Must take back my "accusation," or else

[SweetCharlotte]

Hi — for those who haven't seen or don't recall my past recent posts, I'm on a 5-week stalemate with my uBPDh of 8 years, commuter marriage, no kids in common (I have S21 in college and D15). I support my family with a slightly higher salary than his, while he supports himself, and pays his past debts of close to six figures.

Our 5-week impasse began when we were texting back and forth as he was taking a train to see me. The train takes over seven hours as it is, and there were heavy delays. I made a slightly raunchy joke that included the V-word, he scolded me that my D15 would be able to see it (sometimes I let her use my phone, but she swears she doesn't read my texts), I blew up at him and called his interest in her obsessive and said I felt like the mom in Lolita. He promptly got off the train at the next station and went back to his home, cutting me off on social media and shared subscriptions and blocking my texts for several days. I took it really hard. When he started sending out his typical reconnection tentacles a few days later, I rejected them. I think it is colder than cold to get off of a train like that and refuse to see one's spouse.

In the interval of 5 weeks, I only texted him a few photos and non-subjective remarks, like where I was, and I emailed him regarding a major furniture delivery I have been trying to arrange for him for months (many mishaps that led to him also breaking off ties with me just two weeks prior to the train fiasco).

Last night I decided it would be a good time for us to have a serious talk. I am still on the fence regarding whether I wish to see him again. I was alarmed by his appearance (it was a video call). He was lying down and his face looked puffy. Emotionally he was completely flat, until he became angry towards the end of the call. I hadn't intended it to go this way, but I basically told him off—that I was tired of the blaming and controlling, that I would do and say as I pleased from here on in *IF* I ever decide to see him again, that I am ready for it to be over if he doesn't wish to cooperate, that he can't use me against my daughter anymore. She can't stand him because of his controlling, manipulative and narcissistic (always has to be right) behaviors. I always stood up for him in the past, to support some sort of fatherly façade of us. Now I am completely on her side, not on his. OK, his turn to talk . . .

And he said that he would not consider seeing me again, and that there would be no demands on my part, unless I retract my "accusation that he is a pedophile." How can I take back something I never said? I do have concerns about his overly controlling behavior toward her, his attitude toward her that is more like that of a rejected boyfriend than a father, and his lack of interest in me (including sexual, lately). That's why I brought up Lolita. So I was not willing to issue a retraction, and he said, "Go ahead and do what you're going to do" (I began a divorce twice during the early years of our marriage; the last time was about six years ago). He then blocked me on social media (before we were just disconnected) and blocked my calls and texts again.

I feel really stupid for having had this conversation with him in the first place. I called him a "crazy person" and "unstable" several times, but managed not to mention BPD (that is completely forbidden). Nothing was accomplished; I'm at the same stalemate, only now I'm looking up DIY divorce. It seems to have gotten a lot easier in the past few years.

Another concern I have is that D15 will be applying to colleges in two years, and they consider parental income from the year before. With his income added to mine, we would get far less financial aid from a private college or university. In addition, uBPDh has never stated that he is willing to help pay for her college expenses. I had her on my own with an anonymous donor, so there is nobody besides me to shoulder the burden (at least with my S21, my ex was paying almost half, and it still almost cleaned me out). Emotionally, I'm a weepy wreck. It seems silly to end the marriage over an accusation I didn't make, and therefore cannot retract, but my self-preservation instinct is telling me that if I tolerate his train ride turn-around, my family and I will be in for even worse in the future.

[SweetCharlotte]

P.S. I looked up pedophilia, and in psychological terms it is the primary attraction to children up to the age of 13 or puberty, whichever comes first. Preference for adolescents and post-adolescents, ages 14-18, is called ephebophilia. So I knew I could not be accusing him of pedophilia, since my daughter is 15. In addition, I was objecting to his obsession with controlling her, not to a suspicion of his having a sexual preference in this age range or wanting to have actual sexual contact with her. It's considered normal for men to feel attracted by late adolescents, but usually it would not be right for them to act on it. That is how I understand the distinction between pedophilia and ephebophilia, though in the media and common parlance everything gets called pedophilia. Of course, to explain all this to him would be too much JADE.

I don't feel comfortable making the retraction also because he has violated so many boundaries with his train ride turn-around and blocking. If the relationship were to continue, he would need to recognize this as wrong, as something a spouse simply does not do to a partner. If I make the retraction, I am just giving in, and asking to be abused like this again. He would be in control after my apology, and I would get no apology from him.

[Notwendy]

Hi Charlotte-

I understand what you meant by the Lolita comment, but it may not have been how he saw it. In the novel, a stepfather has an affair with his young stepdaughter. There may be a strict definition of pedophilia but the term Lolita has been used loosely- as an older man being attracted to a young girl- I don't know of an age limit for that, but 15 is still underage and would fall into that category.

I think the two of you had a misunderstanding. There is a lot going on in your relationship besides the Lolita comment. I get that it feels odd that somehow all the things he is doing are OK and you make one comment and that's the most horrible thing and you must apologize. That's pretty consistent with BPD.

One comment can lead to a large reaction. He decided to get off the train in the moment. That upset you. Now you are both upset and reacting to each other.

To me, in a less dysfunctional relationship, people do make mistakes like saying something in the heat of the moment. Then, when they cool down, they are able to make amends to each other, to clear up the situation. A normal conversation to me would be : "I got upset when you made the Lolita comment" followed by you saying " I didn't mean it that way and I apologize". These kinds of emotional repairs don't seem to happen as well with dysfunctional relationships.

Since you have other concerns in addition to having this one misunderstanding, I think it would help for you to decide what direction you want to go with the relationship. Regardless, you can clear the air on your side for the comment if you choose. That doesn't include allowing abuse.  Making amends is basically for you. He may never apologize but that's his issue.

[Cat Familiar]

I struggle with whether it’s best to bring things up when I’ve said something I later regret or to just move on and let the past be the past.

It seems that with pwBPD, even mentioning a regrettable utterance again can restart an argument, even if one is intending to apologize.

The problem with apologizing for the Lolita comment is that you meant it, maybe not the sexual part, but you did mean that he was paying inappropriate attention to your daughter in ways that bothered you, and her, for that matter.

So it would be tricky to apologize, meanwhile trying to be honest about what you meant, would land you in JADE territory, as you’ve observed.

Even if you did apologize, if he’s like many pwBPD I’ve known, that apology won’t mean that the slight is forgotten. No, it will be used as ammunition against you later.

And of course, it’s unlikely an apology will ever be forthcoming for his behavior.

[Notwendy]

I like the idea of the "making amends" in the 9th step of the 12 step programs.

It basically says "be willing to make amends, and do so, except in the case where making amends may cause harm to you or others".

I think the first part- be willing- is important. Using judgment is also important.

The amends is for us, even though we may not get an apology back. But we also have to use judgement and not create a harmful situation.

[formflier]

Hey... .I hope you can spend a few days focused on self care... .let him do what he does.

  I think it is colder than cold to get off of a train like that and refuse to see one's spouse.

Why did he get off the train?  From your post... it seems obvious it was not because he didn't want to see you.  He was there... he wanted to see you. 

I hope you can challenge yourself to consider his perspective and his options in that moment. 

Is it possible he wanted to do something to preserve the relationship from further damage? 


 

  I hadn't intended it to go this way, but I basically told him off—that I was tired of the blaming and controlling, that I would do and say as I pleased from here on in *IF* I ever decide to see him again, that I am ready for it to be over if he doesn't wish to cooperate, that he can't use me against my daughter anymore.

It seems you are very reactive and are saying things you don't intend.  I hope some self care can get you in a better place.

She can't stand him because of his controlling, manipulative and narcissistic (always has to be right) behaviors. I always stood up for him in the past, to support some sort of fatherly façade of us. Now I am completely on her side, not on his. OK, his turn to talk . . .

I'm concerned there is a triangle here.  This complicates things greatly.

"accusation that he is a pedophile." How can I take back something I never said?

How sure are you that you didn't say those exact words? 

How sure are you that you didn't "imply" this with whatever words you did use?

When emotions are high on both sides... .I would hope you can both listen to "generally" what is being said.

I feel really stupid for having had this conversation with him in the first place. I called him a "crazy person" and "unstable" several times, but managed not to mention BPD (that is completely forbidden).

 
Again... lots of reactivity and things said you apparently didn't want to say. 

Emotionally, I'm a weepy wreck. It seems silly to end the marriage over an accusation I didn't make, and therefore cannot retract, but my self-preservation instinct is telling me that if I tolerate his train ride turn-around, my family and I will be in for even worse in the future.

Again... way too specific.

Is it possible that you said it?  Is it possible that with the emotion of the moment you said things you didn't intend... .and then he (due to his emotions) didn't hear exactly right.

Can you step back for a bit and look at the advice he was apparently trying to give you... .about not wanting your daughter to be exposed to certain kinds of language... .  Is it possible that indicates he cares about her and your relationship?  Is it possible he had good intentions, yet didn't express it as well as he should... or could?

I'm hoping you can slow down and consider the "structure" of the argument you have set up... .

FF

[formflier]

 So I knew I could not be accusing him of pedophilia, since my daughter is 15.

Is it possible he is using a different definition that you?

Did you look this up before you spoke... or after?    Neither of you two (unless I am mistaken) are medical professionals and would likely not be this "precise" in your words.

There is great wisdom in the words of Cat Familiar about bringing up old arguments.

That being said, if you have "structurally" created an argument where one side must completely capitulate while the other side moves nary an inch.  Well... .I can't imagine anything good coming out of that.

After a few days of self care... .can you find a reasonable middle ground.  How about saying what you meant to say (and thinking that through first)... .and letting him know you are interested in listening to what he meant to say.

Perhaps even validate how he could have taken something the wrong way.  Perhaps he would say something similar.

Can we help you craft a succinct statement about what you meant to say?

FF

[SweetCharlotte]

Yes, I had known about the two different kinds of under-age attraction/relationships before, although I don't work in health care. True pedophilia is abnormal, and directed at those under 15 (or prepubescent), while ephebophilia (15-18 year olds) is often illegal and inappropriate but is not pathological. At any rate, I didn't mean to accuse him of either one. I lost my temper when I maintained that my D15 does not read my texts, and he texted back to me, "You are a fool."

Reading back over the texts, I can see how everything I texted after that was colored by the anger from being called a fool by him. I have been feeling more vulnerable than usual because I was demoted at work, and am earning 15% less than before, although I was given time off to work on an independent project. He can't stand the fact that I don't have to report from 9 to 5 like he does. He hates his job. For my part, I am hurting over the loss of income, and the time off feels isolating, so I am very vulnerable. Back when we were in touch (over 5 weeks ago now), he would nag me every day about whether I had made any progress on my project. Of course I am working very slowly because of the isolation, damage to my self worth, and loss of income.

While it's true that he was on the train in the first place because he wanted to see me, he had expressed ambivalence, and it was clear that a devaluation phase had begun. He had canceled, and I said I understood, then he said I didn't seem to care that he wasn't coming, and that he was actually coming after all. He had complained about my cleanliness, so I spent the whole day cleaning in anticipation of his arrival. So when he called me a fool, I felt that it was true—I let him make a fool of me.

Only 2 weeks before that, he had cut off all connections between us when I did not take his advice regarding the furniture refund. He wanted me to obtain a refund from the vendor AND get a charge-back from my credit card company. I decided to only request the charge-back from the credit card company. Otherwise, it seemed duplicitous, like I was looking for double my money back. I was fed up with the vendor, and did not trust the vendor to process a refund in a timely manner after the rigamarole they had put me through. He raged at me that he had worked in retail, and asking for a refund from both was the best way to do it. According to him, I was negating him by not following his advice. I begged him not to cut me off; I was already hurting because of the reasons described above. But he did it anyway—unfriended me on Facebook, Twitter, Find My Friends, Family Sharing, MyFitnessPal, dropped me from his newspaper and media subscriptions, and blocked my calls and texts.

So his cruelty is compounded by my extreme vulnerability. I cannot practice radical acceptance and use the relationship tools as well as I normally do. It has become clear how much our relationship depended on me doing this. In turn, he has increased his abuse because I lost some income and have lots of time off, neither of which is to his liking. The income loss makes him feel insecure (he is in actual danger of eventually losing his job, having gotten some low performance ratings), and the time off makes him feel envious.

I am also less able to control my drinking under current conditions (no 9-to-5 routine, low self esteem, social isolation). He can tell when I am texting "under the influence," as I was on the night of the "pedophilia accusation," because I am less tactful and more reactive.

The consensus seems to be that I should admit that I did not mean to accuse him of pedophilia, if this is how he understood my Lolita reference. However, I'm not ready to expose myself to more of his harshness at this point, and I don't know when I will be ready for it again. The holidays are coming, and he expects to spend them in my home, being his hostile and resentful self around my kids and me. I don't want him around. I will practice self care, like FF recommends—but that means continuing this unhappy holding pattern.

[formflier]

I know you are hurting... .self care x2!

He may be harsh... or he may soften.  You don't control what he does.

He may apologize for the fool reference (and other things) or he may not.  I would encourage you to sort out your behavior and your words based on your values not justify what you do based on the actions of someone else, especially someone else with pwBPD traits.

When you justify yourself based on someone else... .especially someone that behaves worse than you, it's a race to the bottom.

I'm going to give you the same advice based on stuff he says.  Just because he complains about cleaning... .doesn't mean you should clean. 

Clean and organize your house based on... .your values and your reality at the time.  Just a few days ago my place was spotless.  As I type... half the couch is covered in clean laundry... that needs to be folded and sent to rooms.  I have 8 kids... .it's a big pile of laundry. 

Am I correct that you figured by cleaning... .he might be "happier" with you?  I'm sure it was a disappointment it didn't work out that way.
 
   

"Emotional leadership" falls to you in this relationship.  Perhaps sending him a quick email note that clarifies your intent with "ita" and also gives yourself space... .

"Hey... .I want you to know I said things in anger that I didn't mean.  I didn't intend you to believe I thought you were a pedophile and I don't think you are a pedophile.  I'm going to take a few days to recover from the harsh words that are between us... .then I hope we can find time to talk."

Notice that you identify an issue that is a wedge in your relationship... .yet you don't accuse him of putting it there.  That gives him a better chance to own it... .  If you "tossed it at him"... .he would likely run.

 

This is hard stuff... .

FF

[SweetCharlotte]

It seems that with pwBPD, even mentioning a regrettable utterance again can restart an argument, even if one is intending to apologize.

The problem with apologizing for the Lolita comment is that you meant it, maybe not the sexual part, but you did mean that he was paying inappropriate attention to your daughter in ways that bothered you, and her, for that matter.

I gave him a semi-apology, that I had not meant to imply that he was a pedophile, but I also stood my ground about believing my daughter rather than him whenever there is a discrepancy. It did not go over well. So now I have lost the upper hand; he is not trying to contact me and has me blocked in every way possible. The furniture I bought him was finally delivered, so that issue is done, and I thought that we would be able to spend time together again. However, it will now be wait-and-see for me. I will post when there is a new development. I am going to keep up with self care (it is restful to have a vacation from him) and try to get work done on my project.