Trying to make sense of this

[Our abuse recovery guide]

My son just recently married his girlfriend who suffers from BPD and Bipolar 1 disorder. They lived in our home for over a year, before leaving to their own place. She is extremely jealous of my daughter and his baby mama. I've been taking care of my grand child since the beginning of this year. At first I thought it was because my son just didn't want to see or talk to his baby mama after the custody battle. Which I understood and told him I'd do the pick up and drop off for a while. Well then I find out it's because his now wife was the reason, because she didn't want him to communicate with her much less be anywhere next to her. I told the BOTH I will not be doing this anymore and that it's his responsibility not mine to take care of his daughter. I said this 3 days before the wedding and the reason for that call was, because she was very disrespectful to me over something to do with my daughter. My son will be taking over his responsibility of his daughter soon. However, because of the jealous she has for the baby mama I'm afraid she will not allow him to go get her. I'm done with taking care of his responsibility and I'm trying to show some tough love where he is concerned. My question is what do I do if she does control him picking up his daughter. She can not stand him to even talk much less be around the baby mama. Also she is not taking medication for her Bipolar disorder and not seeking talk therapy for her BPD or Bipolar basically doing nothing! She said she can take care of it herself by talking to herself. They both live with her grandparents and her grandpa said she hasn't had an episode since they moved in. Which was back in August she was having episode after episode when they were living on their own. She also claims to be sick when it's time for his weekends and demands I not bring his daughter over due to her weak immune system because she has anemia. Which is a crock of crap because I have anemia and Rheumatoid Arthritis so if anyone has an weak immune system it's me and I have been taking care of my grand daughter since January of this year.
Don't I deserve a break being I'm the grandma and not the parent? How do I deal with this when she's so freaking controlling to the point he'll do whatever she wants to keep her happy? 

[Mickey47]

My son just recently married his girlfriend who suffers from BPD and Bipolar 1 disorder. They lived in our home for over a year, before leaving to their own place. She is extremely jealous of my daughter and his baby mama. I've been taking care of my grand child since the beginning of this year. At first I thought it was because my son just didn't want to see or talk to his baby mama after the custody battle. Which I understood and told him I'd do the pick up and drop off for a while. Well then I find out it's because his now wife was the reason, because she didn't want him to communicate with her much less be anywhere next to her. I told the BOTH I will not be doing this anymore and that it's his responsibility not mine to take care of his daughter. I said this 3 days before the wedding and the reason for that call was, because she was very disrespectful to me over something to do with my daughter. My son will be taking over his responsibility of his daughter soon. However, because of the jealous she has for the baby mama I'm afraid she will not allow him to go get her. I'm done with taking care of his responsibility and I'm trying to show some tough love where he is concerned. My question is what do I do if she does control him picking up his daughter. She can not stand him to even talk much less be around the baby mama. Also she is not taking medication for her Bipolar disorder and not seeking talk therapy for her BPD or Bipolar basically doing nothing! She said she can take care of it herself by talking to herself. They both live with her grandparents and her grandpa said she hasn't had an episode since they moved in. Which was back in August she was having episode after episode when they were living on their own. She also claims to be sick when it's time for his weekends and demands I not bring his daughter over due to her weak immune system because she has anemia. Which is a crock of crap because I have anemia and Rheumatoid Arthritis so if anyone has an weak immune system it's me and I have been taking care of my grand daughter since January of this year.
Don't I deserve a break being I'm the grandma and not the parent? How do I deal with this when she's so freaking controlling to the point he'll do whatever she wants to keep her happy? 

[Notwendy]

I am sorry for your situation. I will say this- with the best of intentions: it is a tough situation but it may take this kind of terrible choice on the part of your son to make a decision- he either stands up to his wife for his role as a father, or chooses his wife over the child. In that case, he isn't the kind of parent this child needs. This is just my own opinion from dealing with a BPD mother. There may be others that suit you. It's important to consider any opinions and make the best choice you would like to make. The safety of the child is the most important consideration.

It isn't uncommon for the pwBPD to put their partner in the uncomfortable situation to choose the BPD partner or a loved one. There are many sad stories from family members whose relationships with their loved ones were broken by this kind of choice. Mothers who are grieving the loss of contact with their sons and grandchildren. My own story is that this happened to me, but fortunately as an adult, when my BPD mother was angry at me and intervened in my relationship with my father.

Before that, I never imagined a parent would sever ties to a child, or his own mother, or family but I learned that this is the choice my father decided he had to make. Now, I believe it can happen. The alternative would be to stand up to my BPD mother for his right to have a relationship with his family members. It would not have made her happy, but it would have been a boundary and boundaries are important in relationships and hard to keep in a relationship with a pwBPD.

"He'll do anything to keep her happy" is not the wife's fault, but your son's fault. ( she may be difficult, but he has the choice and makes the choice)  I know your part has been to be concerned for the child, but as long as you do the pick up, you also enable your son to not face this boundary.

It is important to place the safety of the child first. I assume if your son does not pick up his child, she is safe with her mother- so there isn't harm to her by leaving her ( she may be upset but that's on her dad- she's safe ) If the child is not picked up, then I imagine custody will be renegotiated  and he may lose custody. Natural consequences are often good teachers. When you pick up the child, you keep your son from facing this lesson.

The other possibility is that- if he has no alternative- he will decide to step up to the plate and be a father. But he won't have the opportunity to decide this if you pick up the child for him.

I know this is  tough as you are the grandparent and you love your grandchild. If custody is renegotiated, you may have input since you are caring for the child. I would be documenting the care you do- again, I am not a lawyer but there might be some kind of shared arrangement with you and the baby mama to look into if your son doesn't step up. Maybe you could have the child on some weekends. I am guessing here, but you are a stable and invested family member. Your son may not be. Your son may also consider hiring a reliable sitter to pick up the child, which would be fulfilling his responsibility while avoiding the baby mama.

When two people share a child, contact between them is inevitable. BPD wife needs to accept this even if she doesn't like it. She may also need to make a choice to accept it or not ( and leave) but this is her choice to make.

I think you are on the right track grandpa. It's tough love to step back, but you know how to step up  and be a dad and a grandpa.  Now it may be your son's turn to choose to do this.  Yes, you do deserve to take a break from parenting if you want to. You did your job as a dad. Your son  became a father and now it is his turn to be the dad to his daughter- if he chooses to be.

[Harri]

Hi Mickey47 and welcome.

Do you want a relationship with your grandchild?  If you do, I would focus on what you can do and what you want when it comes to time spent with the baby.  Your son will have to figure things out on his own when it comes to setting priorities with his wife vs. being a father.  Notwendy is right on that.

So what do you want?  Do you think you can let go of trying to save your son and focus on that?  I know it is not easy and there is no pain free option here unfortunately.  But you can take care of you and try to have your own relationship with that precious baby.  How is your relationship with the mother?

[Mickey47]

To NotWendy and Harri

Thank you for replying and yes I have a good relationship with the baby mama. She has already told me I can see my grand daughter anytime I want. My son knows I have a good relationship with her, because he knows the type of mother and person I am. He knows I’m a loving mother and person and I try to get along with everyone. I try very hard with his wife to get along with her. I want to have a good mother in law/daughter in law relationship with her.

However, I will NOT put up with her disrespect of me. I did a lot for his wife when they were dating, because she told me she had a horrible abusive childhood with her mother. So I tried to be supportive and caring she used it to her advantage to manipulate the situation to what she wanted. And because I didn’t want to lose my son I put up with a lot of what people tell me was abuse to me. That his wife abused me as well as my son. I don’t understand why he married her knowing that they got into physical fights and he would have to threaten her that he’d call the police if she didn’t stop hitting him.

She’d stop and leave him alone. However I did not know all this was going on until after they moved out of my home. His best friend came and told me everything that had been going on, because he was actually concerned for his well being. However we can’t make him leave her unless he wants to. He wasn’t going to be the best man at the wedding at first, because he didn’t agree with it. I told him we are going to support him in his decision even though we don’t agree or like it. He is my son and I love him and want him to know no matter what we are here for him.

I feel like he is going to need that in the long run. She is not on any medication and refuses to get on any. So I know the day will come when she does blow he’ll need a safe place to come.

So my question is this is it normal with BPD for the person to be insanely jealous? Is it normal for them to try to isolate the one without BPD from his family. Is it normal for them to try to cause fights and make stuff up just cause problems? I mean my daughter is my son’s sister not a step sister but his biological sister. Is it normal for someone with BPD to be insanely jealous of a sibling?

My daughter heard them fighting one time, because her bedroom window is close to where they stayed. She heard my son say to his then girlfriend now wife. That she was the one who was paranoid he was going to have sex with his own sister. He told his girlfriend she was sick and how could she think that way about him. He would NEVER do anything of the sort! That’s my sister! Apparently they had been fighting about him talking and going around his sister too much. Also he isn’t allowed to watch movies or play video games with females in it. She goes crazy even cartoon characters if it’s a female she’ll lose it on him and start screaming “you think she’s prettier than me” a cartoon character for crying out loud! Also she contacted his best friend asking if he thought my son’s sister was prettier than her. And this was just a few months ago. I mean is that normal with people who have BPD. Oh and she was diagnosed with BPD and Bipolar 1 back in June of this year. Is there anything I can say or do to get this woman to understand she doesn’t need to be jealous of my daughter or the baby mama? Or should I just do like I said I was going to do and just send my son a text saying “okay here’s baby mamas address to go get your daughter for your weekends” and then just sit back and see what happens?

I’m so sorry this is so long!

[Harri]

Hi Mickey.  Your post is not too long.  Write as much as you need to!   

I think it is fairly common for people with BPD to feel jealous or threatened by other people.  We actually hear about it a lot on the boards though each person with BPD is different.  With 5 of 9 criteria needed for a diagnosis there are something like 256 possible permutations and then add in co-morbitities like BiPolar and it can get very complicated.

When someone is dysregulated it is almost impossible to reason with them and get them to see logic and reason.  That happens even if someone does not have BPD, but with BPD it is even harder.  BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation with an underlying core feeling of shame and fear of abandonment.  How those present can be quite different from person to person. 

You are right that being there for your son is very important.  It is very hard to be in his position and when he (hopefully soon) does see what is going on he will need to be able to lean on you.  What you can do is learn communication strategies that will help *you* and in turn can lessen some of the conflict.  You can also learn about boundaries and learn about the disorder so you can protect yourself and help support your son. 

A good place to start is here: 

Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating  I am suggesting this article because of your question regarding what  you can say about her being so jealous.  People with BPD are highly sensitive and often what we say invalidates and further triggers them even when that is the last thing we are trying to do.  So if she says "I am jealous of sister", rather than say there is no need to feel that way (which invalidates their feelings and feelings are always valid) you say "It must be very difficult feeling that way.  I know it would hurt me a great deal if I thought that or felt that way".  Doing this can help diffuse the situation or at least not make it worse.

As for how to get her to see?  I am not sure you can to be honest.  YOu can't change her and neither can your son.  What you can do and what your son can do is stop behaving in ways that make things worse or contribute to the dysfunction - like I described above with the validation example.  We have other tools that can also help but I do not want to give you too many links all at once.

I will recommend that you read this (see below), several times as there is a ton of important information in there that can help protect you and keep you out of the dram so you can focus on what is important:  self-care, your grandchild and being strong enough to support your son.
Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle

As for sending your son the text with the address, I would say stop stepping in and rescuing your son especially is he is safe with bio-mom and she is stable.  And yes, wait and see what happens and remember about the drama triangle and validation.  It works for people who are not BPD as well.

[Mickey47]

Thank you so much for the link, because I do want to learn as much as possible. Knowledge is power. I’m only sending the address because he doesn’t know where the baby mama lives anymore, because during the time of me taking care of it for him. She moved so that’s the only thing I’m doing. Sending the address where he can go pick up his daughter and that’s all I’m doing. That has been extremely hard for me to do LET GO of constantly stepping in as you said and doing for him. My sister has actually told me many times to do this or he’ll never take it on for himself. You have to just push it on him and let him make that decision and if he decides to do what makes his wife happy well then he’ll have to pay the consequences for his actions.
You know I have been enabling him and it stops now! I’m just going to send him the address and sit back and watch what happens. Because baby mama will tell me what takes place. Plus if I want to see my grand daughter all I have to do is text or call and let her know when. I can go get her anytime and I will, because he did threaten me one time he’d take my visits away if I didn’t continue to do what I’d been doing. Now mind you this was through text. So later on I found out it was actually his wife texting me and threatening me. Because he came by to see me after that after work one day and I jumped his butt. Asking who the hell he thought he was threatening me after everything I’ve done. He had no clue what I was talking about and I showed him the text and he said oh that um well I was just in a bad mood I didn’t mean it. That’s when I knew for a fact she had sent the text. She does that a lot she pretends to be him a lot. I know it’s her because my son has a tell tell sign he does when texting so I know the difference. But being it was on his phone and it hit me like a hot stick I didn’t pay attention to the tell tell sign. That’s why when he stopped by I jumped his butt and showed him the text.
Anyway thank you again for the links I’ll go read them now.

[Notwendy]

I'm sorry- I saw the user name Mickey and assumed you were the grandfather- but Mickey can be both a man and woman's name.

It doesn't make sense for a grown woman to be jealous of her husband's affection for a mother, sister, or daughter, but it happened in my family. My mother completely controlled my father's relationships with anyone else, including me. I realized too that she has read every e mail I sent him and when we spoke on the phone ( a house phone- he didn't have a cell phone until later in his life) she listened in. Although he was the wage earner in the family, he was only allowed to give me any spending money ( as a child- young adult) if she allowed him to. She controlled whether I got any money to help with college and sometimes he did but it was an uncertain situation as it depended on her mood. When he died, she wouldn't let me have any of his belongings- that had sentimental value to me.

She disliked his family from the get go and it was mutual. She also didn't like it when school was out and we kids were home all day. My father's family opened their doors to us and we spent time with them during school breaks. They didn't have a good relationship with her, but they did with us and she was happy to have them keep us during these times. It was then, just her and my father. It was a good thing- we loved spending time with them, and they were a stable, loving family. We are still very close to this side of the family and now my kids are close to their cousins on that side. We are mostly estranged from my mother's side of the family as she rallied them to "her side" whatever that means to her.

It is also possible this woman has another motive- it may not be just the baby mama she wants out of her life but the child too. She knows she can't say it- that would make her look bad. The child is ( to her ) competition for your son's attention and resources. I am also concerned that once she has her own child- that child will have to take precedence.

Your son is on the line here- he either steps up to the plate as a father to this child, or defers to his wife. It may be time to step back and let him choose. Since you have a good relationship with the mother, you can still have your grandmother time with the child no matter what your son decides.

[Mickey47]

I’m so sorry to hear what you went through that’s awful. I pray one day you will get to have a relationship with your mothers side.

 I sent my son a text this morning telling him I contacted his baby mama let her know he will be taking over the pick up and drop off from this moment forward. He said “what made you decide this so suddenly.”  I was like son this is not sudden I told you in front of your wife’s grandpa and told you 3 days before the wedding you were taking over the responsibilities of your daughter. I told him from this moment forward you will no longer put your responsibilities on me. I said “do you realize I’ve been doing this for you for 10 months now?”

My Lord son what did you expect for me to do? Do this for the rest of my life? It’s time you MAN UP and take care of your daughter! He didn’t respond to my response and that’s fine. I’m done with his BS and if his wife is the reason which I know she is for all this trouble. Well then maybe when he is faced with the reality of facing his responsibilities head on maybe then he’ll wake up.

Because honestly baby mama can take him to court and take away his rights to ever see her. So he better watch his step and wake the hell up. I’ll keep you updated on whether he picks her up this weekend or not. For my grand daughter’s sake I pray he does because she adores her daddy. Yeah you’re right about her not wanting my grand daughter in the picture and she knows she can’t say that.

So I feel like I’ve put him in a position to find out the truth and then I’ll just have to pray he does the right thing.

[Mickey47]

To NotWendy and Harri

Because I’ve been sharing all this with you all. I want you to have a little background to show you how my son was before his BPD wife. When he was with his baby mama he was a very interactive dad to not only his own daughter but her other 2 children from previous relationships. He loved all 3 kids like his own. He even continued taking care of them and picking up and dropping off all kids when they broke up. He did this for over a year and a half. Then he met his BPD wife. At first things were good and he went and got the kids every other weekend just like he’d been doing for a very long time. Now I noticed this and this seems to be a pattern with his BPD wife.

She absolutely adored the little boy, but the 2 girls (my grand daughter and her sister) were not really allowed in their room. She spent HOURS with the boy, but didn’t spend much time with the girls at all. Then after his baby mama got with someone she kinda of had her moment to where she turned into a hateful person and took our grand daughter away. When this happened I had to start pushing my son to get his rights. Now I know what was going on the BPD wife (girlfriend) at that time was telling my son to just forget about her.

I found all this out through his best friend. His best friend would get him alone and ask him “do you really want to forget about your daughter” My son would say no and I won’t. But little by little he has stopped spending time with her. All these months I’ve been taking care of her for his weekends so he could spend time with her. He’d show up on Sunday spend maybe 2 hours with her and say he had to go. All the while getting text from his BPD girlfriend. When they moved out I didn’t see his BPD girlfriend until they came over to tell us they were getting married. She apologized for all the damage she caused to my home and what she did to my daughter.

We thought okay she’s apologized and their getting married so we will let all this go and move forward as a family. Then the wedding plans began. She went off on me about my husband not wearing a tux. My son even said his dad was not going to be in the wedding so why should he wear a tux. She went nuts and I basically told her to get over it. Then she didn’t want his sister to go because she’s prettier than her and didn’t want to be outshined by her.

It was literally a nightmare and then I got the text that broke the camels back. She was trying to tell me how to tell my daughter and sister how to apply their makeup for the wedding which they were only guests. I lost my cool that was it! Now my sister has a medical condition where she has to wear sort of cover makeup on her face. My son has known this all his life it’s nothing new. This is when I went off on both of them because she was very disrespectful the way she talked to me and I was done with it all.

Fast forward we did go to the wedding and the wedding it’s self was beautiful her mother did an amazing job. But her she was another story. Right after she got married to my son she’s running up stairs trying to remove the makeup on her face which I was shocked because she’s goth and likes dark makeup. She kept saying it isn’t me and he thinks I’m ugly. I told her she looked gorgeous and to stop that and that my son thought she looked gorgeous.

I’m glad the wedding is over and I just pray my son goes back to being the interactive loving daddy he used to be.

[Harri]

Based on what you say here, it sounds like your son is giving up pieces of himself to appease his wife and keep her calm.  Not stepping in to take his daughter on his weekends is good.  To see what he is choosing to allow, he needs to see the consequences of his choices.  (as long as the child is not hurt)

Detaching with love and support for him is good.  Having good boundaries and using communication tools will help even though he does not have BPD. 

[Mickey47]

Harri
Yes that’s exactly what I think he is doing as well. After talking and sharing this with you and NotWendy you helped me a lot. I finally decided to take back control of my own life and make him be responsible for his daughter. Now whether he does it or not is up to him. I know if I don’t get to see her for a bit all I have to do is contact baby mama and say I want her and she’ll let me have her.

I’m praying that he will see the truth or maybe not see it, because he already sees how his wife is. Stop ignoring it and take a stand for his daughter and his own life. Take control back of his life as well. If BPD wife doesn’t like it well so be it we will be here for our son to see him through whatever he goes through with her.

Even before we knew her diagnosis my husband and I knew this girl was not good for him. She still is not good for him and we feel like anyone that makes you stay away from your loved ones is not a good person to be with. I don’t see the issues he has with her going away. Thank you all for hearing me out.

[Mickey47]

Well I stopped picking up and dropping off my grand daughter. He did contact the baby mama only to tell her he wouldn’t be able to get her that weekend because he is trying to make a place for her. I personally think it’s another excuse. And next time it’s his weekend it’ll be another excuse. We did see him this past Sunday night. He was coming over to pay his dad on a car he is buying from him. For a newly married man he doesn’t seem very happy and never discussed her until my husband asked how things were going on the being married front. My son “ things are fine so dad how did you like over road riding in Utah” he was quick to change the subject. My husband asked plan on having a another child. My son responded quickly NO I said my grand daughter name enough huh? He said yes my husband asked so you never want another one. My son said maybe one day years from now. Course my husband asked these questions for a reason. He too does not want him having kids with her. He did hug his sister while visiting and asked “how’s it going kid” she smiled it made her happy he hugged her and talked to her. He hugged us all goodbye we said we loved him and as always he said “me too” and left. I so miss MY son the fun loving & happy son & devoted loving daddy he used to be nearly 2 yrs ago now. I did notice when he wasn’t being asked questions about his wife he did smile and laugh with us. But as soon as she was brought up the smile and his voice changed to no smile at all and his voice went from happy to low and indifferent. It was weird. Breaks my heart so much to see him become a shell of a person.

[Harri]

Hi Mickey and thanks for the update!

I did notice when he wasn’t being asked questions about his wife he did smile and laugh with us. But as soon as she was brought up the smile and his voice changed to no smile at all and his voice went from happy to low and indifferent. It was weird. Breaks my heart so much to see him become a shell of a person.

Wow, that is heartbreaking.  Just keep being there for him.  Give him a place where he can decompress and maybe get away from the stress of his wife's behavior.  If he closes up when asked a question he may take longer to open up when he needs to. 

Thoughts?

[Mickey47]

Well he does know we love him unconditionally that’s for sure. We always tell him we love him and always are very happy to see him when we do. He gets lots of love and hugs so he knows he is very loved and missed. However my husband is the one that asks those questions, because he knows I want to know, but dad asking is somehow different then mom asking. So I told my husband the more he can trust us well mainly him the more he’ll open up to his dad. I don’t understand why he doesn’t trust me it hurts but I’m pretty sure she fills his head full of crap about me. When they lived with us when they were dating she called me overbearing, but never to my face always on text. He would call me that and all I was doing was being caring. I told him once “I’ve never been overbearing I’m not any different then you’ve always known me to be.” He apologized for saying it and said no you’re not overbearing you just are very caring. I asked him once do you really feel like I’m overbearing and he said no it’s not me that thinks that. I left it alone because I knew WHO he was in a around about way saying it was.

[Panda39]

Hi Mickey47,

I see this as black and white thinking.  His wife can't see that your son can love her and his FOO (Family of Origin) and daughter.  In her mind he can only love her or the rest of you. 

My guess is that you were the parent closest to your son... .making you the bigger "threat" for his affection in her mind.  She is likely putting more pressure on him about his relationship with you which I suspect is why the tension between the two of you.

It could be when he goes home from seeing you that he has to give her a full report... .she's looking for slights or perceived slights in his report.  It could be why he's distanced himself from you... .he doesn't talk to you as much he's got less to tell her and less perceived slights for her to latch on to.  Because if she finds something she puts him in the middle of you and her... .forcing him to choose which is horrible for someone that loves you both.  (This is why forcing a child to side with a parent during a divorce is so damaging)

There is a reason the most well known book about BPD is called Stop Walking on Eggshells... .your son is walking on eggshells trying to keep the peace.

You might want to check out some of the relationship boards to get an idea of what your son might be experiencing at his end.

I'm on these boards because my significant other (SO) has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) he was married 17 years.  I asked him why he stayed so long... .He loved her, he took his wedding vows seriously, he thought he could fix her/solve the problem, the behaviors surfaced gradually and he normalized things that weren't normal, he stayed for his children,he stayed because her issues would overwhelm him and he would shut down, he stayed because he worried that his wife wouldn't be able to take care of herself... .

Many are good reasons/qualities many that I love about him, but those good qualities were leveraged against him by his wife. 

FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail... .You don't love me anymore (Guilt), You made a commitment to me when you married me (Obligation), You leave me and I won't be able to take care of myself (Fear).

More on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

I agree with Harri and Notwendy about putting your son's responsibility to his daughter back on him, hopefully he will step up.

Panda39

[Mickey47]

Panda

Thank you Panda that does help me to understand why he is so distant towards me. Wow I never thought of that and his dad doesn’t ask a lot of questions and he talks to him about cars and such. So she I guess doesn’t feel threatened by my husband. Yes I have always been extremely close to my son and always been there for him no matter what. I’ve always been the one he would come to when he needed to talk, but now I’m not. It hurts really bad but I’m just thankful that he talks to his dad. He call his dad and such, but literally he went weeks without even texting me. I just text him little poems about loving him every now and again. Just to let him see I love him, because I’m so scared she’ll convince him I don’t.

[Panda39]

I think you are doing the right thing... .texting, maybe email him an article about something he's interested in, stay in touch but keep it neutral not about his wife. By doing that you are letting him know you love him, think of him and that the door is open.  I would not pressure him with conversations about his wife.  Try to keep your focus on your relationship with your son and not what is wife is doing (I know easier said than done).  Their relationship is between them and your relationship with him is between the two of you.

When my SO was going through his divorce his wife ran a parental alienation campaign against him, the girls went through his things, read his text messages, tried to break into his computer... .all to report back to their mother.

You see their uBPDmom's love came with strings attached... .you hate your dad too or I won't love you.  They wanted the love of both parents so my theory is they chose mom at that time because they knew that their dad loved them unconditionally... .that he could take it (the siding with their mother) and he would still love them no matter what. But if the girls showed equal love to each parent, this would be perceived by their mother as being with dad and "against" her. If she felt the girls loved their dad their mother would punish them... .withhold her love.  So to have her love they had to choose her.  Something similar may be going on with you son.

(This dynamic eventually changed once the divorce was complete, at which time dad received more custody and then both girls voted with their feet in 2015 to live with their dad full-time.)

The point I'm making is hang in there and just keep loving your son, things might look like one thing on the surface (gotta keep the peace with his wife - maybe at your expense) but what's under the surface could be something completely different.

Panda39

[Notwendy]

In my BPD mother's mind, you are either "on her side or not her side".  To remain "on her side" you have to also not be close to the people who are "not on her side".  What has seemed strange to me is how- grown, rational, educated adults go along with her with this but they do.

My father was in a pattern of being my mother's rescuer and enabler. I think that somehow for some people, this bond - rescuer/victim is very strong. The two of them were strongly aligned when they were both aligned against a common "persecutor" ( see the Karpman triangle for the roles.) and this could vary. Sometimes it was their own children if they were angry at us. I think one aspect of this is that- if someone else is the "problem" then they are not looking at each other and their own problems in the marriage.

As a teen, my mother told me I was the cause of the problems between her and my father. I actually believed it. After I went to college, I thought all was fine between them. I was only home for school breaks after that, so I didn't know any different. Later on a younger sibling told me that things between them were not any different after I left home.

Your son's behavior fits a common pattern. He is walking on eggshells and also buying in to what his wife believes will "fix" things and make her happy. People with BPD don't look at themselves as the problem- there seems to be the " we will be OK if only you didn't or did ( fill in the blank ) for me. Your son is trying to make things better by doing the thing she wants, but if the problem is her own unhappiness, then it becomes a temporary solution.

I am so sorry he is going through this,  but he makes his own choices. I think it is good that you keep the door open for him to come to you and his father. Yet his situation is his to manage. I don't know if it is a good idea to ask him questions, honestly- as long as he is giving up his own self to please her, it may become embarrassing for him to have to explain. 

[Mickey47]

Panda39 & NotWendy
Thank you for all the insight and advice. The main thing I do now is just let him know I love him and yes I do that I email or text him stuff he likes. I never get a reply, but I keep doing it and I don’t do it every day, because then I’m sure if I did it too much she’d say something to him and complain about me being overbearing. So I just do it once about every two weeks that go by. Normally he comes over to see us for some reason or another at the 3 week mark, but has gone months before. I’ve had 2 nervous breakdowns over all of this in this year. So I’m really trying to find ways to deal with this in a healthy way. Like being on here and praying. It does help a lot to talk to someone about this that can relate to it. So thank you so much. Oh and I NEVER ask questions about her ever. I know better from past experiences not to talk about her or ask questions. My husband can and it’s taken in a good way which is odd but whatever works to keep our son close.

Thank you Notwendy for all your advice telling me what you went through helps me to understand why I’m black and my husband is white. It’s so weird but I’m thankful he is white, because I’m afraid if he wasn’t we’d lose our son altogether. I can tell you now I couldn’t take that and that would definitely send me over the edge. Yes he most definitely is walking on eggshells to keep her happy and sooner or later my son is going to explode. He is the type of person much like me who has a lot of patience, but once his patience wares out watch out! I almost can’t wait for that to happen, because I know he’ll then come and talk to us or maybe just his dad at first. I know my son really well and I know he’ll stick to this marriage until he absolutely can not do it anymore then he’ll just up and leave. But it takes a lot for my son to get to that point. My mother in law told me “the longer he is at this job the more confidence he has and then sooner or later he will grow tired of her.” She doesn’t work either she claims she has too much anxiety to work. She’s even tried to get the government to put her on disability because of it! Of course every time she is denied she gets highly pissed off. I know my son will eventually get sick of her not working or helping out. He did before and got her an interview somewhere and she was Holy pissed. He told her “look if you want to continue to stay here we have to work and contribute” that’s when they lived at my home. They also tried to move to Colorado, but within 2 days had to come back because she had a meltdown. She went to a doctor not the right kind and they diagnosed her as Bipolar 1 but then the more and more I researched and learned about Bipolar something just didn’t fit. My sister’s husband is Bipolar and he even said something is still off. Then my friend contacted her friend who is a psychologist and said often times BPD is miss diagnosed for BP Disorder. She fits ALL the symptoms and every time I read on how a BPD person acts she fits that description big time. My friends friend has studied her actions and such. He said she really should seek treatment. I asked my son about it and he said “well she said she doesn’t need treatment she can heal herself” so she refuses treatment for her BP and BPD Disorder. So I’ve stopped asking questions about her period. I’ll jist let nature take its course. Where my son is concerned I mean. He’ll eventually get sick of it. From what his best friend told me he has gotten sick of it before.

[Mickey47]

So UPDATE!

I’m so happy I just got off the phone with my son and we were talking about my grand daughter. He works nights and sleep during the day. He said he was trying to figure out how to have her over this weekend. I was texting him and then decided to just call him and talk. He was at work so perfect because his wife isn’t around. I said “son you’re making this harder on yourself then it has to be.” “While your wife (I said her name) is awake during the day she can take care of her and then when you wake up you can have dinner with her and watch movies or play games. She doesn’t have to go to bed at 8pm it’s the weekend for crying out loud. Heck when I had her she didn’t get to bed till 10 sometimes 11 pm because I’d have to go get your sister from work before she started driving (my daughter is 16) so she doesn’t really need to be on a strict schedule on YOUR weekends.” Plus I said you know it’s important she bond with your wife and with you. And that he was more than welcome to come over here and get some of her favorite toys and bedtime stuff so it could make things easier for her (my grand daughter) and she (his wife) could also use the time they have together to work with my grand daughter. Baby mama has 4 kids and my grand daughter gets put on the back burner a lot when it comes to teaching her numbers letters colors and such. She is way behind and will be 4 in December. I’ve taught her to count to 10, she knows a few of her colors and her abc’s. I used to be a Pre-K teacher for 10 yrs so I know she is under developed at the moment. I will say that about his wife she is good with my grand daughter when she is with her. So I just wanted to share some good news. I don’t know how long this will last but it’s something good for a change. They still live with her grandparents so I feel safe with my grand daughter being there.

[Panda39]

Yay!  That is good news 

A nice conversation with your son, he's stepping up for his daughter, you are helping him problem solve (not taking everything on yourself), granddaughter gets to see her dad, granddaughter gets a little more one on on attention and you even included his wife in the weekend plan.

Awesome job! 

Panda39

[Mickey47]

Thank you Panda!

Yes he agreed with me that his wife does need to bond with his daughter. Being they live with his wife’s grandparents I told him that I’m sure they’ll love spending time with his daughter as well. He agreed and said he just thought it was defeating the purpose for her to be with him because he is sleeping. So I just said “well that’s what your wife is there for I mean she’s her step mom now so she suppose to help you with her.” I pray he actually goes and gets her and things do work out, because my grand daughter adores her daddy and misses him so much.

[cClearly]

Mickey47,
As hard as it will be, you do nothing.  It is not your responsibility to maintain a relationship between your son and your grandchild.  It, solely, falls on him.  As his parent, I realize that you don't want to see that parent/child bond between them lay to waste, but at the same time, he is an adult.

[Mickey47]

cClearly

Yes with the help of my family friends and friends on here. It gave me the courage to let go and make him take on his own responsibilities and stop putting it on me. I’ll be able to see my grand daughter anytime I want, because the baby mama and I are on friendly terms. I just pray he does what he suppose to and not let his wife win yet again. But it’s all in the Lords hands now.

[Mustbeabetterway]

 Hello, due to the great response to this thread, it has reached the post limit and has been locked.  Feel free to start a new thread.

Thank you,

Mustbe