month 5, the anxiety would go into full swing.

maybe that in itself could cause the reationship to prematurely end.

nope, i cant justify or attach to much meaning to it, despite it being an interesting observation. Did I feel validated about it? Yes, it was as if id found a repositiory of victims who had simply fallen for some cyclical pheonomena, removing my own behaviours during that time from the equation. Just a fateful desinted relationship with an invisible 6 month clock that I wasnt privvy to.

Or could it be the case, that Id actually seen an assortment of red flags but took no action on them up until the day she cheated on me, which just happened to be circa 6 months in

introspection led me out of the victim mindset - i wasnt powerless to some fate, I could have and had opportunities to avoid it happening had I left earlier - I chose not to. Lessons learned, about myself. I rebelled against most people here whenever it got to the stage of casting aspersions on my noble efforts in the relationship. How can you blame the victim? All I did was everything for this girl, with a pure heart, and it was callously trampled on. It was validating to be supported instead into thinking that some planetary alignment or something to do with her disorder meant that half a year is just part of what being in a BPD relationship is all about.

correlation and validation did not help, despite them being comforting at the time, and maybe I needed that - at - that time. But introspection phase came later and was the start of the true path of detaching, recognising that id made mistakes, could have by my own power, ended the relationship earlier but chose not to.

Iafter what she did, why did I continue for another 2.5 years, on the 6 month cycles in between? Thats where the soul searching needed to take place 1stTimer.

I had to ultimately ask myself the question; would an emotionally strong and secure person have stuck around like I did after the abusive stuff? The answer is a resounding no, in addition to would they have discarded after too many of the "hmm" red flag moments.

to use the flotsam analogy, was I really just flotsam that ebbed along without direction or motility, at the whim of my ex directing the current?

no I was a ship supposed to be in charge of its navigation, went through a most horrendous storm, but believed that the worst was over and it would only be sunny skys again rather than go back to port for repair, debrief and learn what went wrong and find lessons to be learned for future expeditions.

an inebriated captain - intoxicated on love, not sensiblities. I was foolish and inexperienced in that specific uncharted waters.

walk the plank time came eventually and why was it so hard to do? to someone who sabotaged so much of my happiness and direction in life?

so many questions to replace trying to unlock the mystique of the BPD enigma.

[1stTimer]

The issue when examining time span of 6 months is that the best it just establishes a correlation and not a causality.

if I believe there was causality in it, then each time in any relationship, once it gets into month 5, the anxiety would go into full swing.

maybe that in itself could cause the reationship to prematurely end.

Hi Cromwell, just to clarify; my observation wasn't that 'BPD' relationships end in 5 months, it is that they reach out to discarded partners seems to often happen at 5-6 months. In any case I meant it as a casual observation, not a causal one. And it made some sense to me; a person unable to sustain relationships except 'black or white' would start to miss the discarded person for whome they (apparantley) didn't go through the normal detachment process from. Clearly I don't know enough about psychology, relationships, or BPD to make any such causal pronouncement, I just 'noticed' a few threads where xpwBPD were reaching back out (emails, texts, etct) after around 1/2 a year and it made sense to me. Validated of course by mine doing so. I don't attach much importance to the 'observation'

correlation and validation did not help, despite them being comforting at the time, and maybe I needed that - at - that time. But introspection phase came later and was the start of the true path of detaching, recognising that id made mistakes, could have by my own power, ended the relationship earlier but chose not to.

Absolutely that is infinitely more important and helpful.  Why did you/I/we make that choice? To be there, to stay? Have we done it before? Is it a pattern? How do we not do it again? Much more important than 'do BPD recycle after 6 months?'

I had to ultimately ask myself the question; would an emotionally strong and secure person have stuck around like I did after the abusive stuff? The answer is a resounding no, in addition to would they have discarded after too many of the "hmm" red flag moments.

The exact questions and places I came to. I realized as well, not sure if you feel the same, that I in fact attracted someone like her (for the first time in my life) becauseI was not in an emotionally (or financially) strong and secure place. Note that I am not just asking why was I attracted to her but why was she to me?

no I was a ship supposed to be in charge of its navigation, went through a most horrendous storm, but believed that the worst was over and it would only be sunny skys again rather than go back to port for repair, debrief and learn what went wrong and find lessons to be learned for future expeditions.

Well since this metaphor is getting us so far, the ocean floor is littered with the remains of ships of captains who thought the eye of the storm was the end of the storm.  Moral is if you just got out of trouble than take a close look around you and make sure you understand your surrounding clearly before you make any decisions. Know where (who) you are, know what is around you.

so many questions to replace trying to unlock the mystique of the BPD enigma.

But maybe the challenge is not in understanding or unlocking BPD (such as even my 6-month theory). Maybe the basics are fine and then asking yourself what about YOU was susceptible to it and what you can bring into your life to not be so susceptible to it again. Was it the fabled "amazing BPD sex?" (I didn't experience that) and was that lacking in your life before and why? Was it being needed so badly and if so why is that so important to you? Was it the love-bombing and is/was your self-esteem do damaged then that it was more important to be love-bombed than pay attention to red-flags? To me that is all we need to know about BPD; what about the characteristics of their behavior triggered us and why.  The storm is gone, the ship is sunk. Now all you have to do is sit down and figuure out the captiain

[Skip]

Was it the fabled "amazing BPD sex?" (I didn't experience that) and was that lacking in your life before and why? Was it being needed so badly and if so why is that so important to you? Was it the love-bombing and is/was your self-esteem do damaged then that it was more important to be love-bombed than pay attention to red-flags? To me that is all we need to know about BPD; what about the characteristics of their behavior triggered us and why.

This is pretty well documented.

It's our need for adoration. The more we need it, the more value it has to us. Then along comes a highly emotional person who casts aside all the normal fears of vulnerability that most people have and love us unconditionally. Wow!

They work hard to make us feel loved and hope in return, we will make them feel loved.



In the end, this is a victimless crime of two human weaknesses.

It gets messy in time as many of us feel entitled to the unconditional love and feel we have a "one up" position in the relationship (e.g., if I love this girl I'm answering her prayers). It gets messy in time with the partner who exposed great vulnerabilities and grows resentful in the reality of the relationship (e.g., I'm not getting back what I put into this).

Bowen defines emotional immaturity as unrealistic expectations. These are relationships of deep needs (on both sides) and unrealistic expectations of each on the other partner.

The emotional immaturity, plays out further between the partners and they do not cope well when things start to break down and do things that continually make matters worse for each other (e.g., the adored one withdraws love to get the partners attention. The partner feels huge vulnerability and resentment in this and starts to isolate themselves emotionally, protect themselves, and counter-attack the partner).

[Cromwell]

For myself 1st TImer, the infactuation and sex was the intiators, although it wasnt anything that I wasnt at the time unable to get elswhere.

Struck it on point 2; I look back at even the first time we met, and can detect a feeling of "wanting to help her", even though there wasnt much on the surface to suggest that she needed anything - I didnt know her. As time went on, that feeling got even stronger as I got to know her, she slowly put "tests" or demands to see how I would react - I did - and did so as a rescuing friend. Something about helping her just seeped through; she presented herself as not having a true friend in the world, and subtly I recognise now that it was down to the ocassinal "woe is me" statements that came through, when for instance I asked "I like it how you always want to see me, I really enjoy being with you - but im a bit surprised" she told me she didnt have anyone else. Id fallen for sob stories, the BPD helpless waif, and as in your situation - I was vulnerable emotionally at that time and in the process of helping her, was a duality that emerged; distracted me from my own issues as much as it made me feel resourceful and a sense of strength to be helping her.

well that is some introspection that took ALOT of time to get to, despite how clear it is to me now. Why so? I trusted and believed what I wanted to believe, she was great company, great sex and I was adored (albeit in hindsight superficially so). She told me she appreciated me, I was special, no-one else had cared for her like I did - I was one of the very few people she trusts. Then I heard the stories of her troubled past, the dysfunctions of her family; the catalogue of "abusive" ex partners (seemingly all of them), and I felt pity and wanted to show her how she had met a genuine guy who would be there for her - and I did each time.

Now if all of this wasnt some extension of her well rehearsed "woe is me" sympathy card that she plays wherever she goes, garnering the next caretaker each time - because it works.

if she was genuine, it would have been my own image and dream of uniting with someone who had been through so much pain, equating her pain as more than the troubles id been through myself, and being that rock of support. It worked, it not only distracted me from my issues - they evaporated, I felt happy each time, it was I felt, healthy reciprocation, I did my best to make her happy when she felt miserable, in doing so, I was "loved" for it in return.

did I see this as a flaw on my part? No, it "felt" right, I "felt" happy, it "felt" almost as if it was my purpose to be "Cromwell: The protector, the saviour" It swept away my own upsets - after all - I found true love and it was reciprocated, who cared about the past; it wiped away that pain.

Or so it felt that way. hindsight, therapy via heavy process of introspection just told me that these character traits of my own are what got me into this mess; they were ingrained way back and in my own belief based on my studies of development psychology; are very much fixed. I did the same for my parents, and it has became an underlying theme that carried its way through. I shunned relationships that were good, but didnt find anything "to do" ie "nothing to fix/protect/rescue".

even to this day 1stTimer, ive embarked on another career towards "helping others seemingly more in need than I am".

I dont see it as a bad thing, except, for a whole life time - and this is where I got the "BPD gift" of revelation; noble as ive been, is not good enough - ive never been equipped properly to take on others problems, I needed help myself and perhaps it took coming to this board in search of it that became a milestone. To recognise that I am vulnerable, as much as have been, but it wasnt realised enough. Identifiying it has becme change at a logarithmic pace - I can see such rapid changes each day towards having become steadily more resilient, less ready to "save the world",

the only thing I have to watch for is not becoming too polarised towards this reconfiguring of the sense of self; If it comes to a jaded world view where; people like my ex are simply scum and not deserving of being helped - thats just trading one faulty mindset for another, im trying to find balance 1stTimer, but reflecting each day is becoming something that is key to it. I cant change my personality, but I can file away at the parts that have led me into problems.

To reply to your throughts on "why was she attracted to me?" - dont want to sound blunt or succinct but I cant see any point in it. There isnt going to be a clear answer beyond speculation. Was it because I was good looking, had a lot of capital in comparison? Was it because I was such an excellent care-taker emotionally? I could find a strong argument in those and others, but nothing conclusive. heres the best I got to in that;

I was easy to control

leaving her, regardless of how long was my turning point, it was time to break her illussion just as she did mine. I got my own back in the end and do so every day that I will never give her a second of my day, and in time, she will be absent from my thoughts. Thats the aim; she was important to me (in history) - shes not now or ever will be. Crucial decisive move that catalysed detachment. not rooted in happy nostalgia, not romantic, just replace it all with new sanitised beliefs, a reality check and getting to know "me" for a change, however uncomfortable it has been.

im glad you got through this 1stTimer, and i agree with you that it helped to learn about BPD, but once i started to live my own life, that experience opened my eyes; my ex was nothing special, there is a society full of difficult people with subtle variations of the same theme. Radical acceptance is; im not in any way able to fix any of it - and why should I? Was that really to be my purpose and calling in life? If it was ordained as such - I can only think how much of a failure, inept and disappointing I must be for it - noble, but incompetent.

conclusion: There must be a different way.

[1stTimer]

To reply to your throughts on "why was she attracted to me?" - dont want to sound blunt or succinct but I cant see any point in it. There isnt going to be a clear answer beyond speculation. Was it because I was good looking, had a lot of capital in comparison? Was it because I was such an excellent care-taker emotionally? I could find a strong argument in those and others, but nothing conclusive. heres the best I got to in that;

I will reply in more detail to the rest later Cromwell, but I didn't mean a general 'what did she like about me?' in terms of the usual stuff women like. I meant; what about your vulnerabilities did she pick up on that her 'BPD' traits could hang a hat on. In your case clearly part of it was your need to be savior and protector. "Help me Obiwan, you are my only hope" is a pretty powerful message for someone with that need right? I'm more asking about identifying those needs you have that attracted her, why you have them, and how you can fulfill those perhaps in yourself vs through someone else. My girl came to me at a time I had isolated myself, felt unwanted, unwantable and also utterly not able to give a woman what women want (security, etc). She knew I hadn't been in relationship, felt I couldn't be for a long time, etc etc. She made me feel wanted not ony non-the-less but almost because of where I was. She... forgave me?

My point is she needed someone vulnerable. I made a point a few posts back about some other suitor whom she rejected that had what I did not at the time; a lot of money, in great shape, etc etc. She IGNORED him, she blew him off when he came by asking why she would not date him again when I was THERE. I asked her why not just see him again he thinks you are great. She said "I only see you, I only care what YOU think about me". Powerful stuff for a guy who feels invisible and unable to even pursue women due to where he is at no?

So I can say "what did she see in me?" and answer the usual stuff (I'm cute, I'm funny, I'm easy to talk to, I'm nice, I'm gentlemanly, I'm gentle, I listen, I'm a good lay ;) ) but I'm going to say those are NOT why she chose me over Adonis. It was precisely because there was nothing to control with him, no hooks she could put in him to address any deficits or insecurities. I was a mark.

[1stTimer]

This is pretty well documented.

It's our need for adoration. The more we need it, the more value it has to us. Then along comes a highly emotional person who casts aside all the normal fears of vulnerability that most people have and love us unconditionally. Wow!

While I get that is standard BPD, I also think it is not a one-size-fits-all. If we are really here to figure out why we made bad decisions and how to have better relationships than I think that whle that may be a good starting point, it won't answer the question for all of us.  For me, if I had that need for adoration I'd have a pattern of getting in those kinds of relationships. The reason this whole thing slammed me so hard is I never did get inside a relationship like this nor did I ever deal with a woman like this. It spun me around and the fact it bothered me so much did as well.

You've said or alluded to my sense of entitlement with my pwBPD in the past, I never felt I felt that. My anger/pain didn't come from her withdrawing it, it came from the relentless push to have me return/reciprocate/commit and the moment I finally did which was a huge and scary step for me to take at that point in my life it was withdrawn im-mediately. That isn't me feeling 'entitled'. That is me feeling set-up and betrayed and my someone whom, everything else aside, I felt cared about me. Not me the man just me.

I personally hate one-sided relationships, I always have. I hate being the adored one and not adoring back and I utterly despise and reject the concept of chasing someone I adore who doesn't return the affection. What I LIKE is connection.  I resisted the 'love bombing' for over a year as the 'you're so ABC' and the intense desire to be with me didn't do a thing for me (except perhaps concern me). It was as we started to have some (I thought) real connection and affection and I started to put my guard down and believe 'hey maybe this girl isn't crazy and desparate maybe she sees something in US that I just am too guarded to see and if I put my guard down and go with it this connection/affection may just be something real'.

Not discounting what you said about the documentation of classic BPW/Non dynamics but there may also be more to it for each person here. Cromwell talks about needing to be 'the savior' so his need is less to be 'loved' then 'needed'. So maybe his path here is figuring out why and finding it in himself.

Or maybe J Giles just had it all figured out years ago ;)

[Cromwell]

Well 1stTimer, when we first met I wasnt vulnerable in that she was just another addition to a string of casusual sex hook ups I had. Emotionally vulnerable at my base? yes, I was seeking companionship via sex at the expense of making myself emotionally vulnerable for more. I had been going through a hard time. She arrived and presented herself as instant answer, the rapport was surreal, the trust (which ive always been cautious and had issues with) dissipated.

we didnt get together at that point, I saw her for sex, met up and went out with her, but one day out of nowhere she just "vanished", i didnt care too much about it and I got into a relationship.

6 months later (theres your theory). I get a text out of the blue. heres the answer to your quetion; she had been discarded, was emotionally needy (but never told me all these things), and what I feel she had me down from the past as a good option to try, she knew that I really liked her during the "friends" rapport building time. I was gullible/blinded by infactuation and how much I liked her, to believe all her version of events, split up my girlfriend who had been very caring to me, but couldnt generate that level of excitement, and part of it was that she had went missing with no explaaton and i was curious why she was suddenly interested in me. I was just overwhelmed then by the love bombing, told yarns of lies that i was too ready to believe, I never questioned her having any motive to. She made me feel great for those months, why would I want that to change? I never suspected any rational reason for her to want it to be any different.

your right 1stTimer, its not some random target, my ex was attracted to a relationship that felt safe that she wouldnt be abandoned - but extend that to... .one that she could choose to abandon wheneer she felt the urge to. Not very nice is it - empathy and caution inbuilt for her own needs; no regard at all for others. When I pieced that together, I started to care far less - the most selfish, exploitative and non-commital woman who ever existted BUT could present herself as the polar opposite. I was just duped by it all, super seduced, seeking emotional comfort and thinking id trumped it by being handed "love" in the instant-mash ready made form.

"if its too good to be true, it most likely is". Just old wisdom that i never took stock of, so blinded by fools-gold.

[1stTimer]

your right 1stTimer, its not some random target, my ex was attracted to a relationship that felt safe that she wouldnt be abandoned - but extend that to... .one that she could choose to abandon wheneer she felt the urge to. Not very nice is it - empathy and caution inbuilt for her own needs; no regard at all for others. When I pieced that together, I started to care far less - the most selfish, exploitative and non-commital woman who ever existted BUT could present herself as the polar opposite. by fools-gold.

Man Cromwell, that is some good insight, one that never occurred to me.  My 'girl' also spent a long time figuring out my triggers, values, etc. Which I resisted as mentioned. But as she worked those hooks ("lets get together but only if you are not only not seeing anyone you aren't texting anyone or interested in anyone else like myself") you are right, she had the same dynamic as yours did for different reasons; is some guy who is feeling insecure about relationships, is struggling to get on his feet, isn't dating or pursuing anyone and hasn't in many many many months going to abandon her?  "No regard for others" was always a component of this girl that I didn't like from day one and ignored too.  I'm guessing with my self the suddenness of my giving in and fully at that flipped her the hell out (and was probably bad timing).  But your point is well taken and a super insight. Who better for a person with fear of abandonment AND a fear of engulfment; a guy with self-imposed limited options and fear of commitment. Duh. Our work is done here my friend ;)

[Skip]

As I said earlier, try to set your thoughts aside and try to embrace some others - just long enough to understand them - a few days, a week. You might not be understanding what is said here.

While I get that is standard BPD, I also think it is not a one-size-fits-all. If we are really here to figure out why we made bad decisions and how to have better relationships than I think that whle that may be a good starting point, it won't answer the question for all of us.  For me, if I had that need for adoration I'd have a pattern of getting in those kinds of relationships.

There are 700,000 posts in "Detaching" group of boards and if you did a systematic analysis of the posts, you would see that these are the most consistent trends that stand out. The psychology literature talks about it. You even see this on the junk psychology sites (e.g., Shari Schreibers) or the Huffington post.

These relationships (when they become complex and painful) are a coming together of two wounded people.

We could deconstruct how your situation falls into this broad model and even how Cromwell's falls into this. You might want to try it. Not all cases are the same so the details vary - but this model fits your case pretty well.  It might help you see all of this more clearly if you do the deconstruct. I think using a map like this and doing this deconstruction with members here will bring you in closer to understanding that trying to assemble incident trends like how many month before some one was contacted after a breakup.

In your case, you were at one of the lowest prolonged points in your life - business and relationship crashed, living, for years, on a sofa in someones else's house, not even a door or a modicum of privacy. Do you know that you have posted 41 times about how significant having her offer you a drawer in her place was to you. This was a six - ten week relationship that was going to help you find yourself again.

... .the new woman really got me centered again on who I was and what I wanted and clarified what an inane situation I allowed myself to get into in my terror at what my life had become.

In a sense, there may be elements of this with your newest friend.

Think about it.