If it's not one thing, it's another.

[Depression = 72% of members]

 Life seems stable, for a while; out of the blue it can change and come out of anywhere, once the trigger has been pulled. Last Saturday, my uBPDh and I had a beautiful ride in the country enjoying the fall colors. I can always tell that he is ready to explode (he drives fast, sighs a lot, and see's in the negative).  The day ended with a night cap at a local place in which we sat near two women and a man. They were loud and drinking, and my husband said he was uncomfortable. I asked if he wanted to move and he said no. These three were way over their limit and went outside altogether to smoke. When they came in, one of them announced that she would like to see both of them in her bed. It was repulsive, and I looked at my husband and said, 'sad'.
  I was divorced for over 18 years, and raised my kids as a single mom.  I made sure that I didn't bring strange men home, or get into relationships that might harm my kids. What I did do, which I am not proud of was that I used the internet as sexual entertainment, that led me to some out of the box behavior (for me). Not going into detail, I had been left by my ex for a stripper and always felt that I just didn't have what he wanted. I have tried to exam my motives for being 'bi', but can only bring myself to believe it was because I had little value and didn't care about myself.  I wanted to be used if that can ever make sense.
   I met my husband and we started a whirlwind romance, that led us to living together and engagement. During this time, he ran a background check on me that included a deep web scan. He found the sites I used to visit and some pictures that were there. He said he needed to know what he was getting into and I tried to explain as I have here what that was all about. From that day on, he hasn't trusted me. We have gotten married and have been together for almost five years. Today was the crusher.
    We have been planning on moving in a year into a new home. It's been exciting that we will finally have a place that is new to us both.  Here's the hitch, he came into my room saying that he was uncomfortable buying a half a million dollar home that might go half to me if we divorced. I asked him if that were in his mind and he said he never knows on a daily basis when I might wake up and become the person I was before I met him. He cannot forgive me, and questions everything on my body (small bruises etc.).  He said he just doesn't trust anyone.
     I feel as though he can't trust himself. The scenarios that play on his mind are not true. I have been faithful and loyal to him since the day I met him.  Commitment to me is just that and when you can't obey them then it's time to exam the relationship. He just nodded and said someday he will let go. But he keeps hanging on to my past.
     Prior to this it was my kids that took too much of my time, then it was the dogs, then it was my spending or use of the vehicle, and now it's my past. This may never end and i just need to keep my head up and not let this devalue me. It took long to rise up again.
     Last year he presented me with divorce papers twice. Not once have I threatened nor left him. Does this anxiety about the house buying mean he's thinking of divorce?  Sounds like it is to me.

   
     

[loyalwife]

 Life seems stable, for a while; out of the blue it can change and come out of anywhere, once the trigger has been pulled. Last Saturday, my uBPDh and I had a beautiful ride in the country enjoying the fall colors. I can always tell that he is ready to explode (he drives fast, sighs a lot, and see's in the negative).  The day ended with a night cap at a local place in which we sat near two women and a man. They were loud and drinking, and my husband said he was uncomfortable. I asked if he wanted to move and he said no. These three were way over their limit and went outside altogether to smoke. When they came in, one of them announced that she would like to see both of them in her bed. It was repulsive, and I looked at my husband and said, 'sad'.
  I was divorced for over 18 years, and raised my kids as a single mom.  I made sure that I didn't bring strange men home, or get into relationships that might harm my kids. What I did do, which I am not proud of was that I used the internet as sexual entertainment, that led me to some out of the box behavior (for me). Not going into detail, I had been left by my ex for a stripper and always felt that I just didn't have what he wanted. I have tried to exam my motives for being 'bi', but can only bring myself to believe it was because I had little value and didn't care about myself.  I wanted to be used if that can ever make sense.
   I met my husband and we started a whirlwind romance, that led us to living together and engagement. During this time, he ran a background check on me that included a deep web scan. He found the sites I used to visit and some pictures that were there. He said he needed to know what he was getting into and I tried to explain as I have here what that was all about. From that day on, he hasn't trusted me. We have gotten married and have been together for almost five years. Today was the crusher.
    We have been planning on moving in a year into a new home. It's been exciting that we will finally have a place that is new to us both.  Here's the hitch, he came into my room saying that he was uncomfortable buying a half a million dollar home that might go half to me if we divorced. I asked him if that were in his mind and he said he never knows on a daily basis when I might wake up and become the person I was before I met him. He cannot forgive me, and questions everything on my body (small bruises etc.).  He said he just doesn't trust anyone.
     I feel as though he can't trust himself. The scenarios that play on his mind are not true. I have been faithful and loyal to him since the day I met him.  Commitment to me is just that and when you can't obey them then it's time to exam the relationship. He just nodded and said someday he will let go. But he keeps hanging on to my past.
     Prior to this it was my kids that took too much of my time, then it was the dogs, then it was my spending or use of the vehicle, and now it's my past. This may never end and i just need to keep my head up and not let this devalue me. It took long to rise up again.
     Last year he presented me with divorce papers twice. Not once have I threatened nor left him. Does this anxiety about the house buying mean he's thinking of divorce?  Sounds like it is to me.

   
     

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry for the tough situation you're in.  I'm particularly sorry that he has threatened divorce, as I know first hand how discouraging and devaluing that can be.  The best thought I can share with you is to try to worry less about what his words or actions mean, and concentrate energy on valuing yourself and staying in touch with your own feelings.  Part of devaluation can be starting to feel like we're not entitled to our own feelings, and it's important not to let that happen.  Rather than worrying about what his words mean, just take it as him voicing his insecurities out loud, and ask yourself how you feel about buying the house.  If it feels good to you, feels like something that is in line with what you want to be doing, then do your half of making the house happen, and he'll do what he does.

RC

[Sad Guy]

It's handy to remember that his fears and worries about what you might do are rooted in what he believes he might do. He's concerned he'll wake up one day as a different person, he's just projecting that feeling onto you. This whole thing has nothing to do with you or these particulars about your past. If he hadn't found your past he would be pointing the finger at something else. Even if you were squeaky clean he'd find it suspicious and think you're a master at hiding secrets, or that you must have some underhanded motivation to be with him because he doesn't believe he can attract someone with a good past.

First of all, do not invalidate his concerns. Don't agree with them at all, but validate his feelings about the situation. It's legitimate to worry that someone might change as a person. Be supportive about it. Again, this isn't about you or any indication you've given him, it's about his internal fears about himself, but I doubt that's something he's ready to hear.

That might be enough to get him to drop the subject all together. He's winding himself up and feeling paranoid, so if you make him feel a little less crazy he might not focus on it so much.

If he keeps going... .you need to push him away a little. He's playing a push/pull game and the more you pull the more he pushes. "I've been thinking about what you said, and I can see why you might have doubts about things working out. I know that I'm not going to be that person again, but I don't think it's a good idea for me to get a house with someone who can't trust me."

If you're game, you can go further and suggest if he cannot trust you then it would be best for the both of you to get a divorce. He's considering divorce now, but if you push away he might try to work things out.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi loyalwife, I'm so sorry your husband has found a new point to attack you with. I think Radcliff and Sad Guy give amazing advice on this part.

All I can say is that in normal relationships, our past mistakes become a point of to forgive and stay in a relationship, or not forgive and leave. When one decides to accept and stay, it opens a place for new growth.

In my experience with a BPD relationship, our past mistakes are not an opportunity for forgiveness but ammunition to be hauled out every time there is a conflict. This is not a healthy relationship function and in my opinion should not be engaged with.

I think its good you've identified your husband's need to always have something to latch on to justify divorce. Maybe he just feels he himself is completely unsuited to marriage but isn't willing to identify his own side of things. What do you think?

Sending you strength,
Roland

[loyalwife]

Maybe he just feels he himself is completely unsuited to marriage but isn't willing to identify his own side of things. What do you think?

He has said at one time that perhaps he was meant more to be a 'boyfriend' than a husband. He will even call me his girlfriend, not when around others, only me. It used to bother me, but I've accepted that he can latch onto the idea of a gf, but a wife means something different. When challenged on my loyalty etc., I reflect on my past performance with him, during good and bad times. He wants that closeness, yet he doesn't want to share his life as 'one'. I get it.

I'm having a hard time today. I saw a picture of a car on his computer last night and said "Z4".  He went into protection mod and said "I'm only looking, not buy-ing'. Then this morning he announced that the dealer is making him a deal on a trade in on one of the cars and he's going to pick up his "Z4". I knew he would as when he seriously scourges for cars that means he's in the market. Currently we have 10, this makes 11... .unless he trades it in.  This year there have been 9 car transactions, all his. I don't care that he is spending his money on what he wants, that's not the issue. I just wish he would include me on the decision. He doesn't have time to take out with me, but plenty of time to discuss new cars and transactions. I'm just hurt, not mad. He makes promises that he won't buy more, but then fails. I never make him feel guilty as I don't want to bring on an episode.

His mention of feeling vulnerable buying a house with me because he would lose half of it in a divorce, made me sad. He will talk about our future, growing old, winding down business, and then say "what if things go south?". It's so confusing, yet that is what goes through his thoughts. Yesterday he told me that he just wanted a nice person to grow old with, and felt as though because I come in a pretty package too, that he was lucky. I see BPD as being a battlefield in the mind. One day he wants the closeness, the next day it scares him. This will never change. The reality of not being alone on this subject with others helps a lot. It is difficult to maintain a marriage/relationship with pwBPD, and takes resilience, strength and compassion.

A year ago, I made the resolution that if he pushed ever again for a divorce I would accept it. He has implied a time or two, and I sat down with him to map it out, and he cried. Divorce doesn't scare me as much as it scares him. I love him so much I am willing to let him go, if he's so unhappy. The idea of being alone is what scares him the most. I am never alone, so that cannot scare me. I have faith in God, a great relationship with my kids and friends. He knows deep in his heart that his brokenness is what stands between him and happiness. I will suggest he return to his therapist, but then again, he says he doesn't have time. (Time to buy cars yes, but take care of himself, no).

I needed to get this out today. It isn't something easily explained to others that do not know the dynamics of BPD. I recognize my part, and what I can do. For now, it's actually to not focus on what I do not have, and feel grateful for what I do. Peace is worth a thousand cars 

[RolandOfEld]

Hi lw, I'm sorry you're having a hard time today. I know those kinds of days all too well, when you've been assaulted by their ultra-contradictory emotions  and its just hard to get your footing or hope to get someone to understand what living with someone with this problem is like.

I have to say though that I think you've made tremendous progress, mainly in the way you've managed to cordon off a peaceful life for yourself that's beyond the reach of his illness. I admire you deeply for that, especially remembering where you were when I first met you on here.

In many ways I'm doing the same. While I'm working hard to find a way to the peaceful divorce I think I want, I'm finding that there are more and more small hidden meadows of peace within my life: a good moment with the kids, the feeling of listening to music, my job. I can start to say that she is a negative element in my life, but does not represent or effect my entire life.

Please keep up the seriously inspiring work.

Yours,
Roland

[loyalwife]

It's the holidays, and though I'd like to say that I look forward to them as I used to do, it's not true. In my 'head' I think about the family seated around the table enjoying Thanksgiving dinner together. Unfortunately, my pwBPDh wants nothing to do with it, and doesn't want to participate. He told me today that he hates my son and will never forgive him, and doesn't want to be in the same room with him again. I crossed a boundary when I just assumed that he would change his mind about it, as he did last year. This whole conversation threw him back into his anger mode and he's once again pushed me away. My son on the other hand doesn't understand why he is so hated, and so I have to be the peacekeeper in not mentioning it. But it doesn't mean that I am not hurt.

My husband expects a big apology from my son. He thinks my son has taken $100,000 (exagerated) from him and three years of his life. He blames him for being behind in his bills. As I have learned more about BPD, and his FOO as well as his ex and ex-daughter(yes, he has denounced her), I realize he has a difficult if not impossible time connecting to family. In his past marriage he didn't participate in holidays so this shouldn't come as a surprise. He uses his hatred of my son to distance himself from the 'feeling' of family. That makes sense to me.  I can never change this aspect of him, nor his belief that he is being treated unfairly.

So, if he feels this way about basically everyone and everything (including my dog), then it goes to say he feels this way about me. He may think this way, but that doesn't make it true or real. To him yes, but to the rest of the world, no. The rest of the world for the most part have separated from him (except business clients). I have proved to be the loyal one, but even loyal ones get tired of being the scapegoat occasionally. All I need to do, is look at those that do see me for who I am, my family; and I see the truth.

In his rage and dysregulation he will say "get away from me, I don't want to talk to you". At one time, I'd be trying hard to have him understand and make amends. It never worked out that way and he would just escalate. Having a relationship and marriage with him means that I get to be the 'adult' and calm one.

I just don't like the holidays anymore. The festive time of the year, that means having those close to you cannot happen; not the whole family that includes him. This is the way it will always be, and I must face it. I also must face that for the rest of my life, there will be times that I will be told to "go away, leave me alone". My husband isn't willing to forgive and move on, he would rather have a reason to be mad. The fact that it hurts me in doing so, makes it even more compelling to him.

If only I could act as though this doesn't bother me, it would be helpful. Perhaps writing a note, and tucking it away to be read each year pre-holiday "Don't cry, it's not worth it. Be thankful for those you love and what you have. You can't change people, only your own feelings".   Followed by "Don't expect him to participate". 

Thanks for listening, BFD family. 

[RolandOfEld]

Hi lw, I can relate very strongly to the pain of having a partner that wants nothing to do with your family.

Next year I will go back to the US to see my family for the first time without my wife. On one level, the sentimental part of me misses when she could happily interact with my family, and I'm quite sad. On another, it will be such a deep relief to be with my family and able to talk openly, instead of all the lying and scripted pretending I had to do when she was there. I cry now just thinking about it.

So when you open it up a little deeper, do you think that a Thanksgiving just with you and your kids will be more enjoyable? It might not be "whole" in the sense that your partner can't join, but can you be more your "whole" self?

You brought up the key word in your screen name, "loyal". I was wondering how you felt when you chose that name compared to how you feel about it now. It's a word that carries a lot of meaning.

~Roland

[Cailin]

It’s so hard to live with that kind of mistrust and insecure attachment. 4 months ago I was sitting in a restaurant with my husband, planning a trip to visit one of my kids living out of state. My husband, as is almost always the case, was  engaging in verbal exhibitionism. Conversations are typically not reciprocated. In this case, I tried to steer the conversation to include me, but he kept monopolizing the conversation. Finally, I said in a sweetenly sarcastic voice “ let’s just talk about topics that interest you, that way you can stay the center of attention”. Well, his mouth fell open, he grabbed his keys and wallet and walked out. In time I left too. Within 10 minutes he was blowing my phone up with texts and calls stating that he wanted a divorce. That went on for a month... I decided to call his bluff. I hired a mediator and had him meet me there to discuss the divorce process. That’s where it came out that he was merely using the threat of divorce to get my attention. I have discovered that a good mediator is better for us than a therapist because we are forced to listen to each other and stay solution focused.

[Ozzie101]

Wow. I could have written a lot of that. My (undiagnosed) husband is the same way with my family. I don't have children, but I have parents, a grandmother, siblings, nieces and nephews I am close to to varying degrees. I enjoy spending time with them. He is an only child who has a difficult relationship with his adopted mother and is just now developing what promises to be a strong relationship with his biological family.

I now dread any email or text suggesting a family get-together because I know it will trigger weeks of instability and anxiety. He tolerates my grandmother. He likes two of my sisters just fine. He goes back and forth on my parents and really dislikes the other two sisters.

I know they're not perfect. I know that very well. But he always throws it at me that they're perfect and I think they are. I've been very honest and vocal about their shortcomings so that's really frustrating and unfair.

The slightest thing sends him into a whole conversation loop about how we're the lowest people on the totem pole. No one likes us or cares about us. Everyone looks down on him because he's divorced. His son -- my stepson -- isn't thought about or cared about at all. It goes on and on.

Thing is, he has a point on some things. For instance, I've always been good to my sisters' kids on their birthdays. My sisters haven't acknowledged my stepson's for the last couple of years. I figured it was my failure to not remind them when it is, etc. My husband was adamant that I confront them and stop doing stuff for their kids. To an extent, I agreed with him and agreed with his feelings. But I disagreed with the way he wanted me to go about it. I knew they had been kind of thoughtless but also knew it was partly my fault for not being enough of an advocate. My sisters were apologetic, saying they weren't really sure how much of a role we wanted them to play with him (not wanting to confuse him or upset his bio family, etc.) and I knew we hadn't been really clear on that. Not good enough for my husband though. To him, that was just another "See, they look down on me for being divorced."

There have been times when he's told me he wants us to cut them off completely. He always backtracks on that. But I feel like he's almost constantly looking for reasons to get upset, or even setting things in motion so he can get righteously angry at them. More than once in his rages he's given me the "Them or me" ultimatum. Once I actually went up and got a suitcase. He was petrified.

[loyalwife]

It's Thanksgiving eve, and the plan is for my husband to be away. In so many ways I am relieved to have the ability to be around my kids and their S.O.'s unhindered and able to be myself, without fear of retaliation. In the past, I would feel so sorry that my husband wasn't going to be around family, but then, it is his choice. So, I'm busy making food, getting the best linens out as well as preparing a feast for my 'kids'. I was single for 20 years as the kids grew up. We had plenty of holidays 'alone', yet never lonely. I like to think that even have a home, wherever I am no matter where it is. And yes, Roland, it is much better. You brought up an interesting thought:

You brought up the key word in your screen name, "loyal". I was wondering how you felt when you chose that name compared to how you feel about it now. It's a word that carries a lot of meaning.

When I first signed on here, I was beyond frustrated and broken, and yet I stayed with my husband. I thought that being loyal meant sticking with someone through thick and thin. Now, I see that being loyal also means being loyal and authentic to self. I cannot be anyone other than who I am, and that is a devoted mother as well as spouse. So the word 'loyal' has changed for me in meaning.
Again, last weekend, he started in about how much my son cost him two years ago (the number is a ridiculous amount $100,000). This is all false, and though we supported my son for awhile, he finally got on his feet. It's difficult for a special needs kid to do. But the anger gets so bad that he won't talk to me for days and sulks. This time, I played it cool and just let him stay in his muck. I occasionally would engage him in talk, but only if needed and not anything emotional. He would say "get out of here, out of my presence". I turned and said "You got it", and walked away. He sends a text "I'm sorry, come back out here". And when I go, he says "Are you going to stop being a brat? In my mind, I ask him the same thing". I'm only a brat because I won't partake in hating my son with him. My therapist has suggested that I make sure the two of them aren't in the same room again. My son, who doesn't understand the drama, and wonders why he never sees my husband, is innocent in this. I just tell him that holidays are traumatic to him, and family is. He doesn't want to think about either. This isn't a lie, it's the truth.
So although many of us may not have the perfect family life, and there are times that seem scary and crazy, it is our life. I have chosen to stay by my husband (for now at least), and have a relationship on the side with my kids. When they are around, I feel like the luckiest person around, and am so proud of their accomplishments. I enjoy how they have turned into such nice, kind people. I must have done something right
The circle of life, is sweet.

[loyalwife]

Thanksgiving is over, and the kids I had a good time. Like any good time, there is a price to pay. My pwBPD spent the day at the airport having dinner by himself, feeling sorry for himself, or course. Slowly but surely it comes to the surface again and again and again... .I don't know how much more I can take. Only to learn tonight that everyday, EVERYDAY, he contemplates whether he stays or whether he goes. That way, he won't ever have to think about my son again. He wants to run away, and turn his back on it all. I asked him what would be reasonable and he said that I should stop seeing my kids (especially my son) except for once a month. He wants me all for himself it seems, or at least he doesn't want me to be happy.

He saw a therapist one time. I asked him to make another appointment so that he can have someone to talk to about this ongoing hatred. He said "What do you want to do if they tell me I am in a toxic relationship with you?" I looked him in the eyes and said "I will go." He didn't like that of course, but I am tired of all the threats. Like everyone in his life, his answer is to run away, paint them black and erase them. His belief that nobody comes through for him becomes a reality, he doesn't give them a chance.

Until today, I thought that loving him unconditionally would repair the damage from his childhood, his failed past relationships with 'everyone'. It isn't enough. It will never be enough. Sure, I don't engage with his drama, find something to do, take care of myself, but he rages on. He has no idea how close I am to leaving. He doesn't know that I can make choices too. The point is: how long will I continue to be abused and then sink back into believing things will get better?

Everyday I too make a choice.

He said that I wasn't honest with him the first night we met when I told him my kids were grown. He thought that meant that they had lives of their own and were not in much contact with me. Their ages at the time were 20 and 18. I didn't lie, I thought that being attached to someones children was just part of being a parent. What I didn't know was that he had a turbulent relationship with his daughter and he never wanted to be a parent. Being a parent has been one of the best things in life to me. I can't imagine distancing myself from those that I love.

I feel pretty messed up tonight. Perhaps someone out there has some words of wisdom, or encouragement because I can't seem to find any for myself.

[RolandOfEld]

He has no idea how close I am to leaving. He doesn't know that I can make choices too. The point is: how long will I continue to be abused and then sink back into believing things will get better?

Hi lw, don't know if my personal experience will be helpful here. Even though my wife asked me to delay the discussion on separation till she's adjusted to her new job, I've been implementing what I call an "emotional divorce". This means withdrawing all spousal affection and behavior and just acting like a nice friend or roommate. I give what a friend would give, and nothing more. Its kind of like test driving what our relationship would be like after a literal divorce. I think she might on some level be getting the hint but isn't ready to admit what's happening.

So what I'm saying is that you're leaving need not necessarily be some dramatic packing of bags and walking out the door one night (though, in all honestly, if it wasn't for the kids, that's probably what I would do.) Even while you are still in the house together, you can adjust to a "leaving" mentality and start living your life the way you would if you separated. This might make it easier transition for both of you.

What do you think?

~ROE

[loyalwife]

Roe,
    Thanks for the life saver, I thought I would drown tonight:(  The circular argument has been going on and on, and he's once again in attack mode, and blaming me for it all. This push/pull theme has been his go to for so long, and it's always the same scenario, filled with mean thoughts "Why don't you move out with your son and his girlfriend, get a king size bed for you all". It hurts to the core, and it is not healthy. I stopped talking about it not being fair a long time ago.  Nothing is quite fair, but for the BPD they feel they are on a cross. I know my feelings have changed, and I can tell that I am not at all willing to sacrifice my peace for his craziness. It won't get better or change (his words). Yet never would I say the mean, crass things he says to me. I wouldn't want to hurt him, so why is it okay that he does? He said earlier "I wish you would just leave". I used to think this was all said during his psychotic rages, but how much of it is true and the way he really feels?
Wouldn't most people pack their bags under these circumstances? How much hurt can you withstand?

you can adjust to a "leaving" mentality and start living your life the way you would if you separated. This might make it easier transition for both of you.

I give you credit for being able to have the strength to do this, and be there for your kids. For me, I haven't quite reached the point that separation is what I want, even an emotional one. Yet, he imposes one on me all the time, filled with all kinds of abuse. (mental) When it comes to not be affectionate etc., my heart needs to be willing. So, I need to arrive at that junction.
 
Thank you... .

[RolandOfEld]

When it comes to not be affectionate etc., my heart needs to be willing. So, I need to arrive at that junction.

Hi lw I get you completely. People who are not in these kind of relationships often judge us for not "packing the bags and running". They don't understand we have an emotional connection to this relationship, toxic as it is, something that took years to build and can't be toppled in one push. They think it should be like tearing a piece of paper, but really it's like taking apart the stitches of a complex embroidery one by one.

For me, I have already spotted the train approaching the station. It took a very long time to get there, even though I think I knew I wanted out a long time ago. You and only you will know when you are ready. We will be there for every step of the way. From my view you are doing an awesome job.

Yours,
Roland