Feeling OG (obligation and guilt)

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hello everyone,

I’m feeling OG, like FOG without the fear ;

I’m already moved from the home we shared, and we are getting closer to my husband moving into his own home.  I had moved a lot of stuff from the house in basically one weekend in the spring when he was out of town.  He has yet to
pack up anything and he just scatters the mail around the house without opening it.  Almost everything, in the way of paperwork, I can access online.  The water bill comes in paper to the house and he doesn’t even look at it, but expects me to pay it.  We have been halving the bills.  

He tells me I have to come over there and help sort out the mail, and help him set up his computer and printer.  I
Have been over there several times and each time I get there feeling pretty ok and not anxious, but within 10 minutes more or less, I am feeling anxious, frustrated, guilty, and sad.

I try to focus on the task at hand, but he wants to discuss things.  I don’t see the point in discussing things, but he inevitably tells me that I just walked out on him and left him with everything to deal with.  That I want him to commit suicide, that when he was depressed and suicidal when we were together I did nothing.  I don’t agree with his side of events, but he wants to know why, “why didn’t you do something to help me?”  I did try to help him, but was very overwhelmed and didn’t know what to do, but what is the point of repeating that over and over?  Sometimes I want to disappear.  

It makes me want to question myself and then I just feel like maybe I should have done something different, maybe I was wrong, maybe I am more to blame for our problems than I feel.  I was feeling this way a lot, but when I am not with him now, I am feeling better about myself.

I don’t understand how he still holds such power over me.  I’m hoping that anyone who has experienced these thoughts or similar will tell how you got past the OG.

Mustbe

[Mustbeabetterway]

A little debrief of my earier post above.  I’m going to add that even though all of the above is very frustratingi, I am able to come back to baseline pretty quickly.  I was able to maintain my composure for the most part and leave the house telling him goodbye as I left.

I think this is a sign that I am feeling significantly detached enough to be able to calmly leave the situation without feeling as if I needed either stay or return to fix the problem. I think the key in the post above is “when I am not with him now, I am feeling better about myself.”

[Mutt]

Hi Mustbeabetterway,

I think that staying away is going to help you a lot self protection is a buffer that protects you from FOG there are some huge transitions underway he doesn’t like it you’re not responsible for someone else’s feelings or happiness you have to maintain both on your own it has to come from you.

It’s always someone else’s fault with a pwBPD he wants someone else to fix and repair his problems that will temporarily patch things up but the problems keep coming back he has to be self dependent.

You’re not responsible for his disorder even though he has has an obligation to take care of himself and work towards making himself feel better. You need time behind you and self protect from him.

[Lucky Jim]

He tells me I have to come over there and help sort out the mail, and help him set up his computer and printer.

Hey Mustbe, You don't really "have to" go over there to help him sort mail or set up his computer & printer, so I'm wondering if you are doing it out of O & G?  He is perfectly capable of sorting his own mail, right?  In my view, it would probably be healthier for both of you if you let him sort his own mail and deal with his computer himself.  What are you getting out of it?  Presumably there's a reason why you feel obligated to do these tasks for him.

That you are able to return to center with ease afterwards is a good sign to me.

LuckyJim

[Mustbeabetterway]

Thanks, Mutt and LJ thank you both for responding.  I had been  WOE for so long that it’s ingrained for me to feel anxious when I don’t comply with something he wants.  I logically know that I don’t “have” to set up his computer

Living separately, having my own space has helped a lot because not being physically present prevents me from feeling like I “have” to do things.

Definitely, it would be healthier for both of us to take care of our own selves.  I’m working on that.

Thanks for the feedback and support.

Mustbe

[Mutt]

WOE for so long that it’s ingrained for me to feel anxious when I don’t comply with something he wants.

If it helps any one way that I look at it is that a pwBPD are emotionally stunted at the age of a two or three year old and they act out emotionally when they don’t get their way that’s how they are when they want something. Just like a three year old you don’t give in to all of their demands because they’ll know that you’ll react when they have a tantrum you have to defend your boundaries and eventually they’ll get it.

[Lucky Jim]

Definitely, it would be healthier for both of us to take care of our own selves.  I’m working on that.

Hey Mustbe, Right, it doesn't happen overnight and is something one has to work at.  I get what you mean about feeling anxious when you don't comply with something he wants, because I was once ingrained in a care-taker role during my marriage.  If my Ex said "jump," I said "how high?"  Part of it stemmed from my fear of abuse, rage or a nuclear meltdown!  Maybe you have similar fears?  If so, that would be to be expected.

LJ

[once removed]

I don’t understand how he still holds such power over me
... .
I’m going to add that even though all of the above is very frustratingi, I am able to come back to baseline pretty quickly.  I was able to maintain my composure for the most part and leave the house telling him goodbye as I left.

i think its understandable to feel a level of fear, obligation or guilt when it comes to loved ones, romantic, family, whatever. ideally, its not ruling us, but that we are able to see it, name it, detach from it a bit, and respond in the healthiest way. it may always be present, but it does start to lose its pull.

[Cromwell]

 unpackaging these feelings to try and find some rational facts that can prop them up - so far you cant justify them, they dont match up.

its interesting that you feel differently when you are not in close proximity to him - how much of this is down to him triggering a response? In the presence of my ex, or at one stage, just to see her picture could invoke fight or flight firing of neurons, when she was away from me for a week or two, I found breathing space and calm, the trigger was gone and when I really detached properly, it took time but the "feelings" are gone too, I put it down to having her removed as a trigger source to making me feel the ways I did.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Thanks, everyone.  LJ I had such weak boundaries, I never wanted to be thought of as “telling” my husband what to do and consequently, he drank more, partied more than the other guys in our circle and I just basically shrugged my shoulders at it.  One of the husbands apparently told his wife that I didn’t mind if my husband did xyz... .and she said,” well when Mustbe’s husband says jump, she asks how high.”  That hurt because I didn’t look at it that way, although if I ever voiced opposition to his wants, it was war.  I could never win because he was louder, more intimidating and would never give up.  So yes, I had similar fears. 

He has some idea of us working together to move things out of the house because after months of doing nothing about packing his stuff, he is ready to move and sell the house.  Tonight he called and wants me to agree to his plan of getting the rest of our things out of the house to paint and do some repairs.  I’m not going to give in to his coercion.  He can move his stuff on his own.

Every since I left, he had told me you cannot come to the house when I am not there.  It’s my house, too and I have a right to
It, but don’t want to risk a physical confrontation with him. I’m about financially ready to file,  I know that will not be easy, but at least I will have legal legs to stand on. 

Exhausting! I can’t believe I lived with this behavior for so long.

[mama-wolf]

I try to focus on the task at hand, but he wants to discuss things.  I don’t see the point in discussing things, but he inevitably tells me that I just walked out on him and left him with everything to deal with.

It makes me want to question myself

This is the pwBPD rewriting history to make it more palatable for himself... .playing the victim... .casting blame on you and not taking responsibility for himself.  And it sounds like your inner critic is cut from the same cloth as mine, trying to fill the absence of this constant pressure when you are away from it.  But it also sounds like that inner critic is getting weaker with time and distance since you are able to get back to baseline faster and feel better about yourself more quickly.  It's encouraging for me at least... .

My ex struggles to fix the most basic things, and she has brought it up a few times.  When she first moved out, we tried taking the kids to dinner after the open house at their school.  uBPDxw mentioned how she still didn't have the tv set up or wifi after a week at her new place and the immediate urge to offer help was so strong for me.  I managed to ignore the implied request and resist responding to it, and she didn't ask for anything else for a few weeks. 

Then when S5 had a cold, she wanted to give him nebulizer treatments but couldn't get the pediatric attachment to work, so could she drop it off at my house for me to take a look at it?  Well, I buckled on that one.  I mentioned it to my T afterwards... .about how I could tell myself it was really for S5, but ultimately I felt the need to help uBPDxw.  My T encouraged me to reserve that time, energy, and attention for people in my life who won't abuse it.

Being apart from uBPDxw has helped me a great deal as well.  Others on this thread have mentioned the triggers, and I feel them big-time when I'm around her... .that uneasiness like I'm doing wrong if I'm not doing something for her.  On top of all the other triggers for anxiety around her emotional volatility... .it really is exhausting!

We nons have a strong caregiver tendency.  I have been trying to be very conscious of when I feel that impulse to do for others, have some awareness of why I feel the need to do it, and at least pause (however briefly) to decide whether I should follow through on it.

Tonight he called and wants me to agree to his plan of getting the rest of our things out of the house to paint and do some repairs.  I’m not going to give in to his coercion.  He can move his stuff on his own.

Good for you!  It can be really hard to say no to them.  I find that I have to keep consciously reminding myself (and sometimes my T has had to do so as well) that I am dealing with another adult who has to be accountable for her own choices.

I hope things go well with filing... .

mw

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Mustbe,
Just wanted to say I can relate and empathize with you. Sometimes the O and G persist even if the F element has lessened or been removed.

Living with emotional manipulation and abuse for so long has lasting effects, part of which are the automatic inclinations to take responsibility when it doesn't belong to us. I had (and still have, though I am working on it) very poor boundaries too. I really fed in to the blame and guilt game and it was not hard for uBPDh to convince me that I should be "helping" him with just about everything, even when there was an (albeit small) Voice of Reason inside me telling me he was expecting too much and taking advantage.

I found myself shouldered with everything from laying out his work clothes, waking him up for work (not too passively, because then he wouldn't get up in time and so it was my fault he was running late, and not too forcefully, because then I had a b@#&!y attitude and it was my fault he was in a bad mood), to calling the insurance company to file his claims of injury, to making his doctor appointments, to talking to HIS attorney and the staff at the children's center to set up visitation for HIM to see the kids... .it goes on and on.

If I had not gone NC recently, he would still be doing this. My job to make sure he has food, my job to make sure he can pay his rent and not be homeless, my job to make sure he has lunch for the week, my job to make the depression go away... .

I found that meeting the perceived need was more to alleviate my own anxiety about the outcome if I didn't meet the needs, and also to make the guilt and obligation pressure stop.

Since going NC this has lessened considerably. I have urges to still try to fix things for him, even though I am not in contact, but, like you, I get back to baseline quicker.

I also deal with the rewriting of history to paint me as the cold-hearted person who gave up on the marriage and suddenly cut contact with no explanation or justified reason. He is the broken hearted victim who just keeps praying for God to bring his family back. All he wants to do is help me. He hopes that I get better and he forgives me for the lies I have told and the mistakes I have made.

It is crazy making, for sure.

Hang in there, Mustbe, and hold on to the truth, no matter how distorted his version is.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Lucky Jim]

I’m not going to give in to his coercion.  He can move his stuff on his own.

Hey Mustbe, Good, hold your ground.  I had poor boundaries, too, so I get it.  In my experience, those w/BPD will often claim there is some emergency or other drama which requires your immediate assistance, so be ready for that.  If you decline to respond to the crisis, you will often find out that it wasn't really an emergency.  In other words, those w/BPD like to Cry Wolf.  Your task is to ignore it.

LJ

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Mustbe,

It's great to hear you standing strong!  You've had some great replies from everyone else already.  I'm here to join the rest of the poor boundaries gang and say that it was super tough for me to disengage from helping my dBPDex too, even after I had him removed from my property for my own safety.  Twenty months on and reading this back now I feel disbelief at that level of OG.   

After a while I had strengthened my resolve and come to the conclusion that 1. he was a grown adult and could help himself and 2. there was always somewhere else he could turn - whether that be a friend, family member or worst case (if all of the above were as burned out as I) paying a professional to do whatever 'it' was at the time.  So my not agreeing to do 'it' did NOT leave him high and dry.  I am not the only person in the world who can do this brand of 'it'.  Oh yes and 3. the requests would never stop if I continued to satisfy them.  One look in the mirror showed me that it was not doing me any favours to carry on as I was! 

I don’t agree with his side of events, but he wants to know why, “why didn’t you do something to help me?”

This just goes to show how we can be so trained to accept a distorted reality.  The real question is, why didn't he do something to help himself?  Any time you begin to feel responsible for things that are not yours to own, remind yourself of that.  One other thing to add is this.  If you do backslide, go easy on yourself.  That is not letting yourself down.  It is a healthy reminder of why you're moving forwards down this path and not heading back to where you were.  You got this   

Love and light x     

[CryWolf]

It makes me want to question myself and then I just feel like maybe I should have done something different, maybe I was wrong, maybe I am more to blame for our problems than I feel.  

I don’t understand how he still holds such power over me.  I’m hoping that anyone who has experienced these thoughts or similar will tell how you got past the OG.

Mustbe

Hey there, youre not alone in feeling like this. I, myself question myself at times and wonder if I was more to blame and I become too hard on myself. Its difficult, but you did the best you could in the situation with the tools you had at the moment.

The power they seem to have comes and goes based on how we feel. I feel a lot of is has to do with trauma bonding. I seek a lot of validation from my ex. and I have to question myself why at times before I become fixated on it. I think it has to do with the amount of closeness that happened and was so unhealthy looking back. I still feel she has control over me, but it has to do with my own thinking and why I make it seem relevant in my head.

Theres no time limit on the healing process. after being manipulated for so long and gas lighted takes a toll on our psyche and we question everything. 

you received some good answers here from awesome people, keep us posted please

[Mustbeabetterway]

You’re not responsible for his disorder even though he has has an obligation to take care of himself and work towards making himself feel better. You need time behind you and self protect from him.

Mutt, yes, you're exactly right.  I must self protect from him.  It's up to me to quit feeling responsible for him and to take care of myself.  By trying to "help" I keep putting myself in a bad position.  I think that I mistakenly believed that he would somehow realize that his behavior was out of bounds.  But, in reality I have been neglecting to take responsibility for protecting myself.


 

i think its understandable to feel a level of fear, obligation or guilt when it comes to loved ones, romantic, family, whatever. ideally, its not ruling us, but that we are able to see it, name it, detach from it a bit, and respond in the healthiest way. it may always be present, but it does start to lose its pull.

Yes, OR, it does help to name it and detach from it.  I can already see that it's losing its pull.

its interesting that you feel differently when you are not in close proximity to him - how much of this is down to him triggering a response?

Cromwell, I don't like conflict with him.  Whenever he was angry or unhappy, I would feel very anxious.  But, now that we are not living together, I am not fearing the repercussions as I did in the past.  Although I still get that feeling in my stomach when I see his name light up on my caller ID.  Definitely

I also deal with the rewriting of history to paint me as the cold-hearted person who gave up on the marriage and suddenly cut contact with no explanation or justified reason. He is the broken hearted victim who just keeps praying for God to bring his family back. All he wants to do is help me. He hopes that I get better and he forgives me for the lies I have told and the mistakes I have made.

It is crazy making, for sure.

Hang in there, Mustbe, and hold on to the truth, no matter how distorted his version is.

Redeemed, I know you have dealt with a lot of the stuff I have and more.  You are very brave!  Yes it is crazy making.  I am holding on to the truth.  Sometimes it is easier than at other times.

 

It's great to hear you standing strong!  You've had some great replies from everyone else already.  

  One other thing to add is this.  If you do backslide, go easy on yourself.  That is not letting yourself down.  It is a healthy reminder of why you're moving forwards down this path and not heading back to where you were.  You got this    

Thanks, HQ.  I have had some great replies.  I so much
appreciate the support.  It is invaluable.  I am moving forward and even though sometimes it two steps up and one step back, I am still moving in the right direction. 

Hey there, youre not alone in feeling like this.

Theres no time limit on the healing process. after being manipulated for so long and gas lighted takes a toll on our psyche and we question everything.  

you received some good answers here from awesome people, keep us posted please

Thanks, CryWolf.  It helps very much to know I am not alone.    I have received some good answers from awesome people.  I keep telling myself that this is my journey and it takes as long as it takes.  Thanks for reinforcing that! 

Mustbe

[Mustbeabetterway]

This is the pwBPD rewriting history to make it more palatable for himself... .playing the victim... .casting blame on you and not taking responsibility for himself.  And it sounds like your inner critic is cut from the same cloth as mine, trying to fill the absence of this constant pressure when you are away from it.  But it also sounds like that inner critic is getting weaker with time and distance since you are able to get back to baseline faster and feel better about yourself more quickly.  It's encouraging for me at least... .


Being apart from uBPDxw has helped me a great deal as well.  Others on this thread have mentioned the triggers, and I feel them big-time when I'm around her... .that uneasiness like I'm doing wrong if I'm not doing something for her.  On top of all the other triggers for anxiety around her emotional volatility... .it really is exhausting!

We nons have a strong caregiver tendency.  I have been trying to be very conscious of when I feel that impulse to do for others, have some awareness of why I feel the need to do it, and at least pause (however briefly) to decide whether I should follow through on it.

Good for you!  It can be really hard to say no to them.  I find that I have to keep consciously reminding myself (and sometimes my T has had to do so as well) that I am dealing with another adult who has to be accountable for her own choices.

I hope things go well with filing... .

mw

Hi mw,  thanks so much for your response.  I have really struggled with our history because our versions of it are so vastly different.  However, through time and also therapy, I have been able to see that we both have our perspectives and mine is the one that should guide me.  I have often valued his opinion over my own.  I could say a lot more about that, but I think you understand what I am saying.

Like you, I do have strong Caretaking tendencies.  It has been extremely difficult (understatement : ). To learn to politely say no. 

Ah the filing - sigh

Hope you are or have had a great business trip.  Take care,

Mustbe

[Lucky Jim]

By trying to "help" I keep putting myself in a bad position.  I think that I mistakenly believed that he would somehow realize that his behavior was out of bounds.  But, in reality I have been neglecting to take responsibility for protecting myself.

Hello again, Mustbe, Right, you put that so well.  Took me a long time to appreciate that care-taking another is a way to avoid one's own issues.  Like you, I thought there would be a payoff by treating my W with kindness, yet it didn't play out that way.  Sad to say, my loyalty was misplaced with a persecutor.

Yup, it's up to you to take responsibility for protecting yourself, and you're doing it!

LJ

[I Am Redeemed]

 I must self protect from him.  It's up to me to quit feeling responsible for him and to take care of myself.  By trying to "help" I keep putting myself in a bad position.  I think that I mistakenly believed that he would somehow realize that his behavior was out of bounds.  But, in reality I have been neglecting to take responsibility for protecting myself.

I kept believing this too, that somehow he surely would recognize that his behavior was completely unhealthy, inappropriate, and damaging to me.

But either he doesn't see that, or he does on some level but uses disordered defense mechanisms to avoid facing that realization. He projects the responsibility for the relationship breakdown on to me. In other words, he may acknowledge that he "made mistakes" but he focuses on the "problem" as being my "anger, resentment, and unforgiveness." Because I would not agree to even consider reconciliation unless he got treatment for his issues. Without treatment, nothing will change. Even with treatment, nothing may change, or it may not change enough for there to be the possibility of a relationship that is not damaging or unsafe.

I used to think that my loyalty would convince him that he could trust me, that I wanted the best for him. I at least thought he would appreciate the ways in which I tried to help him.

Instead, he just kept trying to glean more and more from me. You would think that someone who had done some of the things to another person that he has done to me would have a "filter" that would prevent them from asking that person, above all people, for help or for favors. Not so. I could spend hundreds of dollars bailing him out of a crisis, and a few days later he would be calling me up again with some new emergency. Big or small, it didn't matter, he just kept coming back to the well and expecting me to draw up the water, no matter how often he drained me.

He says I am the ungrateful one. He gave me his heart, and I should be grateful. Instead, I am an ungrateful (expletive) because I "don't care that he loves me." In reality, he took me for granted and took advantage of me time and again, and then got mad when the well ran dry.

Redeemed

[Mustbeabetterway]

Update:  I have been working on self protecting.  I have really thought about what I need in this situation.  I need to feel safe and financially need to sell the house and pay off common debts. 

Last Thursday, he went out of town.  He hates to be alone and apparently whoever he was meeting had not arrived yet.  I was meeting daughter and granddaughter for dinner.  He texted me, "I hate being alone and I hate my life". I had been reading what to say or not say to a depressed person.  So I hesitantly responded, "I know you feel bad.  These feelings usually pass and tomorrow will be better."  Well he was off and running about how I always diagnose him and don't listen, etc., etc., so I went into the restaurant with my phone on silent.  After dinner I had about 6 texts and several missed calls. His texts were -  I was ignoring him, I always turn my back on him.  Finally, he said he hoped I have to clean up after him whenever he kills himself.  I'm paraphrasing that, but very upsetting.  I just ended the texts with I care, but don't know what to do or say.  Hope your tomorrow is better.

Didn't hear from him again until today when he wants to know when I am coming over to take care of the pool.  Apparently he has let the pool go.  And he wants to get a "game plan" for selling the house. 

I was proud of myself.  I texted no, I am not coming over.  And the game plan is get needed repairs done and split the cost or sell the house as is.  He then began to call me and I texted that I wasn't going to talk with him.  He asked why not, and I said I didn't want to and that was enough of a reason. 

I didn't want to jade, but knew if I didn't respond that he would continue to contact me. 

I'm planning to contact the attorney this week to start the divorce action.  This is exhausting, but I am finally accepting that I am not responsible for his feelings.

Mustbe

[Harley Quinn]

Mustbe you can be proud of yourself for having such healthy boundaries and holding your ground.  I'm sorry to hear he pulled out the suicide card.  That's really tough stuff to hear.  How do you feel about that?  Has he ever made attempts in the past? Well done for the way you're handling things and for protecting yourself as you are. 

Love and light x

[Mustbeabetterway]

Thank you, Harley.  No, he has never attempted suicide.  I know he is depressed and must struggle with these feelings.  I have tried to convince him to see a therapist, but he has not.  I feel awful for him that he goes through these feelings, but on the other hand, it is awful for me to be the one he says these things to.  It has affected my health and my day to day existence.  So I have decided not to be on the receiving end of these conversations if I can avoid it.

Peace to you, 

Mustbe

[mama-wolf]

Update:  I have been working on self protecting.  I have really thought about what I need in this situation.  I need to feel safe and financially need to sell the house and pay off common debts. 

I was proud of myself.  I texted no, I am not coming over.  And the game plan is get needed repairs done and split the cost or sell the house as is.  He then began to call me and I texted that I wasn't going to talk with him.  He asked why not, and I said I didn't want to and that was enough of a reason. 

Good for you, Mustbe! 

I know how hard it is not to respond to the attempts to draw us in.  You absolutely should feel proud of yourself for identifying what you need and staying focused on that!

mw

[Lucky Jim]

I feel awful for him that he goes through these feelings, but on the other hand, it is awful for me to be the one he says these things to.  It has affected my health and my day to day existence.  So I have decided not to be on the receiving end of these conversations if I can avoid it.

Hey Mustbe, That sounds like progress to me.  I'm sorry to hear that he has threatened suicide, which I regard as the ultimate manipulation.  I should know, because my BPDxW threatened suicide many times.  Twice I went to the local hospital and met with folks in the behavioral health unit, because I had no idea what to do.  On one hand, I was pretty sure my W was just crying wolf; on the other hand, I knew that a small percentage of those suffering from BPD actually carry out suicide threats.  It was extremely stressful and upsetting.

I'd like to echo Harley and say give yourself credit for keeping healthy boundaries.

LuckyJim

[Mustbeabetterway]

Thanks, LJ.  Can you share what the mental health people told you?

He was just now calling me and wanting me to come over and help him organize his stuff to move and for some reason he is concerned about things in the attic which are just things like old Christmas decorations, etc.  I told him that I wasn't coming over and he needed to move his stuff and then we could see what to do with the rest.  I had to say, "We are split up.  It's not my responsibility to help with your things."  That was hard and I felt cold hearted, but I don't think I have really said that in a way that he understands.  It's time.

Any of you have a spouse that refused to accept that you are not getting back together? 

Mustbeabetterway

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, Mustbe,

As you have probably surmised, there is no magic bullet.  The mental health folks advised me to encourage my Ex to see a T, which I did.  Trouble is, my Ex would drop out after a few visits, making up various excuses why she didn't like the T.  One time I called her T after one of her suicide threats.  The T chastised me for reaching out behind my Ex's back.  Finally, the pressure built up to the point that I told my Ex's family (her father and brother) about the threats, which was probably a bad idea but I was overwhelmed and grasping for straws.  I never called the Suicide Hotline, but that is another option. 


The knowledge that someone is thinking about killing him/herself is a terrible burden, as you are aware.  I get anxious just recalling those episodes and am so sorry that you are encountering this issue.  I'm happy to help in any way that I can.

LuckyJim

[Mustbeabetterway]

Thanks, LJ.  I’m sorry that this caused you to feel anxious.  I always appreciate your responses.  I have talked about it with his brothers, but they don’t know what to do and he doesn’t want to hear from them anyway. 

I am not the kind of person who wants to hurt anyone and this is difficult.  I think he has always been struggling inside, but I guess the details of everyday life kept me from seeing the big picture (the depth of his problems).  Kind of can’t see the forest for the trees thing.

Anyway , thank you again for your concern.  It helps to know people are listening and have been able to work through these things.

Mustbe

[Harri]

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