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Author Topic: Words and their true meaning: empathy vs compassion  (Read 582 times)
Libra
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« on: November 06, 2018, 03:08:52 AM »

Hi,

Going back to a thread Harri started a while ago on Resiliency (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329345.0;all), I had some trouble understanding some  of the terminology being used:
Excerpt
Empathy:  To become a survivor, one must demonstrate both awareness and empathy.
Compassion and love for self and others:  The victim’s psychological, philosophical and spiritual interpretations of his or her traumatic experiences are critical, often overlooked parts of the recovery process.

This is still bugging me a bit, so instead of pondering about it on my own, I thought maybe some fellow members might like to join a little discussion. 

As stated in the original thread:
Excerpt
I don’t really understand what it means. What is the difference between compassion and empathy?  Is this the same as Radical Acceptance?

Thank you for joining in!

 

Libra.
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« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2018, 04:21:08 AM »

Libra what a great topic. Empathy for me, is one of the big differentiators between BPD , PTSD and Bi-Polar. All three are commonly mixed, but only a BPD has no empathy.

Empathy (to me), is the ability to know how someone else might feel, someone with a different belief system. A NPD might guess what we may do, but not how we feel.

Compassion Is about being motivated to help or care for. I note your definition includes self love – that didn’t occur to me because I’m a child of a BPD. Iol. Technically a NPD shows compassion for themselves, without any empathy and hence they are distinct terms.
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Libra
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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 12:15:46 AM »

HappyC,

Thank you for you input!

To be clear, the definitions I gave were the ones listed in the original thread on Resiliency. They are not mine. I have difficulty  understanding these words. Hence this thread.

I think we have the same interpretation on empathy: being able to see something from someone elses' perspective and being able to 'imagine' how they might feel about something.
I struggle with the compassion though. For me compassion is really close to pitty. And so self-compassion would mean feeling sorry for yourself. I don't think that is what they mean when talking about resiliency though.

So what is it then, in the context of these boards? Is it truly accepting what happened? Embracing the fact that your past has affected you and that you still carry this with you in the present? That your pwBPD is who he/she is, and that you cannot change them?  If that is it, then what is the difference with Radical Acceptance?

Libra.


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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2018, 02:29:33 AM »

For me compassion is really close to pitty. And so self-compassion would mean feeling sorry for yourself.
Compasion is born of love, pitty is not. Pitty is more towards contempt “I pitty the fool” according to Mr T. You could argue that as a BPD does not love in the way we do, they don’t have compassion, but for themselves.

The bit my BPD foxed me most with, was the fact she repeated the word love over and over, but didn’t act as if she loved. There was compassion for herself (she wants us to think she loves) but none for us kids. The closest she got was pitty.

This forum taught me that we BPD children struggle with self love, and that a bit of Narcissum is necessary, to ensure we look after ourselves. Before, I rejected anything like my BPD mother, so thought self love was vain. I then realise this dislike was dysfunctional, a modicum of self love is essential for self preservation. Then I started repeating positive statements to myself , as recommended by my T (Mrs T), nothing happened. But over the months I now notice an improvement.  To me radical acceptance was about not just knowing what was wrong with my BPD, but also what needed changing in me, coupled with the daily exercises and repetition needed to make that change. The old me would have to check my definition of radicall acceptance matched the one in the science books. The new me is confident enought to know folk on here are not BPD like and won’t attack my statement and will show respect. We are part of an awesome tribe. A BPD has no empathy and compassion for others, the folk on here have more than average. I don’t see pitty on this forum. 

I hope this helps, and its born of compassion, because you are a member of my tribe and we look after each other. Does this help ?
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2018, 08:30:20 PM »

Hi Libra,

I'm glad you started this thread, and HC had some awesome answers IMHO. Very self reflective.

To me empathy is when I can enter into another person's feelings along with them and understand what they are going through. I agree with HC that someone with N cannot feel empathy. Here is an example: I told someone (who is N) that I was very sad because a special friend of mine died. He said, "You sure seem sad about your friend dying, but I cannot understand that. I have no comprehension at all." Empathy would say, "It hurts to lose someone that you care about so much. I'm sorry that you are going through this grief and loss."

Compassion is to me a form of love. Quite opposite of the words of 'love' that my uBPDm spoke to me. In the Bible it says that Jesus had compassion on them when he saw the crowds. Matthew 9:36 "Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness. 36 When He saw the crowds, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd."   Compassion seems to be directed towards others (or our inner children!). Empathy seems to be entering in with others.

Radical Acceptance is a way of allowing us to process those things that we cannot fix somehow. It means that I am yielding up my need to be right and it is yielding to a higher purpose. It doesn't mean losing hope exactly. It does mean facing reality and not fighting what we cannot change. Boundaries may need establishing as a part of Radical acceptance.

Wools

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« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 12:14:09 AM »

The literal meaning in the Greek of compassion is to "suffer with." The literal meaning of empathy in the Greek could be interpreted similarly.  So I think that there isn't much difference between the two terms.  It's basically feeling what another is feeling. 

Now compassion and empathy for our own selves? That's a disconnect I've seen on all boards,  and in myself.  I think it's hard to feel these things if we are not emotionally separated from another.
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Libra
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2018, 03:47:28 AM »

Hi HappyC,
Excerpt
Before, I rejected anything like my BPD mother, so thought self love was vain. I then realise this dislike was dysfunctional, a modicum of self love is essential for self preservation.
That is an important realization. I had never looked at it from that angle. I too have issues with self-love, thinking that it is vain, not because my mother was so into self-love (she rather seemed to despise herself), but rather because I was taught I did not matter. It all comes down to the same, I suppose: the parent is solely focused on his/her own self and needs, and we need to re-program our definition of self-care and self-love. Good for you to see through these unhealthy  interpretations and starting to take care of you. Thank you for sharing!

Excerpt
To me radical acceptance was about not just knowing what was wrong with my BPD, but also what needed changing in me, coupled with the daily exercises and repetition needed to make that change.
Putting it into my own words, does this mean you accept your pwBPD is who he/she is and will/can not change, you therefore need to rethink your relationship by setting boundaries and taking care of yourself, or is this way off?

This board is indeed a awesome tribe. One that embraces, accepts and shares its strength to help each of us build our inner strength and grow.

Wools,

Thank you for joining!

If I read correctly, empathy for you means walking alongside someone, understanding how they feel, maybe even sharing the feeling? To me that then sounds very similar to validation? Or is it that you need empathy to be able to validate?

I understand the Radical Acceptance: it is what it is, you need to accept what you cannot change. In the long run Radical Acceptance will indeed help in setting the right boundaries, and hopefully also in letting go of anger, and finding peace within oneself.
Excerpt
Compassion seems to be directed towards others (or our inner children!). Empathy seems to be entering in with others.
Okay, I kind of get this, but I can’t really see how that works. Not by any fault of yours, I am thick-headed and a slow processor. 

Turkish,
Excerpt
Now compassion and empathy for our own selves? That's a disconnect I've seen on all boards,  and in myself.  I think it's hard to feel these things if we are not emotionally separated from another.
I agree. I would like to add that besides being separated, we also need to allow ourselves to feel these things. I think self-love is a prerequisite for self-compassion, and I suspect many of us struggle with that.

Thank you, also for the objective definition of these 2 words. I felt the urge to do some research too, so I scoured the internet for ‘empathy vs compassion’ pages. It was interesting.

The following excerpt seems to summarize the general interpretation:
Excerpt
Empathy is when you try to understand how the particular individual may be feeling. You may very well imagine yourself in the same situation, developing in your mind the same emotions as the person you are feeling empathy for. By showing your empathy, you are creating a passive emotion towards an individual. Although you feel the same emotions, you do not take actions on your feelings; you do nothing to alleviate the emotions of the person you are feeling empathy for.
Compassion is a word used to express the same feeling as empathy. Yet when you feel compassion, you have more of a desire to take action. You can understand a person’s pain. You place yourself in the shoes of the individual, but you feel that you want to achieve more. Compassion is an emotion which calls for action. If a person is distressed you want to provide the individual with comfort; you want to take action to ensure a positive outcome.

Read more: Difference Between Empathy and Compassion | Difference Between www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-empathy-and-compassion/#ixzz5WLZv6Cdk
From what I read on several sites, empathy seems to be perceived as a first step towards developing compassion, but staying with empathy is less healthy, because it leaves you stuck with (often negative) feelings, whereas compassion will drive you to help or comfort the other, thus turning it into a positive energy.
This is all very well and good in a healthy relationship, but I do not think it is a good interpretation if you are interacting with a pwBPD.

Thoughts, anyone?

 
Libra.
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Harri
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2018, 08:46:46 PM »

Hi Libra.  I haven't spent a whole lot of time thinking about the differences between compassion and empathy until now that is! heh heh

Empathy- I liken it to getting down in the trenches with someone and actually sharing their experience/feelings.  Empathy can be selfish and an emotional boundary buster if we are not careful.

Compassion is a way to relate where I can imagine what it is to feel the way they do but I am not actually in the experience.  I can more easily relate to the person because I am not consumed or overcome by emotion.  The desire to help the person for whom we feel compassion can be a boundary buster as well.

BTW, I do believe people with BPD have empathy, very deep empathy.  They have difficulty with the execution or expression of it though.  They become consumed by it and it often becomes all about them.

I think either compassion or empathy can lead to validation but I think compassion allows us to be more genuine in our validation as we are not so consumed by the emotions.  Regardless, both com[passion and empathy can be healthy or unhealthy.  

So that is my take and I think it goes along with what you are saying as well as the others in this thread.  I am open to correction though.

Do you feel more comfortable with your understanding of these terms?  
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2018, 04:58:47 AM »

Putting it into my own words, does this mean you accept your pwBPD is who he/she is and will/can not change, you therefore need to rethink your relationship by setting boundaries and taking care of yourself, or is this way off?

Exactly that Libra.  btw your thread is very thought provoking, good call.

Where empathy becomes blurry for me is a NPD  doesn’t know how we feel, yet they can manipulate us based on our feelings. So they know waif behaviour will trigger our compassion, yet they themselves don’t experience compassion for others. Hence they must know self compassion otherwise how can they manipulate something they don’t understand. But their lack of empathy prevents compassion for others. Yet we children are the other way around. We were brought up to serve our BPD, and hence empathy was encouraged. We are typically high on empathy and low on self love. We need to learn more compassion for ourselves and the NPD needs to learn empathy (yeah right).

BTW, I do believe people with BPD have empathy,
Harri, I understand why you would say this, as a BPD is on the borders and on a spectrum. I'd be interested in any research you know of that explores this point.
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2018, 05:29:10 AM »

At University we studied what made us human. The definition at the time was conscious thought, i.e. the ability to see yourself as a separate eternity in the world.

BPD and NPD see others as extensions to themselves. This is how incest is sometimes explained. So technically they don't fall cleanly into that definition. But the definition was also linked to self preservation of the herd. Stephen Hawkins said, a lack of empathy will end the human race.

Other primates (and whales) are among the few that do have conscious thought, and more sophisticated approach to caring for the herd. Studies show most Dog and Cat owners, personify their pets and believe they do have compassion and empathy. It’s been proven most animals (including cats, dogs ) don’t have this. Even orangutans don't have this (they are not primates). Snoopy and Garfield do though.
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2018, 10:59:03 AM »

Hi HappyC!  I did not mean to challenger your belief so I apologize.  The psychiatric community seems to disagree on whether or not people with BPD have empathy.  What I have read from Linehan, Fruzetti, Porr and others, has given me my understanding of the issue.  I do not have ready research articles to cite here but the people I listed have worked with pwBPD for decades and are IMO the leading experts in the field.  As a result, I give their views greater weight.  At the same time, I do recognize that some people with BPD may have a greater or lesser degree of empathy, but that can be said for the rest of the population.  The point is, we can't really paint an entire group of people with the same brush or just based on our own experiences. 

We can't really look at the outward expression or behavior of an individual  and understand what underlying emotional or cognitive process is  driving those behaviors for an entire group.
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2018, 06:20:34 PM »

Hi Libra,

Excerpt
If I read correctly, empathy for you means walking alongside someone, understanding how they feel, maybe even sharing the feeling? To me that then sounds very similar to validation? Or is it that you need empathy to be able to validate?   

Yes, to answer your first question. It doesn't mean taking their feeling on as a burden however. That's where my learning to be healthier comes in to focus. As to your second question, I can see where empathy and validation seem similar. I would say that empathy can be validating to a person but they are different to me. I don't think you have to be empathetic to validate but it certainly is helpful.

Regarding compassion and how you are having a hard time figuring it out, that's fine. I recall when I began on my journey to understand a particular word/concept. I also went around asking others what their definition was of a particular word. It took me many months of collecting information and pondering before I could really grasp it. You'll figure this out, and you're doing exactly what you are supposed to do.

 
Wools
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2018, 02:55:18 PM »

Hi,

To those who took time to read this thread or to  think about this question, and to those who posted a reply: thank you.
I needed to take some time offline to heal physically (still an ongoing struggle) and to replenish my mental and emotional batteries.
I apologise for not getting back to your replies, but I see now it was an interesting discussion nevertheless.

Harri,
Excerpt
I think either compassion or empathy can lead to validation but I think compassion allows us to be more genuine in our validation as we are not so consumed by the emotions.  Regardless, both compassion and empathy can be healthy or unhealthy. 
Thank you for your view on this. Yes, I think we are on the same page. It's those darn boundaries that need to be strong to keep it healthy.

HappyC,
I have often wondered if my mother 'actively' or 'consciously' acts the way she does. A lot of her actions (still) feel very manipulative, but I'm not certain she 'concocts' her actions. I often think she's driven by some sort of primal instinct instead.
I have a hard time believing she has any empathy, but maybe that's just me trying to protect myself from feeling too much empathy or compassion for her.

Wools,
I guess it does take time, as with everything on this long and winding road to healing and self-respect.
It's funny really, I love stories and reading, and I love language, and here I am trying to teach myself the true meaning behind some pretty basic, important words. 

Again, my thanks for your responses.
I had not forgotten you, bpdfamily.

 

Libra








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HappyChappy
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 03:14:33 AM »

The psychiatric community seems to disagree on whether or not people with BPD have empathy... .The point is, we can't really paint an entire group of people with the same brush or just based on our own experiences. 
Thanks for pointing out the disagreement on empathy. I forget because I've never been able to detect it in my BPD. So maybe its simply evidence BPD is on a spectrum ?

Your second point is also interesting, because we diagnose BPD by treating them in the same way, i.e. identifying clusters of symptoms. But you are right to point out, we should avoid broad brush strokes, but how broad ? There a billions of humans, we quiet naturally group things. And BPD behaviour is more predictable than most.

Libra I have seen examples of planned behaviour from my BPD and often read they plan, even if they also run off lots of impulsive behaviour. A continuous plan repeated over and over, becomes unconscious behaviour at some point, like riding a bike, like gas lighting, etc... .

It does occur that a BPD will believe they feel love, and empathy only their frame of reference will be different to ours in those respects. So we are debating our frame of reference here, maybe theres a site called non_family.com were BPD folk are saying "Whats with these nones, they have no idea how to use love and empathy !"
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