Should I allow udBPDd16 to live with dBPDexH? (500 miles away)

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

 

My dBPDexH re-entered our D17s life earlier this year - after several years of absence.  He suddenly left again (back to where he lived before) a month ago -(blamed D and me for him choosing to leave).  D was devasted and spiraled out of control - lots of high risk, dangerous, illegal behavior. 


Also Since his return, it has been utter chaos - push / pull , legal battles, stopped paying support, manipulating my D against me, and now using CPS against me.

He has managed to manipulate our D to hate me.  She does not want to come back to my home to live at all, and wants to move with him out of state.  All part of this plan to stop paying me support and part of her plans to live free like an adult. 

Should I allow this?   


They have worn me down - I am getting ill.  Trying to protect my  D16, but she doesnt want my protection and is now attacking me.



ps:  I am seriously concerned my D17 may too have BPD (hence ud).  She was recently diagnosed with depression. 

[needPeace]

 

My dBPDexH re-entered our D17s life earlier this year - after several years of absence.  He suddenly left again (back to where he lived before) a month ago -(blamed D and me for him choosing to leave).  D was devasted and spiraled out of control - lots of high risk, dangerous, illegal behavior. 


Also Since his return, it has been utter chaos - push / pull , legal battles, stopped paying support, manipulating my D against me, and now using CPS against me.

He has managed to manipulate our D to hate me.  She does not want to come back to my home to live at all, and wants to move with him out of state.  All part of this plan to stop paying me support and part of her plans to live free like an adult. 

Should I allow this?   


They have worn me down - I am getting ill.  Trying to protect my  D16, but she doesnt want my protection and is now attacking me.



ps:  I am seriously concerned my D17 may too have BPD (hence ud).  She was recently diagnosed with depression. 

[david]

Not sure what to say except at that age kids can decide on their own with the help of the courts. DBPDXH might not realize that and neither might D16/17. I live in Pa and courts will listen to children's preferences at 15 provided they sound reasonable. Ex's diagnosis may change that for the courts.

[needPeace]

Thanks for the reply David

I understand kids have a say in who the live with, as they should.

D17s idea of who to live with changes monthly.   ex is working hard on alienating her from me, so there is that.

My concern/question wasn't about the legality of it, it is more about "how badly can he mess her up emotionally" if she lives far away and with him? (She has been with me almost 100% of the time since she was born). 

She lived with him for a couple of months this year and it took about 2.5 months for her to see what he is really like.   She came back home.  But now we swing the other way. 

I have always wanted to protect her, but I am getting ill fighting.   Like trying to save a drowning person, who then beats up the lifeguard with every stroke. 

I am pretty confident she will want to come back home in a few months (I give it 2 to 6 months), and of course she will be welcome back here. 

I have fears he will lose it and physically hurt her (he has before, and he was abusive to me, too) - and I won't be close enough to help.   or she will want to leave and he won't allow her to (which makes her stuck again). 

She needs therapy and he is very anti therapy. 

What do other parents feel about their kids being under the care of the pwBPD?

[david]

Is your daughter in counseling now ? If she is, perhaps you can go with her and lay it out there. Running away from one situation, living with you, into another situation is not going to address the issue  that needs to be addressed. Is she running away from a problem or is she running to a solution. If the problem is the way she is handling things then running away will not solve it because she would still be wherever she goes and that is what needs to be addressed. A change of scenery will not change her behavior.  It needs to be more delicate/diplomatic/etc but I think you get my point. Addressing your relationship and the difficulty the two of you are having would be a start in the right direction.
I know someone that let her son live with his dad. It lasted for a summer and he was abusive and that ended that. The son no longer communicates at all with his father. He was 16 or 17 at the time. He is now in his late 20's.
Also, I would think some kind of boundary needs to be set, if she leaves, before she actually goes. If she wants to come back there has to be some understanding of what that would entail. Counseling for the two of you to better communicate ? counseling for her to better deal with her stressors ? rules that have to be followed that are simple/fair yet unwavering ? I'm reaching here for something to help.

[needPeace]

Thanks David, your advice is spot on.  I have tried to get her into counseling for months, I finally did, and exBPDh stopped it. 

A lot has happened since I first posted, sadly.

exBPDh has encouraged/supported D to make false accusations of abuse against me.  He also lied in court, and at least for the next few weeks, I no longer have custody.   and considering her accusations - no contact either. 

I know I will be exonerated but in the meantime... .I am spent 

Thanks again for your replies

[david]

So, I am thinking if D wants to come back you need to be prepared to lay out the terms. You would need, in writing, that she made false accusations. Time,date, details, etc. Also, go to counseling where she verbally acknowledges what she did. It is on her to make things right. I could be way off base here but she needs some kind of consequence and you need some kind of protection.
My ex has accused me of being physically, verbally, emotionally, and spiritually abusive on quite a few occasions. I have many emails with some or all of the accusations. She tried , in court ordered co parent counseling, to accuse me of not being willing to communicate in any manner except email. I pointed out her various accusations and said I thought it best if we had no contact except through email to relieve her fears of me and to protect her. She then verbally lashed out at me. The counselor was there and witnessed the entire thing.
You might insist that she go to counseling herself and as long as she does she can live with you. You might want to run that by the counselor or others.

[ForeverDad]

It sounds like she is going to do whatever she wants to do.  As I see it, you don't have to "give her permission".  Does that make sense?  If she leaves and then asks to come back later I would think you'd feel more enabled to set very firm rules and boundaries if she returns.  One of the terms would have to be that she and you meet with her therapist, state she left without your approval and now that she wants back (if that happens of course) then the T sees that you will require changes, improvements in behavior including therapy she can't dump.  And recant her allegations.  In writing.  Before the T or others as witnesses.

[needPeace]

I just met for 2 hours with a counselor I hired as a parenting coach back in the summer.  She has been a life send. 

She just said the same thing both of you stated.  I really need to make sure I have my terms ready, yes therapy for sure 100% - she will need it with a BPDFather. 

9 years later, and this board is still a blessing.  Thanks 

[needPeace]

I just met with an attorney to discuss my options.


I can hire the atty and file ex parte (with the atty) to

1) demand co-counseling for me and D and 2) get an atty assigned for D (the atty would represent D's best interests, and can probably get down to the bottom of everything.

It will probably cost me another $5,000+ to battle all this.

But the atty asked me an important Q - what do I want out of all of this.   Well, normally I would say I want my D back in my care and I want her in therapy.  But if D is forced back to me, she will only run away again - or worse, make even worse false accusations against me or other adults in our household.  Right now, I can't have her back home (and it is killing me).

I dont know if its worth it - time and money wise.   I don't mean fighting for my D, I mean just battling this war I don't see a way I will win even if I win.

I don't want exBPD to get away with this - I have massive amounts of text messages and emails between him and our D proving he is trying to turn her against me (even telling her while we are court that I am 'beating' him up in court, and making him pay more money to which D replies "you owe her nothing!" etc.  

But trying to hold a pwBPD 'responsible' is like trying to hold onto water in your hand by squeezing harder.  

He has been working since 09/2017 to turn her against me - I have evidence back to then - but to what end?  

Would love any and all feedback please.  

[david]

Might want to run this by the counselor but maybe you should lay out everything to D as to what the truth is. It may not go over well but it may plant a seed. After laying it out you can then give the choice to D. Let her know that you think it best for her to be with you but things have to change for the better. List the rules/your plan/etc as to how you think it would work and also ask her how she thinks it would/should work. It has to be simple but cover everything you can think of that can/will come up.
Saying something like you and I both need to live happy productive lives and they way things are going now isn't working. You see it and I do too. We need to find a way to work things out and this is what I think could work. What ideas do you have ? If she has an idea that makes sense then agree and try to incorporate it. If it makes no sense find a diplomatic way to show how you think it will not work.
My situation started with my ex running away with our two boys back in 2007. They were around 4 and 8 at the time. I called ex but she would not answer or let me see or talk to our boys. That was one of the more stressful times in my life. I couldn't eat or sleep. Couldn't think straight. I am sure you get the picture. She also started alienating them from me. I think, because of their young age, I was able to counter ex. The biggest reason was I was consistent and they eventually learned they could trust me and talk to me about anything without me exploding. Ex still can't do that.
You need to be in a good place in order to help so if she does go you probably need to find a T for you. I found one after 3 or 4 tries. I finally found one that I felt clicked. It helped get my head on straight. I built boundaries so my ex couldn't discombobulate me anymore. I went to email only communication.

[AnuDay]

Hello needpeace, My daughters have told me that they want to go live with their mother or they wish they could live with their mother's mother... .of course my daughters are much too young now to make that decision on their own but it does upset me when they say it because the conditions that they are living in with me are much better than with their BPD mom. I have thought about in the future when they will be able to make the decision where to live on their own.  It concerns me. Their mother has told them that when they are 13 they can decide where to live.  The mom is unrelenting in her alienation tactics against me too.  I have to be very careful about what I tell my children because the mom will twist my words. I have told myself that if the day ever does come when they want to live with their mother exclusively that I am fully ready to let them do that and make their own decision whether it's to their detriment or benefit. They will be living their own lives and have to learn things on their own; although I'm comforted by the fact that even at the age that they are at now they don't get along well with their mom and I predict that this situation will deteriorate further as they get older, but like you, I don't know if the mother will use the tactic of "you can do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it at my house" ie. "Total freedom" in order to get them to live with her.   I'm speaking from a male perspective so my viewpoint is totally different, but I have made up my mind that I'm not going to live with this ongoing drama and stress for any longer than I have to.  Good luck to you.  

[needPeace]

Saying something like you and I both need to live happy productive lives and they way things are going now isn't working. You see it and I do too. We need to find a way to work things out and this is what I think could work. What ideas do you have ? If she has an idea that makes sense then agree and try to incorporate it. If it makes no sense find a diplomatic way to show how you think it will not work.

Thanks for the advice David, that is what I did with D today.  She has tasted some of the extreme ugly of her BPDfather - and no longer wants to be near him.  He was cruel to her and it is so upsetting to see it before ones own eyes.

I am hopeful, we will heal, in time, with lots of love and counseling.

[needPeace]

Their mother has told them that when they are 13 they can decide where to live.  The mom is unrelenting in her alienation tactics against me too.  I have to be very careful about what I tell my children because the mom will twist my words. I have told myself that if the day ever does come when they want to live with their mother exclusively that I am fully ready to let them do that and make their own decision whether it's to their detriment or benefit.

My D made the mistake of thinking living with her dBPDfather would be the better option, twice, and regretted both times - the second time being subsequently worse.   I could have turned my back and let her deal with all of the ramifications of her bad decision, but I realize she is a victim here (even though she is responsible for her bad choices). 

I read the book Co-Parenting with a Toxic Ex - recommended here.   I would highly recommend it - especially if your daughters' Mom has BPD.  It gave me insight on how the alienation tactics affect my D - and that was eye opening. 

It has helped me turn things around with my D.  If you haven't read that book, please do.

Best of wishes to you, too!

[david]

Good to hear. Things will take time but it sounds like you made the first step in a positive direction.