So Hard to Understand... My ex-love story...

[Maniplus]

Long story short, I met this beautiful girl 5 years ago. At the time, I thought she was everything I wanted in a girl... .she seemed very confident, very socially intelligent, smart, and did I mention exactly my type in terms of looks.

Relationship wasn't easy. She was very critical and I took those criticism as a way to better myself (many of her criticisms had some sort of base).

Relationship was also a roller coaster with frequent breakups and get back togethers. When we first met, her mother wanted to speak to me but then changed her mind. Her dad pulled me aside one time and said "my daughter is not what she seems" but he left it vague. When she found out her dad had told me that, she got very upset.

This was my first "serious" long-term relationship and it was draining me, it was hard, but I had heard relationships are "work" and you can make things work by giving more. I thought if I just gave more, we could work this out and that one day, we might get married.

There were times when I was the happiest person on earth. Seeing her happy made me, happy. And that was my addiction.

And I knew when she gets upset, I know how to distract her (usually with fun activity, etc). After a while, I got used to walking on eggshells but I also knew my way out of them, or so I thought.

I also thought that she is just inexperienced and has unreasonable expectations.

After a year and half, one night, I drove for 3 hours, sat in traffic to go see her. When I got to her, she was upset, drunk, and not even happy to see me. She broke a glass in the kitchen, which shattered on the ground. She kept walking around bare feet, and I said "Babe, please be careful" - to which she snapped, "Don't tell me what to do. Why don't you just leave."

At that moment, I had a glimpse into the future, 10 years ahead, when I'm standing there with our child, and she is having one of her episodes. I asked myself, is this what I want for myself in 10 years? and the answer was a definite NO. So at that very moment, I got up, left her apartment and told her to never contact me again.

That night, I drove the 3 hours black, she was emailing, texting and calling non-stop. After I blocked her every where, she resorted to having her friends call and text. I stayed persistent and ignored all.

After some time had passed, we slowly started talking again and opted to be friends. She told me she is dating someone new and I had also started dating. But one day, she just disappeared on me.

No relationship I would have from here on would be as intense, so I rationed I didn't love these other women as much as her. I tried to reach out to her many times but was ignored.

I alway thought our connection was "so strong" that we will come back together again one day... .and that day would come 3 years later... .

I was in Europe, enjoying good company and good weather. After talking about our relationships, exes, and love, a friend suggested I reach out to her, so I sent a text saying it would be good to catch up.

She called me later that day, we had an hour long chat, it was pleasant and she apologized for many things. I was just happy to hear her voice.

Next day she called me back and said she had called the night before only to say goodbye as she was about to commit suicide and our phone call gave her hope to stay alive. She told me she is depressed, that she has an eating disorder, that she has no money, and her rent is past due.

I took the next flight back home and told her, together we will sort everything out and for her to not worry.

When I got there, we got along well. It was almost as if nothing had changed, and no time had passed. I had finally gotten back the girl of my dreams and this time I would not let her go.

As time went by, I realized things are a lot more serious that I thought and she is in a whole lot worst condition that 3 years ago. Back then, I thought she was just a difficult person, now, she was ill.

Among many things:
- She told me about her risky behavior, how she has taken money once for sex, how she drove out to the ghetto and got drunk, how she climbed a bridge just to feel alive
- How she has maxed out her credit cards mostly from ordering Uber Eats and how she is binge eating
- How she is picking on her skin constantly
- How she is having suicidal thoughts constantly
- How she feels empty inside
- How she would get triggered and then "need space"
- How she doesn't like any of the therapist she is working with
- How she is numbing herself by drinking a lot and smoking weed

With all of this, I was still determined to "find the solution," for a whole month, we basically did whatever she wanted, go to beach, rent AirBnb, etc etc. These things temporarily helped but it was obvious, this is just a band-aide.

It was so painful, heart breaking to see the girl of my dream like this. And while I was helping, the entire situation would keep getting reframed as
- I'm just "using" her
- This is entertainment for me
- I'm a fake and I don't care for her
- She just wants love, why can't I just love her

Her therapist told me that she is at moderate to high risk for suicide and that I should call 5150 if I think suicide is imminent. Later she told me she knew how to manipulate the questions therapist was asking her, she said she could sense the therapist stress rising and because she didn't want to be locked away, she changed her answers.

This was a massive responsibility just for me. To constantly make sure she doesn't kill herself... .and often she would take these solo "I need space" walks where I couldn't even be with her.

Until one day, we went to a hot spring resort. There she treated me horribly, either by not speaking to me, humiliating me in front of other people, flirting with other guys, etc etc. Therapist would later tell me these are the never ending tests.

After that day, I told her I cannot hang out with her any more as this is effecting my mental health. I'm still here for her and support her but from a distance. I had come to accept that this is too big of a challenge for me while she was sabotaging the mission by skipping her appointments, not taking therapy seriously, etc etc.

She told me she is broke, per advise of therapist, I said I am happy to cover your expenses if you take your treatment seriously, I need to be authorized to speak to your therapist. If you skip on your treatment, money stops.

She called me manipulating, she said I just want control and that I don't really care for her.

A week later she called me and said she was dismissed from her school and that she is auditioning to be a stripper. That she started cutting herself. 30 seconds into the call, she got triggered, hung up, called back and said I should never call her again and hung up again.  

It makes me feel sad, heart-broken, and disappointed about all of this. I hate that she cannot be a normal person, I hate that I cannot help or change this situation, I hate that I can't have the girl I thought I knew.

So that's my story. If you read this far, thank you.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Harley Quinn]

Maniplus, welcome 

I feel for you    Her behaviour sounds pretty extreme and I've had some similar experience with my dBPDbf.  It is so hard to see someone we love treat themselves so badly and go so far off the rails.  Is she diagnosed with BPD?  How long ago was that last call from her?

It makes me feel sad, heart-broken, and disappointed about all of this. I hate that she cannot be a normal person, I hate that I cannot help or change this situation, I hate that I can't have the girl I thought I knew.

You've come to the right place.  It's a blessing that you found us.  We can relate to what you're going through.  Having the above realisations is really difficult and hard to accept.  How are you taking care of yourself right now?  Do you have friends and family who are able to understand and be supportive?  You mentioned that you felt your mental health was being affected.  Have you seen a doctor or counsellor for support?

I'd encourage you to read the articles to the right of the screen and also to join other discussions.  There is a wealth of experience here and we help one another through these tough times. 

If you had the chance to work on having a relationship with her, would you want to try again?

Keep posting.  You're not alone. 

Love and light x 

[Mutt]

Hi Maniplus,



I'd like to join Harley Quinn and welcome you to bpdfamily, I'm glad that you have found us there is hope. Many members here can relate with you and offer you guidance and support.

It makes me feel sad, heart-broken, and disappointed about all of this. I hate that she cannot be a normal person, I hate that I cannot help or change this situation, I hate that I can't have the girl I thought I knew.

I was reading your post and thinking that this must be tough on you if you have this r/s as a benchmark you mentioned the highs and how other r/s's didn't feel the same. You had a negative experience for a r/s with your uBPDex my advise is don't give up you'll find that the intimacy in a r/s with a non is very different than a pwBPD being close to someone else, letting your guard down and sharing your innermost thoughts and thins about you that nobody else knows but your partner.

I also thought that it has be really tough to be r/s for her when she's suicidal where was family when this was going on? Were they supporting her?

[Maniplus]

Thank you for replies.

Is she diagnosed with BPD?  How long ago was that last call from her?

She told me she has BPD. Due to privacy laws, therapists were reluctant to speak to me about her condition directly and one of the therapist said instead of blindly helping her with expenses, you should have benchmarks and milestones that if she is following through with treatment, then you continue to cover expenses. They insisted I can easily be "authorized" to know what's going on but she kept insisting its "impossible" for me to be authorized and they can only speak to the patient. One therapist said she is very mentally ill and should check into a psychiatric hospital.
Last call was last Thursday.

How are you taking care of yourself right now?  Do you have friends and family who are able to understand and be supportive?  You mentioned that you felt your mental health was being affected.  Have you seen a doctor or counsellor for support?

I found a therapist who was very experienced with BPD. I had one session few days ago. He advised me to block her and find another r/s. He said because of my emotions toward her, I may not even be the best person to help her.

I'd encourage you to read the articles to the right of the screen and also to join other discussions.  There is a wealth of experience here and we help one another through these tough times.

I am reading through the material and read stop walking on egg shells which described her very accurately.

If you had the chance to work on having a relationship with her, would you want to try again?

Honestly, I think it is not possible in her current condition. I tried for a whole month. I get NOTHING and I have to give, give, give, swallow my emotions, and do whatever she wants. I feel she is either intentionally or unintentionally manipulative and abuses my kindness to a huge degree. It is a 100:1 relationship and I don't feel she is able/wanting/serious about getting better.
Even if I never saw her again but she resumed "normal" life, I would be happy with that. If she was normal and in an equal giving relationship, yes. But last BPD doctor I went to for myself, he said that is a fantasy and it will never happen.

I also thought that it has be really tough to be r/s for her when she's suicidal where was family when this was going on? Were they supporting her?

Her mom (who is a school psychologist btw) was apparently very abusive to her when she was a child, beating her often. She doesn't speak to her. Her dad went along with the abuse of her mom so he stays on mom's good side. I finally got her to go to her dad's but he had more difficulty than me in talking with her. He was in denial that her daughter has problems for a while. Now, for the most part, just cries. If there is slightest real or received "inconvenience" she leaves or starts cutting herself, etc.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Maniplus,

Have there been any developments?  How are you feeling at present?

Love and light x

[Maniplus]

Thanks for checking in.

Developments. Had not heard from her for 2 weeks. She called me today. I was not near my phone when she called, and I had 15 missed calls from her in matter of 10 minutes. Apparently she called her dad too and ask for rent money.

I had texted her an article about how working in adult industry with depression or mental illness multiplies issues and makes things worst. In prior week, she told me she has auditioned for strip club and she went to a strip dance class.  

She said:
It's not like I have a choice. You are not here but yet you want to know my intimate details. My dad told me he will pay rent and he hasn't. And you are not nearby. Everyone around me just sucks, this is why I'm in this situation.

She started at a fairly normal voice and was very upset by the end of it, and she hung up. I didn't even get a word in.

Then a short text convo:

Me: I would be upset too if what you were saying was true. You are choosing to strip and you are choosing to not take money from me or live with your dad for free. All I have asked for is to make sure you are getting treatment.
I have paid your rent before, I have paid your credit cards, I have helped. I don't need to be in your city to help. But I do need to be treated nicely and like a job or anything else, there are conditions. I want to speak to your therapist.

Her: You have no idea what you are talking about and I'm not even stripping
I called you to tell you to shut the f*** up and stop. You're a manipulative liar and you only make me feel worse
Yes yes I owe you 4K
I owe lots of people lots of things
None of which I can pay back atm

Me: Ok

So that's the development  

[once removed]

wow. thats a heavy load for a first relationship. and with the risk of her committing suicide... .

it sounds like you love her very much, and it pains you greatly to watch her struggle; you want to help any way you can.

He said... .I may not even be the best person to help her

what did you think about what that therapist said? are you still seeing him?

[Maniplus]

it sounds like you love her very much, and it pains you greatly to watch her struggle; you want to help any way you can.
what did you think about what that therapist said? are you still seeing him?

I suffered a lot but now I have accepted it for what it is. Some people are born with a physical illness, some get injured later in life. This, is no different, yes, I wish she could live a better life and with me, per my therapist, that is just a fantasy at this this point.

Therapist suggested I block her and that there are plenty of women who would appreciate and return kindness. I only saw him once. He advised to return to him if i find myself in similar situations. He said if we see you pursuing BPD type women because others "are boring", then we need to do some work.

[once removed]

did you decide to block her? what do you want to do?

[Maniplus]

did you decide to block her? what do you want to do?

I have not blocked her but I have lost hope. I do think the best thing for ME would be to block her but I'm thinking maybe she will call me before she does something really stupid (suicide) or when she hits rock bottom and wants to change. I would feel bad if she made that call and I wasn't able to pick up.

The good thing is her father seems to be finally understanding the scope of her condition  and is trying to get in touch with her and help. For the longest time, he was in denial.

I am not sure if his efforts will be successful but hey anyone trying to get her into treatment and in a better condition is a good thing.

I am helping him any way I can. We have agreed to not give her any more money without conditions.

The thing is if you don't do exactly what she wants and when she wants it, she then thinks you are the enemy, manipulative, liar and blocks you / doesn't take your call. So dad has to walk a very fine line and I don't think he can do it, I couldn't.

It a ridiculously difficult maze and we can't even find the entrance to the maze... .

[Harley Quinn]

Do you plan to continue being involved in supporting her from the position of a friend?  How do you see things in the future?

It a ridiculously difficult maze and we can't even find the entrance to the maze... .

We have an article here that springs to mind which I believe both yourself and her father will find informative and helpful.  Perhaps you could print it out for him?  It might be a good idea to suggest he become a member here and post for support too if he plans to be supportive of her.  On the Bettering board he can learn practical use of the Tools and work through situations with others doing the same.

Here's the article:

What it takes

I refer to this article often as it says it like it is and doesn't sugar coat the fact that caring for a sufferer is hard work and requires a lot of effort, not only in regards to supporting the pwBPD, but also work on ourselves to keep ourselves emotionally healthy and up to the task.  It's important to know these things at the outset.  I sure wish I'd read this before I did.  I hope you both find it helpful.  Let me know your thoughts after reading it.

Love and light x   

[Maniplus]

Do you plan to continue being involved in supporting her from the position of a friend?  How do you see things in the future?

Thanks. I just sent the article to her Dad. I have suggested multiples times for him to buy the two books (stop walking on eggshells), however, he hasn't yet.

He keeps wanting to "have a talk" with her and I know from first hand experience, that is not going to work.

I frankly think her mental illness should have been addressed a long time ago. By the time I got to her, it was already pretty bad and basically out of control.

I don't see things improving and I don't know how I can help. She has blocked me (nothing new there) but every once in a while calls or texts.

My guess is she will end up in adult industry, a drug addict, or dead.

If she reaches out to me and wants my help with treatment, finding therapist, working through insurance, finding a in-patient treatment center, I have told her many times I am 100% available to help.

But if I actually start doing it, it "stresses" her out.

I think we are talking about a very low functioning pwBPD here. She used to be high functioning and I just don't see a way out for her.

She doesn't listen or talk to anyone, she doesn't take treatment seriously, her financials are completely screwed, no jobs, no school, she is likely to be prostituting (although I don't know this for a fact).

It is impossible to help someone in a ditch when they refuse to take your or ANY rope.

I don't mean to be negative, I think I'm just being realistic. A month ago, I was very optimistic. It's a sad situation... and I hate to blame the parents but they should have taken action long long time ago when they could.

[once removed]

But if I actually start doing it, it "stresses" her out.

hi Maniplus,

i think that if you want to help her, either as a romantic partner or a friend, it would be a good idea to post on the Bettering board, and learn the tools there. most of "how to help" someone with BPD is not intuitive.

what do you think?

[Maniplus]

I texted her from my other number yesterday:

Me: Hi, How are you? I'm here for you if you need anything. Love <3

Her: I'm not good. I'm 2 months behind on rent. You say you won't help me unless you can talk to my therapist but that's simply not possible and not in my control.

Her: You're not my guardian nor my therapists patient. Pretending to be there for me isn't helpful and you're not. You break up with me, leave, and say you don't
want to be friends with someone who's not independent. [I have not idea what she is referring to her. I never asked her to be independent, wonder if she is talking about her pimp here if she has one? I had also said I cannot hang out with you but I can still help in many ways]

Her: I'm not independent and I don't have the energy for you to ___ on me for trying to scramble together money any way I can [I had sent her an article about how going into adult industry (porn, stripping) with a mental illness makes things worst].

Her: And I don't trust you. Stop demanding i trust you. I'll pay you back your money when I can. Right now I can't sorry

Me: I'm not messaging you to get my money back. I don't care about that. What I care about is you.
I think you are so smart, so witty, so beautiful, and you deserve a better life love.

Me: I talked to your doctor, they said the patient (you) can call them and just give them my name and they can authorize me. Very simple love.

Me:  Your dad cares about you, I care about you. You need to let go and trust me, your dad, or somebody, anybody who really wants the best for you.

Her: Talking to my therapist is different from being an authorized person on my Acct. My therapist won't talk to you
And what you are asking for--no. You won't get access to my medical records
You're blocked. Stop manipulating me

---
Her dad called me yesterday too and he was telling me how "women are." I still don't think he gets it despite sending him this website, bunch of articles on BPD, and two books... .

I will try looking on better forum, if there is something specific you want me to look at, please let me know.

[once removed]

hi Maniplus,

ive moved your thread to the Bettering board. lets walk some of this through... .

this is a complicated situation. the two of you are ex lovers, she has a lot going on in her personal life, you want to help her, but shes having a difficult time trusting you, and maybe anyone.

to complicate matters further, shes blocked communication, so its probably best to give her space, at least for now. some of this may be reversible, it may not be, but right now she feels like any effort on your end is manipulation.

Her: You're not my guardian nor my therapists patient. Pretending to be there for me isn't helpful and you're not. You break up with me, leave, and say you don't
want to be friends with someone who's not independent.

this speaks to the complicated nature of what youre trying to navigate, as an ex lover. its going to be important to determine in what capacity you want to help her, if at all. do you want to get back together? do you have romantic feelings? do you want to be friends and help her as a friend? each of those paths and the steps to take is going to look somewhat different. for instance, if you want to help her as a friend, compliments like "smart, witty, beautiful, deserve a better life", while well meaning, may confuse things.

Her: And I don't trust you. Stop demanding i trust you. I'll pay you back your money when I can. Right now I can't sorry

the money is a sore spot for her. she may feel that your efforts to help her are really about getting your money back. if you want to help her, it may send mixed signals to offer to help her, while also hoping she will pay you back.

Me: I'm not messaging you to get my money back. I don't care about that. What I care about is you.
I think you are so smart, so witty, so beautiful, and you deserve a better life love.

at the heart of BPD is low self esteem. someone with traits of this disorder struggles mightily in terms of how they see themselves, and has a great deal of trouble trusting that anyone else sees them differently. right now, there is no trust, and telling her you care about her and that shes beautiful, while well meaning, will not come off as sincere. it may come off as condescending, or even suspicious.

ill give you an example. i have a funny looking nose. i dont hate it. maybe someone even finds it endearing. but its a funny looking nose. so if someone came up to me and started telling me how beautiful or attractive my nose is, im not going to say "hey thanks", im going to wonder what theyre up to. it would be out of place and not sound sincere.

Me:  Your dad cares about you, I care about you. You need to let go and trust me, your dad, or somebody, anybody who really wants the best for you.

this ("you need to do this") is stated, and will be taken as a demand. we have to build trust with actions and consistency over time. telling someone to let go and trust us, if anything, will achieve the opposite, it feels pushy, like someone is trying to get something out of us.

shes clear about not wanting you to have access to her medical records. i would let this go. there are other, more effective ways to build trust and help her.

does this make sense?

did she block you after the last conversation? were those the last things said?

[Maniplus]

this speaks to the complicated nature of what youre trying to navigate, as an ex lover. its going to be important to determine in what capacity you want to help her, if at all. do you want to get back together? do you have romantic feelings? do you want to be friends and help her as a friend?

I still do have feeling for her; however, at the root of this is not wanting to see her spiral down. If my brother, sister, my neighbor was in a ditch, I would want to help. I'm afraid the path she is going on right now has no good options at the end of it, I reach out to her to tell her / show her there are other paths and that there are people that care for her and that she has options.

the money is a sore spot for her. she may feel that your efforts to help her are really about getting your money back. if you want to help her, it may send mixed signals to offer to help her, while also hoping she will pay you back.

I really don't care if i ever get the money back. I use a rule I learned many years ago that always lend someone the amount that you are fully comfortable losing because most likely you will.

telling her you care about her and that shes beautiful, while well meaning, will not come off as sincere. it may come off as condescending, or even suspicious.

I get it, but I sincerely mean it. In depression, it is advised to remind the depressed person that you are there and send them positive things. I understand because there is no trust and she sees herself differently, she doesn't believe and potentially makes her feel bad but whats the other option?

shes clear about not wanting you to have access to her medical records. i would let this go. there are other, more effective ways to build trust and help her.

So this thing with medical records started because another therapist told me I should not financially support her unless she is taking treatment seriously and going to her appointments, etc. She suggested i get authorized so I can keep her accountable.

Frankly, she has not asked me for money recently knowing what I have required in order to give it. But she has asked her dad.

did she block you after the last conversation? were those the last things said?

I have no way of knowing if she blocked me or not, those were the last things she said. Its common where she disappears for a week or two and then i may hear from her.

I guess the best is to do nothing and give her space. The thing is I very much don't think that will "help" as she is going down a rabbit hole with this adult thing, I would not be surprised if she is taking money for sex, etc etc. At some point, she will be a completely lost cause and too deep to get out. That's how I feel at least.

One therapist did say she needs to hit rock bottom herself and then reach out for help, if she ever does. Also that her rock bottom and what I think her rock bottom is could be completely different things.

By the way, I really appreciate you taking the time to break down her side, it made perfect sense and I understood her a lot better. 

[Maniplus]

Me: ok I get you don't want to authorize me. fine. Other than money, is there anything I can help with?

Whatever you are doing now for money, are you doing anything you don't want to be doing / forced to do? are you safe?

Her:
Stop trying to get me to sell you my personal data. Do that. Just STOP

Me:
I'm sorry, I don't mean to upset you. I just want to make sure you are ok. i will stop texting you : /

[once removed]

I still do have feeling for her; however, at the root of this is not wanting to see her spiral down. If my brother, sister, my neighbor was in a ditch, I would want to help. I'm afraid the path she is going on right now has no good options at the end of it, I reach out to her to tell her / show her there are other paths and that there are people that care for her and that she has options.

i think its a noble quality that you care for her, or anyone, and wouldnt want to see her spiral down. i believe in helping others too.

one thing that ive learned is that theres a fine line between supporting someone, and imposing what i think is best for them. its easy to mix the two. sometimes we have to listen (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy), hear someone, and try to step into their shoes, hear what kind of support they are really asking for, and then assess to what extent we can give. sometimes all a person is asking for is an ear.

I really don't care if i ever get the money back. I use a rule I learned many years ago that always lend someone the amount that you are fully comfortable losing because most likely you will.

i think thats a good rule. she seems to be under the impression that you want the money back though, and thats going to color how she sees your efforts to help her.

I get it, but I sincerely mean it. In depression, it is advised to remind the depressed person that you are there and send them positive things.
... .
whats the other option?

depression is a good example. words, for example, wont cure someone elses depression. at the end of the day, nothing will. but there are ways to support a depressed person. letting a depressed person know that youre there is good (as is showing it through our actions). but telling them, for example, to cheer up, that depression is a choice, to snap out of it, that things arent that bad, that they have to help themselves, etc, all of those are examples that experts advise against in trying to support a depressed person. its not dissimilar when it comes to trying to support someone with BPD, or anyone, really. our efforts, though well intentioned, may be invalidating.

let her feelings about herself be her feelings about herself. sometimes just having a friend who respects us as we are can positively influence how we feel about ourselves.

So this thing with medical records started because another therapist told me I should not financially support her unless she is taking treatment seriously and going to her appointments, etc. She suggested i get authorized so I can keep her accountable.

keeping her accountable is by and large the role of a family member. an ex boyfriend, or even a good friend is not in much position to take on this role. if i had a brother and he were homeless, i would at least consider taking him into my home, with boundaries. if i were a teacher, and i knew a student was homeless, it really wouldnt be my place to take them into my home; boundaries could get blurred very quickly. i would suggest financially supporting her to the extent that you can, or the extent you are willing, or dont.

Also that her rock bottom and what I think her rock bottom is could be completely different things.

i agree. i think when we love someone and want to support them, we have to be careful not to substitute their vision with ours.

any update?

[Maniplus]

try to step into their shoes, hear what kind of support they are really asking for, and then assess to what extent we can give. sometimes all a person is asking for is an ear.

Thank you for the link, I will need to read it a few times to really sink in.

The thing is I feel, and maybe wrongly, that she is in clear and imminent danger, like when a person is holding a gun to their head thinking its not loaded but you know its loaded. It is very difficult to try to put yourself in their shoes and show empathy, be an active listener, to gain perspective, etc etc.

Doing that requires a huge trust in the process when everything in my bones is telling me to scream and jump in and take the gun away from them.

I would most certainly fail the first listed task of Empathy "Set Aside Personal Beliefs, Concerns and Agenda" - I do have a personal belief that firing a loaded gun to ones head is NOT good, I do have a concern that they are going to pull it, and my agenda is to stop this.

Which is probably why our relationship has deteriorated as she seems to consistently pick the worst decision for her (i.e. I'd make therapist appointment, pay for it, even show up to driver her there, and she would decide to not go).

The fact that she is self-harming, binge eating, now dabbling in adult industry are all red alerts.

i think thats a good rule. she seems to be under the impression that you want the money back though, and thats going to color how she sees your efforts to help her.

Well, there are only so many ways I can tell her that I don't want the money. Even though she asked me, I never took a note or receipt from her for the money, and I have never brought it up, and every time she has, I have said, I don't care about the money.

let her feelings about herself be her feelings about herself. sometimes just having a friend who respects us as we are can positively influence how we feel about ourselves.

This is SO hard to do for me. This may legitimately be the reason why I'm not the right person for this because in my own life, I'm a go-getter, I believe that people CAN improve their lives, that we are not stuck with what we were given, that despite all the bad, life is good.

This is probably also why her situation bothers me SO much. Its such a 180 of everything I stand for that I feel I must make it right.

I feel I keep giving her really easy routes and she still doesn't choose them (just show up to therapy and I will pay your rent, instead she does stripping or escorting or whatever).

She has said now few times that she is "survivor mode now and she has to do whatever she can to make money."  

Why does she not pick the better / easier route ?

keeping her accountable is by and large the role of a family member.

This is very true and I wish it was the case. I got her and her dad talking again a while back. I also tried to educate the dad as much as possible. Last conversation I had with him, he basically said he is not going to reach out to her because its pointless, even though its hard for him, he is going to wait until she decides to reach out to him.

While I admire his self-restraint, a) situation is getting worst by day b) she doesn't really respect him / thinks of him as capable c) they didn't even normally talk much

Her mom has a mental disorder too according to her and most likely the cause of her childhood trauma.
She does have a brother and I have not reach out to him. I asked her dad and it seemed dad doesn't talk to him either.  

i think when we love someone and want to support them, we have to be careful not to substitute their vision with ours.

This is a very hard thing to do when one vision is being a drug addict and other vision is living a normal life.

I know she is not living her vision either. She has very high expectations of herself and is just disappointed that she is no where near there and thinks she will never get there.

any update?

After the last exchange which I posted last, I texted her:

Hey, I just worry about you. Should I not? Do you have things under control? Going to another state for a weekend conference. Even if I'm not there, I can help in many ways. Feel free to reach out.

No response yet.

I know I'm pushing back against some of your suggestions even though I know you are most likely right. Part of me is trying to deny the reality and I'm hoping for a shortcut.

I wish someone capable of doing all of this could take over. And if someone has, I wish she could let me know. I legitimately don't sleep well at night since this started.as my mind is thinking of a "solution."  

[Bnonymous]

I feel I keep giving her really easy routes and she still doesn't choose them (just show up to therapy and I will pay your rent, instead she does stripping or escorting or whatever).

She has said now few times that she is "survivor mode now and she has to do whatever she can to make money."  

Why does she not pick the better / easier route ?

Hi Maniplus,

It might not feel like the better/easier route to her.

People can readily see the private and personal natures of our bodies and how damaging it can be to feel pressured to share them out of desperation, e.g. for money. But it can be harder to recognise that the mind is private and personal too and that it can also feel damaging to feel pressured to share that in ways we're not comfortable with. She might feel that, for her, at this point in time, the better/easier route is to share her body rather than her mind.

I totally understand that you are a person who knows her and cares about her and wants the best for her, and I appreciate that this is totally different from a client in the adult industries. But I do wonder if she might feel that there are parallels? At present, it sounds as though she isn't comfortable with the idea of sharing her treatment journey with you by giving you permission to talk to her therapist and/or check if she attends appointments. But she needs money and she knows that you will give it to her on the condition that she does something which she doesn't appear to feel comfortable with. Do you think that one situation might trigger her feelings from the other?

I realise that might be hard to hear, but it's worth giving some thought to (even if you ultimately decide you don't agree with me on this).

I would suggest respecting her boundaries and then deciding on your own.

She has said she won't authorise you to speak with her therapist about her treatment - I would take her at her word there and not pressure her to change her mind. If she sees you respecting her wishes and willing to take things at her pace, it might help build trust to a level where she might then freely share these things with you at a later point. But I think, for it to help her feel safe, free, and in control, that sharing would need to be on her own terms, in her own time, and free from pressure and financial incentive.

That then leaves you to make decisions about your own boundaries (she sets hers; you set yours). Are you willing to help her financially if she doesn't meet that condition you set? If so, then do that. If not, that's your right and your choice, but I would say simply don't give her the money if you're not willing to do so - I wouldn't keep reminding her that you would give her the money if things were different, as I think that is likely to make her feel pressured and withdraw from you further.

Regarding the rest of your post, I sympathise. Standing back while someone we loves puts themselves in danger and hurts themselves is really really hard and very frightening. But often it is all we can do. They are responsible for their own lives and their own choices, even when their choices seem to us to be destructive ones. All we can do is be consistently there to listen and, in that way, we can offer a bit of stability amongst the chaos. It's not much, but it's something.

[once removed]

Maniplus, i would recommend giving her some space.

these text exchanges, while well intentioned, are pretty pushy, and it sounds like shes on her heels about it. it wont help her, or you, if you try to force an approach that shes increasingly shutting down.

I know I'm pushing back against some of your suggestions even though I know you are most likely right. Part of me is trying to deny the reality and I'm hoping for a shortcut.

you are in a position where you can be a good friend, and lend her some support, and that can help her, but i think letting go of the agenda (outcome), and respecting her boundaries would be a more successful approach.

[juju2]

wow, Maniplus.   You are on the roller coaster ride.   You are in the best place, this is an accepting group of wise friends.

One thing I did learn, going thru the roller coaster, is he has a Higher Power, and it's not me.  I will be supportive, and i will take the very best care of myself.
before I got on the roller coaster, he went thru a bottom, addiction, homelessness, more.  Without hitting bottom, I doubt very much he would be high functioning, as he is now... .

I wasn't there then, I didn't have to see it.

I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and i can't cure it... .

Being in this type of r/s, and all of these relationships are different, and they have similarities... .

we can learn from the experiences of others here.

Take very good care of you.   the only person i can change is me.
j

[Maniplus]

Thank you so so much for your inputs and for hearing me. For the most part, I didn't have anyone to tell this to   

I do want to clarify that her not replying is not really something new. Even when I am with her and she gets a text, she is super moody about replying back. There has been times where she doesn't reply to me 10 times, then replies.

When I talked to her dad, he told me she called him asking for rent money as if she had forgotten that they had the exact same conversation few days before. He said, "she had forgotten we talked about this already."

The general consensus seems to be for me to not contact her and let her hit rock bottom / do whatever she feels like it and only interact if she reaches out?

If so, this relieves me of some actual day to day pressure by not being involved but not knowing her status does make me anxious and worried. 

I guess there is no way to know for sure which path is better, my gut feeling tells me if I interfere, maybe I could improve some things or lead her on a different path, but as you mentioned, interactive with pwBPD is not always intuitive.

Bottom line, there are no good options here.

[once removed]

The general consensus seems to be for me to not contact her and let her hit rock bottom / do whatever she feels like it and only interact if she reaches out?

im not sure this is the consensus. i think the consensus is more along the lines of dont push, give her some space (from the pushing) for right now, and if you want to be involved in helping her, change your approach; dont try to save, rescue, or impose on her... .just be a supportive friend, and listen. if you want to financially support her, just give what you can, with no strings attached.

Bottom line, there are no good options here.

sure there are. people with traits of this disorder are most likely to recover when there is a strong, loving, but firm rock in their lives. it just may mean a new way of going about that. have you read this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

it breaks down the appropriate boundaries between what friends can do, vs what family can do, how we can help, how we can make things worse, and challenges us to think about what our motivations are.

[Maniplus]

While I haven't heard from her, her dad texted me last week to call ASAP.

He then told me she went to a mental facility - which I thought was great and exactly what she needed.

Her dad told me to speak to her mom, when I called, it turned out, my ex had locked herself in her apartment, and taken 30 xanax pills. Thankfully, a friend calls the police 5150, landlord shows up, they knock on the door, and eventually break in finding her unconscious with empty pill bottles, and dirty razors around her bed.

She gets taken to ER, and then for the 72 hour hold.

She comes out after the 72 hours despite her parents either trying to keep her there or find an alternate residential treatment facility.

I spoke to her mom at length and bought them copies of
- Get me out of here
- Stop walking on eggshells
- Family Guide for BPD

And I told them to give a copy of Get me out of here to her as well

I sent her a text message afterwards saying "Hey, please call me"
She called me and said "Do you know what happened?"
I said "I'm not sure... tell me what happened"
She said "What do you know?"
I said "I want to hear from you what happened"
and then she hung up.

I have been listening to Jordan Peterson talking about leaving a situation like this is not cruelty but wisdom and that it is not possible to help someone who does not want or take your help.

Do we all agree that I have done everything I could and equipped her parents with right books (and told them about this website), and as heart breaking as it is, I should make peace with this reality and move on?

[MyBPD_friend]

Wow Maniplus,
I  read everything here and relate to all that.

I  don't want to go into my details,  my decision was writing a last goodbye letter to her and get a new phone number.

When things get too painful it's better to step back and get ill yourself.

I  never heared from her  - I still think of her but it's getting less.

[once removed]

Do we all agree
... .
as heart breaking as it is, I should make peace with this reality and move on?

i think this is a very personal decision. is it what you want to do?

[Maniplus]

i think this is a very personal decision. is it what you want to do?

No, what I want is for her to seek treatment. And get well.

But it doesn't matter what I want.

She has complained about money a lot and being behind on rent.

I offered her that I will cover all her expenses if she goes to treatment. She has flatly declined that.

She seemed more open to having me pay her for sexual favors than me paying her treatment. That seemed to be her counter offer which I declined.

Her mom has also gotten the Ok from insurance to cover majority of her residential treatment (her attempting an actual suicide seemed to have really helped with insurance... .)

But it takes two to tango and I can't just be here feeling out of control, anxious, and suffering while she keeps going down another path and mostly ignoring me.

[Maniplus]

Wow Maniplus,
I  read everything here and relate to all that.

I  don't want to go into my details,  my decision was writing a last goodbye letter to her and get a new phone number.

When things get too painful it's better to step back and get ill yourself.

I  never heared from her  - I still think of her but it's getting less.

I'm sorry about your experience. It's something no one should have to experience honestly. It is painful on so many levels. It sounds like you made the right decision for you and have moved on. I wish your girl the best and hope she finds her way.

[once removed]

a few months ago, we discussed just being a friend.

a good friend without an agenda, who occasionally just listens if she wants to talk. nothing less, nothing more.

what do you think about that approach?