Help with gf giving me silent treatment

[itsmeSnap]

Hello , new here just need someone to hear me out and hopefully provide some guidance:

So long story long, I've been talking to a girl (she's 23, I'm 28) for about two years now and she's displayed BPD traits and I have recently learned I have some narcissist tendencies (she's undiagnosed, I'm undiagnosed, I know I'm not an expert to say we have x or y, just read a lot about both after I met her)

Ok so I noticed this and told her about it, she seems to forget about it every time, I told her just to be aware of it and read on it but I don't think she did.

We'd been on and off for that time, sometimes I'd retreat because she'd been angry at me. once I did pressure her to do something for me, I wanted a picture of her, nothing compromising like nudes, just something I could know had been taken recently, she sent me an older picture and texted telling me it was indeed an older picture and she would have done it but I was being stubborn about it, which admittedly I was. the other time she was angry I admit I was a bit arrogant and she called me out on it. twice she retreated because she said I was too good for her. (take all these with a grain of salt, only recently did I became aware I was being self centered and started regulating my own behavior)

As a bit more info, we'd been close non-stop (as in, visiting after work, sex, texts when we were apart) for about a week prior and I had to take care of some family visits and I was very busy the day before (had to set up an office, she knew about it). It felt almost too good, I actually had a paranoid moment when I was sure she was lying to me and spent the whole night dissecting our interactions to see if I could catch her in a lie, which I couldn't obviously, so maybe I was actually retreating myself a bit by being busy like that... .

anyway, she commented on how I didn't even have an hour to talk to her, I explained it was a family visit and she enthusiastically said it was ok then because family is family so I thought it was ok

Things were really good until later that day she told me she'd go out for a drink (beer was her choice) because she'd been having some stress lately and to look out for her drunk texts because she might sound needy, I told her she could text me anytime, I'd have my phone close by. she did text me later saying she didn't think it was a good idea going out because she had to spend money and she was very cheap.

I think I made the mistake of not comforting her about it, told her to take small sips of the beer or to order a stronger mixed drink if she wanted to feel the buzz for less, she might have taken it to mean that I was indeed acknowledging she was cheap which was not my intention, I wanted her to have a good time on a budget, she hasn't talked to me since then.

Is there anything I can do to help her feel like I care or just reach out to her? just an honest opinion and an outside neutral perspective will be appreciated.

Also, sorry for the wall of text! I needed to vent a little, thanks for the support.

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[once removed]

hi itsmeSnap, and

are the two of you together? how long ago was it that you heard from her, and whats the longest you typically go without talking?

[itsmeSnap]

Not living together no, its been about a week since we last talked. I heard from a friend of hers that she's been ignoring me (I was actually worried she might have had an accident from going out to drink but that was not the case)

"typical no talking" is a bit hard to tell. We've been apart up to six months, more often about 3 months but that's when we've broken up before. she's always responded before, even if dismissively or angry leading up to it but never "cold turkey" like that, there's always been a "this is it" moment were we both sort of agreed it was over.

This is the first time this has happened, we were both trying hard to make it work this time, she told me she was being atypically nice to me, that it was unexpectedly easy to talk to me and that she hadn't gotten "bored" of me which is what usually happens. we had a little discussion about that, she said I had given up on her, I told her I didn't, she got angry at me, I told her I didn't want to mess our thing again, she told me to "fix it then" and I just hugged and kissed her goodnight, she was so glad I did, told me I did good the next day and things were good for about two weeks after that until this point.

Which is why I'm at a bit of a loss here, this is not our "typical separation/breakup/no contact". Should I just wait for three months to reconnect? things were really good and I'd like to reach out to her and "fix it" like before, just let her know I'm here and trying and hopefully she'll see it. I know I can't expect it to work like before or how long she'll take to talk to me but I guess I just want a chance to try.

Should I just be patient? how long would be too long? or too soon to reach out?

[Radcliff]

You're getting good advice from once removed, and perhaps others will join in.

Can you tell us how you came to feel that you have narcissistic traits?  We all do, to some extent.  When we're with someone with BPD it can be hard to get an accurate reflection of ourselves, so I was curious if other sources have influenced your thinking, like reading, self reflection, work with a therapist, etc.

RC

[itsmeSnap]

To Radcliff: so about my narcissistic suspicion:

After reading a lot about BPD in general and, like the title of my posts says, silent treatment and other "psychologically abusive" ways to handle miscommunication I found out about how it's also used a lot by narcissistic people.

To be honest I was shocked to hear much the same issues I've had after meeting my gf but through a whole different rationale. In reading about BPD I've read about emotional disregulation and heightened sensitivity leading to these issues but on the narcissistic side it was just "they're sadistic, they don't care, they are a void and are only using you for their 'supply'", which was not my experience but the traits sort of matched with some things I've experienced.

So I kept reading, mostly online.

I caught myself over exaggerating my workout success to my brother and got angry when he pointed out a flaw in my routine (he works out too and has a training coach) would turn any success story of other people into how I've struggled through similar stuff to make it about me, I understand how people are feeling and can almost read them like a book but I don't necessarily feel like they do even though I "know" how they're feeling, like I said in the post I got paranoid about her intentions and thought she was lying without any reason to feel that way, my family knows me for always finding something to be "improved", particularly with their food, even though its good food, I even thought I trying to protect my gf when she said something about a person at work flirting with her I said to watch out because he might have more devious intentions and asking her if she had any way to move away from her controlling roommate/ex (he cheated on her and described the whole thing in graphic detail, she said her crying and yelling at him got so bad the neighbors came over to check on them and called the police), apparently that was me trying to isolate her?

My point is I've never done any of those thing maliciously,  not to my own perception anyway even though I know it sounds harsh or dismissive sometimes, and not as "evil" like they paint them but I did do all those things. Almost every trait I've read about them I noticed I have displayed except the hurtful stuff, but again I could be lying to myself even I don't know.

I like being in control and my family looks up to me to make the hard choices and not so hard ones, most decisions pass through my approval even when I tell them not to ask me, even then they take it as "implicit approval". Been a high achiever since I can remember, except a bad time in my life due to unrelated romantic problems. I manage the family business, looking to expand it, moving away to seek new opportunities.

Grew up with workaholic anger issues dad and impulsive (high/reckless spender, unfinished projects) mom. They got married really fast after a breakup my dad had, mom said he changed as soon as they got married (sounded BPD to me how she described it but who knows). they're divorcing now after 30+ years. he confessed to me, not to my mom, of having an "affair" with a coworker, there are still concerns about a second family with "kids" (as far as anyone has hinted is they'd be older than my oldest brother, so maybe we were the second family?) because of known past relationships, frequent and extended "work travel" and undisclosed high spending even though he's very frugal otherwise.

Anyway thats my background haha I guess I needed to vent that out as well. I got issues of my own I'm working on. no formal therapy yet, last time I tried they gave me pills (alprazolam I think it was, basically xanax) and that was it, I don't want pills.

Again this could all be me tooting my own horn so yeah. My focus coming here is about my gf, she's so good to me even with her issues, I got my own so I won't ever make that "a problem", I just want this to work.

Please advise.

[once removed]

regarding the narcissistic traits... .

50% of romantic partners of someone with BPD have a personality disorder themselves. a BPD/NPD relationship is one of the most common of these fits. quite often, one or both parties has something going on like a mood or impulse disorder, anxiety, depression, etc.

having said that, most of our partners would not reach the threshold for a BPD diagnosis (but may have pronounced traits), and most of us would not reach the threshold for any diagnosis either (but may have pronounced traits).

all of that is a long winded way of saying personality disorders are rare, but its a good idea to say "i have these unhealthy behaviors, what can i do about them?". there is such a thing as healthy narcissism, and there are also ways in which our narcissism can over compensate and affect our relationships, how we deal with adversity in life, etc.  

so its been a week since you spoke, do i have that right? whats keeping you from reaching out to her?

[itsmeSnap]

I have tried reaching out to her but she won't answer.

I have no idea what's going through her mind right now, there was no fight or argument, nothing escalated, it was the perfect relationship up until that point (in the past we've had problems but we talked and worked though them) she felt vulnerable and told me, I answered the "wrong" thing (its in the original post so no new info here), no contact.

I feel like I should keep trying to reach her, but I've read that since silence is a form of taking control I should just let it run its course. Maybe less frequent attempts to contact? I tried everyday for four days, every other day since, maybe I should try once a week? I don't want her to feel like I've given up on her, and I don't want to annoy her and keep her mad at me with "nagging for contact".

I'm having trouble with this because its the first time the BPD has "affected" our relationship directly and not through generating conflict as in the past, she told me she was surprised I was "handling her so well". I can defuse her anger no problem but how do I defuse her silence?

[once removed]

she felt vulnerable and told me, I answered the "wrong" thing (its in the original post so no new info here), no contact.

can you elaborate here? youre talking about where she was going out for a drink, and you suggested she take small sips, and you think she wanted you to comfort her, do i have that right? did she say anything to indicate that you said the wrong thing, or was that simply the last time you heard from her?

and you have reached out at least once (how many times, and in what form?) since then, right, and its now been one week?

a friend of hers has also confirmed that she is ignoring you.

do i have all that right?

[itsmeSnap]

to once removed yes I have tried reaching her.

Ok so for extra detail on how it developed: we had a very good time on sunday (28 oct) We were texting in the morning and told her I had to move away from the phone because of work (the office thing), she said "but I want you now" (half demanding, half not, I saw it for what it was) and told her to not argue with me about it, there are things to be done. she agreed and said she had some errands to do herself, we said we'd be "responsible adults" for the day and get private time later that day. We did, the night ended well.

On the 29th she texted me something which I can't really remember rn, it was something nice about the night before. I couldn't answer so she said "its funny how I can go hours without answering but I get frustrated when you take your time to respond", and then another saying "Get back on your phone right now". Obviously I hadn't seen them so as soon as I got them I just answered "I'm back", we talked and she calmed down.

Same day later she went out of her way to surprise me after work, she had something she wanted to show me. I commented on it (it was clothing, I wasn't too "flirty" about it I would say), she said I didn't sound too excited about her gift to me, I elaborated a bit more and with some banter she got comfortable with me. the night ended well.

(I do notice I hadn't been as available as she wanted, but I did answer and things had gone well so I thought nothing of it)

On the 30th my sister inlaw was visiting so us uncles could have some playtime with my nephew, they live far and only visit occasionally. I thought I'd have some time with my gf in the afternoon so I didn't text her in the morning (She's at work at that time so again, maybe careless me, I thought nothing of it). that's when she said "don't you have at least an hour to talk to me?", to be fair I could have just texted her, after the family visit I went shopping with my brother and my sis-inlaw had invited us to visit now at her family's house. I told her about it and she switched to a happy and excited "that's a fair excuse then! family is family" and I told her I just had to drive to her place and I'd have my phone with me, that's when she said she'd go out to drink and to watch out for needy texts and that she'd text me in the morning to tell me if she was hungover (she hasn't had alcohol in years, since she moved out on her own), later she texted saying that it wasn't a good idea. it was late but not that late (10pm), I thought she was still out so it didn't even cross my mind to ask her if she needed a ride or some company, I had free time and nothing to do in the morning, but I just said the small sips thing, she saw it and that was it. Haven't heard from her since.

on morning of the 31st I tried texting her about how her drinking night was blocked from our usual texting app, tried to reach her through social media but she proceeded to block me on each one I tried, she won't answer my phonecalls. A friend of hers reached her so I know for a fact she still uses her messaging app, I don't know if they talked about me and my gf painted me as evil (I know about splitting so its possible she did) but now I can't reach her friend either.

I actually made a second account because I thought at first that one was just glitched, so I tried reaching her through there, she hasn't blocked me there, I know she gets notifications I'm trying to reach her but the messages don't get through so she also hasn't heard from me other than that.

I don't have her address either, she always comes over to my place to get away from her roommate/ex, never thought about asking her for it before (now I see it was a major oversight in case of emergency).

When we've broken up before she blocked me at least once (that I can remember), but since I sort of "deserved" it (it was after a heated argument, just words, it's been settled since we started seeing each other again) I just let her go, she unblocked and added me back three months later, told her I wanted to be just friends this time, sort of as a middle ground (I rationalized it as maybe if there's no high emotions between us her mood won't swing as much and we can stay close longer, even if not romantically) but she wanted to get back together, I did too so after a while of pretending to be just friends we did, and things were "good" until now.

And I don't want to sound condescending, I appreciate the support but please give me some actual advice, anything, I feel like in one of those stereotypical therapy sessions "and how does that make you feel?, now lets talk about the relationship with your parents". I know its needed but right now I could use some validation myself instead of more questioning I guess... .

The silence has done its job I guess, I feel not in control.

I feel so lost that even when I've done things "mostly right" this happens, and I can't do anything else because she won't speak to me and I have no way to reach her. I just want to be able to do something about it, I know I can't, so I do this, reaching out to her from an account I know she can see but don't know if she's ignoring or is just lost in the mess of notifications we all get.

[once removed]

I appreciate the support but please give me some actual advice, anything,

ok 

the timeline helps.

it sounds like she made a lot of effort to get your time and attention, feels she didnt get it, and shes pissed. the last event may not have been much of a biggie, but could have been a last straw. you have confirmation that shes not only ignoring you, but has blocked you on multiple fronts.

whether shes doing it as a means of getting her way, or saying worse, its hard to say.

if its advice that youre wanting, it may not be what you want to hear: blocking someone is erecting some pretty high walls. couple that with her painting you as evil as you say. theres simply not a lot you can do short of giving space, because trying to reach over someones walls tends to push them away, or they erect higher walls, which is the last thing you want.

now in your experience, eventually, things have blown over and she reaches out, but that could take a while. if you want to do something, anything, you can continue to (occasionally, and id wait a few days to a week before saying anything else) send something from the account youre not blocked on, thats light and upbeat and lets her know youre around (though doesnt necessarily say those words). the obvious risk is that she may block that avenue.

[itsmeSnap]

Thanks man I just needed to hear it from someone else   .

I was thinking exactly that, give her another week, then a month, then whatever happens.

It does feel awful being ignored even when I wasn't, like this thread here haha don't take it the wrong way, it was an enlightening experience and I can now relate much more to how she was feeling, like I was there but not giving her what she needed, just like you were trying to help me but couldn't quite hit the mark (until now that is haha).

Keep trying to help people guys, you did help me. I will stay around here to try and shed some insight with my experiences whenever I can, will report back if anything happens with her.

Thanks guys!

[once removed]

It does feel awful being ignored

it does. it can make a person feel totally helpless. the advice given to me at the time, when i wanted to reach out to my ex, was to remind myself that i could reach out any time i wanted, but to sleep on it, and that now wasnt necessarily the best time.

I will stay around here to try and shed some insight with my experiences whenever I can, will report back if anything happens with her.

i hope you will, for a few reasons:

theres a long history here, and it includes a fair amount of conflict. advice for right now is nice, but it will help, over time, to break down the history and aspects of your relationship with others, get some feedback, start learning the tools, because when/if you hear from her, youre going to want a better understanding for how things have transpired, where they are now, and what a new game plan looks like.

also, a strong support system is critical in these relationships, and working with others will keep those problem solving, conflict resolution skills sharp.

[itsmeSnap]

i hope you will, for a few reasons:

theres a long history here, and it includes a fair amount of conflict. advice for right now is nice, but it will help, over time, to break down the history and aspects of your relationship with others, get some feedback, start learning the tools, because when/if you hear from her, youre going to want a better understanding for how things have transpired, where they are now, and what a new game plan looks like.

Ok so crisis mode averted, I'm on wait and see mode. I could use this time to get some feedback, as you and others online have pointed out, even if not with her, we seem to gravitate towards these personalities, I want to be prepared.

This is going to sound so self centered but our conflict has revolved around her thinking I'm too good for her (remember I said I have narcissist tendencies, this could be just me twisting everything but this is my personal perspective as I experienced it), she has told me that she fears her "evil side" will tear us apart, that she hopes we're not "chaos" if we got serious (as in, moving in together), at one point I told her I'd just text her from the other side of the couch if that makes it easier, she seems more comfortable when we're on the phone, says it feels easier because "it's not as real".

I know inner shame is part of the disorder so I try to see it from that angle but that shame causes her to think that since I'm too good I'll leave her for someone better at some point and cuts me off, how to make her see that she is good enough? or maybe bring forward more of my own flaws?

Excuse any inconsistencies in the time frames this is from memory as far as I can piece it together but here it goes.

Out of our "breakups", first time she didn't want me to come over to her house and broke it off (dating for about 2 months then)

 she started texting me soon after when she was on a trip to visit family, broke it off because she might have to move away to canada (1 month talking, flirty but not serious). I found out later she had a rebound relationship but didn't last because of Canada.

A month later her canada relocation got derailed (she was living with family there but couldn't stand them so she had planned to move in with another "boyfriend" but he backed off last second and she wouldn't move back in with her family) and had to come back, she talked to me again on her way back, friendly, after two or three weeks she said I was too good for her and broke contact, she met her now roommate/ex then and moved in with him (still living in the same apt to this day)

4 months later we spoke again, I asked about her boyfriend and she said she was single, I didn't believe she was being completely honest, here is where I pressured for a recent picture and she broke it off.

 We spoke again around christmas about six months later, for three weeks again, still flirty but she said she didn't believe in labels, I went along with it because I truly enjoyed being with her, bought her favorite chocolate as a gift so it wasn't too over the top and sent her a picture, next thing I know I'm too good looking and she went quiet.

After some 3 months I hear from her again, I was out of town, spoke for just three days. Figured she was just checking up on me, told her what was going on in my life, she seemed excited about it, I acted a bit over the top I was actually bragging but thought it was just fun to do, she did tell me to back it off a bit and i did, but not enough, she got mad at me for being so flashy and i responded in that same overinflated persona and she took offense to that.

 Another three months, just one day. this time I was teasing/mean to her about how she always came back and I didn't care I was this good and I boasted and was an idiot about it, she told me to back off from the flashiness but I told her why would I she'd taken me back anyway (yeah I know). I guess I was angry that being good enough was somehow a problem for her. Maybe I still am a little upset about that.

About 3 months later I contacted her again, wanted to be just friends now (I did miss our good talks), she agreed, we talked, she wanted more, I did too, we became serious, talked about the future, discussed how we would handle living together, we playfully talked about how id propose to her as the best man on her own wedding with another guy to stir up some drama haha, said her dad would have my head on a platter if i did, told her that wouldn't happen if she said yes, that I'd put my life in her hands, she thought it was romantic and funny at the same time. We spoke about a getaway in January. It was the best we've ever been.

I stood my ground on telling her we wouldn't move in together until after January but that it could also be up to a year, I have some stuff I need settled and might be moving to a new bigger place, she knows about it and was ok with it, "we've done two years of this already, I can wait one more" she said. she had a place available so she could move out from her ex's place, spent the weekend with friends to stay away from him just for a while. Maybe that stress had a role in the whole thing.

It was an intense month of constant contact, I loved every second of it. Texting at work, date afternoon, visit at night. Not a single day went by we weren't together until I got busy. I know the paranoid moment might creep up again, first world problems I guess, it felt SCARY good for a moment, maybe I subconsciously needed a break, but not like this haha.

I know 4-ish months in two years total serious dating time seem short to be this worked up over, but the no strings attached time was always very good (except that one time, I admit it was my fault) so I always had fond memories of our time together, and now that for the first time it is "serious" serious I don't want to let it fall apart.

The plan was, I knew she'd get upset so I defused every time by calling her bluff: fearing chaos? text you from across the couch, fear we'd be a boring couple? We'll get a monster truck (I know, its supposed to be funny and she got that), afraid one of us is gonna feel trapped? Just tell me its over in good terms and I'm gone (this did trigger a crisis, but she let me "fix it", I reassured her I had not given up on her and will not give up on her and we were ok), every time it worked until I got busy and yeah probably retreated a bit.

The new plan can't be that I'm available all day every day, even though I love being with her, life just gets in the way sometimes. just three days busy and she felt abandoned, what would happen if I had to be away for a week? How about her visiting family and I couldn't because of work? What about anything unexpected? Are we doomed to being a couple just for a month, three or four times a year? I know this would be for us to work out but the silence man, I can handle her anger but with silence there's nothing to be done.

The "radical option" seems like I should ask her to move in with me in the period of time that she's "into me" so she'd "have to" see me, much like she still sees her roommate/ex, so I can have more chances to defuse the situation and bring her happy self to the forefront again. Sounds sort of controlling doesn't it, I just want her to be happy.

Ok so cards laid out, some feedback for a better understanding? or am I just daydreaming? Feel free to ask anything again I'm calmer now and ready to have a conversation.

Sorry I wrote a book over here, so much has happened.

[FaithfulInLove]

Hello itsmeSnap,

You know about my situation so I'm not sure if l can give you any advice as I'm feeling very lost in this myself.

I just wanna send you support and let you know I'm impressed by how you've handled this chaos before. You sound okay with everything that happened, really in acceptance and that is such an important thing.

It gave me a lot, hearing that she came back after months of not being in touch. It makes me hope that if my ex and me ever lose touch completely, that there'll be another chance in the future.
That helps me, but I don't know if it helps you? She came back a few times, this situation could end up similar.
I'm wishing you all the best

[once removed]

This is going to sound so self centered but our conflict has revolved around her thinking I'm too good for her
... .
I know inner shame is part of the disorder

it makes a lot of sense.

both shame and low self esteem tend to run hand in hand with BPD traits. additionally, you have not only the tendency to put loved ones on pedestals, but coupled with heightened fears of abandonment.

there isnt so much a way to love these intense fears out of a person, but how we listen and respond, and whether we can build trust in the long term can have a big impact.

in reading your story, it sounds like she may be a bit of a commitment-phobe. in some ways, on some levels, you both might be. it sounds like when things got serious, you were overwhelmed, and she had very high expectations. you both kinda balked. does that sound right?

Are we doomed to being a couple just for a month, three or four times a year?

without substantial change, things are likely to remain the same, or deteriorate, and each make up/break up cycle contributes to that, especially as the stakes have become higher each time. i read very little long term trust between the two of you. i think substantial change, in short, would involve a lot of listening to her fears/concerns in a validating way, making an effort to connect emotionally and build that trust (as well as just enjoying each other as a couple), and demonstrating consistency... .taking active steps in both supporting her (within reason) and commitment.

in even shorter, it would take courting her, and being able to weather the storms ie her fears and doubts. 

do you want to do that? do you have long term plans? do you want to marry her?

[itsmeSnap]

To faithfulinlove: glad you dropped by, it helps. Thank you!

To once removed: about the commitment thing. Could be but I experienced it more as a "she's too good to be real". That's part of the reason why I keep pursuing even after so many breakups.

And about her commitment, you got it all backwards, she jumps head first into a relationship/commitment without considering the implications.

Ok more story time:

Her first serious bf, moved in with him, failed after 2.5 years (cheated on, she wouldn't leave his house) apparently he moved away and so she was left " homeless" (as in, either get your own place or move back with family).

She had 3 or 4 relocations after that time, she claims were work related but the pattern (as will become apparent) is there so I doubt it (paranoid me maybe?)

I met her after that, about her fifth relocation. As you know from my last post, every relocation is based on a new relationship (when she visited family she met first exbf, canada was r/s based, back again she had her roommate/ex, now 2.5 years in there, I was there in between each of those)

It seems like the only two r/s she didn't cut off that fast were because the bf would let her stay at the shared home and she needed a place to stay, so she kept coming back because why not a fallout on yet another failed relationship (me for example) and she could come back to her cohabiting ex and make up and keep her home.

I know it sounds blaming, it really isn't, I actually wish I was in that situation so she'd stay with me haha

Anyway...

On the occasion when I talked to her about what was going on in my life I mentioned I would have my own bigger place soon and we talked about her visiting but she made it sound as if she wanted to stay with me. I did and still do want to live together, but at the time it was impossible, still kinda is I'm moving out soon and the house is not ready, when I told her she got mad, stopped talking to me soon after.

I balked because I couldn't keep up I guess, I needed it (still do) to last until after January when I can ask her to move in with me, after being paranoid about it being too good it crossed my mind to pace myself so I could "drag the r/s on" for a few months, sounds bad I know, but "normal relationship maintenance" does feel like that after so much intensity.

When its as intense as we were there's nowhere to go but deeper into the relationship, I couldn't, I couldn't ask her to move in just yet and I didn't want to tell her no, because I wanted it too.

I guess I was afraid she'd grow "bored" of me in that time, I see that now.

I accelerated it, self fulfilling self defeating. man I didn't order this side dish of BPD traits for me, anyone want them? Haha

I am considering asking her to marry me. I can handle the rage, and with her having to engage for basic home stuff I feel I can defuse her and live a good life, with the ups and downs of course, but good enough.

 Maybe I'm delusional or whatever, but I want her with me and I know nobody will take a bf seriously but they'd have to listen to her husband. I know her family is not there for her, she hinted at abuse, friends she described as "people I used to go out drinking with", only comfort she knows is work, she works with horses so that's the therapy she knows, keeps her centered and focused, her pride and joy.

Therapy is also another thing. I read a lot about it and have learned to defuse thanks to it, she's less rage prone, "she's nicer" (her words again), she has better boundaries, she respects mine (for the most part) and has others respect her own, still pushes peoples buttons but mine are now so desensitized (in the time I met her I also learned to stand up against my anger issues dad, we have a good relationship now based on mutual understanding, I had to do a lot of resilience work on myself and my own self esteem, the attack was not directed at me but at the situation) that she can't trigger me with those.

Like she said, whatever I'm doing is working, I know im no therapist but when you deal with any "illness" you become an expert on it, I know who to call in case of emergency but I can manage the maintenance and lifestyle changes it has required, for me and for her.

I joked with her about it, before this last time when we got really serious whenever her surprise about these issues getting better would come up I'd tell her "now imagine what we could do if we we're actually a thing".

I know I created more expectations but I know I can deliver, I just need her to engage and not run away. I have a good job and future prospects but time is not on my side, at least I feel that way.

The silence is killing me man (figuratively, I know better) haha please advice, standing by.

[once removed]

I actually wish I was in that situation so she'd stay with me haha

I am considering asking her to marry me.

these might be hail mary's, itsmeSnap. they arent problem solvers, and theyre really significant decisions and investments.

we have a good relationship now based on mutual understanding

"now imagine what we could do if we we're actually a thing".

i dont see the foundations for a good relationship. as i said, it doesnt strike me that the two of you have found your footing, so to speak. i would think building that foundation should come first.

i know that doesnt help your circumstances in the moment.

The silence is killing me man (figuratively, I know better) haha please advice, standing by.

its been about ten days since you reached out, right? when this has happened before, you usually let it blow over, and it does, but can take a while, right? you know her best... .do you think it would hurt to reach out?

[itsmeSnap]

Hello again once removed

This will probably sound very defensive so bear with me, its a bit frustrating to just have people tell me what is wrong and not how to solve it, its not directed at you, I'm frustrated with the whole situation (just like dad did I guess haha I am his son after all)

Its not in the short term that I'm considering a relationship with her, much less to get her to "have me back", like I said there are some things that I need settled first and I'm working on those.

But in the long term it is a real possibility I'm considering, commitment, investment and all.

The relationship I was talking about "mutual understanding" was with my dad. Did you mean I also seem to not have a good foundation in that relationship?

Could you elaborate about what a good foundation would be? I might be tunnel-visioned on this one so please explain, there seems to be something I'm missing.

I tried reaching out to her today (had another friend reach out as I am still blocked just about everywhere, I don't know if she got the message), no answer yet. Only thing I can think to "reach out" after this is drop by her work, which I do not want to do. It's intrusive and may cause her trouble beyond our relationship, and I don't want to come off as the stalker ex that won't leave her alone.

Before, it usually blows over after a few months, she'd add me back, I'll comment on it, she won't remember what causer her to break up with me, I'll remind her about BPD, she'd say to explain it again, she'll be like "oh... " And then a good three weeks, then back to radio silence.

I need a way to get her to reach out sooner, its always a very intense fight/breakdown with someone else that causes her to reach out to me again. She'd never mention it to begin with, she's not asking to be rescued outright, but it comes up after in conversation.

I don't like to just keep waiting for her to be hurt again by some idiot future exbf, maybe I was the idiot ex?. That sounded angry haha, just frustrated is all.

So right now I'll wait, whatever happens is ok. as others have pointed out elsewhere its very likely she'll just come back out of the blue pretending nothing happened, I want to be ready for when she does, to have a New Plan.

Any advice?

[once removed]

bear with me

bear with me too. im not listening or expressing myself very well today  

The relationship I was talking about "mutual understanding" was with my dad. Did you mean I also seem to not have a good foundation in that relationship?

no. i misread, and took that out of context.

Any advice

the point im trying to make is three fold:

1. there is not really any such thing as advice in the short term, because as you understand, you cant make her talk to you, and nothing can really happen until she does. theres really nothing you can do to make her reach out sooner - there are tricks like posting a lot on social media and looking like youre up to a lot - that wont achieve anything if youre blocked, unless she happens to be going around the block and peeking, which is possible.

what is of real value is to learn the tools here, and begin practicing them with everyone you know, because you will need them when/if you hear from her, and afterward. additionally, filling up your life, becoming the best version of yourself, will not only help pass the time, but they will be attractive.

Could you elaborate about what a good foundation would be?

- the two of you have not been "official" (all in)
- the two of you have been on and again and off again
- the last time the two of you were on again, the stakes were at their highest, and things fell apart

something has to happen that didnt happen in the beginning: connection. trust. a period of relative stability.

how do you build those things with her specifically? thats difficult to advise given the present circumstances, and without taking into account the dynamics between the two of you.

commitment phobia manifests in not always obvious ways. to me, jumping all in to a relationship and then quickly backing out of it signals commitment phobia. to me, when youre getting closer, fearing that things are too good to be true, and acting on those fears signals commitment phobia. call it what you will, and correct me where im wrong, but these are opposing approaches/dynamics between the two of you that make a long term connection a challenge.

3. i appreciate that you have given thought to the consequences of marriage or moving in, and that you have determined at least for now that you see those as real possibilities. its good to weigh all of that. i was under the impression that you saw them as the solution, where i think steps 1 and 2 are the priority.

Before, it usually blows over after a few months, she'd add me back, I'll comment on it, she won't remember what causer her to break up with me, I'll remind her about BPD, she'd say to explain it again, she'll be like "oh... " And then a good three weeks, then back to radio silence.

change this approach. it will sound like either blame, or farfetched, or both.

I want to be ready for when she does, to have a New Plan.

yes. specific advice really depends on what she says. it may involve doing a lot of listening. it may involve letting what has happened go entirely. it may involve courting her, spending time together, in order to build that connection. its hard to say. and yes, it will require a long term change in dynamics and approach. shes kinda needy, as people with BPD traits tend to be. youve gotta learn to walk that line between strength/boundaries and a little hand holding/reassurance.

[itsmeSnap]

bear with me too. im not listening or expressing myself very well today

Roger Roger

- the two of you have not been "official" (all in)
- the two of you have been on and again and off again
- the last time the two of you were on again, the stakes were at their highest, and things fell apart

1st: true, but we had both agreed we'd be exclusive with each other. The plan for january included "making it official", she knew about this.

2nd: true, only the first and last time has it been serious, middle was me being an idiot and neither of us saw it as exclusive.

3rd: true again, though I don't know what to make of it. It sounds odd that the relationship felt too good even with all the issues.

1. there is not really any such thing as advice in the short term, because as you understand, you cant make her talk to you, and nothing can really happen until she does. theres really nothing you can do to make her reach out sooner - there are tricks like posting a lot on social media and looking like youre up to a lot - that wont achieve anything if youre blocked, unless she happens to be going around the block and peeking, which is possible.

what is of real value is to learn the tools here, and begin practicing them with everyone you know, because you will need them when/if you hear from her, and afterward. additionally, filling up your life, becoming the best version of yourself, will not only help pass the time, but they will be attractive.

1st (again haha): yeah I get that, I have been reading others living with their partners and it sounded like even living together they can shut down and leave so it was a bit of wishful thinking on my part when hoping living together can make a difference. but we'll see, maybe in the future when/if we've settled in with each other.

2nd: Commitment is something I feel is harder to practice with people I know, otherwise I'd be in a relationship with them and not her.

The bettering myself I'm actually doing, I'm working out, losing a bit of weight (it gets hot in the summer where I live so I overindulged in sweet refreshing drinks haha), I take singing lessons which the "gf" knew about (should I even keep calling her that? like you said we weren't "officially official").

Business is booming, new house is coming along, I keep updated on my field of expertise (control engineering, I know right haha).

Friends I do have issues with since I had a business-with-friends-gone-bad, actually the "friend" and business partner had an affair with the girl I was pursuing at the time so I do know I have trust issues with people around my romantic interests. When I told her he was just "using her" (he was married, pursuing other women, I knew all this and figured it was his life what do I care, until I found out she was one of "his girls", she meant nothing but a "sexcapade" to him but obviously didn't want to let her go), she confronted him and he lied to her and she believed it, saw the most horrific panic I have ever seen in her eyes (or anywhere) when it happened, she lashed out at me for trying to "destroy their relationship". It was bad.

But then again, that's in the past (question mark? haha).

I have since focused on just the business side of things and I pretty much only deal with clients so I keep my "professional distance".

My parents are divorcing (anger issues dad + impulsive mom = a lot of fights over nothing, I sound so dismissive haha but that's the life I knew growing up) which I did mention previously, so there's that, but for the most part I have set boundaries about that and not picked sides, they both know I'm there for them but will not let them go past a certain point (as in, pay debts, use my car, deliver messages from each other), I have stepped in to defuse a few "incidents" between them but nothing major, they were just being annoying with each other.

When we were on good terms I never had a problem being romantic with the gf, I loved it, she seemed to love it too (I know they mirror a lot in seducer mode but still). Maybe the issue I had is with her being not "my girlfriend" but my "girl friend" if that makes any sense?

So other than that everything is pretty much in order, which is why I was and still am considering a serious relationship, as in marriage. Just need time to let things fall into place, and that quite possibly involves her too.

specific advice really depends on what she says. it may involve doing a lot of listening. it may involve letting what has happened go entirely. it may involve courting her, spending time together, in order to build that connection. its hard to say. and yes, it will require a long term change in dynamics and approach. shes kinda needy, as people with BPD traits tend to be. youve gotta learn to walk that line between strength/boundaries and a little hand holding/reassurance.

I'll look into CBT and DBT a bit more, maybe I can piece together something useful. I'm an engineer so I do a lot of "pen and paper process tests" before sending something into "production" ie. a "real world situation", hopefully next time I can be better prepared.

Will keep you posted. Thanks for the support, I really appreciate it.

[once removed]

2nd: Commitment is something I feel is harder to practice with people I know, otherwise I'd be in a relationship with them and not her.

have you looked into attachment styles?

anything line up here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=279028.0

I take singing lessons which the "gf" knew about (should I even keep calling her that? like you said we weren't "officially official").

call her what you wish; i get it. my point is more about the level of commitment and investment. ive dated girls unofficially, and found i was far more invested than they were. it takes communication and effort to be on the same page with any partner, and even then we cant always get it right.

I have trust issues with people around my romantic interests

navigating relationships (of all kinds) is a lot easier when we have trust and confidence in ourselves. a member here once said that good boundaries are about having a relationship that is safe and works. that can sound simplistic, but i think its universally true. if we are living our values, we are living authentically. if we are living interdependent values with people we are in relationships (of any kind), we are building and maintaining trust. if we have tools in our tool belt, we know how to resolve conflict in a mature way AND grow relationships. thats just scratching the surface (the karpman drama triangle might have helped in the example you gave), but it all builds on itself; its a lifestyle, one that can enrich our relationships and our lives. people will disappoint and hurt us. conflict will happen and we wont always get it right. if we let a fear of any of that rule us, we miss out.

My parents are divorcing (anger issues dad + impulsive mom = a lot of fights over nothing, I sound so dismissive haha but that's the life I knew growing up)

i didnt catch that earlier (i had a lot of days last week where i wasnt listening so well). thats got to be a blow at any time in a persons life, and certainly right now.

I loved it, she seemed to love it too (I know they mirror a lot in seducer mode but still).

we all mirror. a lot of us though, have a level of dependency on/in that mirroring, and invest a lot in it, as do our partners.

I'll look into CBT and DBT a bit more,

for you, or for her?

[itsmeSnap]

have you looked into attachment styles?

Heard of it, will look into. At first glance it seems like a mix of secure and avoidant, with her definitely being anxious. I have communicated the issues and don't play games with her (not that I've realized) but it seems like deep down I do avoid, that paranoid thought moment was really weird and I haven't been able to get it out of my mind; not the doubt itself mind you, that's resolved, but the "experience of doubting".

navigating relationships (of all kinds) is a lot easier when we have trust and confidence in ourselves

yeah I get that, reality is that I thought I was confident in how this relationship was progressing and then the paranoid moment struck me, now I'm back to thinking I'm confident after it passed but its weird that, and I don't know if I should even call it like this, one can "lie to yourself" so much that such a visceral reaction comes to the forefront letting you know you really weren't that confident.

if we have tools in our tool belt, we know how to resolve conflict in a mature way AND grow relationships. thats just scratching the surface (the karpman drama triangle might have helped in the example you gave)

I just read some on the karpman triangle, is it a tool or a dysfunctional but "stable" model? sounds like both tbh haha

i didnt catch that earlier (i had a lot of days last week where i wasnt listening so well). thats got to be a blow at any time in a persons life, and certainly right now.

I might have written that in another post/reply, but its out there haha so no worries.

for you, or for her?

I guess both, but mostly for me. That paranoid thought is a sign of something unresolved, I want to deal with it.

Now I'm not expecting her to come back at all, chances are she might but I won't expect it, whatever happens. Her friends won't talk to me, she won't talk to me, like I said other than dropping by unannounced to her workplace and possibly have the cops called on me if she has a crisis, I'm out of options, so I won't try anything else right now.

So I'll just hang out here, live life and wait. Probably start a new thread if anything else happens, I noticed there's a reply limit and it gets tough keeping up with long threads.

By the way, if in the future (not right now so please don't delete this haha) how long do these threads stay "archived"? I haven't found an option to delete a post or reply so I was wondering if I would have to ask someone if that were ever the case?

Anyway, thanks for the support.

[once removed]

I have communicated the issues and don't play games with her (not that I've realized) but it seems like deep down I do avoid, that paranoid thought moment was really weird and I haven't been able to get it out of my mind; not the doubt itself mind you, that's resolved, but the "experience of doubting".

these things arent always intuitive. for example, i displayed an insecure attachment style in pretty much all of my romantic relationships. so i found a partner that on some level i believed was incapable of leaving, and i kept a foot out the door for a lot of the relationship. abandonment fears manifest in different ways.

I just read some on the karpman triangle, is it a tool or a dysfunctional but "stable" model? sounds like both tbh haha

it isnt a tool per se, so much as a blueprint for fanning drama/conflict vs resolving it in a mature way. its a blueprint for human nature, really, and a lot of, if not all of the tools here really build off of it. for example, one might use the communication techniques to resolve conflict rather than escalating it. or they might get better in touch with their values and boundaries and whether or not theyre living them. or... .

I guess both, but mostly for me. That paranoid thought is a sign of something unresolved, I want to deal with it.

as our article on Wisemind (our number one tool https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind) says, we all, over time, develop patterns and habits (either in our thinking or actions or both) that do not serve us well (although in some cases, we developed them at a time when they seemed to work, so we stuck with or doubled down on them). especially in the early stages of a relationship, i can still get pretty anxious... .i can name that anxiety and tame it... .push back on it... .i cant necessarily make it completely go away, but it certainly doesnt rule me, or my actions.

Now I'm not expecting her to come back at all, chances are she might but I won't expect it, whatever happens. Her friends won't talk to me, she won't talk to me, like I said other than dropping by unannounced to her workplace and possibly have the cops called on me if she has a crisis, I'm out of options, so I won't try anything else right now.

its a hard place to be, and its good that youre not overstepping or doubling down. filling up the time can either have a way of the outcome we are hoping for happening sooner, or changing our hearts. its time you can use, in preparing for either outcome.

So I'll just hang out here, live life and wait. Probably start a new thread if anything else happens, I noticed there's a reply limit and it gets tough keeping up with long threads.

By the way, if in the future (not right now so please don't delete this haha) how long do these threads stay "archived"? I haven't found an option to delete a post or reply so I was wondering if I would have to ask someone if that were ever the case?

a good rule of thumb is dont post anything youre going to regret posting