Done with XL

[1stTimer]

This is like some bad movie with Alex Baldwin.

Checked weChat tonight before deciding like an idiot WHICH smiley face to reply to her 'Thank you so much. I miss you" text so I could keep it light while figuring out how and if next steps.

Not sure if anyone remembers the post she made on Monday, basically pics of her with her hottie young sister in their $290K Ferraris on a shopping spree in down town Chengdu fashionistas to the gils, $50k in clothes on their back as much in their hands.

Tongigt starts off with a dozen tuxedo'd men with white loves in a skyscraper ballroom, 20 wome in white silk dresses, her in the middle in some china print dress, some tall american guy behind her. They are posing in some other picture than a $10,000 plate dinner for 40 people.

This is not the "I'm a childhood teacher" this is a jet setter. She showed me pictures early on of her in Dubai and Sydney and Los Angeles and Hong Kong and I just thought it was some trip.

I'm pretty confident about who I am and what I have to offer but sorry, "I've never met anyone like you before" and "I've never been treated like this" is crap. The whole 'small town Chinese girl meets big city New York man and discovers a whole new life" is crap. I don't know who she is. I don't know why this girl who jet sets and spends more in a day of shopping then I financed my company with needs to meet my mother and pretend it changed her life. I don't know why this girl who jet sets in parties around the globe needed to have all of her friends pretend I changed her life with how I treated her like a 'gentleman' no one ever has.

Something is so unutterably wrong here. The one thing my friend pointed out is that she does not look happy in one single picture. Yet she is glowing in mine.

I'm actually SCARED. Of what was going on, of who she was and what she wanted.

And I wonder now why in hell she replied so fast to get me back to WeChat. She could ahve asked me her questions on her phone chat and then when it goes out next week I'd never be able to find her. A woman named CHANG in China? So did she want me there just to see those events? WHY? I'm already hooked.  What was the set-up? Who was "The Kid"? Why work my mother like that? Why the whole act? Why all the players?

Seriously terrifying stuff. Give me a nice  gfwUBPD any day of the week.

[Turkish]

It sounds like she might feel burdened by that life by what you describe and maybe she wanted to escape or feel something differently. But if you're done,  you're done.  Are you ready to close this?

[1stTimer]

Even if I were not ready to close this it has clearly been closed for many weeks. It is nice to put an innocent spin on this I do not see that at all.  This is just utter disregard for someone's life, and I've said before what bothered me most about that last dinner was not the way she acted but her utter surprise and shock that I removed her from my life because of it.  All the little clues; when she came in my mother's house she had been introduced to my mother all of 15 seconds before she had her friends taking pictures of her with my mother which seemed odd even at the time. Why did she need a record of that? If the flowers I sent embarrassed her because they needed to be kept 'secret' why did she arrange them and take a beauty shot with the scroll I added with her name in English and Chinese?

If I were a rich american she wanted to marry and scam I'd get it. I let her know early on my business was pre-revenue and struggling exactly so she'd know if she were looking for rich american. she stuck around. so not sure what the scam here is.

Only shred of evidence that this might have been anything but a scam is that as my friend pointed out she does not look happy in any of the jet set pictures. Where does she look happy? In the pictures with me. Glowing. But that could just be my own mind playing tricks on me to not have to deal with what just happened here.  Because the girl could have also just disappeared into the middle of China having had whatever fun she wanted and the dumb American guy who fell for her ("look: here are pictures of the flowers the little fool sent and here is a picture with his foolish American mother who thought *I* could really love her son hahahhaa!") would never have been able to find her again. It was done. And she needed me back in weChat?

So yes. Let's just close this. It is a waste of everyone's time, thank you for everyone who has followed, advised, participated. Apologies for any strife it has been a spectacularly confusing situation.

[Insom]

Hi, 1stTimer.  It sounds like you've been feeling a lot lately with lots of ups and downs.   I can relate to what it feels like to struggle with transitions - hello and goodbye - with certain people. 

Have you put any thought into what a graceful end to this relationship experience can look like?

[1stTimer]

Hi, 1stTimer.  It sounds like you've been feeling a lot lately with lots of ups and downs.   I can relate to what it feels like to struggle with transitions - hello and goodbye - with certain people.  

Have you put any thought into what a graceful end to this relationship experience can look like?

Hi Insom thanks. I have tried ending this gracefully a number of times. I got a lot of heat here for my first time when I said, after her either a) confusion/fear or b) disregard/game-playing that I'd had enough, that she said she wanted something special not casual but she was treating it casually and that I could not continue to put my own heart or effort into it then, I wished her a amazing remaining time here, a safe flight and a successful business back home. I also said I was so very glad to have met her and for the time we spent. It was as gracious an end as you can imagine, clearly far more than she deserved.

She didn't take it. We did the dance.

I left a beautiful spray of lavender with a note telling her how much our time had meant and telling her if this was just a summer romance that I would always remember her and it with great fondness. But if she was pulling away because she was scared I would not follow or wait I assured her I would. And ended saying "You said that when God closes a window he opens a door. Your leaving is closing our window. I am just leaving a door for you to walk back through to me whenever you want it". And some other romantic mush.

She didn't take it. She wanted to meet.

She made me wait days.

I sent her a crushed letter about the weeks she had wanted so to spend with me and for me to plan for us with some examples of what I'd planned. And said basically I'll never know what happened, but it is breaking my heart and I need to move on. I WAS going to then block her but my "wise" friends said don't.

So she had us meet at the place we met with a translator to explain her concerns.

At some point I asked him to ask her "Look. I just want to know if we have something special she wants to find a way to continue". To give her another gracious way to exit and myself as well. And yet she said through him yes.

He asked if she could have time to figure out if she wanted to continue the relationship when she left because of the difficulties. And even THEN I gave her an out and said "She doesn't have to make that decision now. I just want to know we have something she wants and we can figure it out slowly". To give her another chance to graciosuly exit back home and let us both leave with some face.

Which is when he said it was important for her to meet my mother. And made that seem like the most important event of her life. But it was nit.

So what is left to me to 'end' this graciously?

I WALKED out on her, I DELETED her since my gracious endings did not work.

And she reached out again.

When she texted me the moment she landed in China, clearly I'm still on her mind she texted me "I didn't want to make you sad".

And I waited a week since I was just going to let it go and finally texted "Mostly you make me happy".

And this girl who can't let this end graciously, who could have let it go at that end I'd have disappeared in 2 weeks when her US phone was shut off and I'd be left looking for a Chang in China, immediatly invited me back to weChat and into her life and had me (again) address all her issues.

So what is left to me?

1) Delete her again?
2) Ignore her weChat? Don't check in each day and see what she's doing since clearly that is all she wants, to torture me.
3) Send some OTHER letter. Nothing has worked. Not gracious doors, not plaintive goodbyes, no angry retreats, not blocking her.

All I can do is go silent, find a way to not check weChat and let her disappear from my mind (somehow, as she is the second woman in my life I loved). I guarantee you she'll still find a way to contact me.

I do appreciate the thought and suggestion and am not trying to  shoot it down, I'm just trying to tell you I have tried more than a few ways to disnegage graciously and otherwise. And still this woman I have not ever had a full conversation with is still engaging with me for some unknown, and I can only begin to suspect nefarious reason.

[Insom]

A friend who is an archer once told me . . . the key to hitting the target is knowing when to let go.  That is the skill and it's something you can hone with training. 

Have you heard the phrase, attachment styles?  It's a concept I first learned about here (that I'm still learning about!) that I've found helpful.  Here is an except from the article linked above:

When couples disagree about the degree of closeness and intimacy desired in a relationship, the issue eventually threatens to dominate all of their dialog. This is called the anxious-avoidant trap. The reason people in an anxious-avoidant relationship find it particularly hard to move toward more security is primarily because they are trapped in a cycle of exacerbating each other’s insecurities. People with an anxious attachment style cope with threats to the relationship by trying to get close to their partner. People who are avoidant have the opposite reaction. They cope with threats by taking measures to distance themselves from their partners. The closer the anxious person gets, the more distant the avoidant acts. One partner’s response reinforces the other’s in a vicious cycle, and they both remain within the relationship “danger zone.”

People with a secure attachment style know how to communicate their own expectations and respond to their partner’s needs effectively without having to resort to protest behavior.

Does any of this connect with you?

[1stTimer]

A friend who is an archer once told me . . . the key to hitting the target is knowing when to let go.  That is the skill and it's something you can hone with training.  

Have you heard the phrase, attachment styles?  It's a concept I first learned about here (that I'm still learning about!) that I've found helpful.  Here is an except from the article linked above:

Does any of this connect with you?

Hi, to be honest no. I tool the Personality Test and rated quite highly in Secure Attachment. I WAS quite secure in my attachment. I communicated when she started 'distancing' (well before there was any of this "conflict") and when she continued to distance I ended it. She did not want that.  Every single step of this dance has her making sure I do not go away but do not get to close. Shame on me for allowing that, I did it because I believed there was something special which there is not.

I didn't try to get closer. I tried to walk away when it didn't feel right.  When I tried to move away she got closer. When I tried to get closer she moved away. I do not believe I am stuck in either avoidant or anxious. I (was) stuck in a cycle where WHATEVER I did got the opposite response.  It is precisely what I said the issue was in the prior threads; she wants me exactly where I am; available while she protects herself. It was unfair when she was here and about to leave, it is inexcusable now that she is 7,500 miles away. Because all I can see now is not that she wants me on a string but for me to know who she REALLY is and I NEVER mattered.

There is no anxious or avoidant for me to do now in any event. I can choose only to ignore her weChat or delete it. Those are my choices.

The right choice was ending it in October (which again I got heat for). And stuck to my guns. The right choice was to stick to my guns the SECOND time I ended it (after she took a week to find the time to discuss the 'window' letter which she professed to love so much and took a Beauty shot of) and blocked her after sending like I planned to. And the right choice was to delete her and stick to my guns then. I don't know what you call that attachment style, I simply kept getting sucked back in because I wanted to Believe. Instead of believing my eyes and my ears and my heart.

I suppose now the plan for her is to hope I'll check in each day and see what new jet setting event she is at and occasionally beg for a bone. She can make a scrapbook with her holding my flowers and smiling with my mother and my window love letter and have fun with her friends laughing at it all and imagining my torture at her weChats. I won't be checking in and won't be deleting her and won't be blocking her and won't be texting her. I'm sure I'm not the only one of us that sees that in all the 100s of pictures on her posts the only one where she looks alive and happy and flushed is with me.

Thanks for the archer metaophor I'm letting go of the tail as we speak

[Insom]

A couple of thoughts . . .

I hear you've assessed yourself as someone with a secure attachment style.  How about hers?

I communicated when she started 'distancing' (well before there was any of this "conflict") and when she continued to distance I ended it. She did not want that.

Would it be fair to say that her wants/needs mattered more in the relationship?

[1stTimer]

A couple of thoughts . . .

I hear you've assessed yourself as someone with a secure attachment style.  How about hers?

Would it be fair to say that her wants/needs mattered more in the relationship?

Well I've *been* assessed with that online test as one. I get that there are issues that trigger me as well and I; not the Rock of Gibraltar at all times

I don't know about her. I really don't know anymore.  One thing that realllllly started to get me hooked was that she was so giving and took such good care of me.  Examples include at the big dinner with her friends she smoothly extracated me from the "Michael! Ganbie!" as the male guests tried to get me drunk, she sent a link to her friend about my technology to see if he could help w/o my asking, her expressed deep concern for my big meeting including going to Church to pray for a morning, not being able to sleep with worry and a dozen small things she'd do when we were together to take care of me.  The millions of things I told the last girl who insisted I "court her" were the things that make a man want to. So no it would not be fair to say that her wants/needs mattered first, what really turned me on about the whole thing was she seemed like the exact kind of parnter I dreamed of.

I DO think it turned out her need to protect herself became more important than protecting me for sure. If that is what is happening.

And I treated her with kids gloves because I bought the whole 'first man I've wanted to be with since my divorce a year ago even though many men courted" as I thought it spoke of a simpler woman wiht less experience in the world who needed some space and TLC. I bought the whole "I am still friendly with my husband he just wanted a small life I wanted a bigger one" as meaning she was a more cloistered woman looking to explore the world. I did not get she was this ferarri driving, gucci strutting, jet setter. I even asked her on our first really beaituful roofdeck date when she said she was a school teacher "where did a school teacher get such great interest and taste in fashion" as she sat there in a $5000 dollar dress and diamond earings. Stupid me...

So I have no real take on her attachment style. She seem(ed) extremely giving and caring in a way I've experienced only once in my life. thus the great surprise at her utter disregard towards the end of my feelings. As I see these pictures (I assume that I'm meant to) I realize I have no idea who I was with or what happened.

[1stTimer]

You know Insom, I've been told my replies can come off as invalidating or combative and if you experienced either as that I apologize. I deeply appreciate you taking the time to relate to what I'm saying and give me some feedback. My frustration is with the hugely confusing situation with what turns out to be the second real love of my life and what I thought and felt for all intents and purposes like this astonishing connection that transcended language.  Thank you again for taking the time to pitch in and for your input.

[Skip]

Stay cool,1T    This feels disappointing, I'm sure. But what is it? Do you know?  And has she done anything wrong or of bad character here? From what you are saying, it doesn't sound like it. It sounds more like disappointment... .

As I understand your situation, the two of you are broken up. You did it. Is that not correct? Your last day together, you walked away and blocked her on social media. Her follow-up was to shift from "come to Chengdu", to "I need space". Then there was a tense exchange with her translator/friend.

There has not yet been any meaningful discussion regarding the issues or the future status of the relationship.

These are very clear statements that things are off at the moment.

Yes, she gave you social media access, but that has a practical element (text is messaging can be a $1.00 for a send/receive). And yes, she said she'll miss you (in an ambiguous tense), but that doesn't mean issues have resolved and you are back in a committed relationship. This just means she is still keeping lines of communication open and there is a possibility of reconciliation... .

I think, based on conversations yesterday (see below) your expectations of her right were very high (that she is powerfully in love with you). In that context, this looks awful - but is that the proper context.

So you are pretty sure that her feelings for you are so powerful that she fears them emotionally (fear of abandonment/fear of vulnerability), or she fears a relationship with you would be detrimental in some way (professional, family) and that the inconsistent actions that you witnessing are her in an internal struggle, vacillating between the pull of her heart and the power of her defenses. You breaking up with her, the walk away (and social media blocking) at your last meeting, the 1/2 truths comments, and tussling with the translator friend are not helping the situation, but in the larger scheme of things, they are secondary/minor - and she likely realizes, deserved.

I have tried ending this gracefully a number of times. I got a lot of heat here... .

... .I think the challenge you got was not to "break up to be heard". Breaking up should be reserved for breaking up only, not as a way to evoke a reaction from the other party.  Breaking up can really damage the core of a relationship. Save it for when you are done.  

[1stTimer]

Stay cool,1T    This feels disappointing, I'm sure. What is it?  And has she done anything wrong or of bad character here. You have already been out on a date with another women.

As I understand your situation, the two of you are broken up. Is that not correct? Your last day together, you walked away and blocked her on social media. Her follow-up was that she needed "space". Then there was a tense exchange with her translator/friend.

There has not yet been any meaningful discussion regarding the issues or the future status of the relationship.

Yes, she gave you social media access, but that has a practical element (text is messaging can be a $1.00 for a send/receive). And yes, she said she'll miss you (in an ambiguous tense), but that doesn't mean issues have resolved and you are back in a committed relationship. This just means she is still keeping lines of communication open and there is a possibility of reconciliation... .

I think, based on conversations yesterday (see below) your expectations of her right now are very high (that she is powerfully in love with you), and in that context this would feel like betrayal. But is that context correct? You walking away and blocking social media. Her saying she needs space. These are very clear statements that things are off at the moment.


... .I think the challenge you got was not to "break up to be heard". Breaking up should be reserved for breaking up only, not as a way to evoke a reaction from the other party.  Right?  

Hi Skip let me start here; I do not break up to be heard. I need to clarify this because it has been said before. I did NOT break up with her in October to "be heard". I did it because after 2 1/2 weeks it felt very much like the September might have been BS (it was very over the top) and with 3 weeks left there was little reason to pursue it and most definitely did not want to keep putting my heart on the line. In other words, protecting myself as I should have followed through with and as she WAS doing. And should have let me. Yes, I was conflicted on wanting to but I meant it when I did it. I did not do that with the other girl either. I'd like to get this straight as it keeps recurring as a theme about my behavior which is not accurate.

What I said to her was true and direct and gracious; you said you wanted something committed and not casual yet you are treating it casually. I don't want to give my heart to something that is casual because I have  heart too. So I'm going to wish you the best time in your remaining weeks, a safe flight and I am so happy to have spent tome with you.

Something like that. It wasn't meant to 'elicit' it was meant to protect myself from exactly what happened. And she could have had the grace to just say "Ok I get it, this might be a good idea, I'm doing the same thing good luck, maybe when come back or maybe we can keep in touch" bla bla bla.

I don't think she is my girlfriend. I don't think it is betrayal if she sees someone else. I btw went on a date after the umpteenth come-together-push-apart. After keeping my heart open and 100% true to her for weeks when it was clear she might have not been doing so while encouraging me to. So I met a girl had a great conversation and kicked myself for not asking her out the first time. XL had flown out of my life with a bs letter from her friend and a 'Tell your mother I love her'.  All I really got out of that date is that even with a 7 hour uninterupted amazing conversation all I could think is "I haven't had a 7 MINUTE conversation with XL yet my connection was 7,50000x more than I'm feeling now". It just confirmed the connection.

It isn't that she might be on a date. It is that she is clearly starting to reveal herself as an entirely different woman than she presented. Which would give lie or at least pause to everything else she said. I was dating a 'I'm a Chinese girl we don't just have sex you have to be my boyfriend" and "I have not wanted to be with any  man since my divorce a year ago despite many opportunities I chose you" crap. I was with a childhood education school teacher who had an ex-husband who wanted a small life while she wanted a larger one.

That is very different woman than I am seeing on her weChat and explains her behavior. I was seeing conflicted with her first serious/intimate relationship in years finally meeting a man who knew how to treat and care for a woman.

I don't know who she is now. This woman isn't taking time and space for ME. She never was. I have no idea what she was doing the 4-6 weeks when there was presumably "nothing to worry about" and "no issue between us" and "you come to me in Chengdu" but it wasn't pining over me. She isn't in Chengdu even thinking about me. She just has a line open should she ever need whatever fix I provided. MAYBE she wants to see if I make my biz work out. But I doubt that.

This was an act. Or am I to believe this woman who has jet set event in 3 continents truly found me so awe-inspiring and life-changing and never met anyone who made her so happy? I didn't take her out to Michelin Restaurants in her gowns. I cooked for her in her courtyard. I'm supposed to believe in a year of travellng the world and skyscraper ballrooms and caviar dreams and karaoke dance nights the onnnnnnnnly man she wanted to be with intimately or romantically was me? I mean dude I give myself some credit but not that much. That is the kind of line a guy might give a woman to get in her pants, no idea why it was needed on me. I'd have gone to her apartment from the roofdeck after two bottles of wine if she said "look this is a one night thing just so you know". Pretty sure she knew that.

This makes this all words. And it paints an entire new light on the weeks apart. And it paints an entire new light on what "I need time and space" mean.

And no I don't think it is the $1 per text. I don't think a woman with $1500 shoes cares about spendng $49 texting me next month. Or just not answered my texts. I'm gone remember? She didn't block me from her social media please remember I EXITED from it. I CHOSE to not be part of her media or to communicate with her there. It is a pretty powerful statement to invite someone back in

She wanted me back on weChat. She could have just ignored my texts for the next 2 weeks and... voila! ... .there goes the NY Summer Fling guy what was his name again?

I get it. I'm on a string again. The only difference is this time we don't pretend we're in a relationship when we are not.

I think the woman lied about who she was at her CORE. I think she lied about where she is in her life. About the kind of life she leads, about what intimacy and sex and relationships mean. I think she lied about what I meant and we meant.

I think clearly we have NOT been in a relationship or bf/gf for months if ever, despite her making it clear it is what she wanted and the only way to be together. Man I can kick myself for even buying in having to explain no I don't have a lot of girlfriends, no I am NOT a player, no I don't want to be with anyone else.

So to clarify my clarification: it isn't that I think she is "cheating". I think it is she lied about who she was and her values and her lifestyle. And I think she WANTS me to see it. Do you know how I know? Because she could have just gone underground and then contacted ME on weChat when and if she wanted.

For the record I will say that the pictures with me she looks nothing like any of the other pictures I've seen; not in the gilded gowns but smiling and glowing and happy.  Either that's my imagination or true. If it is true she can figure it out but I'll say my heart has so many walls up now I don't even know if it matters. I can't see ever looking at her the same way again and all those ways she loved being treated came precisely from my honoring her and who she was and beleiving it deserved the utmost respect and caring. Yeah she is pretty and smart but you know what? I'm going to the Opera at Lincoln Center tonight and then the Wine Bar after. I'll see 250 women just like that and speak to 10 at the bar. Why would I wait for her if she was not who she said and we did not have what she said? How does 6 months and 7,5000 miles justify her then?

[1stTimer]

BTW decided to not reply to her "Thank you so much. I'll miss you" before this all happened, I was on the fence. The best I could come up with was

 

But decided against even that. She didn't give me much for all the hoops I jumped through on her invitation back in or my explanations at her request about what the text meant. Thank you so much for... .what? Explaining? Saying that the night was amazing? Telling her I spent an hour practicing "I'll miss you so much?" Feeling I'd lost her after the special "Come to me in Chengdu"? Accepting her invitation? Saying I'll miss you so much? Our time together? WHAT?

So I figured, before I even saw this, the best bet might just be some real radio silence. IF it is true that with all the access to everything in the world she has she REALLY felt the way she and her friends say and REALLY still considered a relationship with me despite all she can have and all of our challenges, she can figure that out on her own and figure a way back to me. Again, pretty sure if she does I won't be here.

[1stTimer]

As I understand your situation, the two of you are broken up. You did it. Is that not correct? Your last day together, you walked away and blocked her on social media. Her follow-up was to shift from "come to Chengdu", to "I need space". Then there was a tense exchange with her translator/friend.

Clarification and why I called that a 1/2 truth; she did not "shift" from "Come to Chengdu" to "I need space".  Her friend told me (as if it was his take on their conversation as she boarded the plane) that she had BEEN in that place for quite awhile. In other words while telling me "Come to" and "nothing is wrong" and "you have nothing to worry about" she had already decided to not risk getting closer (thus not BEING with me) so as not to leave in pain. Her "time and space" decision had come weeks ago.

I didn't walk away and block her for no reason. I did so because her behavior relected the entire last last month; pulling me in then putting up walls. That hurts after awhile. If I described doing that to her or anyone else here I'd be called on it. If I described all the things she did as my actions I be excorciated here.

So to keep that part clear; I didn't walk away from her and cause a shift from being together to space. I walked away after she pulled yet another painful walk into my heart and walk back out of it.

And I'll tell you what; if I'd just swallowed that dinner, smiled and kissed her good night into her car on her way to pick up her 'business associates' she'd be doing exactly now what she is doing now. I have not entered into her decisions on what to do or not do. The goal clearly has and is to keep me available and hooked.

I am more than curious now to see what happens if my deal comes through.

[1stTimer]

There has not yet been any meaningful discussion regarding the issues or the future status of the relationship.

But there was. There was a whole 3 hour translation about whether we wanted and had a special relationship we wanted to continue. The sticking point of which was "she needs to meet your mother" before she could make such a momentous decision. Thus her "utter joy" at meeting her, at my introducing her, at her loving her, and the seal of approval being her "You come to me in Chengdu" i.e. "thank you for introducing me to your mother which I said I needed to do before deciding. I decided. You come to be with me in my home". I didn't make that up.

That is where his whole text is BS.

Anyway. I'll stop boring myself and everyone else with this. Putting on my suit. Going to the Opera .Going to meet a nice pretty American woman and drop this one as it was not who or what I thought.

[Skip]

But there was. There was a whole 3 hour translation about whether we wanted and had a special relationship we wanted to continue. The sticking point of which was "she needs to meet your mother" before she could make such a momentous decision.

Yes. That was a few weeks ago. You broke up again after the meet with your mom.

I didn't walk away and block her for no reason. I did so because her behavior relected the entire last last month; pulling me in then putting up walls. That hurts after awhile.

If it hurt enough to break it off (that's a personal call) then this makes sense to break up. Breaking up is not a way to express disapproval or to motivate someone to step up - that it a toxic thing - healthy people will run from someone that does that. Breaking up is what you do when you are done.

You broke up twice in the last month because you felt she was not putting enough into the relationship - not living up to what she said she wanted.It was your call - right or wrong or inbetween - it's done. Now it's over.

You are living your life. You went out with someone else. She is living her life.

The door is still cracked open for a possible/maybe reconciliation... .but you are not yet at the point of even talking about it... .and its not a given that day will ever come. She has some thinking to do.  Do you want to close that door? If so, block her on weChat and it will be forever done.

The bottom line is that there is no negative or punitive action that will improve this. And given that you already did the "flowers and candy" recovery after breaking up late last month, the next step is not obvious.

[1stTimer]

Breaking up is not a way to express disapproval or to motivate someone to step up - that it a toxic thing - healthy people will run from someone that does that. Breaking up is what you do when you are done.

So not matter how many times I tell you I did not do that you are going to tell me I am? I did not. I did not do that with the last girl.

The bottom line is that there is no negative or punitive action that will improve this.
[/quote]
And I don't use negative or punitive actions to improve things. This is like being the middle child with a mom who has a favorite one. No matter what I do I'm "bad" and no matter what she does she is "good". Invite me back into her WeChat when she doesn't want me in her life but wants the OPTION to contact me and knowing she will post pics of her life isn't because she is horridly selfish, it is because she wants to save $1 per text while she drives her $290K car around for $50k shopping trips?

If I did ANY of this I'd be a s*** and be called on it.

If I posted here I went to China, made this girl think she was the second coming, then got 'scared' the last month and decided to distance myself but kept telling her nothing was wrong AND had all my friends meet her to tell her how amazing I was while I was distnacing myself and likely seeing other women I'b ke crucififed here. No one would excuse it.

If she FINALLY after weeks of my making her feel confused and unwanted broke up with me and instead of coming clean I kept the charade up just in CASE I changed my mind I'd be excorciated. By you.

If I told this Chinese girl I'd pretended to think was the Answer to My Life that the thing I needed to decide whether to contine this as a Serious Relationship was to meet her mother, knowing full well what "meet your mother" means in CHINA, then went and treated her mother like my long list own mother, practically cried about how happy I was, cornered her in the kitchen and said to this girl who professed her love (to whom I had earlier) "I am so happy. You introdiced me to your mother. Come live with me in the US" when I DID NOT WANT THAT I'd be horrid. Inexcusable. There would be nothing she did to excuse it.

If I made her feel so loved and wanted I kept texting her until 3am about how moved I was abnout meeting her mother, how much I wanted her to come LIVE WITH ME IN THE US, and invited her, after 6 weeks of keeping her confused and unwanted to have dinner "just you and me  and I can't wait for you to be in the US" KNOWING how it would make her feel but not reallu wanting it I'd have 2000 posts skewering me.

If she showed the next day walking on air which is the only way she could possibly feel and I shut her down, acted aloof and disinterested adter she just made such a huge gester to show me what I meant to her and I PRETENDED IT DID TO ME TOO, then called a call 1/2 through dinner and gave her a brush off I'd probably be banned for the board. No one would tlel me "well totally get it man, she had a chance to show how strong and together she was but when you shut her down she acted all "sullen" no wonder you dont want her".

If I flew back home having some Americna friend give her some BS about how I decided a month ago we had to cool our jets but never told her I'd be reamed for not being honest with her and just taking care of my feelings.

If, after smartly getting rid of me from wechat and her life and my flying home I insisted she get BACK on wechat simply because I wanted to save $1 on 5 texts to get some clarification and have her on beck and call in case I decided I wanted another go round this woman who loved me and was uterly confused and bereft knowing full well I didn't recirprocate and would be posting pics of me at events with all sorts of women I'd be inexcusably cruel and likely no one on this board, having been through their own pwBPD events would forive me.

None of this helps Skip. It SHORT CIRCUITS Me. It makes me accept unacceptably cruel behavior from other people WHILE questioing my own sanity. I get it I'll be BANNED again for questioning the wisdom of "the board" and for not being "collegiate". asking me to accept what has occured here as acceptable and takng respinsibility for the outcome when my reactions were not only NORMAL they were beyond paitent and accepting doesnt help me and could not possibly.

There is a reason this woman and the last felt so utterly safe and happy and protected. It is because I take their needs and fears and hopes and desires and cherish them. I expect a modicum in return and making me feel like after having them pissed on there is something wrong with ME doesn';t help me and doesnt' help any future women. It hurts me and it hurts them.

Feel free to delete and ban. It is for the best.

[1stTimer]

Yes. That was a few weeks ago. You broke up again after the meet with your mom.

Right. After she took the time to meet me, tell me we WERE special, insist meeting my mom was the sticking point, met my mome, made it life-changing and essentialy told me 'ok we are good to go' and then treated me like poop the next day. Oh right. It was my reaction to being treated like poop after putting my mother's heart and home on the line to give this woman peace of mind about us and me that was the issue. She was hideous. If she was not hideous she was terrified. And at 54 didn't have the guts or honesty to own it. AND can't just walk away still needs me on her hook. No one on the planet can justify this nor can anyone make me into the bad guy. You'd think.

[Skip]

No one on the planet can justify this nor can anyone make me into the bad guy. You'd think.

1T, it's not about you or her being a bad guy. It's about a 90 day relationship that started off with intensity and the fell apart in the last 30 days. She has pulled back. You broke up with her twice over it. These are facts.

This might have been different if she explained things better or if she made herself more available, but she didn't. Pulling back like this in the final 4 weeks before leaving the county for six months is a relationship killer.

You responded by breaking up which is also relationship killer.

You then tried to put things back together and the two of you agreed to have a "meet the family". That went well, but a day later, she was distant and left early - not something one does just before leaving the county for six months if they want to keep a relationship going. You responded by breaking up a second time - not something one does just before someone leaves the county for six months if they want to keep a relationship going.

The suggestion that has been made to you on a number of occasions is that if you are hoping any relationship will recover (which you have hoped for the last 4 weeks) do not breakup - it only makes matter worse. This is something you do. This is a simple life lesson and I'm not sure why it upsets you so much.

Right now the two are broken up. This last week you meet up with a girl at a bar and went on a date with her. If you two clicked, you'd be seeing her. You had no thoughts whatsoever that this was violating any obligation you have to XL. XL apparently feels the same in that she has no obligation to manage her social life around the relationship the two of you had. You both have been out of day-to-day contact for a month now.

Right now you are outraged over a photo she posted. You are angry at the clothes she is wearing. You are upset that she has an expensive car. One day you are saying the relationship is so intense for her she fears it. The next day, you say she is scamming you and your mother and seeing other guys.

You gotta get a hold of yourself, man. Get your feet planted in reality. 

[1stTimer]

The suggestion that has been made to you on a number of occasions is that if you are hoping any relationship will recover (which you have hoped for the last 4 weeks) do not breakup - it only makes matter worse. This is something you do. This is a simple life lesson and I'm not sure why it upsets you so much.

It upsets me so much because the repeated accusation INVALIDATES me. That I use breakups to 'motivate' behavior is entirely incorrect yet over and over and over and over and over you tell me that is what I did AND cast it as a if not THE primary reason things went wrong.  Removing herself emotionally and physically to distance herself and protect herself, without telling me while actively making sure I believe just the opposite in case she still wants me is not toxic. My breaking up after running out of ways to ask and being treated with extraordinary disrespect and unkindness is toxic though. I'm not explaining what happened again because even if I had God come down with pictures and videos and agreed he made this all happen the way it did, you'd tell me my behavior was toxic and caused this break-up. For the very last time; I did not break up with her to get her to act any way. I was tired and hurt of being canceled and made to feel unwanted by a girl who pracitcally begged me for a relationship and did everyting in her power to make me she feel she wanted it more than anything. There was nothing left to do. She did not want to take, she wanted to insist it was all ok, yet she did not want to be with me or near me and I was not planning on asking over and over and getting hurt over and over for another 3 weeks by a woman leaving in 3 weeks. My break-up and the way I handled it was not toxic by any measure or description. It was SMART. And well handled. And gracious.

This last week you meet up with a girl at a bar and went on a date with her. If you two clicked, you'd be seeing her

Er we DID click. And all I could think was I don't want her despite the 7 hour conversation that was 6 hours and 54 minutes longer than any I'd had with XL. Why did I go out on a date Skip? Because I'm unfaithful? I went out on a date after 6 weeks of being put in a box without affection or sex or a date by a girl who told me she wanted a future with me and kept insisting nothing changed yet was unavailable to me. Who flew out of my life while her friend sent me a letter suggesting she had exited the relationship weeks ago (with all that implied) but simply had not told me anything but nothing is wrong come to chengdu yes it is serious I need to meet your mother first I am so happy I met your mother come to me in Chengdu. Not sure what part of that is not clear. I went out with a girl basically on a 'f this why am I being true to this woman who has likely not been while asking me to the whole time'. It was one of her PRIME fears, that I would sleep around and be with other women and even though I do not I was critically aware of not engaging other women for weeks out of respect for this apparantley simple woman just falling in love for the first time after years of marriage.

Right now you are outraged over a photo she posted. You are angry at the clothes she is wearing. You are upset that she has an expensive car.

But you clearly understand that it is not the clothes and the car that bother me right? It is that she clearly misrepresented to me the kind of woman she was which is how she got what she wanted from me. That woman in those photos is not who she presented, it is not the sweet school teacher trying to learn 'business', it is not the 30 year marriage you first man I've wanted come be with me in chengdu woman. It makes me question everything we had, eveyrthing she said, everything she was and everything I loved. Surely you get I don't care if she has an expensive car and clothes right?

If I dated some girl in China, made her think we had some amazing thing I've never found before, acted like a simple man who wanted a simple love, flew out of her life and then invited her to my weChat knowing she loved me and suddenly she saw me on yachts and with models and strutting up 5th Avenue with other hot buddies she'd know she was played.

One day you are saying the relationship is so intense for her she fears it. The next day, you say she is scamming you and your mother and seeing other guys.

Yes Skip. Because. The. Situation. Makes. No. Sense. Yes i get you can draw a graph and show it does. It does not. Unless of course you use my 'toxic' breakups to explain her behavior. You cannot. Nothing that happens makes any sense. It does not add up. You can explain away the mother night and you can explain away her behavior on date night (especially if you once again make me the heavy). My behavior is BECAUSE nothing makes sense.

I said she fears it becaue it is so intense since it is either that or she is FOS. Her friend said she feared it because it was so intense (er you dont say 'cut it off before you got to 'cant live without each other' if it is NOT intense and you don';t say the things she did if it IS not). He also said she was scamming me.

You can make a case for either one because the situation is so utterly confusing.

I get you don't buy her feeling were so intense and I get you think my behavior was 'toxic' and caused this.

You gotta get a hold of yourself, man. Get your feet planted in reality.  

I cannot get my feet in reality when someone keeps trying to change the reality to fit their theory.

Reality is not that I pushed this sweet girl who was "on the fence' about me away with toxic behavior "any healthy person would run from".

Reality is not that she showed up to the dinner she invited me to hoping to see strong 1sttimer but when I got "sullen" (which I did not and never suggested) because she sat like a log at the dinner she invited met o, our first together in weeks and last for months, and then called for an Uber 1/2 through she got turned off by my reaction. That is just classic 'if the facts dont fit the theory change the facts'.

Reality is not that upon returning to China the moment I reached out she jumped and invited me BACK to weChat to save $1 a text. THAT is 'if the facts don't fit the theory change the facts'.

You don't believe she had these amazing feelings for me and ran and protected herself and did it in a very selfish and hurtful way.

You don't believe she scammed me or is scamming me.

No matter what i say you'll squeeze this into your theory; this girl was mezzo-mezzo about me, I blew it being reactive, she gave me another chance, I blew it by being reactive. Now she is in China but wants to have access to me, the man who told her he loved her, available on weChat with access to her social life, because she is a kind woman who might one day want to reach out to me and might not. What a centered sweet-heart she is, what a reactive jerk I am. No wonder we're not together.





[/quote]

[1stTimer]

This last week you meet up with a girl at a bar and went on a date with her. If you two clicked, you'd be seeing her. You had no thoughts whatsoever that this was violating any obligation you have to XL. XL apparently feels the same in that she has no obligation to manage her social life around the relationship the two of you had.

XL apparently felt no obligation to manage her social life around the relationship we were having the whole time we had it, the relationship that she asked for and made clear had to be exclusive and important.  Do you ou understand that is the whole crux of the situation? That while feeling no obligation to do so and removing herself from it she continued to actively make me believe we still had one and nothing was wrong? That likely while breaking date after date and making sure I was not in her bed she was dating others and others in her bed? While telling me how extraordinary I was, having her friends tell me how important I was, inviting me to come LIVE with her in her HOME.

And yet I honored my "obligation" to this woman through that all, I did so after my "break-up" when she insisted nothing was wrong. I honored my 'obligation' through the whole farce including the dinner with my mother she made some unearthly important. I honored it until the day she flew out of my life w/o a word (except tell your MOTHER I love her) and had her friend explain, like the coward she is and while she boarded her plane, that she had in fact been checked out of the relationship for weeks with all that implies. So don't say I "had no thoughts whatsoever" because those are ALL I had and I honored her requests and her need for exclusivity and the importance of the relationship through all of her games. And then sat at a bar in pain trying to wrestle with what i just learned while she flew 7,500 miles away and a pretty smart girl started talking to me and I FINALLY got it that she had not been true to me or honest with me and asked myself why I should not ask another woman out.

So it puts a decidedly negative spin on her inviting me back into weChat when she lands back home after safely basically letting me know she had not been true to me the whole time she asked the same from me, just so she could NOT communicate any texts but give me access to her social life wouldn't you say? It is classic insult to injury and no amount of explaining can justify.  "Thank you very much. I'll miss you" are meaningless words to a man who just replied to your concerns on being understood more and for clarification on a text which you gave in detail with caring. They are yet more "you tell me how you feel, you show me you you feel, I'll give you some stock phrases in return". She wants me to see her life.

TODAY she updated; the girl who said to me "Come visit me in the Beauitful city of Chengdu" and then I replied in my letter "Yes I want to come be with you in the Beautiful City of Chengdu" posted a picture of herself (looking decidedly unglamourous and not very happy) and then dozens of pictures with the caption "The Beautiful City of Chengdu". i guess that wasnt for me either... .

[Skip]

1T, your angry/hurt.  Hang in there,

[1stTimer]

1T, your angry/hurt.  Hang in there,

Thank you Skip and decide anger/hurt still appreciative of your efforts.

Just going radio-silent let her figure out what our truth is on her own. w/o a doubt today's post is for me. Exactly what she always said to me, the post in in English. Close up pic of her and then the city. I'm not biting.

[Skip]

1T,  asked on everything you have said about this girl, it's highly unlikely that she sleep around or that she is playing games with you or your family. It's contrary to everything you said Friday.

I want to suggest that what is making this difficult is that you have/had very high expectations for how she feels about you and it fell short and you had a huge reaction.

If you are still interested in her and wanting to explore a possible recovery of the breakup, I'd respond to the photo to see if you can engage her.

If your really think she is a lying cheater - then it makes sense to walk away.

[1stTimer]

1T,  asked on everything you have said about this girl, it's highly unlikely that she sleep around or that she is playing games with you or your family. It's contrary to everything you said Friday.

I don't think that deep down there is just a ton of confusion about her stated and obvious feelings and her actions

I want to suggest that what is making this difficult is that you have/had very high expectations for how she feels about you and it fell short and you had a huge reaction.

I get that is your position you've made it clear implicitly and otherwise; she did not feel the way I thought or hoped and I got mad and lashed out. Again with feet on the ground having experienced her in person reacting to me, what every person I met said to me through her and about her, the dozens and dozens of texts I got from her, the thing she said before bed and in bed and after bed, my mother's house and her simply not letting go of this I do not feel I've had 'expecations' or 'hopes' I've had experiences of her feeling just that. I didn't fall for HER and then hope she felt the same. I liked the hell out of her it was her intensity that fueled all of this. So I'm not some guy who fell for a girl and hoped she felt the same.

If you are still interested in her and wanting to explore a possible recovery of the breakup, I'd respond to the photo to see if you can engage her.

I am not trying to engage her anymore. I did my part. If this is real she'll find her own way to make it to me. I don't need any more obtuse messages. She reached out to re-engage me on weChat, made a pointed request (please try harder to understand me) and asked a pointed question about the text to which I replied in depth. I got a 'Thank you very much I'll miss you'. She'll have to start stepping forward now. If she DID post the "The Beautiful City of Chengdu" pics for me (who else? it's in English for God's sake. it's her own city. her friends and relatives all know what Chengdu looks like the live there. they speak Chinese. It's "our phrase". It starts with a picture of her looking in the camera) then I'm not taking the bait. I keep taking the bait. Let her act like a 54 year old international business woman and figure it out man.

If your really think she is a lying cheater - then it makes sense to walk away.

I don't. I think there is... .something. Still married? Ex making it hard? Family doesn't want her getting involved with poor American? Thinks I'm after her money? Not allowed to date white men or she loses her inheritance? I don't know Skip. There is something there and it is not 'her feelings don't align with my hopes'. I know they do.

Let's see what she does with her feed and her ability to text. Let's see if she is for real. If her feelings are what I am 90% sure they are she'll make a move at some point. If they are not she'll play games. If her feelings are there and she is unable to for any reason do anything about it either from circumstantial issues or emotional ones, I'm not fighitng those AND 7,500 miles and Mandarin.

I sent the pics of us to my female friend, that is the first thing she said; she is glowing with you. She can remember that feeling or not, a dozen people saw it and said it. I'm just going to try to get centered and deal with any pics she decides to throw up there and deal with it.

As a PS I see one subtle way 'in'; instead of texting her I can simpy 'like'  the Chengdu photos in her status udates, even comment e.g. "As beautiful as I was told" as you might for a Facebook update.

I'm also going to start posting my own updates. For instance Thursday is the Thanksgiving Day parade which you can see from my window (20 feet from the park). I'll keep on her radar the same way. I'm sure she's got the same pics I do of us let her remember... .

[1stTimer]

On the 'you had very high expectations for how she feels about you and it fell short".  They weren't expectations as much as actions and communications from both her and her friends/family. It was her sudden reversal and confusing behaviors that cause my reaction. Since this thread has been all over the place I'll consolidate here to clarify wherer those 'expectations" come from:

Just a small sample of the texts (from just before her pull-back):

"Dear, don't be nervous, I believe you are the greatest, no matter what happens I'll stand by you! Good luck to you my dear! Dear please remember I support you forever! You'll always be lucky! No matter what happens I will always be there for you!"

2am: "Dear I cannot sleep all night, I am worried about your meeting!"

"I miss you. I am so sad to be leaving. You come to me in the beautiful city of Chengdu?"

"I am so happy to know you I don't even want to ever leave NY!"

"Today I can't be with you because I spend the day in Church to pray for your success"

"I am so sad because I am leaving you. Will you come to me in Chengdu?"

"Dear I could not sleep worrying about your meeting"

"Yes I'm really happy to be with you for another month"

"I'm so happy that we can be together for another month"

"I'm really happy to be with you for another month"

"I'd like your advice, I hope you can give me a plan for how to spend this month"

"You are not there for me" "What do you mean?" "I just mean I miss you. I just mean I miss you"

And in person:

"That plane in the sky is flying to Chengdu. 1T is on it coming to be with me"

"I love you I love you I love you I love you I love you"  (whilst making love)

"You like ME? Really? Really?"

"Why do YOU like ME?"

"You are the only man I have wanted to be with since my Divorce a year ago. There have been many men who wanted me. I chose you"

"You are an extraordinary Gentleman"

"You are a remarkable man"

"You are an amazing lover"

A dozen of her friends:
"You make her so happy. She says you do everything for her. Take such good care of her. Treat her so well. Make her so happy. She has never met such a great gentleman before"

"Did you know she prayed for hours for your meeting? Did you know she could not sleep or eat for two days worrying about your meeting? Do you see this text from her friend about not being able to help with your business? She wants you to know she DID ask but did not show you this bad news so it would not affect your mood for your meeting"

"Make sure you are serious about her and don't play with her feelings. She is serious about you and chose you from among many suitors. Be true to her or don't be with her"

And her translator, despite his later conflicting messages from whatever his agenda or hers:
"She agrees yes you have a very special relationship she wants to continue"

"It is very important in relationships like this to meet your parents you should not understimate just how important"

"Thank you both for trusting me to be the go-between given your relationship. I am so happy you both found each other so special and intimate"

Thus it is and was not me falling and hoping she felt the same, it was me almost coming along for the ride. Not to say I didn't like/fall for her too but it was this intense 'courtship' and the invitations to Chengdu and the repeated events with close friends that made clear her feelings to me. Note hope or expectations. Those were just for her actions... .

[Insom]

It sounds like, on an emotional level, you are strongly tuned in to communication signals you receive from her.  She expresses interest and you are over the moon . . . interested/engaged/in love.  She pulls back?  You feel confused - maybe angry or duped/hurt - and wonder if something nefarious is going on. 

Do you recall knowing what you wanted in a relationship before you met her?  What did/do you feel?  What is true for you independent of what she wants? 

[1stTimer]

It sounds like, on an emotional level, you are strongly tuned in to communication signals you receive from her.  She expresses interest and you are over the moon . . . interested/engaged/in love.  She pulls back?  You feel confused - maybe angry or duped/hurt - and wonder if something nefarious is going on.

I don't think 'nefarious' really entered my thoughts until the, what for me based on who and what she said she was, pictures when she got home.  And I think she expressed far more than "interest". I have women express interest more than a few times a year I know the difference. I became interested/engaged and approaching in love from our interactions, especially those with her close friends which were incredibly welcoming.

Do you recall knowing what you wanted in a relationship before you met her?  What did/do you feel?  What is true for you independent of what she wants?  

In fact exactly what she was displaying to me. A woman who has the same feelings about monogamy and the specialness of intimacy vs sleeping around or even one serial relationship after another. One who APPRECIATES being 'taken care of' by which I mean all the small things I did to make her feel special and safe and appreciated. One who reciprocates and can take care of me in return which she displayed in spades; when she so elegantly whisked me out of 'harms way' when her male friends were trying to Ganbei! me under the table, when she w/o being asked sent my site to her friend to see if he could help, when went to pray for me, couldnt' sleep with worry, experssed such support and interest. And a million other small things she would do to take care of me in return.  Even little things like when they were doing the 'Ganbie' she'd surreptitiously pour the large 8oz shot into a small 1oz glass w/o anyone noticing. Or at the texas bbq I made when I was talking w/o a word take the napking out of my hand and replace it with a clean one while I was talking to her friends. Likewise she liked all those small things too; when we went to Carnegie hall at intermission naturally the men's restroom line was much shorter than the woman's line. When I got out they were flashing the lights for people to seat but I waited for her even though she was the last woman out. she was very surprised and happy to see me waiting there to escort her down. I think these things were as special to her as the things she did to me and were the foundation (I believe) of our attraction.

That is ex-actly what I want from a relationship and is so hard to find. Not sure if you were around for the one that brought me here (my first in many many years so I was vulnerbale and ignored radar) but she (who was pursuing me) would always tell me how I needed to court her and I'd tell her "give me a reason to besides being female". This woman gave me all the reasons that make me want to.  And she has all the qualities I like' she is feminine and strong, she is independent but can accept being cared for. She'd make an astonishing partner because she is ambitious and diigent and smart.

I didn't just fall for her because of how I started to feel and I didn't just fall for her because of how she started to feel. I fell for her because she had the exact qualities I've ever hoped for.  And my guess from everything she said is I did for her.

[Insom]

Here's what I'm hearing about what you want in a relationship:  someone who values monogamy, is feminine, and is able to give and receive loving care and who possesses elegance/classiness.  These are lovely values and it's great you've been able to identify them! 

In addition, with her you also get:  exoticism; potential for international travel; potential to learn a new language; the hello/goodbye drama cycle that is characteristic of long-distance relationships; communication struggles; and distance (physical and cultural).  These are defining characteristics of the relationship you're in with her.  What do you think/feel about them?

[1stTimer]

Here's what I'm hearing about what you want in a relationship:  someone who values monogamy, is feminine, and is able to give and receive loving care and who possesses elegance/classiness.  These are lovely values and it's great you've been able to identify them!  

Thank you but let me add it is not just feminine and elegance/class. I want/value independence, strength, ambition as well. Finding a woman who combines those well is quite difficult.

In addition, with her you also get:  exoticism; potential for international travel; potential to learn a new language; the hello/goodbye drama cycle that is characteristic of long-distance relationships; communication struggles; and distance (physical and cultural).  These are defining characteristics of the relationship you're in with her.  What do you think/feel about them?

Exoticism, great

Travel, great.

New language and culture, great

Distance. I can live with it. I've never been someone who needs my partner 24/7. I like being independent and like if she is. I want someone I can trust emotionally/physically as much as she can trust me.

The drama of hello/goodbye? Not so sure yet. If it "just" means pain and then reuniting I can manage it. if it is like this each time I can't and I think there is more here than hello/goodbye cycle.

This will never work out if my own business does not take off which is pretty much now facing a binary outcome in the next 6 months. Even if she wanted it to be I'd essentially be a kept man. I don't want that at all. But if I can pull this off then we'd add a great component; two very successful people that enjoy the finer things in life and can afford to do it both separately or together. Gives me even more motivation to pull the deals in front of me out.