I broke up with new girlfriend

[1stTimer]

You may be underestimating the significance of being highly reactive and breaking up with her.

It's human nature (common) for someone to first respond to that by trying to make amends... .and then afterward to think about how they feel about it what happened.

Breaking up as a way to be heard or to emote is generally not a good idea. It says, loudly, that either your commitment is shallow or your coping skills are volatile or both.

In any case, you latest response was great. Enough to open the door back up. Not too much so that you feel foolish.

 

I get you on this but again didn't break up to be heard. It made sense at that time (even if it were reactive) since she was leaving in three weeks as it was and the timeframe to connect was pretty much gone and she was not making the effort to make that happen. I could have thought through it deeper and come to the conclusions I did above, however, I did not do it as stomp-my-feet to be heard.  She was clearly distancing herself and making sure we were not alone together. She could have kept our dinner plans even though the friends she invited could not make it, she canceled since the alternative was us alone having a romantic dinner at her place. Just as the time before she changed it to a restaurant, not near her home and said at the end (as nice as it was) "you go your place I go mine".

I'd already tried to address, twice, what if anything was going on and in a highly-supportive way. So it made sense to me at the time; something is going on, she is not telling me and will continue to make sure we are not together despite gushing about how much she wants to be. So all I can do is say I had a great time with you and am glad we had a chance to meet. My choices were a) sitting around hoping she'd contact me for some other arms-length meeting wondering what was going on during it and why we weren't going home together b) wait for her to leave or c) ask yet again and get another "There is nothing wrong between us!" which was clearly a lie. She's an adult woman and I very kindly in fact broke up with her since she would neither let me know what was wrong nor change her behavior which was hurtful and confusing. But make no mistake; my intent was not to "be heard" by breaking up.

That said if I treated a girlfriend (her for say) like crap e.g. blithely and repeatedly canceling, and would not tell them why OR stop and they broke up with me, I doubt I'd see it as them being shallow or lacking coping skills. I'd remember that I treated them shabbily, wouldn't come clean as to why and since they gave me a chance twice to explain or rectify and I did neither they left me.  She might not speak English but she gets what she did and she knows she did it and she knows why.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi 1stT-

This is where my opinion differs from others and I mean no disrespect to anyone.  This is just one scenario- She is one year out of a divorce, that’s pretty fresh.  And no matter who initiated the divorce, there’s pain and sadness associated with that process.  She told you that you were the first man she had been intimate with since her divorce.  That’s likely true.  You were “safe”... .handsome, remarkable, kind, and NOT from her “neighborhood”.  No chance of running into you in her daily life.  Very safe way to dip her toes back into a romantic feel for things. 

Regardless of how you really feel about this, I hope you can only feel good about this.  In her way, language barrier and all, she trusted you.  In my own way, I do know what I’m talking about... .I went through this.  But she cannot explain this to you - and neither can her friends.

So if she cannot be close to you from now on, please don’t blame yourself... .or her.  No one can explain this on her behalf.  And when she’s this fresh off of a divorce, she likely cannot explain it either.  She doesn’t understand it yet.  Nope.  She doesn’t understand her own behavior... .down the road she will.  And maybe then, if her culture doesn’t fill her with shame , she will explain it to you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

Breaking up as a way to be heard or to emote is generally not a good idea. It says, loudly, that either your commitment is shallow or your coping skills are volatile or both.

I guess to we all have our own triggers on what constitutes a shallow commitment. From my perspective, not knowing her all that well, I have a girl (yet another) who early on pushed for commitment, girlfriend, my not being a "player", etc. and who I did just that for and with. Yet increasingly she has made me a low priority, canceled on me for other friends, and expected me to be around when she was ready days later.  Maybe reading this off the bat as not being committed to ME was reactive, but certainly no less than doing so because the other person said *enough* after doing so several times.  You can't keep someone at arm's length either because you are not committed or they are not a priority or you are scared of getting closer and then question their commitment when they bail on you.

[1stTimer]

Hi 1stT-

This is where my opinion differs from others and I mean no disrespect to anyone.  This is just one scenario- She is one year out of a divorce, that’s pretty fresh.  And no matter who initiated the divorce, there’s pain and sadness associated with that process.  She told you that you were the first man she had been intimate with since her divorce.  That’s likely true.  You were “safe”... .handsome, remarkable, kind, and NOT from her “neighborhood”.  No chance of running into you in her daily life.  Very safe way to dip her toes back into a romantic feel for things.  

Regardless of how you really feel about this, I hope you can only feel good about this.  In her way, language barrier and all, she trusted you.  In my own way, I do know what I’m talking about... .I went through this.  But she cannot explain this to you - and neither can her friends.

So if she cannot be close to you from now on, please don’t blame yourself... .or her.  No one can explain this on her behalf.  And when she’s this fresh off of a divorce, she likely cannot explain it either.  She doesn’t understand it yet.  Nope.  She doesn’t understand her own behavior... .down the road she will.  And maybe then, if her culture doesn’t fill her with shame , she will explain it to you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

Hi Gem thanks. I considered that too and in fact have never pressured her for more. I mean other than the fact if she is pressuring me that for right now I am not 'playing around' or sleeping around and that she is my girlfriend than that is what we have for now. I didn't and don't have a problem with her coming to the US, having a fling with me and going home w/o any commitments. Again didn't put pressure on her for anything else. She on the other hand has pushed endlessly for me to come stay with her in Chengdu, even offered to pay for all expenses and take me all over China. Not once on a whim but over and over, even her latest texts (you are so welcome to stay with me in Chengdu!). She had her friends extend an invite to go with her to Lincoln Center when she returns for a play in January and makes it clear she is going to study her (great) a** off in China so she can have no language barriers between us when she returns.

She is the one who has pushed for future. If she decided she just wanted a nice no strings thing then that was here too. But she firebombed the last month together, the one SHE extended for and texted me delighted to have another month to be with me (she said that 3-5 times in one exchange). It was literally right after that that she distanced.  So I'm still in the camp that she or her friends realized a month of time and making love and then leaving was only going to hurt. She could have just let me cook for her and made love to her and had romance and toes in the water w/o fear of my EVER seeing her again. So ... .something happened. She got scared of getting too attached I believe. I could posit there was another guy but I doubt it by the way I as showcased at so many different events with her friends and just by her nature.

Time will telll I guess, I do appreciate the insight.

[1stTimer]

She is one year out of a divorce, that’s pretty fresh.  And no matter who initiated the divorce, there’s pain and sadness associated with that process. 

FYI her divorce, according to her, was highly amicable. Her and her ex in fact are still in business together and talk all the time. She wanted more out of life then he did and she says they are quite happy with the result and remain good friends. I get there is of course still regret, I just mean she is not a grieving or jilted divorcee.

[Gemsforeyes]

You know 1stT, if there’s anything I learned through my relationship with my BPDbf, it’s that many times when I relied on his words I’d figuratively, and sometimes literally fall my knees.  My heart would break a little more as his promises landed on the floor and scattered.  Evaporated.  And I KNEW him... .Only actions mattered.  And so many of those were painful, too.

Ah yes... .sometimes everything I know is wrong.  I still don’t trust myself.

Gems

[Skip]

You can't keep someone at arm's length either because you are not committed or they are not a priority or you are scared of getting closer and then question their commitment when they bail on you.

I think, 1T, when you are courting a women in your age range, things are much more complex then you are understanding. Very often there are mixed signals and since the relationship is new, every event has the ability to significantly shift the thinking of both parties. In general, men pursue through it if they are interested (and that generally means being fun, easy, patient, forgiving, no drama) and women may be more unsure, concerned about vulnerability, wounded... .needing to won over... .

It's important not to put too many expectations on the new person because there is a lot we don't know. The show up with decades of family and relationship complications we haven't a clue about.

My own experience. I met a girl for drinks and she seemed really interested about spending time and getting to know each other. She asked me to call. I texted something later that day - got a happy enthusiastic response. I called her the next day and she said she was busy studying for an exam and that it would be best to talk at the end of the week. I called her on Friday and she didn't answer. I left a simple message about calling her back over the weekend some time.

So what happened next?  I got a very long phone text (very long) about how inconsiderate I was to disturb her when she was studying and that I completely broke her concentration and her ability to pass her test is now in doubt and something about her daughter (I didn't know she has a daughter).  All I did was call and leave a 15 word message.

So what did I do? I didn't take it personally. Yes she was wrong. So what. I could either continue or move on. I mailed her (at work) a picture of a bull in a chinashop with my name on the bull with an exclamation point. She got back to me.

Who knows what is going on in people's minds. Who knows what was going on in you last two girlfriends minds and they ebbed and flowed. It's important to be able to ride the ebbs and flows without acting out. People respect that.

As a general rule, I think the best thing to do is to court until you don't want to court and then exit the picture completely. Take early drama in a relationship of any kind of your plate - don't do it, no matter how justified, it just sours the soup forever. Apoligies after the fact help a little, but they don't erase the drama and the concern that there is more coming.   And if you do lose it, then write if off as a mistake, walk away, and be cooler in the next relationship.

What Gem says is very likely in all or part.

What you have said about the relationship having an uncertain future because she is going home to China in a week, complicates things for her the same way they complicates it for you. She may react to that complication differently than you.

Having an awesome candlelit dinner can shift the relationship one way, and having a breakup fight can shift it another, and even meeting on a day with really bad weather might shift things.

And having drama, any type, will shift things.

[1stTimer]

So what happened next?  I got a very long phone text (very long) about how inconsiderate I was to disturb her when she was studying and that I completely broke her concentration and her ability to pass her test is now in doubt and something about her daughter (I didn't know she has a daughter).  All I did was call and leave a 15 word message.

So what did I do? I didn't take it personally. Yes she was wrong. So what. I could either continue or move on. I mailed her (at work) a picture of a bull in a chinashop with my name on the bull with an exclamation point. She got back to me.

I respect what you did Skip, but from my experience, I'd also be concerned about the message. Yes I get you are trying to traverse an early part of a possible relationship so made allowances, but to a degree, I think you also set a precedent for the rest of the relationship i.e. it is ok for you to lash out, treat me like this, etc. I've found once you start making allowances you are simply stuck there. So from your experience having done similar things with other women, how would you 'meal culpa' something that was not "your bad" but also start to develop boundaries moving forward? I mean you can't just do a 'whoops my bad' for you whole relationship while she lashes out.

Who knows what is going on in people's minds. Who knows what was going on in you last two girlfriends minds and they ebbed and flowed. It's important to be able to ride the ebbs and flows without acting out. People respect that.

Yup I rode it out the first *several* time she did it, with grace and kindness. At what point do people respect that but lose respect for the person. Cancel? No problem. Again, no warning. Don't worry. Not show up. Hey we all make mistakes. Her friend already told me not only how well I treat her but how nice I am by not yelling at her or complaining if she is late or didn't show-up, etc. I get it, that made her feel safe. Did it also make her feel as if she could be late and not show-up? I don't want that relationship. Figuring out a way to balance boundaries and not 'acting out' is the hard part.

What you have said about the relationship having an uncertain future because she is going home to China in a week, complicates things for her the same way they complicates it for you. She may react to that complication differently than you.

I got that belatedly. When I separated her from the last (and please don't refer to the last as GF she was not   ) I got she was not (likely) a twisted mind-playing damaged little girl, she was a real lady with an ex-husband, a grown child, a business, hard-working and very respectful from a different culture to boot that clearly liked and respected me. Which gave me some perspective on what might be going on. Which is why I reached out the way I did. So if there is a next person or her, I'll take that one to heart (skip the initial reaction, try to get where she might be coming from vs where I fear she might be).
[/quote]

[1stTimer]

You know 1stT, if there’s anything I learned through my relationship with my BPDbf, it’s that many times when I relied on his words I’d figuratively, and sometimes literally fall my knees.  My heart would break a little more as his promises landed on the floor and scattered.  Evaporated.  And I KNEW him... .Only actions mattered.  And so many of those were painful, too.

Ah yes... .sometimes everything I know is wrong.  I still don’t trust myself.

Gems

That is the hardest part Gem, I hear you. Not trusting yourself. Which makes you not trust other people who often deserve your trust. I didn't trust myself this time either I realize, reverted quickly to "I made the SAME mistake again!" (committed to a woman who wanted me to who was FOS). Now if I'd trusted my gut I'd have not even had considered that since there was not a THING about her that suggested that. I mean I know I keep coming back to it but the lady went to pray for me and couldn't sleep or eat because of a meeting I was having. I know you know a little about my last years but that has been sorely lacking in terms of friends, family, romance and this lady I've known for less than two months can't eat because she is concerned about me. That blew. my. mind. And I should have given her all the benefit of the doubt in the world To my discredit I did not. So if I blew a great possibility it is on me, but I think at the very least I did enough by reaching out to have a great lady to call a friend even if she is 1/2 a world away and just wants to have a drink and catch up when she visits again. I'm better and richer and happier for having known her and really, when I think of her in Church kneeling and asking God to make my meeting work out it fills me like little has in years. Not the religion part since I'm not a religious man; the fact that SHE is and it was important enough to her to do so. Wow. I'm holding on to that the rest can play out like it does. Sheishie ni Gem ;)

[1stTimer]

Reading her texts before she went quite/polite I think the girl was sort of saying goodbye-for-now;

It's not about the money! it's about the English Language! It's really nice to meet you! I will come back to New York next year, I hope we have no language barriers with our communications! I welcome you very much to come to me in Chengdu!

and

Thank you so much for your love!
Thank you so much for liking me!

... .I really have a language problem! You really don't have to worry

At the dinner last week which was sort of a coming out party for me of sorts, she said at least 3x "Michael and me we speak with Google Translator" and her bi-lingual friend's last comment to me was "It is very hard for Chinese-American couples when they don't speak each other's languages, though I know one couple that is very happily married like that". I think this is at the crux of the issue. One of the last nice dinners we had was with her very pretty chinese neighbor, very nice, 28 or so. We were all vibing off each other with great food I cooked for them and wine and candlenight but one thing that was clear was I could have an extended conversation with her friend. Not that we had chemistry per se, but I think she kind of saw that give and take and easy laughter (even though we mostly discussed XL and myself and I answered a lot of questions about why I liked her, what I liked about her, etc) and that also sort of marked a turning point. Anyway, my point is all the other generalized conjecture aside (no offense to anyone who has given it is much appreciated and possibly relevant to her and I specifically) that this seems to be the issue that kept rearing it's head and I'd gather was a subject of much discussion post dinner.

Will keep the thread posted if/when she follows-up. Meanwhile 我想你 and when was the last time I said THAT to myself?

[Skip]

I think you also set a precedent for the rest of the relationship i.e. it is ok for you to lash out, treat me like this, etc. I've found once you start making allowances you are simply stuck there.

Or maybe I showed that I was confident and not wired for drama.  I have good boundaries and I don't have to make every hill a hill to die on.  Sure, if I did this a second time, I would have exited, and with no drama.

We don't build relationships by going off on people. It doesn't work. We don't train others to be better people. We have to be open and encouraging and strong and observant. When we are, we see who is before us and we can decide if we want to hang around.

You may need to be more flexible and forgiving. And if things aren't right, don't react - just give yourself a day or two to think about it and decide if you are planning to continue on.  Accept your partner for who they are. Decide if the are right for you.

[1stTimer]

Or maybe I showed that I was confident and not wired for drama.  I have good boundaries and I don't have to make every hill a hill to die on.  Sure, if I did this a second time, I would have exited, and with no drama.

We don't build relationships by going off on people. It doesn't work. We don't train others to be better people. We have to be open and encouraging and strong and observant. When we are, we see who is before us and we can decide if we want to hang around.

I wasn't suggesting that you showed the first time you could be walked all over by any means. I applaud the way you handled it. I guess I'm asking how you balance having boundaries with not fighting every battle. I've likely retreated to fighting every hill precisely because I didn't set good boundaries in the past so am trying to figure out how to balance the two and when.  And it isn't always a decision between hang around or not right? I mean in a real relationship there are things you will accept sometimes but not always and you don't have to 'go off' on people or 'train them to be better'. But you can communicate your boundaries without simply walking away/not hanging around. I for one do NOT "go off" on people at least not historically. I've mentioned I likely brought my close-quarters family strife stuff (react first) which is not good. I dont so much (at all) mind "going off" on last "gf" in terms of her having deserved it and more. I do mind it in retrospect for ME. Because it clearly wouldn't and didn't serve me well when it mattered (this relationship). So just trying to figure out how to balance all of this; lose the reactive stuff I've learned and not bring it into relationships moving forward, hold on to my instincts which are good and serve me well, keep boundaries in relationships I want to be in w/o as you say making every hill a battle.

[1stTimer]

Accept your partner for who they are. Decide if the are right for you.

Then no one would end up with anyone and we wouldn't have to worry so much about communicating right? We'd just keep breaking up with people who didn't have/do everything we wanted or we'd accept things we don't want from other people because we accepted them. If I have a habit of being late should my new gf just accept it is me? Or will she tell me "I don't feel respected when you keep me waiting all the time." If my new chinese gf in fact does thing it is ok to change plans to be with her friends because other men didn't say anything, do I just say oh well seems like this is the way it is break up with her or accept it? Or do I say something? I think 'accept and decide if they are right' is too easy. I think if you like the big stuff and can overlook or accept the little stuff there are still things in between that you need to figure out. that is part of having a relationship no?

[once removed]

I've likely retreated to fighting every hill precisely because I didn't set good boundaries in the past so am trying to figure out how to balance the two and when.

i think what i hear Skip saying is that this:

We don't train others to be better people.

is an example of bad boundaries and that this:

And if things aren't right, don't react - just give yourself a day or two to think about it and decide if you are planning to continue on.  Accept your partner for who they are. Decide if the are right for you.

is an example of good boundaries.

he isnt saying that you never communicate these things, but that doing so with drama or breakup threats wont get you there. good boundaries are a lifestyle, a mindset that doesnt necessarily come naturally.

youll get there.

[1stTimer]

i think what i hear Skip saying is that this:

is an example of bad boundaries and that this:

is an example of good boundaries.

he isnt saying that you never communicate these things, but that doing so with drama or breakup threats wont get you there. good boundaries are a lifestyle, a mindset that doesnt necessarily come naturally.

youll get there.

Ok OR, I hear that.

[1stTimer]

I think, 1T, when you are courting a women in your age range, things are much more complex then you are understanding. Very often there are mixed signals and since the relationship is new, every event has the ability to significantly shift the thinking of both parties. In general, men pursue through it if they are interested (and that generally means being fun, easy, patient, forgiving, no drama) and women may be more unsure, concerned about vulnerability, wounded... .needing to won over... .

Note too on the " fun, easy, patient, forgiving, no drama"; this is basically exactly what every one of every group of friends I was "shopped around" too said to me; you are so patient and nice and caring and take care of her and do everything for her and protect her and are never angry or mad and so good to her. Even last whack job said those very same things and how safe and easy she felt with me. Doing these things is not hard nor is winning over they come naturally.  I just have discovered some trip wires I need to keep an eye on, disarm, etc. I'm betting that even when my 'drama' side is not so dramatic it is in stark contrast to the rest of the time and is probably worse for a woman who has let herself feel safe and protected and in a safe place. Trying to get that under control and back to where I was.

[1stTimer]

good boundaries are a lifestyle, a mindset that doesn't necessarily come naturally.

Yup, never learned them in my house growing up, just the opposite in fact. So got walked on in many relationships, business and otherwise. Which caused me to then have to furiously fight to re-establish position/boundaries after. My analogy was starting on the 50 yard line, allowing the other person to walk you down to the goal line, and as soon as you asked to get back to your own 10-yard line they acted like you were taking from them. Which I guess you are. So I learned to fight the moment there was a push to the 49-yard line instead of allowing for the ebb and flow of going back and forth between their 40 and your 40 as a natural part of the relationship and picking some yardage past where you would stack some defenses. And even then I guess the point is not a blitz. So if your dead-zone is 30 yards then maybe a pleasant warning at 39, a whistle at 35 and if they ignore it and get to 30... .walk away from the game? If I knew more about football this whole metaphor would make more sense.